U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

[Xiahou]

Here are two pieces analyzing the "debate" each favoring a different candidate.
McCain Shines at Saddleback Forum
World's Apart
Both are worth looking at imo, but here was the most striking contrast between them:

Obama's world can be scarier. It's multicultural. It's realistic (yes, there is evil on the streets of this country as well as in other places, and a lot of evil has been perpetrated in the name of good). It's honest. When does life begin? Only the antiabortionists are clear on that. For the majority of Americans (who are pro-choice), it is "above my pay grade," in Obama's words, where there is no hard and fast line to draw on what's worth dying for, and where people of all faiths have to be respected.

Obama's response on abortion -- the issue that remains his largest obstacle to evangelical support -- bordered on a gaffe. Asked by Warren at what point in its development a baby gains "human rights," Obama said that such determinations were "above my pay grade" -- a silly answer to a sophisticated question. If Obama is genuinely unsure about this matter, he (and the law) should err in favor of protecting innocent life. If Obama believes that a baby in the womb lacks human rights, he should say so -- pro-choice men and women must affirm (as many sincerely do) that developing life has a lesser status. Here the professor failed the test of logic.

Also from the first piece, I thought this was one of the more succinct descriptions of the problem that the Obama campaign is facing:

For many evangelicals, the theoretical Obama -- the Obama of hope and unity -- is intriguing, even appealing. But this opinion is not likely to improve upon closer inspection of his policy views. Obama is one of those rare political figures who seems to grow smaller the closer we approach him. "I want people to know me well," said Obama at the forum. Among religious conservatives, that may not be an advantage.

[Lemur]

McCain Shines at Saddleback Forum

Wow, one of George W. Bush's speechwriters favors McCain over Obama. Shocking, I tell ya. And as for the "silly answer" about the determination of when life begins, there are other interpretations:

"Above my pay grade" is an expression of humility and submission to God: I don't purport to answer the question that belongs to God. He's trying to be folksy, coining a phrase akin to "the man upstairs." When someone says "the man upstairs," you don't start railing about how we're on the top floor, but that's because we know we're dealing with a folksy expression. People are too touchy on the subject of abortion to process the less common "above my pay grade" as an expression.

Obama may have thought that, in a church, talking to a pastor, with religion hovering around every question, listeners would understand that he was putting himself beneath God. But I didn't pick that up last night, Roger Kimball isn't picking it up, and, scanning the articles on the subject this morning, I'd say almost no one heard it as a religious statement, so we must judge "above my pay grade" as a rhetorical misfire. But we shouldn't say it's "insulting and mendacious."

So I take it you're all on board the Straight Talk Express now, Xiahou? Did they finally get to you?

-edit-

And a far more honest assessment of the evening, from a source even a Xiahou can love:

As far as the crowd is concerned, it was clear that McCain was the favorite. That was hardly a surprise; at a small gathering I attended a few years ago, someone asked Warren how many of his parishioners voted for John Kerry. He thought for a moment and said 15 percent. So the conservative Saddleback crowd, while happy to see Obama in their midst, was not going to be on his side. What they wanted was proof that John McCain was on theirs, and that’s what they got.

[PanzerJaeger]

I can arrange for a pack mule, Leemy...

[woad&fangs]

After seeing the "debate" I have to say that both did very well.

McCain came across as passionate, confident, conservative, and honest.

Obama came across as thoughtful, compassionate, humble, and christian.

[CountArach]

Obama came across as ...christian.

Which was 100% the best result he could have hoped for. How people in America still think he is Muslim is beyond me...

[Xiahou]

Wow, one of George W. Bush's speechwriters favors McCain over Obama. Shocking, I tell ya. And as for the "silly answer" about the determination of when life begins, there are other interpretations:

"Above my pay grade" is an expression of humility and submission to God: I don't purport to answer the question that belongs to God.

It's still a stupid answer. It's obvious that he was trying to say "only God knows"- and that's what's so stupid about his answer. If you don't know whether or not abortion is murder, how the hell can you support it? As the above critique said, if there is any doubt as to whether you're committing murder, how could you be in favor?


On a different note I heard, my governor, fast Eddie Rendell was on a local radio station and he said something that left me scratching my head. He was asked who he's going to vote for at the Democrat Convention- he said that even though he wants Obama to be president, he would vote for Hillary. Then, for some reason, he went on to say that no delegates (elected or super) are bound to any candidate in the roll call vote and he expected a few Obama delegates to vote Hillary. Why would he say that? Additionally, I don't see how the aforementioned roll call vote can be anything but a black eye for the Obama campaign- it's going to highlight how thin their win really was. Why did they agree to it in the first place?

Edit: Also, Rendell predicted Biden for the VP choice- although he said Hillary would be a better choice.

[CountArach]

It's still a stupid answer. It's obvious that he was trying to say "only God knows"- and that's what's so stupid about his answer. If you don't know whether or not abortion is murder, how the hell can you support it? As the above critique said, if there is any doubt, how could you be in favor?

As Obama said he believes that women make this choice after a great deal of thought and isn't that what it is all about? Maybe in McCain's opinion life begins at conception, but certainly not in my view, or that of millions of people like me. So surely it is up to the woman to make the moral decision, not a government to dictate its own moral beliefs?

[m52nickerson]

It's still a stupid answer. It's obvious that he was trying to say "only God knows"- and that's what's so stupid about his answer. If you don't know whether or not abortion is murder, how the hell can you support it? As the above critique said, if there is any doubt as to whether you're committing murder, how could you be in favor?

It was an honest answer. Many people who know that it is a womens right to choose struggle to reconcile that question.

After seeing the "debate" I have to say that both did very well.

McCain came across as passionate, confident, conservative, and honest.

Obama came across as thoughtful, compassionate, humble, and christian.

I agree with you, I think both did well.

[Lemur]

It's still a stupid answer.

Maybe it's a politically stupid answer, but intellectually and scientifically it's an honest answer. Defining what it means to be "alive" is only simple if you're stupid.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

It was an honest answer. Many people who know hypothesize/think/believe that it is a womens right to choose struggle to reconcile that question.

Fixed.

[Xiahou]

Maybe it's a politically stupid answer, but intellectually and scientifically it's an honest answer. Defining what it means to be "alive" is only simple if you're stupid.

Try this:

1. I don't know if abortion is murder, therefore we should err on the safe side and not allow it.
2. I don't know if abortion is murder, therefore it should be allowed.

Which makes more sense?
Obama, based on his answer, believes the second. I think that's monstrous.

[Redleg]

Well the DNC is in Denver in one week, it should be interesting to see how it goes. Should be an interesting spectal.

[m52nickerson]

Try this:

1. I don't know if abortion is murder, therefore we should err on the safe side and not allow it.
2. I don't know if abortion is murder, therefore it should be allowed.

Which makes more sense?
Obama, based on his answer, believes the second. I think that's monstrous.

Or to step into the land of realism;

The issue of fetal rights is a tough one, while a women has the right to abort a pregnancy, society also has a responsibility to protect pregnant women and there unborn children from harm.

[Lemur]

Xiahou, I take it from your absolutism that you are opposed to any sort of attempt to reduce the number of abortions, since that's "monstrous." Anything that does not completely end the practice of legal abortion, by your formulation, is "monstrous."

And by extension, anyone who does not subscribe to your formulation is "monstrous." I'm amazed you bother to be polite to all of these heathens and unbelievers and nunace-hugging latte drinkers.

To every complex question there is a fundamentalist with a simple, wrong answer.

Anyway, take the last turn on this one. We don't want to turn this into an abortion thread, not unless we're also prepared to bring gay marriage and gun rights into the mix.

Well the DNC is in Denver in one week, it should be interesting to see how it goes. Should be an interesting spectal.

You know what's sad? My mother actually makes up her mind based on what she sees at the party conventions. I keep telling her, "Mom, that's just political theater. It's a circus." But mothers are not required to listen to their whippersnappers.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Xiahou, I take it from your absolutism that you are opposed to any sort of attempt to reduce the number of abortions, since that's "monstrous." Anything that does not completely end the practice of legal abortion, by your formulation, is "monstrous."

And by extension, anyone who does not subscribe to your formulation is "monstrous." I'm amazed you bother to be polite to all of these heathens and unbelievers and nunace-hugging latte drinkers.

To every complex question there is a fundamentalist with a simple, wrong answer.

Life begins at conception or creation. This answer is not wrong. Life begins when it begins - not some time after it begins. Are there times when people can take the life of another? Yes. Do I believe that abortions have their place in a civil society? Yes, but only at a time of medical emergency or to save the life of the mother. If you want to prevent pregnancy use birth control or abstinence - not homicide.

Obama's answer was asinine.

His opinions on abortion are detestable and covered up only by his unwillingness to let anyone know them in this election.
link to description

[Devastatin Dave]

Jesus Lemur, come on. Even you can see Oboma dodged the question.

Obama must have some mind control skills to keep his minions in check.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Obama is one of those rare political figures who seems to grow smaller the closer we approach him.

Whoever said that is dumb--all political figures grow smaller the closer you approach them. The reason jefferson and washington are heroes is because we only know a little about them.

Try this:

1. I don't know if abortion is murder, therefore we should err on the safe side and not allow it.
2. I don't know if abortion is murder, therefore it should be allowed.

Which makes more sense?
Obama, based on his answer, believes the second. I think that's monstrous.

No, you're framing the question poorly. The question is "where does a baby gain 'human rights'. What obama said was he doesn't know the exact point--neither do I. But I still know it's not at conception, and it sure isn't after 2 months, so some abortions are still ok. Come on Xiahou, you should be able to distinguish between a 5 day old baby and 9 month old baby.

[Xiahou]

But I still know it's not at conception, and it sure isn't after 2 months, so some abortions are still ok.

Had Obama said that or something similar, he would've given a real answer- but no, he went with a weak non-answer. He could have said, for example, "I don't believe a baby should have human rights at conception, but after X months the issue is more cloudy and I'm uncomfortable with abortions after that point."- that would've been a real answer. Of course, he'd never do that because suggesting that a baby can't be aborted at any point before birth would upset the abortion fanatics in his base. So instead, he wimped out and didn't answer the question at all, or rather he said he doesn't know.

As I've said, if one really doesn't know if a fetus is human or not, it's morally reprehensible to say it's ok to terminate it- common decency suggests that you err on the side of human life. And that's the position Obama left himself with in claiming not to know while still supporting abortion.

Come on Xiahou, you should be able to distinguish between a 5 day old baby and 9 month old baby.

I can. And I also know both are human and should be treated as such.

Anyhow, I didn't bring this up to rehash the abortion debate- it was to illustrate how well McCain outperformed Obama at this event. Where McCain came off as direct and confident, Obama stammered and prevaricated. I suspect it will be the debates that will do the most damage to Obama's campaign. I also suspect his campaign knows this- it's why they agreed to the bare minimum of them.

[CountArach]

Anyhow, I didn't bring this up to rehash the abortion debate- it was to illustrate how well McCain outperformed Obama at this event. Where McCain came off as direct and confident, Obama stammered and prevaricated. I suspect it will be the debates that will do the most damage to Obama's campaign. I also suspect his campaign knows this- it's why they agreed to the bare minimum of them.

Actually I can see the attack adds the Dems will be running:
"If you earn $4.5 Million McCain says you aren't rich."

That was a serious mistake on McCain's part.

[Devastatin Dave]

Which was 100% the best result he could have hoped for. How people in America still think he is Muslim is beyond me...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=72667

Old school moon barker if I've ever seen one.

[KarlXII]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=72667

Old school moon barker if I've ever seen one.

Why should the average intellectual (not how I said intellectual) care if Obama was brought up Muslim or is Muslim? Does it make him a terrorist? Does it mean he can't govern? Why the should I care if he's Muslim, Christain, Jew or Zoroastrian?

[CountArach]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=72667

Old school moon barker if I've ever seen one.

The list of things I don't care about just increased by 1.

Also I don't get how a child can be any religion at all. They aren't old enough to make that decision. Even if this is true (Which I doubt) it does not mean that Obama ever believed in the basic tenets of Islam.

[Devastatin Dave]

Why should the average intellectual (not how I said intellectual) care if Obama was brought up Muslim or is Muslim? Does it make him a terrorist? Does it mean he can't govern? Why the should I care if he's Muslim, Christain, Jew or Zoroastrian?

Why can't he be hosest about his upbringing, whether it be muslim or a racist black theologen? He should be upfront with the good folks he wants votes from and show us his true self, not puff pieces from fawning media elites that crave European socialism within the good old US of A...
http://townhall.com/columnists/BurtP...arxist_brother

[CountArach]

Why can't he be hosest about his upbringing, whether it be muslim or a racist black theologen? He should be upfront with the good folks he wants votes from and show us his true self, not puff pieces from fawning media elites that crave European socialism within the good old US of A...
http://townhall.com/columnists/BurtP...arxist_brother

The only way I could express my thoughts at that article would get me banned from the site...

[KarlXII]

Why can't he be hosest about his upbringing, whether it be muslim or a racist black theologen? He should be upfront with the good folks he wants votes from and show us his true self, not puff pieces from fawning media elites that crave European socialism within the good old US of A...
http://townhall.com/columnists/BurtP...arxist_brother

Good ol' Snopes. Too bad the common folk don't read it more.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

[KarlXII]

The only way I could express my thoughts at that article would get me banned from the site...

The article had me laughing due to the fact that there was a "Country First" McCain ad next to it

[Devastatin Dave]

The list of things I don't care about just increased by 1.

Also I don't get how a child can be any religion at all. They aren't old enough to make that decision. Even if this is true (Which I doubt) it does not mean that Obama ever believed in the basic tenets of Islam.

Hey I somewhat agree about children and religion, but old Barry hasn't exactly been honest about his beliefs and upbringing. Read his books, there is some disturbing stuff in them. This guy isn't exactly fond of whites. I find it shocking that people get such a hardon for a dude that reads a great teleprompter but sounds like a retarded parot when asked any questions. He makes George Bush sound like Winston Churchill. Keep on praying to Obamamessiah, he'll deliver you, he's already healed Lemur from is objectional independent streak!!! (like there ever was one)

[Devastatin Dave]

The only way I could express my thoughts at that article would get me banned from the site...

I'm sure you could do a better job of expressing your thoughts than Obama has of expressing his beliefs and core values!!!

[KarlXII]

Hey I somewhat agree about children and religion, but old Barry hasn't exactly been honest about his beliefs and upbringing. Read his books, there is some disturbing stuff in them. This guy isn't exactly fond of whites. I find it shocking that people get such a hardon for a dude that reads a great teleprompter but sounds like a retarded parot when asked any questions. He makes George Bush sound like Winston Churchill. Keep on praying to Obamamessiah, he'll deliver you, he's already healed Lemur from is objectional independent streak!!! (like there ever was one)

I highly doubt that.

[KarlXII]

I'm sure you could do a better job of expressing your thoughts than Obama has of expressing his beliefs and core values!!!

Obvious troll is obvious.