The Curia

I second Edict 6.8 on the condition that it is a simple majority sentate vote, not a 3/4 vote.

Deciumus Cornelius Scipio enters the room. Having been busy talking too his old clientele, and setting up the first house, he has been out for a while. He sets a fast pace and pretends hes reading something so he doesnt have to talk to anyone, and secretly hopes noone even noticed him gone or coming in. After a while of being informed what has happened by his designated note taker, he rises to speak.

Ave noble senators! For too long I have been silent and now is the time to get what I have to say out there.

First, Its a travesty the House Licentia Proeliator has been temporary shutdown. I propose edict 6.9; that the house can be made official without the support of a Praetor, and merely a Questor. In this case Longos (potocello). I would also take this time to ask everyone to read the House Charter, simply to see what we are all about and maybe consider joining.

I agree on points 6.1-6.3 and will vote in support of them. Blasio, if you have need of my Overseer, then please take him along. He is more usefull with farms, ports and the like. With all my income vested into the Licentia house I have no need of him anymore. Consider it a gift, if you refuse it I will understand.

Legio V should be formed. Its commander should be selected by a vote. I personally want to see myself or Aemilus selected, if Aemilus voices that he wants control of the legion, I shall throw my support behind him.

Now on to the subject of Cotta. You must be feeling very special right now. I consider 6.5 too harsh, you has done nothing to deserve a humiliation like that. I do however, like 6.8. The very lands you conquered will be under your governance. Though that also seems like a humiliation instead of a simple change in position. Perhaps the issue of being granted a triumph is in order? I would second it and vote in support of it, but it seems like the other senators arent too fond of you.

Sicily, the land of greeks and poeni along with all sorts of pirates and wines. Legio III is in perfect position to spearhead the assault, and I think it should. A lightning attack should take place, with Legio IV in support. This should take place as soon as possible.

Deciumus sits down. Aware that his oratory method is more a series of bullets then the eloquent speeches of the other senators. While not fancy or necessarily convincing he hopes the other senators will appreciate the straightforward information.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by desert

.... He beckoned his assistant Quintus Sertorius over. For a fleeting second, Quintus thought he noticed a slight moistness in his liege's eyes, but as soon as Appius turned to him fully it was gone....

....I would like to denounce Caius Aurelius' supporters as being mere yes-men at best, and part of a conspiracy at worst....

---

Avlvs laughed loud out. "Didn't I warn you, dear fathers of the republic? Before this Senatorial Session took place, I predicted that certain senatores would denounce their political enemies, if they ran out of better arguments. And there you see it! I was right. I should really make an application as an Augur instead of fighting Rome's enemies."

Many senators laughed, Avlvs sat down and shook his head, still laughing. "My god, what a born fool", he thought.

I am willing to change my edict if anyone finds it to Harsh/leniant. however I think it should keep the 3/4 majority vote, as if it is not we could simply vote him out because we hate him, with a 3/4 than it means that he actually had to do something wrong.

"It's not yours, but HIS edict, that is way too harsh" Avlvs said, pointing at Appius Claudius

I prefer a simple majority. I do not believe that enough people here flat out hate him to vote him out without any wrongdoing. Also remember that it would be a majority of weighted votes.

you could be right, so how about this

Edict 6.8: after the Taking of Ambrakia, Caivs Aurelius Cotta will relinquish control of legio II, Avlvs Aemilivs Mamercvs will take over command. Caivs will be given Provincial governence of Ambrakia and Illyria Hellenike to compensate. However Caivs will be restricted to the city of Ambrakia for half a year, and at any time if it comes to light he is misusing his power he can be expulsed by a simple majority senate vote. any attempt to replicate his "patrols" will be met with the loss of his Governance and his house arrest in rome for 1 year.

I agree and second Edict 6.8 as it is now written.

thank you friend. Sextus smiles at his friend from Legio I, a fake smile which didnt reach to his eyes.

(OOC: We're from Legio I, Drizzt!)

(whhops, sorry trying to do math homework and eat, AND this, all at the same time. got mixed up hehh....:embarassed: fixed, again sorry....)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SwissBarbar

Avlvs laughed loud out. "Didn't I warn you, dear fathers of the republic? Before this Senatorial Session took place, I predicted that certain senatores would denounce their political enemies, if they ran out of better arguments. And there you see it! I was right. I should really make an application as an Augur instead of fighting Rome's enemies."

Many senators laughed, Avlvs sat down and shook his head, still laughing. "My god, what a born fool", he thought.

---

Or perhaps all the arguments have been said, and need not repeated? You mistake no arguements for already spoken ones. I for one dont like to hear the same thing over and over again, do you?

"No, that's not a possibility. Because if all arguments would have been said and didn't need to be repeated, why should he make up new nonsense-arguments like he did? He'd better say nothing, instead of using stupid arguments! But well.. he did, using these allegations to underline his opinion.

To answer your question: I also don't like to hear the same thing about "he's your friend, so you support him, though you should know better" - excretions again and again.

Therefore, thank you for trying to be involved in this .... 'conversation' .... and be aware of my respect for having tried to think before speaking."

Following proposals are from gamemaster, and created by player mini. They will not require seconds, and when voted on, weighted votes will not be used. All influence will be 1. All other in-game edicts and charter rules remain the same however. All reforms which pass will be enacted as of the NEXT congressional council.

First of all, a few new concepts you will need to grasp before reading the reforms entirely:

Concepts:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. Office Terms
Every elected rank is valid for 12 turns. After each 12 turns there will be a congressional session and new elections for offices.
Only exception is the tribunus Plebis, who will be active for 24 turns.

2. Character Points

To get to the next rank (Rule 2.4) every player must get a certain amount of 'CP's'.
Character points are gained from participating in IC events and having your character do something in-game

Battle
"Crushing Defeat" -3 points
"Clear Defeat" -2 point
"Average Defeat" -1 point
"Close Defeat" -1/2 point
"Close Victory" 1 point
"Average Victory" 2 point
"Clear Victory" 3 points
"Heroic Victory" 4 points

Governing
1CP per 2 turns for villages, towns, large towns
2CP per 2 turns for Cities, Large Cities
3CP per 2 turns for Huge Cities

A character which is NOT the main commander of the legion, but does participate in the battle will receive the following points:
1/2 of the normal points if this character is a Legatus. (rounded up)
1/3 if he is a quaestor (rounded down)

To the GM: please note that points will be rounded to 0.25
example:
a quaestor who participated in a close victory: 1 * 1/3 =0.33 (rounds down) == 0.25 CP's
a legatus who participated in the same battle: 1 * 1/2 = 0.50CP

Note: I, as GM, will do a complete review of game history before the next CC and will transfer the new CP points into our current BP points.

3. Pomerium

This included all cities of italy below the padus river.
(Ingame this means: Arretium/ariminum are the northern border of the pomerium. Then it goes al lthe way south to taras/Rhegion.)

This will be the area regarded as homeland. Keep it in mind for it will be mentioned @ ranks.

4.Provinces

A province will be an area in-game, determined by a Charter Amendement, that will or may included several cities in a region and will be governed by a PG (provincial governor)
As the Empire grows bigger, provinces may change in shape/size. ALL NON-POMERIUM CITIES WILL HAVE TO HAVE TYPEII.
Client-ruled cities do not count as a province.

For example: Sicily is a province. It will have 1 governor who will chose his 'capital'. This chosen capital will nto be able to be governed by a quaestor during the term of the governor.
Publius cornelius is now an ex-consul, and chooses as his province Sicily. He then declares Lilybaem his capital, so from there he governs.
His nephew is new in the senate, and Publius Cornelius asks the CoF if his nephew can serve him as a quaestor.
Publius Cornelius can now ask his nephew to govern either one of sicily's other cities.

5. Theatre of War
A theatre of war is a province which is adjacent to a nation of which we are at war with.
For instance: Illyria when we are at war with epeirus.
When a CoL is elected, he may declare his Theatre of War, providing the neighbouring faction is at war with us.
This allows the consul to take control of the province and wager war on the neighbouring faction.
The CoL is the ONLY person who may ventured into enemy territory without approval of the senate. (as longs as the enemy is in a state of war)

6. CASUS BELLI
This concept means the Republic only goes to war with a VALID REASON.
We only attack when we are attacked, or our allies have been attacked, or a nations threatens the status quot in our region.
Provincial Governors are therefore not allowed to take their legion into foreign territory.
Unless the foreigners have intruded our land or attacked us.

This also means that as long as a faction does not attack us/allies placed close to us, governors cannot conquer any new cities.
Only the CoL can venture out to gain new cities.

In case we are attacked, a provincial governor may send word to the senate, who may vote an edict for revenge.

7. Voting system
The congressional system as it is remains, with a few additions:

The Tribunus Plebeis may enfore 2 edicts per term without vote.

A provincial Governor may call of Vote on War: this means that a PG may request the senate to allow him to conquer a foreign settlement of a faction currently not at war with the SPQR.
This includes rebel cities. This may happen when the foreign faction has had troops on our territory or the faction is showing 'bad intentions' to us or our allies.
The governor must provide evidence for a casus belli, after which he may create a poll. No seconding required.

IC voting: several small IC-related things may also require a voting outside the session. This will regard things that do not affect in-game issues (for example giving bean a triumph)
IC voting can be started by anyone. It requires 3 'secondings' after which a voting poll will be isued.


Voting for any of the above will last for 24hrs after creation of the poll. No turn may be ended during this period.

8. Law system

Whenever an edicts contradicts a rule, the edicts will have to be judged by the current elected praetor.
He will have final word on the validness of the edict.

Of course, this means that praetors should take their responsability as not letting things get out of hand against the spirit of the game.

Some issues and changes will need to be taken directly to the GM.

This is to represent the fickleness of ancient roman law.
THIS RULE IS DEBATABLE/OPTIONAL

Cursus Honorum Romanum (carreer for a roman senator)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Privatus (starting rank)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A privatus is a young man, just finishing his education in Rome and ready for the first step of the Cursus Honorum
Requirements: None (Training Stage 1)
Vote weight: 1
Powers:
Penalties:
(1) May not lead any troops nor propose laws.
(2) Cannot Run for Consul
(3) Skulks in Rome to gain ancilliaries until he gets elected as Tribunus Plebis OR appointed Quaestor by a CoF.

Tribunus Militum

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: None (Training Stage 2)
Vote weight: 1
Powers:
1) May send a request to the CoL to join a legion.
Penalties:
(1) A young man, preferring the education an army can give him above one found in the forum romanum.
(2) May not lead any troops nor propose laws.
(3) Cannot Run for Consul
(4) may not govern a city

Quaestor

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: Must have been appointed by the consul of Finance (or by request of a provincial governor to the CoF).
Vote weight: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Edict/Charter Amendment per 'Congressional' Session.
(2) Can govern one city (except province capitals)
(3) Must be appointed by Consul of Finance (for a pomerium city) OR requested by a provincial governor (for a provincial city). If requested by a PG, the CoF will still have to approve the assignment.
(4) Can act as second in command to a Legate/Dux/Consul
(5) Can also govern a provincial city in the province of a governor.
Penalties
(1) Cannot command a FULL Legion. (In times of need, they ARE allowed to command the Alae.)

Tribune of the Plebs

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Speaks for the Plebs in the Comita.
Requirements: Must be elected to position.
Vote weight: 2
Powers:
(1) Can propose one edict/charter amendment per congressional council;
(2) Can veto 2 edicts per term
(3)The Tribune of the Plebs term is two Consul Terms long. (24 turns)
(4) Can issue 2 edicts during his term which become valid from point of announcement until next session.
(5) receives 18 CP's after term is completed as this is the first electable office and regarded as the first step of the cursus honorum.
Penalties:
(1) May not lead any troops
(2) Cannot Run for Consul
(3) Cannot govern a city

Praetor

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements:
Must have been Quaestor OR Tribunus plebis. Must have 25 'CP's'. Must be elected.
Vote weight: 4
Powers:
(1) Can lead 1 legion
(2) Can propose 3 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.
(3) Will get to choose province to govern when term as praetor is over, after both consuls have chosen theirs.
(4) Can act as judge in IC disputes
(5) May sponser the formation of Houses/Families

Consul of Finance

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Only Consul of Finance will end the “turn”.
Requirements: Must have been elected to this office. Must have been Praetor OR have 40 CP’s.
Vote weight: 5
Powers:
(1) Can build any building in any settlements he wishes and set the tax rate in any settlement unless they are part of a Provincial Governorship. Cannot recruit military units.
(2) Gains automatically control of the Consular Legio II. This legion will be stationed in a fort outside Capua. It may never enter Latium unless passing through or if there is an enemy near Rome. Legion will be used only to clean up rebels inside the pomerium ONLY.
(3) MUST BE STATIONED IN ROME! The finance consul must always be in Rome to govern. Unless fighting off rebels.
(4) All diplomats (not spies or assassins) are under the command of the Consul of Finance. He can move them and use them as he sees fit.
(5) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Player to themselves or any other Senator.
(6) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(7) Will get first pick of his province to govern after term is complete.
(8) Can propose 5 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.
(9) Can exclude 1 avatar from participating in the congress. the so called: "lictors, remove this man" move Basically only to be used when people are truely annoying in the Curia, or rebellious.

Consul of the Legion’s

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: Must have been elected to this office. Must have been Praetor OR have 40 CP’s
Vote weight: 5
Powers:
(1) Can build any military unit in any settlements he wishes unless they are part of a Provincial Governorship. Cannot construct buildings.
(2) Assumes control of the Legio I .
(3) May choose his theater of war. If no theatre of war is active, must remain in Rome.
(4) All Assassins/Spy are under command of the Consul of the Legion’s. He can move them and use them in any way he wishes.
(5) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Player to themselves or any other Senator.
(6) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(7) Will get second pick of his province to govern after completion of term.
(8) Can propose 5 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.

Provincial Governor

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: Must be an outgoing Consul/Praetor OR Must be appointed to this rank through the Senate by an edict.
Vote weight: 3
Powers:
(1) Can govern the Province they have been given. This means: Set the tax level, ask unit recruitment/building construction (Should be mentioned in the SOT).
(2) Can propose 2 Edicts or Amendments per 'Congressional' Session.
(3) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can Prioritize one building in any build queue in any settlement in his Province(s).
(4) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can destroy one building in any settlement. Buildings in the barracks lines cannot be destroyed with this power.
(5) Commands 1 provincial legion.
(6) Can appoint a Quaestor to govern any city he choses in his province.

Legatus

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: Must have 15 CP's. Must be appointed by Senate/provincial governor.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can command 1 legion OR 1 provincial legion.

Dicator
Must be elected by a ¾ majority in the senate OR legion commanders.
Powers
(1)Assumes total control of all supporting legions
(2)Can establish edicts as he sees fit
(3)Can establish charter amendements in negotation with the GM

All avatars/ legions which do not support the dicator will be declared rebels until the dictatorship is over.
All ‘rebels’ will lose their ability to recruit.
The loyalists however, will also not be able to recruit in provinces which are governed by a ‘rebel’

More details on this can be furnished on request 

The point of these reforms is:
1)Until you reach praetor, you’re basically a junior senator
2)Once you pass praetor, you get acces to the cool offices.
3)If you manage to get yourself elected, you got much power during your term
4)If your term is over, you get to choose your playground
5)There has to be atleast 1 term between your next election (Term A, you’re consul; Term B; you’re a governor; Turn C; you can get elected again.
6)During your time as a non-elected senator, you’re between the junior senators and the elected senators concerning power.
7)Once everyone gets a high rank, game will evolve around factions as the people who can get their members elected wield more power than those who don’t. This establishes a whole end-game which the current ranks do not have.

Legion Reforms

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

8. Legions
All Legions are BOUND to their area. Legions will be composed of 1 roman half, one allied half (Alae)
The allied half will be unit types that are recrutable in the area the Legion is bound to.

Compostion of Standard Legions

Camillan era
1 General
1 Leves or Accensi
1 Hastati
1 principes
1 triari
Alae
1 skirmisher type
2 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian or Gallic infantry or just any local stuff if the real distant cities)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 unit local cavalry

Polybian Era
1 General
1 unit of Velites/Accensi
1 unit of Hastati
1 unit of Principes
1 unit of Triarii
Alae
The two socii alae are composed as follows:
1 unit of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
2 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian, Gallic, or Iberian infantry)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 unit of allied cavalry (Campanian, Greek, Gallic, Ligurian or anything else available, or possibly equites extraordinarii)

Marian
1 General
1 unit of First Cohort
2 unit of cohors reformata
2 unit of antesignani/evocata
Support
1 unit of Scorpions/arrow throwers
Alae
1 unit of allied javelin-men
1 unit of allied slingers or archers
1 unit of allied cavalry

SPECIAL LEGIONS
Consular Legion I for the CoL:
A normal legion

Consular Legion II for the CoF:
A normal legion MINUS the Alae

Provincial Legion
Normal Legion minus the Alae

Extending council 24 more hours to discuss reforms. (Wednesday, the 18th at 1600 Pacific!)

OOC: So you know all, the rank of Dux and Aedile will not be taken out it will be somewhat changed as to how you acquire the rank but it will remain the same; just about legatus.

"Gentlemen, with such sweeping changes being proposed to our way of governance, I propose Edict 6.9: That the new legal reforms of the Res Publica bear the name of their creator, Qvintvs Aemilivs Regillvs, and henceforth be known as the 'Aemilian Reforms'."

I second edict 6.9. , Avlvs said.

I second Edict 6.9

Time for legislation proposal has now ended. Voting will begin shortly in which there will be 48 hours time allotted to vote.

Tiberius Claudius Marcellus stands and coughs, garnering the attention of his fellow senatores

"Fellow senators, honored men and sons of Roma, I must voice that the ballot used for this series of elections and legislation proposals is most inaccurate, and is therefore ashambles. To use it would make a mockery of the democratic system and would cause too much confusion amongst eligible voters, thus leading to disenfranchisement. I therefore move that we halt all voting immediately, rendering any cast null and void, and convene an emergency session of the Senate, to draft a more perfect ballot. Once said ballot is re-written, all eligible parties shall be allowed to cast their votes anew to be tallied for counting.

"Should our noble body not deem it fit to make its processes and procedures worthy of the Res Publica, then I shall abstain on voting this session in protest of the lack of attention to detail and laziness on the part of those senatores whose responsibility it was to create our ballots."

Hey, that's true!

I've been disenfranchised! :furious3::help:

"The points we can vote upon indeed are not complete." (BTW: we don't vote by ballots, we raise hands). "Let's vote on the other Edicts, as we did for Edict 6.4."

"Though I completely agree with senator Tiberivs Clavdivs, I have to say to you, Appivs Clavdivs, to better shut your mouth concerning disenfranchisement, for your unworthy edict 6.5. is exactly about to do that to Caivs Avrelivs."

A message from Qvintvs Aemilivs Regillvus

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

To the Conscript fathers of the S.P.Q.R.

I wish to express my thanks upon the honour bestowed upon my person by Tiberivs Claudivs Marcellvs.
To have a law named after oneself, is a guarantee a man will shine through the ages.

I also wish to inform the Senate that Legio II is eager to decise this war against the Epeiros. I suggest we either take Ambrakia soon, or else consider negotiation of peace.
In my more humble opinion, we should force them to become a protectorate.


I wish to conclude this letter with the news that I shall return to the Senate as soon as I'm allowed by my father, Caivs Avrelivs Cotta.

"If my edict passes, Legio II will smash their city to the ground." Avlvs said. "After having done that, I have nothing against forcing Epeiros to become a protectorate."

"Aulus Aemilius, for us to be able to vote on other edicts with a simple 'yay' or 'nay' would require a formal announcement by those senators responsible for compiling the edicts and ammendments to re-introduce those that were excluded. Otherwise, the process will be as unordered as a gaggle of geese honking and posturing as they attempt to eat stale bread from a child's hand at a pond. I must re-affirm my belief that the voting must be done anew, lest we fail at our most basic of responsibilities - to vote on laws and represent the citizens of the Res Publica.

"I would also stress that you show respect to Senator Appius Claudius Nero, as his Edict has received the required number of seconds and has yet to be deemed 'unworthy', as it has not been voted upon. The edict also seeks not to disenfranchise Caius Aurelius, since the meaning of the word means to refuse or withold representation or a voice from one who is deserving. As evidenced by his own behaviors and actions, it is clear to myself and others that the 'Praetor' is obviously un-deserving, hence the need for such legislation to forcibly remove him from power."

"Since we don't agree with each other, it would be senseless to debate further, honourable Tiberivs Clavdivs. As long as it's not proven otherwise, the edict remains 'unworthy' to me and 'convenient" to you. Let's see the result of the vote, which shall be respected and inviolable for everyone. At the end everyone has to bow to the will of the senate."

OOC: Eh, sorry. That post up there was OOC. I'd meant to put it in the Poll thread.

Having returned to the Curia after the mid-day meal, Tiberius Claudius took a moment to address his fellow legislators.

"Honored men of Roma, please accept my heartfelt thanks that justice has been served this day. By re-voting on these issues we have fufilled our most basic of responsibilities and allowed all proper legislation to see the light of day. Know that no matter the outcome of the votes, the traditions and legal authority of the Senate and the Res Publica have been maintained inviolate. Hold your heads high with honor, noble Romans."

Lvcvllvs and Avlvs held their heads high and enjoyed the fresh air up there

"Hear, hear!"

After the Senatores had voted on all matters, Avlvs smiled, for he was very content with the result!

"Senatores! Today you have proven that this senate is worthy of Roma, that justice, sanity and reason still are ruling this Republic, and not jealousy and political conflicts between individual senatores! He frowned at Appivs Clavdivs, turned around and then continued. You have proven that we treat our enemies like our enemies should be treated and not to spare them only because it would be a commander that certain senatores do not like personally, who would execute the sacred will of the senate! Honourable fathers of the Republic, by right you can be proud of you!

Furthermore I congratulate my dear Cousin, Qvintvs Avrelivs Q. f. Cotta Aemilianvs on the passing of his reforms!

Since the voting is settled, I shall prepare for my journey to Epeiros where I'll rejoin Legio II. This evening I will hold a great festival in honour of Merkur, to request him to bless me, and the ones who travel with me, with a save journey. You all are invited to my family's villa."

With that Avlvs left the Curia, well knowing that his friend Lvcvllvs will continue to avow for right, justice and the maintenance of the Republic.

Stalking out of the Curia following the results of the votes, Caivs Avrelivs stood for a moment on the steps of the Senate House, looking out over the city. Presently, he was joined by Avlvs Aemilivs, and together they simply stood in silence for a while.

Then Caivs Avrelivs spoke.

"My friend, we seem to have won the vote. Illyria it is for you then."

When his companion looked quizical, Caivs Avrelivs smiled.

"I am passing the command of Legio II to you, as my second and my confident. I know they will be in good hands with you. The Senate has already shown it's readiness to accept you as the next commander, and although the majority voted against my forced resignation, you and I both know this was always the outcome. I will meet you when I come to take over as governer."

Avlvs Aemilivs nodded slowly.

"Leave Ambrakia in a good state for when I arrive, my friend," Caivs Avrelivs clapped him on the shoulder, and walked briskly down the street.

OOC: Since you left the Curia before saying it, I can't very well tell you this IC, but you can't do that. If you step down from commanding Legio II, everyone who wish to command it must have the chance to apply for it, since it's the senate who chooses the commander, not the previous one.

Due to legionary reforms, Consular Legio IV Roma will now be Consular Legio I Roma. It, as our charter will see fit, will be under the command of whomever is the Consul of the Legions at the time. Also, by the time the next congressional council comes around, all legions, including Consular Legio's, must be reformatted to proper standing in accordance with our new reforms.

Another thing, Legio V will be the first example of how all new Legios should look. It well be proclaimed as Legio V Italia.


From the Office of Military Advisors:

Quote:

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Legio I Apulia: Orders are to establish a defensive position in Tolosa, retrain, and commision a new commander.

Legio II Latium: Orders are to capture the city of Ambrakia, wait to establish a garrison there, and return home (OOC: Any Italia province.) for an order of leave. After which, a change of command will be proclaimed.

Legio III Campania: Orders are to retrain, and await Consul Manivs Cicero's orders to invade Sicilia.

Consular Legio I Roma: Orders are to change command to Consul Manivs Cicero, retrain, and lead the fight into Sicilia.

Legio V Italia: Orders are to be trained, commissioned, be given a commander, and await further orders from the senate.

---

Notice from the office of the Consul of Finance:

Quote:

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Consul Cornelius Blasio is officially, by edict, proclaimed provincial governor of Taras and its surrounding province.

Consul Manivs Cicero is officially, by edict, for a period of 2 years to be proclaimed provincial governor of Tolosa and its surrounding province. He is now the rank of Quaestor as well.(OOC: apart from the Consul rank that is.)

---

A messenger arrived in the Curia and respectfully greeted the Senatores. After he was granted to speak, he unrolled a letter from Avlvs Aemilivs and said.

Senatores, I came all the way from Epeiros to bring you the lates news from there.

He started to read.

Quote:

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Honourable fathers of the Republic

The sacred will of the Senate has been carried out. In a single great battle, Legio II managed to defeat and completely destroy the enemy forces. The leading general of the hostile army, no less a figure than the heir to the Epeirote throne himself, fell to the blades of our brave soldiers and as I write this letter, our cavalry secures the streets of Ambrakia. The capital city of Epeiros now is ours!

Since Legio II is ordered to return to Italia, I request the Consul of the Legions to station units from Epidamnos in Ambrakia to keep the public order at a harmless level.

Legatvs Avlvs Aemilivs Lucii filivs Mamercvs

---

this is great news, once and for all the Epeiros have fallen to us. I applaud Avlvs Aemilivs for his assault.
Sextvs laughs
perhaps one day he will grow to the proportions of Caivs Avrelivs.

Aye Avlvs Aemilivs, you are a model for any inspiring Legatvs. My congratulations to you and your troops.
Sextvs Cornelivs Scapvlla then gave his papers and orders to Exomnivs, and made way for Tolosa. There was much work to be done in Gaul.

"A model for any...?" Pvblivs laughed. "Isn't that going just a bit too far? He defeated an already defeated enemy, and that's all. Lets not deify him for it."

exactly that is the model for all aspiring Legatvs to follow. Sextvs laughs once again

"You must be joking, because you cannot seriously believe what you're saying here. He had a big and experienced legion full with soldiers against farmers, old men and kids armed with pitchforks and no real leader. They were already defeated before he even entered the province! All Avlvs Aemilivs had to do was to not command the legion to surrender and victory was assured - and you're telling me that makes him the perfect model for other Legates?

You must have an extremely low opinion of the other Legates for that to be the case, and an equally low standard for what to expect from one."

He was given command of any army and he led it into battle with spectacular results. Sure, he may have had some advantages like well-trained and experienced soldiers, going against a weakened and out-numbered enemy. But he didn't get over-confident, nor did he let the pressures of command get to him, and the men carried out his commands as ordered. Not too shabby for his first command.

I can assure you it was a joke. Aemilvs won a victory let him have that. there is no reason to get into a heated arguement over it. I am also a Legatvs and am glad that Aemilvs first battle as a Legion commander went so well. It was a light jest, that I hopped would stop this from leading to a fight. I meant no offense to anyone.

Servivs laughs in the corner...

"Ah Pvblivs Atilivs how right you are. As i see the issue of command is up for debate for these legions, might i remind you all of our Legatii Decimvs and Tiberivs? They have seen plenty of combat with the Legio III from Italia across to Ilyria, it only seems fitting that after all this time they receive command of a legion. They also commanded the Legio III in my absence and defeated a gang of rebels romping about Italia. It seems they deserve command more than, at least than these, erm, green youths who are clamoring for the command. What say you?'"

"Thank the gods, I thought you had gone mad. I apologize for that. I do not deny him his victory, but lets stay honest about it: there was nothing 'spectacular' about it, and anything but a complete victory would make a fool out of him.

If Sextvs Cornelivs thinks that simply not getting overconfident or bucking to the pressure is enough to make him a model Legatus", Pvblivs frowns as he spurts out those last words, "then I would, if I was a Legate, take great offence in that. It is seeing someone of that rank squashing a bug under his feet, and then tell the rest of the Legates that they should then try their best to be as good as him, so that one day they too may be able to complete such a mighty feat."

Pvblivs snorts.

"To have such low expectations of Roman commanders is despicable."

What, then, would your expectations be for a commander? That the hills tremble when he shouts, and that he can command the earth to quake and the enemy to be swallowed up? It is ridiculous that I must elaborate when I offer congratulations. I guess I shall have to tell Exomnivs to include disclaimers every time he speaks. As for now, I am through arguing for the sake of arguing. I head for Tolosa.
Sextvs turns his back and leaves

"Servius Sempronius, many thanks for your passionate words. Indeed both Decimus Cornelius and myself would make excellent commanders of the new legio - and we have you to thank for that training. I pray to the gods daily that one of us shall be allowed to command by the Senate; but I fear that our enemies conspire against us yet again. Though Caius Aurelius Cotta's guilty conscience has forced him to accept the fate of the war monger he is, despite a majority of senatores failing to vote to punish him, he and his rabid supporters have formally combined their might into a house of lies and a den of thieves and cowards to stand against the Res Publica and those who would defend her.

"Lo! Even Cnaeus Cornelius Blasio has gravitated towards the power emanating from this alliance most evil and appears to be using his Provincial Governorship to aid his longtime friends. It would seem that his 'stepping down' from power was but a ploy to gain the trust and confidence of those senatores - myself included - and convince them that he was a reformed man. He is nought but a wolf in sheep's clothing; a venomous, lying snake. Dark times lie ahead and those of us on the side of good and righteousness appear ready to be caught out in the rain."

Blasio jumps up..

"And what good have you done but stand here in the senate tossing lies and deceit in every which way! Your tongue is good for nothing but turning you childish jealousy against others. Our new family contains the most noble of Roman men in this senate. I can only say that I wish you had not twisted Pvblivs Regvlvs into such opposition toward me, for he is a noble man as well. You, however, and your clan of low life followers are a pitiful bunch. Every time I enter this place of business, you are there pointing your finger at good men who have done nothing but serve the senates order, whether by vote or majority rules. I await the day you actually serve our great Republic so that, maybe, you can actually earn a deserved applause as men like Praetor Caivs Cotta and Consul Manivs Cicero have done. In fact, the list of better men here goes far beyond those two, and at the moment it would pain me to place your name on said list. I pity you and your outrageous remarks, I hope you come to learn politics that is not made up of lies and games. Do not cast me out to be anything but a man of my word."

Lvcvllvs laughed

"It's incredible. He only sent a letter to say "Ambrakia is taken, enemy army defeated". Point. No claim for a triumphus, no claim for any recognition, no claim for nothing. Avlvs was well aware that, with the battle-tested troops and due to the fact, that he had fought with them for over 8 years and therefore they knew each other and could act as a great team, nothing else than a victory could be expected. But still you REALLY argue over this? I mean... what is the matter with you all?.

Again, he did not ask for recognition, the purpose of the message simply is: "Will of the senate done, please send troops to secure the city, for Legio II is ordered to go back to Italy." Which has been done, thanks to the Consul of the Legions."

Norbanus rose gracefully, holding a scroll in his hands. After straightening his toga, he started speaking.

"Lucullus, don't get Tiberius Claudius wrong. He does not mean that Aulus Aemilius is not to congratulate for his victory.
Though a defeat would have brought great shame and a victory was very much expected, nevertheless it is always good to see that we, the nobility of Rome, still produce able commanders.

Yet the issue they are discussing here, is the rather illegal action of Aulus Aemilius.
Now I don't want to imply that Aulus Aemilius has willingly and knowingly broken the law.

He was under the impression that command was his, by word of Caius Aurelius.
I am also sure that this latter, very venerable man, did not knowingly transgressed the boundaries of law in doing so.

Yet when Caius Aurelius Cotta term as commander of the Legio II ended, so did the term of all his appointed chain of command. Therefore Aulus Aemilius was by word of law, no longer Legate of the Legio II and should - as dictated by law and tradition - have waited until the senate appointed a new senior commander to the legion.

This new commander is of course free to choose his own chain of command.


Nevertheless this obvious transgression of the law, I wish to express my opinion that neither senator willingly or knowingly broke the law in this case.
I have discussed this with my fellow Tribunus Plebis, Quintus Aemilius Regillus, one of the most renown advocates in the Forum this day and age and reached the following conclusion.
Considering this issue ended in the capture of Ambrakia, our suggestion is that the senate should appoint a new commander to Legio II as soon as possible, and that the transgression of both men should be seen in the light of ignorance and a will to execute the will of the senate for the best of Roma.
No reprisals should be taken, and the legion should be led home to be discharged right away.

If the Senate deems it wise to send a new legion, a new commander should be appointed.

Aulus Aemilius should be granted an official thanksgiving from the Senate on the capture of the Epeirotean capital, but should be given the subtle notion that the Senate was most merciful in indulging this transgression of the law."

"I agree that the Senate should appoint a new candidate for Legio II. Avlvs Aemilivs of course will the the prime candidate to this honour, since he not only is one of the longest-serving Legati of the Roman Republic but also has fought with the men for 9 years and has earned their respect and trust."

"Lvcvllvs, I think you will notice that I have said nothing against Avlvs Aemilivs himself, and though I, as you should know, disagree with the strategic sense in the mission, I too would like to congratulate him for the success of it. What I was reacting against was the ridiculous claim that this victory showed him as 'a model for other Legates to follow'. This, of course, was solely against those who spewed such notions and not Avlvs Aemilivs, who had not done such a thing himself."

"I noticed that, I just could not believe, that some argue again just with no reason" , Lvcvllvs laughed. "Nothing against you personally. Thank you for your congratulations."

Norbanus rose

"Dear Senators, I have received a message from Quintus Aemilius Regillus. He would like to request that the Senate should order the immediate preparation for the recruitment of Italian Alae troops in the city of Bonoia, Patavium and Genoa. Since legion composition has now been regulated by law, preparations should be made so we can adhere to the law."

Norbanus finished and sat down. Since he disliked being used as a messenger, he did not spoke for the preposition, yet his loyalty to a fellow Tribunus Plebis obliged him not to speak against either.



OOC: I forgot the ingame name for Genoa, sorry :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mini

Norbanus rose gracefully, holding a scroll in his hands. After straightening his toga, he started speaking.

"Lucullus, don't get Tiberius Claudius wrong. He does not mean that Aulus Aemilius is not to congratulate for his victory.
Though a defeat would have brought great shame and a victory was very much expected, nevertheless it is always good to see that we, the nobility of Rome, still produce able commanders.

Yet the issue they are discussing here, is the rather illegal action of Aulus Aemilius.
Now I don't want to imply that Aulus Aemilius has willingly and knowingly broken the law.

He was under the impression that command was his, by word of Caius Aurelius.
I am also sure that this latter, very venerable man, did not knowingly transgressed the boundaries of law in doing so.

Yet when Caius Aurelius Cotta term as commander of the Legio II ended, so did the term of all his appointed chain of command. Therefore Aulus Aemilius was by word of law, no longer Legate of the Legio II and should - as dictated by law and tradition - have waited until the senate appointed a new senior commander to the legion.

This new commander is of course free to choose his own chain of command.


Nevertheless this obvious transgression of the law, I wish to express my opinion that neither senator willingly or knowingly broke the law in this case.
I have discussed this with my fellow Tribunus Plebis, Quintus Aemilius Regillus, one of the most renown advocates in the Forum this day and age and reached the following conclusion.
Considering this issue ended in the capture of Ambrakia, our suggestion is that the senate should appoint a new commander to Legio II as soon as possible, and that the transgression of both men should be seen in the light of ignorance and a will to execute the will of the senate for the best of Roma.
No reprisals should be taken, and the legion should be led home to be discharged right away.

If the Senate deems it wise to send a new legion, a new commander should be appointed.

Aulus Aemilius should be granted an official thanksgiving from the Senate on the capture of the Epeirotean capital, but should be given the subtle notion that the Senate was most merciful in indulging this transgression of the law."

---

Lvcvllvs turned to Norbanus and simply said

"Firstly: They were NOT discussing whether his action was illegal or not, but whether this victory shall be awarded or not - more as a joke, since not even Avlvs Aemilivs asked for it.

The legality of his actions is proved by this order from the Office of Military Advisors. It has been done the same way in Legio III, also legally:"

Quote:

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from the Office of Military Advisors.

Legio I Apulia: Orders are to establish a defensive position in Tolosa, retrain, and commision a new commander.

Legio II Latium: Orders are to capture the city of Ambrakia, wait to establish a garrison there, and return home (OOC: Any Italia province.) for an order of leave. After which, a change of command will be proclaimed.

Legio III Campania: Orders are to retrain, and await Consul Manivs Cicero's orders to invade Sicilia.

Consular Legio I Roma: Orders are to change command to Consul Manivs Cicero, retrain, and lead the fight into Sicilia.

Legio V Italia: Orders are to be trained, commissioned, be given a commander, and await further orders from the senat

---

"Which is quite the opposite of what you deem legal, namely to turn back to italy, choose a commander and then go and take Ambrakia. Naturally , since the commander of Legio II is not available, the second in command has to fullfill the will of the senate, as ordered in voted edicts.

Secondly: You should not be too eager in defaming other people, even combined with nice additions like "he did not know" etc., since it's getting all too obvious where your and the "other" Tribvnvs Plebis' loyality lies.

Thirdly: The usus to defame your political enemies is about to tire me (OOC: ...of this game, it really is). Avlvs may react quick-tempered from time to time if confronted by (in his opinion) unfair defamation, but always respects the achievements of other Senatores, and is not too proud even to honestly congratulate his political "enemies". At the end we all serve the same purpose, the Roman Republic.

Fourthly: To wait would not only have been against the edict, it also would have been against every wise strategical movement.

And fifthly: At the risk of boring you by repeating myself, I again have to say, that it is all too obvious, that you try to defame Avlvs Aemilivs in order to make him unbearable as commander of Legio II, for which post of course he will run. I trust, that the other members of the senate, including Tiberivs Clavdivs, to whom you refer, will be fair enough to consider that Avlvs not only is one of the two most-experienced and longest-serving Legati, but also that he has fought 9 years in Legio II and therefore none would be more able to command this Legion, as none would be more able than Tiberivs Clavdivs or Decimvs Cornelivs to command Legio III.

Norbanus rose indignantly

"First of all, I would like not to be told where my 'loyalty' lies. I am only loyal to myself. Second of all, if you cannot see that I am trying to EXCUSE the actions of Aulus Aemilius, rather than condemning them, you are a blind fool.

As to the LEGALITY issue: A legion is voted a commander. This commander choses his chain of command. SO for as long as Caius Aurelius Cotta was commander, Aulus Aemilius was his senior legate.

Considering the fact that Caius Aurelius Cotta then was removed from command, this means that LEGALLY, Aulus Aemilius is no longer senior legate.

The proper and legal course to take for Aulus Aemilius, was to await the appointment of a new senior commander for the legion, and then be relieved unless he himself was appointed as senior commander.

I have not seen any proposition nor debate around this issue. Unlike what you may think, the simple handing over by Caius Aurelius to you on no autority but Cotta's himself, is illegal.

I have proper respect for my senior senators, but if thoise senior senators have no respect for the law I shall not hold my tongue.

Legio II should be designated a new senior commander by order of the senate, or the legion should be discharged. Until what is to be done is decided, Aulus Aemilius is to hold himself to the law and wait for either relieve of command, orders to march for discharge or the official appointment of his command.
Furthermore he may only react to immediate threat.

BUT THAT IS IT.

Should he take any more illegal actions, I shall file a law suit. You can tell that to your master."

"That's the point. His action don't need any excuse, for it was the will of the Senate." Lvcvllvs laughed. "And he's my friend, not my master."

"As far as I can see, the will of the senate was that Legio II was to take Ambrakia
The will of the senate as far as whom is the commander of this legion however, was not decided. Therefore Aulus Aemilius transgressed his authority.

I already said I will let this slip past the net, since he did capture an enemy city. But any other action he might take from now on, will leave him open for prosecution.

End of story"

"No, you don't get the point, do you. It was ordered to take Ambrakia. And it was told, that it would gain a new commander AAAAFTTTEEEER (meaning not before) it has taken Ambrakia."

After taking Ambrakia.


After taking Ambrakia.



After taking Ambrakia.


After taking Ambrakia.


I say that now, until you have internalize the meaning of these words.

Lvcvllvs continues whispering this in Norbanus' ear and hired a man, who shouted "After taking Ambrakia." the whole next night in front of Norbanus' villa.


OOC: :wall: :wall: :wall:

OOC: then you acted on Cotta's orders, as a 2nd in command. Which was not how it was being said here :)

Bean his IC post where he GIVES you the command of the legion, comes BEFORE the battle.
Therefore, you were actual 1st in command, which is totally illegal and which is my point.

OOC: and what was being said here, IN the curia (not outside of it by bean, where noone can hear anyone)?

Totally illegal according to what? Your rules? Ancient Romes? Wake up! We're not really there! Let it go!

scroll up to beans post :)

he officially states he steps down and hands you the command of the legion.

it is only AFTER that, that you fight the battle.


Which makes the whole thing illegal.
bean should just have said nothing :) then it would have looked as if you acted om command of bean as his second in command.

@Bean: A legion commander must be appointed by the senate..

No he does not. He told Avlvs the stuff of stepping down and leaving the command of him OUTSIDE OF THE CURIA, even if it was written in the curia-thread. Man, read the post again!

if it is posted here, it if official.

I can easily IC someone overhearing the conversation... Curia = official

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mini

if it is posted here, it if official.

I can easily IC someone overhearing the conversation... Curia = official

---

AS GM I CHANGED THE RULES TO HOW LEGION COMMANDERS ARE CHOSEN, I OKAYED THE WHOLE AMBRAKIA ARGUMENT, AND I AM HEREBY DECLARING THAT DUE TO A MANY RULE CHANGES; THE OLD WAY OF DOING THINGS IS THAT AT ANYTIME A LEGION COMMANDERS TRIBUNE OR TOURING LEGATE MAY TAKE COMMAND OF THEIR LEGION IN A THE COMMANDERS ABSENCE OR TEMPORARY RELIEF. OUR OLDER PLAYERS UNDERSTOOD AND PLAYED BY THAT RULE. THINGS ARE GOING TO CHANGE SOON YES, BUT FOR NOW NOTHING HERE IS ILLEGAL, THIS ARGUMENT IS FINISHED, LET OTHER IMPORTANT ISSUES CONTINUE. THANK YOU, NAVARRO.

Cotta went mad, and started telling Avlvs he officially stepped down, even though he was actually very ill. Luckily, Avlvs, second in command, realised this, and took over command during Cottas illness. Well done Avlvs.

EDIT: Thank :daisy: for that...finally

Cornelius Blasio sends note:

Quote:

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Fine senators, Legio II as ordered as arrived to the homeland. We must now decide whom will command the legion. My vote goes to Avlvs Mamercvs. He has been with the Legion since the beginning. Also, ill be leaving my young friend Titus here as my speaker until I am in Roma again. I cannot say when that will be.

---

Lvcvllvs arose and spoke:

Of course my vote also goes to Avlvs Aemilivs, for the following reasons:

- He is one of the two longest-serving Legati of the Roman Republic.
- He had fought nine years at the side of Legio II. Of course many new recruits will join the Legion, but the veterans and officers who will stay in the Legion will be loyal to him. They know each other, know how they fight, know how they command and therefore the chance of misunderstandings between commander and officers in battle is reduced to a minimum.
- Furthermore he never gave us any reason to distrust his loyalty to the Roman Republic
- and last but not least he already has proven, that he is able to lead the men in battle.

"Ah Lvcvllvs you are sensible, it would make sense that Avlvs Aemilivs receive command of the Legio, your reasons for getting this command are quite true. My vote would go to Avlvs Aemilivs" Servivs Sempronivs sits once more.

And what of Legio I? inquired Exomnivs

"Who runs for the commandership of Legio I ?"

Norbanus rose, holding a scroll in his hand.


"Dear members of the Senate. In my hand I hold a message of my fellow Tribunus Plebis, the honourable Qvintvs Aemilivs Regillvs. I shall read it aloud on his behest."

Norbanus took a deep breath

"Conscript Fathers. During the last congressional session in our beloved session, you have all agreed there were some necessary changes to be made. Changes which have been proposed and approved. Yet few things have been done to make those changes possible. By information of the Consul of the Legions, we still not have the necessary facilities to complete our legions to the regulated composition. I hereby want to remind the ones responsable, to take IMMEDIATE measures to amend this problem. Keeping in mind that the Lex Aemiliae Reformatae will come into effect in only a few years, we must be ready to apply them in full.

Qvintvs Aemilivs, Tribvnvs Plebis" norbanus ended. puffing. He took one last gaze around the Curia, hoping Quintus' petition had driven its point home.

"True true. We need money."

Norbanus answered from his seat

"Maybe we should consider delaying the reform on Legio II. If we discharge the legion and do not immediately replace them, our income will rise temporarily, which will give us the funds needed to build the infrastructure needed to decently train and equip expedites extraordinari. Just a suggestion."

Pvblivs Atilivs stood up with a straight back, his head held high and raising his right hand while looking around the Curia.

"Fellow senators and honoured consuls, the question has been raised: who will lead Legio V, they ask. Who has enough experience, who has the know-how, who has the ability? Well, friends, without blowing my own horn too much, I would like to claim that I have all of those from my time commanding the former Legio I, which is now the provincial legion of Tolosa. With honour, bravery and unquestionable loyalty to the senate and people of Rome, I would be honoured to serve as the commander of the new Legio I, if that is what the senate wish for.

However, I still do agree with Qvintvs Aemilivs when he say we should postpone Legio II's reformation, as well as the formation of Legio V, for the benefit of the improved infrastructure. We need every last mnai we can scrape up."

Pvblivs Atilivs nods his head, and then takes his seat again.

Norbanus nodded towards Pvblivs Atilivs

"I thank you for agreeing. If more senators voice their consent, we can make work off the issue right away so we have more seasons of which we can benefit from profit.

However, building the necessary structures will require time. Time we do not have if we want to complete construction in time to apply the reforms. Therefore I will send an official petition to the consul, requesting he takes on a loan on behalf of the S.P.Q.R.

We could apply to the temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus to lend us the amount needed to complete construction of the infractructure at a rate of 10% simple interest per 2 seasons.

This way, our training facilities will be ready in time for the reforms.
By discharging Legio II - and perhaps even Legio I - and delaying recruting them anew, we will be able to pay back our loan in no time, while construction will not suffer any delay.

What do you say senators?"



OOC:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

about this lending bussiness, if we agree to do this.
In console add_money xxxx
and when we pay it back: in console add_money -xxxx

Should work I think, though i'l lcheck for sure tonight.

mispost sorry
navarro, check ooc topic and clarify something if you please :)

I agree Avlvs Aemilivs is the best man to lead Legio II,

as for Pvblivs Atilivs I can say for certain that Legio I will be overjoyed to here of your return, and enthusiastically vote for your return to Legio I

Titus stands...

"So it would appear that for the moment, Legio I shall return to the hands of Dux Pvblivs Regvlvs and Legio II shall be turned over to Avlvs Mamercvs yes? And what of the new Legio V? With so many experienced legates, I say we open a vote to decide that post. What do our fellow senators say?"

(OOC: I figure we just open a poll up for Legio V's command everyone okay with that?)