Because it was there ? ~:wacko:
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Because it was there ? ~:wacko:
AI refused to attack and battle timer was off. Dumb I know. Always play with timer on now.
*winces* That will backfire more than it will aid you... Plus, it is not as realistic, game-wise. Finish a campaign with the timer on and then do another campaign with it off, before telling me which one you prefer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Brave Sir Robin
In a normal battle the battle timer is never a problem. Atleast not for me. Some times in sieges the battle timer becomes important, for instance if you are attacking and the defences are really strong. But I kind of like it, even if its not realistic. Adds some tension to the sieges. :clown:
The debate can go either way depending on the time scale in your head since it can be construed as running out of daylight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus
I used to prefer it off before the aformentioned bridge battle and the occasional decision by the AI to siege me with a large army of horse archers, break down the wall, and never come into town. That situation never goes over well with my light cavalry.
"Alright boys, they're gonna wait out there forever until we surrender. You try to get them to charge the town by acting as bait."
Personally never had an issue with timer. My battles don't last longer than 45 min or whatever they normally give you for a decent sized battle. For the record, I've played 5 campaigns now on EB: Arche, Casse, Romani, KH, and now Lusotann. Last two have had time limits and had no problems even with the slow hoplites of the Koinon.
Regarding the Uirodusios vs. Woithiz Watha debate a few pages back:
The Woithiz Watha/Skadugangonez are not as bad as some here think. They have indeed some advantages going for them:
- higher morale (18 instead of 16)
- more ammo (4 instead of 3)
- higher charge bonus (12, which is only rivalled by Gaesatae and Tindanotae, instead of "only" 8)
- higher attack (both melee and missile) and defense skill.
Compare that to the Uirodusios' advantages:
- inspire friendly troops
- larger unit size
- much cheaper
- much larger AoR
- higher javelin range.
In the end, it is only a matter of preference. I say Woithiz Watha are worth their price, simply because of their cool name and their truly otherworldly appearance.
Well, if you are a pike phalanx nation, then I say the timer is important. Pikes are awfully slow at killing elites if no other units are supporting via flank/rear attacks, as it often happens in sieges.
Anyone posted Thraikioi Hippeis yet?
If not id say theyre SURPRISINGLY gOOD
For 591 upkeep you get mounted skirmisher that, when their javelins are gone, perform like better medium cavalry than ive ever seen. Thureos, scordisci sword, and decent armor. Ive devastated the sarmatian Cavalry/Foot archers armies with these guys.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...oi_hippeis.gif
ahh yes, another prime example of how the victors' the one with the bigga-choppa.
My suprisingly good unit is Akontistai.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...akontistai.gif
I have found them very useful in killing phalanxes: 6*120 javelins from behind will cause damage. They can also hold for a while in hand-to-hand. Plus they are cheap.
If only because of their large unit size... :juggle2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilkku92
I much prefer the Getic Komatai.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ai_komatai.gif
As another person posted before me, they are excellent skirmishers, and once they get into melee combat, they are surprisingly hardy (much more so than Akontistai).
I do believe Drapanai deserve another mentioning.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...i_drapanai.gif
These fellows comprise approximately a third to one-half of my field armies. Simply put, they are one of the most cost-effective units that I know of, able to dole out damage like nobody's business. They are extremely cheap considering what they can do (with AP ability plus .26 lethality, not even the most heavily armored elites are safe), they have a decent unit size, they have a wide AoR in the Eastern Europe area, and they are very hardy troops.
Pinning the enemy's line troops with Komatai + flanking and charging from the rear with Drapanai = INSTA-WIN.
The one fault that I can find with the Drapanai is their complete lack of armor, which makes them highly vulnerable to missile troops of any sort. A few HA/FM usually sorts out that problem, though.
agree about the Akontistai
as i dont consider casualties from any unit acceptable then units have to perform their job with minimum casualties whilst maximising the enemy casualties - this way i usually have kill ratios from 80:1 - 10:1.
Playing a fairly new campaign at the mo - Rome... my favorite units would have to be:
numidian cavalry: these are the 'annoying little buggers' of my army - can charge enemy rear at a push too. Brill unit. They usually suffer no more than 5-10% and kill aprox 250 enemy per battle.
roman camilian equites: basically shite and suprisingly bad.
roman leve slingers: apparently they are the weakest slinger in the game but with some silver chevrons they do just fine. I expect these to kill around 200+ enemy if i can bring them to bear. shame their formation is totally massive.
leve hopilites (greek): They die a bit more quickly than their grown up counterparts but they are pretty flexible.
bad units, or ones i find a bit useless on the price/performance ratio would be most if not all heavy cavalry (why spend all that when infantry can do the job, suffer no more casualties and cost less), most celtic guys like the sword mercs, elephants (read 'waste of cash' - a bit like buying a lamborghini - shows you have too much money but no taste/grasp of tactics).
sorry no pics, im at work having a sneeky :laugh4:
No, wait, you don't grasp tactics. Do you understand concentration of force? Elephants are that - force concentrated in a small group of 6 beasts (on high setting). They are my fist. I bring elephants when I know the situation will get hairy. With just one group, I can beat an army half made up of Hellene elites twice the size of mine on hard battles. It can be done with extra units of the same cost, sure, but they would be numerous and unwieldy. Elephants are few and maneuverable. Keeping them away from javelins is generally a simple matter, and they will hardly even die.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosedavid
Definitely well worth the price. Similar principle applies to heavy cavalry.
Welcome to the .org, you two - and let's keep it nice and fluffy please; there is no such thing as "having no grasp of tactics" - there is merely "having a different opinion on ideal tactics"... ~D
Both of your approaches can be superior - it depends on what the enemy is fielding.
In fullstack vs fullstack confrontations I would tend to support the "concentration of force" argument; in same-total-unit-cost-on-both-sides-battles (which are usually multiplayer battles), it can be risky to use elephants because evading a human player's skirmishers is not going to be very easy.
And yes, under the right circumstances, akontistai can be a deadly damage-dealer. Under less ideal circumstances they can still be of use as living airbags...
It should also be mentioned that Elephants, like Gaesatae, force the enemy to concentrate a significant part of his force on these units in order to take them out. These "terror" units are always my missile target No. 1 (together with light HAs), because if they manage to reach your line safely, they'll cause a hell of a lot of problems.
About Akontistai (and Eastern Skirmishers; basically the same unit): They are useful for three things mainly:
1. garrison duty
2. kill Elephants
3. decimate enemy Phalanx (from behind of course).
Btw.: mounted skirmishers can also be very dangerous to Elephants, and they are much harder to catch than Akontistai. I'd wager that using Elephants against the Lusotannan is pretty much suicide, since every single one of their units (except slingers and the like) has got some nasty javelins and can hide behind every bloody tussock (yes, even the cavalry).
No offense intended, really. Just remarking that the statement in question is false and slightly out of line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachtmeister
I think the key to elephants is knowing when to use them. Generally, I keep them well back from the front and in a position to get to either flank fairly quickly. They usually only go forth when the melee has begun in earnest and most infantry javelins have been spent or there are very few free units of infantry to throw javelins at them. Other mobile units are good at keeping the enemy busy and away from the elephants, especially those skirmishers.
Skirmisher cavalry are indeed a real threat, but there's always the option of focusing archer fire on them. They wouldn't last long under withering fire from 2 or more groups of Kretikoi or other good archers. If there are only a small number of them left, they can't do very much harm and at most you can chase them around with a free FM or something. I've found that elephants can last under sparse javelin attacks, so there's no need to be overly worried if the threat has been significantly reduced.
Just my 2 mnai's worth. Now, back to lurking. And subjugating Romans - but they've been wiped out anyway. Oh well :smash:
If they are surprisingly good, then anything is. They are THE weakest unit in EB, save for their javelins. However, if a unit is pursuing them, they will not have time to loosen more than 1-2 volleys. Then one must decide to flee or fight. Fight will mean death. Fleeing is indecisive. Given a good commander, anything is great. This is, however, taking it a bit too far. I suppose. Maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilkku92
As for the elephants, I remember one time there was a single general left of a bodyguard. I was going to finish him off with Hoplitai, but I knew that would take at least a minute or two, all of which the general would hack my hoplites, one by one, with his high damage&lethality attack. It has already happened to me countless other times, and so I sent in my starting Epriote unit of Elepahantes Indikoi. The general himself was a Makedonian and had no traits raising his hitpoints (I check the traits before the battle).
And so I send in my elephants. Two minutes later the general is dead, but so is one of the elephants. The general had slain him with his sodding five-millimetre kopis. To make it worse, the falling elephant missed, and did not crush the general. Thankfully, the other elephants soon dispatched the valorous Makedonian, but the loss of an elephant undone was not.
Another time I used the same unit of elephants to attack another Mak army consisting of 7 Peltastai, 4 Thessalian Cavalry and 10 Hoplitai Haploi. That is not the number of units, but the number of soldiers (Large Unit Size). My elephants were full size, save for the single loss. End result of the battle? Crushed the Hoplites, routed the Peltastai, and then lost 2 elephants in a fight with with the 4 Thessalian horsemen. WTH? Needless to say, I reloaded.
Akontistai aren't bad. They eat elephants for breakfast and ... there's a lot of them...
Also, @ elephants. Mounted units vs elephants is a little unpredictable...
You mean, predictable? Elephants get a huge bonus against cavalry. Almost like the scythed chariots. Not to mention, mounted units always die quicker and more randomly. Unless they are 30+ armour catas/BGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
I know that they both have ridiculous cav bonuses, but it largely depends on the speed the elephant/chariot is going at so the results aren't always reliable.
Also one has to watch out to charge correctly, meaning that the enemy is standing still. If they move, then charge bonuses are almost nullified. A bit tricky. As Epeiros I use Elephants basically as nutcracker to crack open tough enemy (mostly AS) phalanx lines. As Eastern Greeks are able to recruit Klerouchoi Ph. which chew up my Ph. Deuteroi and Pezhetairoi are hard to replenish. Usually I have few heavy sword infantry units, mostly Thorakitai which do okay against Ph. but take quite some time defeating them. So an elephant charge is quite useful for decisively breaking the enemy main line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aelflune
hey, no worries mate/matess! All I was saying (read - my opinion) was that for me I don't want or need heavy cav or elephants.I can do the job with inf and light cav. I find using the hammer and anvil tactic with inf and cav pretty boring against the AI. It's a no brainer and they fall for it every time. As for tactics, I would imagine that lossing 80-10:1 against the enemy makes my tactics pretty good, especially when i'm not using elite troops such as elephants and heavy cav.
Anyway, i don't want to get annoyed or anything, you have your methods, i have mine. It's good that the games flexible eh? :2thumbsup:
Personally, I prefer quality than quantity, and so I tend to have smaller stacks of decent units (not necessarily elites at all). This is why I'm sometimes unsurprisingly heavily outnumbered, even by stacks that contain quite a few elites. Under such circumstances, I've learned the tactical advantage concentration of force grants.
Surprisingly bad: Loricati Scutari: yesterday one unit of these lost by one unit of lousitanian light infantry :no:
I think i wont train them anymore...
If the Luso infantry had falcatas, then it should be no surprise. Even the lowliest AP infantry will badly chew up or even win against the heavily-armoured elites. The Luso light infantry was basically fighting only against the half-armour versions of the Loricati Scutaris. Not to mention, they were also more numerous, and had something like 6 javelins. Do not let that stop your recruitment of Scutaris. Just remember to be careful with your elites when you face AP infantry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebivjetar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus
O, i didn't know that Luso infantry have AP weapon. Thanx for information :2thumbsup:
Anyway i get reforms and i'm able to train Iberian assault infantry. Didn't try them on Lusos because they're wiped out by now. But on Ptolies they do their job: 2-3 elite african pikemen+ 2 of Ib. assault inf. and ptolie phalanx=:skull: :whip:
I think all overhand spear cavalry is not as good as they should be, the overhand spear charge effect is negligible. They are somewhat better in pursuing routing opponents, but I would rather use light cavalry for that purpose. Up close the western overhand fighters usually dont fight good.. The eastern ones though do so, because they have AP(IIRC) axes up close.
So I'm especially talking about these, especially the Roman Equites and Greek Hippeis.
Suprisingly BAD
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...kh_hippeis.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...an_eqvites.gif
The secondary weapons of these units dont make up for their weak charge.
On the other hand I find some types of light cavalry extremely useful, javelin throwing cavalry with short spears or simple light spear cavalry can usually deliver a nice charge. These troops are not really good up close, but they dont need to do that, they are usually fast moving and have high stamina. Chasing routing opponents if a good use of them too, cutting down medium phalanx or something like that before they change their minds and decide to fight again.
I am talking about the Leuce Epos (Gallic light cavalry) or their mercenary equivalent, the Machimoi Hippeis and the Illyrian Light cavalry.
Suprisingly GOOD
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u..._leuceepos.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...oi_hippeis.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ioihippeis.gif
Even better are the extremely versatile steppe riders, picking off foes from a distance and able to deliver a nice charge.
The Steppe riders:
SUrprisingly AWESOME:yes:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...dirag_baex.gif
~Fluvius
Ethiopian cavalry.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u..._ethiopian.gif
They don't leave it at kicking @ss - they rip it right out, then follow it up with a thorough
prongulation process. Finishing moves included. 520mnai of sheer awesome juggernaught.
These guys are so badass that they do it for the entire duration of a battle - quicker to charge
and re-deploy than hetairoi, much more stamina - and effective against armor with a charge bonus of 30... Does it get any better?
-Yes it does; they have great morale (as long as you don't send them on suicide missions; they are not catanks).
They are making the Saba campaign fun in spite of countless battles severely outnumbered by Ptolemaioi every year and cut off from reinforcements.
SUCH a crazy battle-turner:
1x FM
1x Ethiopian cavalry
2x Sabaean levy spearmen
3x pantodapoi
1x Arabian light infantry
4x Arabian archer-spearmen
2x Arabian slingers
(it used to be 2x A. light inf. and 4x Sab. levy sp. without the pantodapoi as the army set out for conquest... And ALL units were severely depleted except for the archers)...
Against a Ptolemaic nearly-full stack of
Hetairoi
Thessalians
Prodromoi
Galatian heavy swordsmen
Galatian shortswordsmen
Assorted mix of klerouchoi phalangitai and thureophoroi to fill up the rest
(and one unit of akontistai)
... I lost 300 men. 3 of them were Ethiopian cavalry. The rest were pantodapoi and 20 Sabaeans (both lineholders). I should have lost that battle. Ethiopians are some kind of nuke. They have the power to first make, then pursue routers, return to the battle -- and do the next unit all the time until there are none left. And due to being effective against armor they kill routers extremely fast. No comparison to prodromoi or the likes. Looking for the melee cav that will kill a routing enemy general rather than keep missing? Here you go. And kill a 3/4 unit of thureophoroi - huge unit size - down to 10 men (which means they are certainly not coming back to the battle) in 15 seconds.
They have been performing similar feats ever since I first recruited them. 10 turnst straight without reinforcements. It takes something to impress me. These guys do.
:skull:.
I'd like to second the mention of the Komatai. I have a Getai campaign going and these guys formed the main line in my armies during my war with Macedonia. I was amazed at how well they'd hold even against some of Macedonia's elite troops, more than long enough for the Drapanai and cavalry to win the battles on the flanks, and easy to replace when they took heavy casualties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontline1944