Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
I Agree to Demosthenes's proposals to send the army to relieve and/or capture Pergamon and to strengthen our navy. I Disagree with the proposal to seek and alliance with the Epirotes. We should seek to make them a protectorate, or else assimilate them.
Change that to: Agree to make Epeiros our protectorate, or else.
02-15-2011, 16:36
Gaius Sempronius Gracchus
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowulf
I Agree to Demosthenes's proposals to send the army to relieve and/or capture Pergamon and to strengthen our navy.
I Disagree with the proposal to seek and alliance with the Epirotes. We should seek to make them a protectorate, or else assimilate them.
OOC To the latter...that's what I was trying to get at, but I worded it badly. So I shall change that to PROPOSE that we seek that the Epirotes become our protectorate, and if they refuse then we should take Dalminion and kill Helenos.
02-15-2011, 16:37
Biowulf
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Well I can agree to that then :)
02-15-2011, 18:32
Gaius Sempronius Gracchus
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Quote:
Therefore I PROPOSE that the Athenian 2nd Army support the Spartan 2nd Army in the upcoming siege of Serdike, and that Serdike is to remain neutal.
Arthouros, much as it is against my general nature to do so, your wisdom in this council having played no small part in the Koinon's many successes, I must DISAGREE with this proposal. It is not that I do not wish to offer aid to the Spartans, but rather that I see no reason for taking Serdike, provided that we take Dalminion and rid ourselves of Helenos Aikiades. But, reviewing the reports, it seems a reasonably large army has moved from Dalminion at some point before Helenos entered there. I think it is important that we know the whereabouts of this army, so that we may not be surprised by their re-appearance. Therefore I PROPOSE that, prior to our moving on Dalminion, we ascertain the whereabouts and extent of the missing army, and if needs be deal with it prior to Dalminion.
02-15-2011, 19:35
Molinaargh
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
This polis session is now over.
02-15-2011, 23:02
Molinaargh
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
257 BC
Athenian orders:
-Offer Epeiros to become a protectorate of the Koinon. Should they reject, conquer Dalminion and kill Helenos Aiakides. (See update!)
-2nd Athenian Army to assist the 2nd Spartan Army in the siege of Serdike. (Yes)
-Send the Athenian Army to relieve the siege of Pergamon. If the Seleukids conquer Pergamon, take it from them. (Yes)
-Strengthen the Athenian Fleet. (Yes)
-Poublios returns to Athens to finish his education. (Yes)
-Build roads and markets. (Not yet)
Spartan orders:
-Assault Serdike. The city should remain neutral in the Koinon. (Not yet)
-Attempt to assassinate Helenos Aiakides. (Yes)
-Improve recruitment in Sparte. (Yes)
-Improve the economy of Korinthos and Pella. (Yes)
-The establishment of a Spartan Agoge in Thermon is to be cancelled. A hellenic klerouchy is to be established instead. (Yes)
Dead Kings
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
The year of 257 BC began with a surprising offer. An eastern basileion called "Saba" sent an emissary to the Koinon in order to establish a new trade route. This route would go from their lands through Ptolemaic lands, our allies, and finally arrive in the ports of Hellas.
Another man was about to start his education as well, although it would be much different. The son of Eudamidas, the second Spartan King, was old enough to begin his training in the Agoge.
So there was no option but to destroy him and his barbaric holdings. The First Spartan Army moved out of Thermon, giving up on the establishment of a Spartan Agoge in the polis.
The Athenian 2nd Army, a force under training, was sent to help in the future attack by the Spartans against Serdike. Men from the "3rd" Spartan Army were also sent.
Helenos was dead. The last Aiakides, the last child of Pyrrhos, the last King of Epeiros. But the epeirote generals who had aided in the conquest of the north weren't ready to give up. Archiades Kathraios, an epeirote nobleman, had claims on the title of Basileus.
Fearsome barbarians were hired by Doros to reduce the difference in manpower between the garrison of Dalminion and the Alliance Army. But Doros was still outnumbered.
When he arrived, the Seleukids had apparently lost the battle against Pergamon. Not willing to return to Athenai without a victory, he decided to conquer the polis.
Nikanor established himself with the local nobility through marriage. He married Rhode, a woman from the Pergamese royal family. She was 6 years older than him, but still young and a strong political ally.
The attack on Serdike was only ready by the winter, and then the severe winter didn't allow Polemarchos Akrotatos to march any further. His men were extremely tired from marching all the way from Thermon.
Back in Pella, a rebellion began as soon as Damasos moved out of the polis. The Makedon dynasty may be dead, but the makedones still resist the Koinon's righteous rule.
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
I have a question: Since the Spartans decited to build a hellenic klerouchy instead of a Spartan Agogehe, shouldn't the relations be improving now?
My first proposal to the council is to build a hellenic klerouchy in Pergamon and my second is to improve the walls there.
02-16-2011, 01:04
Paltmull
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenlizard0.
I have a question: Since the Spartans decited to build a hellenic klerouchy instead of a Spartan Agogehe, shouldn't the relations be improving now?
My first proposal to the council is to build a hellenic klerouchy in Pergamon and my second is to improve the walls there.
I AGREE with both proposals.
I PROPOSE that we maintain the siege of Dalminion. Trying to assault it will be too costly.
I also PROPOSE that we strengthen the Alliance army, preferably by recruiting from the nearby cities. If there's not enough time before the Epirotes sally or Epirote reinforcements arrive, we should hire mercenaries instead.
02-16-2011, 02:34
Populus Romanus
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Would you guys be open to reinforcement by the Army of Sparte?
02-16-2011, 07:29
Greenlizard0.
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paltmull
I AGREE with both proposals.
I PROPOSE that we maintain the siege of Dalminion. Trying to assault it will be too costly.
I also PROPOSE that we strengthen the Alliance army, preferably by recruiting from the nearby cities. If there's not enough time before the Epirotes sally or Epirote reinforcements arrive, we should hire mercenaries instead.
Agreed.
A few proposals:
1: We should agree with a joint Athenian-Spartan army under the autority of Athens
2: Cities taken with that army must be neutral in the Koinons politics
I WITHRAW my proposal, convinced by Patmul's post somwhere down here.
02-16-2011, 13:43
Biowulf
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
I agree with Greenlizard0's first two proposals and to Paltmulls proposals.
I disagree with Greenlizard's last two because that sounds almost exactly like the Alliance Army except for it's control by Athenians and there's no way we could force the Spartans to contribute to an Athenian army.
02-16-2011, 15:03
diomede
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Wait, I am confused. Why did you conquer Pegamon if the purpose was to protect it? Also yes, I would hope to see the civil war meter revert to its pre-Thermon state.
@ Biowulf: Unless, of course, we change the law so that we may have more armies in general as our family tree expands. I do agree that for now, such a proposal is out of the question.
02-16-2011, 15:35
Paltmull
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenlizard0.
A few proposals:
1: We should agree with a joint Athenian-Spartan army under the autority of Athens
2: Cities taken with that army must be neutral in the Koinons politics
I DISAGREE!
02-16-2011, 16:01
diomede
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Athenians, a joint army has also been proposed in our halls. Here are the notes that my slave made:
Quote:
1)I PROPOSE the current 3rd Spartan Army be "gifted" to Athenai (to lower the civil war meter), but that we maintain partial control, such as the ability to recall it in the case of severe emergency
I personally am wary of allowing Spartan soldiers to die without a Spartan general, however as long as this army is used for the benefit of the Koinon above all others I am not too opposed. I would however prefer to see a Spartain take up a captaincy there.
This proposal is of specific interest to me as it aims to reduce the tension between us.
02-16-2011, 17:42
Paltmull
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
But if the army is to be used for Koinon interests it might as well be controlled by Sparta, right?
I don't like the idea anyway. If many Spartans would die in some devastating battle, for example, tensions are likely to increase rather than decrease. And if - the gods forbid - there would be a civil war, we wouldn't be too happy in having to deal with a revolting Spartan army.
So thanks for the kind offer, but I think we should turn it down.
02-16-2011, 18:05
Biowulf
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
I think the best action would be for us to ask Sparta for reinforcements for the Alliance Army, or for Sparta to volunteer them. Either one would work. All this nonsense about gifting armies or having a joint Athenian/Spartan army under control of one city isn't going to help right now.
02-16-2011, 18:49
diomede
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowulf
I think the best action would be for us to ask Sparta for reinforcements for the Alliance Army, or for Sparta to volunteer them. Either one would work. All this nonsense about gifting armies or having a joint Athenian/Spartan army under control of one city isn't going to help right now.
I like your stance.
02-16-2011, 20:33
Gaius Sempronius Gracchus
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Like you, Diomede, I am perturbed by Nikanor's actions regarding Pergamon. It seems he has overstepped his remit from the Athenian council. Was he so interested in the glory of his own name? Now we have the Seleucids on our borders, and we have subjugated a free polis. Our reputation has been damaged by his actions, as has our security.
I would like to respond to Populus Romanus' suggestion regarding our armies at Dalminion being assisted by the Spartan army. I speak for myself, but can only imagine that many..., many here will agree, that the suggestion of aid is most welcome and makes great sense. I AGREE with Paltmull on this, that we maintain the siege of Dalminion. I AGREE also with his proposal to reinforce the Athenian army, even with mercenaries if need be BUT... if the Spartan army is sent to our aid, then we would have no need of expensive mercenaries.
I also AGREE with Greenlizards second proposal, that we build and improve the defences at Pergamon. I DISAGREE with building a Klerouchy there and would PROPOSE instead that it be an allied and autonomous province (level IV) - especially given the circumstances of our taking of the city.
02-16-2011, 20:43
Gaius Sempronius Gracchus
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Quote:
Originally Posted by diomede
Athenians, a joint army has also been proposed in our halls. Here are the notes that my slave made:
I personally am wary of allowing Spartan soldiers to die without a Spartan general, however as long as this army is used for the benefit of the Koinon above all others I am not too opposed. I would however prefer to see a Spartain take up a captaincy there.
This proposal is of specific interest to me as it aims to reduce the tension between us.
Diomede, I am in agreement with Paltmull on this offer by the Spartan council, but I will say that I am heartened by the prevailing sense of co-operation that I see blossoming both here and in the council of Sparte. It seems there is a real will to make this alliance work, to the benefit of both of our cities, and our people....and all people of Hellas. Let it be known in Sparte that, while we would decline the offer, it is meant as no dishonour to Sparte, and that the offer - and the sentiment behind that offer - has been welcomed. As has, and we Athenians should not overlook it, the Spartan's renunciation of the Agoge in Thermon.
As a final point...., for now, I PROPOSE, given the new situation in Asia, that we send scouts to ascertain the strength of those states immediately on our borders. I believe we may have to strengthen our military position there.
02-16-2011, 21:06
Arthur, king of the Britons
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
@Molinaargh I just wanted to stop by and say that I'll most likely not make a "proposal collection" thing this in-game year, got some timeconsuming RL stuff to deal with atm.
02-16-2011, 22:07
Molinaargh
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
This session is now over. Demosthenes's second proposal passes out of this messenger's respect for him, while the first one doesn't due to democracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur, king of the Britons
@Molinaargh I just wanted to stop by and say that I'll most likely not make a "proposal collection" thing this in-game year, got some timeconsuming RL stuff to deal with atm.
No problem! This one was pretty easy.
02-16-2011, 23:56
diomede
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Sempronius Gracchus
I also AGREE with Greenlizards second proposal, that we build and improve the defences at Pergamon. I DISAGREE with building a Klerouchy there and would PROPOSE instead that it be an allied and autonomous province (level IV) - especially given the circumstances of our taking of the city.
I am very heartened by this proposal. On behalf of Sparte I would like to support this motion.
02-17-2011, 01:42
Molinaargh
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
256 BC
Athenian motions:
-Maintain the siege of Dalminion. (Yes)
-Strengthen the Alliance Army, preferably by recruiting from the nearby cities. (Yes)
-Scout and report on the strength of the poleis in the Asian border. (Not yet)
-Build a hellenic klerouchy in Pergamon. (Yes)
-Improve the walls of Pergamon. (Not yet)
Spartan motions:
-Send Polemarchos Akrotatos to crush the rebellion in Makedonia. (Yes)
-Send Damasos and the now "Spartan Reserve Army" to aid the Alliance Army. (No)
-Begin training of the Spartan Expeditionary Force, 8 units strong. (Yes)
-1st Spartan Army now "Army of Sparte", 2nd Spartan Army now "Sparte Reserve Army". (Okay)
-Strengthen the Spartan navy. (Yes)
Dalmatian Riches
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Advised (and financed!) by the Athenian Council, Doros recruited more men to the Alliance Army. Since it was dangerous for reinforcements to travel from Hellas to the barbarian lands of Dalmatia, he hired local spearmen and hellenic settlers in the region.
But they were given no choice. Dalmatia was put under the Koinon's control by the might of the sword and the hoplon, and the few barbarians that were left in Dalminion were allowed to stay and continue their lives under the rule of the Koinon.
The garrison of Ipsos was eventually found. It was just outside our gates. Nikanor expected the Athenian Council to revere him as a great hero, but they shunned his conquest instead. And now a huge Seleukid army had his conquest under siege. Everything was falling apart.
Akrotatos, who had already performed what was asked of him by the Spartan Council, heard of the siege of Pergamon and embarked to aid the Athenians - and the Alliance.
But by the time he got to Pergamon, a new year had arrived, and he knew the Spartan Gerousia would send new orders for him and the Army of Sparte. The council could decide to leave Pergamon (and Nikanor) to their own fate, but abandoning Nikanor would bring much tension between Sparte and Athenai.
...the Spartans recruited the backbone of the Sparte Expeditionary Force, which was already under heavy training, as was Agis in the Agoge. It was expected that skirmishers and cavalry would be recruited next.
Even though it was against the Athenian Council's will, the conquest of Pergamon by Nikanor increased tension between the hegemonic poleis. The decision of not installing an Agoge in Thermon decreased this tension on Sparte's side.
https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png The polis session for 255 BC now open. I'd like to remind you that the Koinon Elections are now every 5 years instead of 4, and so elections will take place only by the end of next year.
02-17-2011, 06:11
Populus Romanus
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
I have proposed for the Army of Sparte to help break the Gazillionth Siege of Pergamon. Are you open to accepting it?
Also, you guys could give your armies names, if you wanted to.
02-17-2011, 07:25
Greenlizard0.
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
I am open to accept it, so I will do an aproposal to the counsel
1 Will we accept Spartan help in Pergamon?
And more:
2 Should we improve our economies with this years income (instead of spending money on troops)?
3 Should we install a type 4 goverment in Dalmonion?
02-17-2011, 08:34
Gaius Sempronius Gracchus
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
I AGREE to the proposal that we accept Spartan aid in the relief of Pergamon, and thank Populus Romanus. I PROPOSE, given that and the dropping of Spartan plans for an agoge in Thermon that we cease the building of the Klerouchy there and allow, instead, Pergamon to be an autonomous polis within the Koinon (level IV).
Congratulations to both Doros and Akrotates on their fine victories, our Koinon has fine men leading our armies. As for whether we spend our money on improving our economies or on military imrovements.... we have seen already the Seleucid response to our bordering their territories. As well as that, Serdike remains a threat north of Pella. I PROPOSE that we strengthen the garrison at Pergamon, if we manage to hold the city from Pergamon aggression.
02-17-2011, 09:49
Enyalio
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Eeuhm OOC:
What happened to the second Athenian Army? The guiding text on the chapter dead king made me believe that the force which now seems to be the Spartan reserve army, was Athenian.
02-17-2011, 13:19
Arthur, king of the Britons
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenlizard0.
I am open to accept it, so I will do an aproposal to the counsel
1 Will we accept Spartan help in Pergamon?
And more:
2 Should we improve our economies with this years income (instead of spending money on troops)?
3 Should we install a type 4 goverment in Dalmonion?
1. AGREE
2. Neutral.
3. AGREE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Sempronius Gracchus
I AGREE to the proposal that we accept Spartan aid in the relief of Pergamon, and thank Populus Romanus. I PROPOSE, given that and the dropping of Spartan plans for an agoge in Thermon that we cease the building of the Klerouchy there and allow, instead, Pergamon to be an autonomous polis within the Koinon (level IV).
Congratulations to both Doros and Akrotates on their fine victories, our Koinon has fine men leading our armies. As for whether we spend our money on improving our economies or on military imrovements.... we have seen already the Seleucid response to our bordering their territories. As well as that, Serdike remains a threat north of Pella. I PROPOSE that we strengthen the garrison at Pergamon, if we manage to hold the city from Pergamon aggression.
As much as it pains me I must DISAGREE with your proposal to make Pergamon an Allied Free Kingdom. This is not because I wish to expand Athenian range of influence, but rather the range of our democratic ideas. It was unfortunate that demokratia was brought to these people by ways of the sword, but as of now I believe it to be better to go through with the demokratia process of Pergamon. My love for our Athenian ideals is sometimes greater than my will to do what is best for our Koinon. My apologies. I AGREE with your proposal to strenghten the garrision at Pergamon.
I PROPOSE that all future polies conquered in Mikra Asia to be incorperated as Free Allied Kingdoms (IV), so that we may avoid similar situations in the future.
I PROPOSE that we recruit more troops in Athenai and loan them to the Spartiatai, to be used in the North.
I PROPOSE that we expand the economy of the polis Sparte; expanding the trading port, and/or the Agora, (as we hold the office of Hegemon)
I PROPOSE that we build the best possible barracks at Athenai (if we haven't done so already).
I PROPOSE that we build better/stone (?) walls around Pergamon, making the polis easier to defend from the Arche Seleukeia.
And when the Seleucid threat is dimished:
I PROPOSE that we expand the port of Pergamon, or if not feasible; that we expand the Agora instead.
02-17-2011, 14:51
Molinaargh
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enyalio
Eeuhm OOC:
What happened to the second Athenian Army? The guiding text on the chapter dead king made me believe that the force which now seems to be the Spartan reserve army, was Athenian.
Yes, the Athenian Council let those men go with the Spartan Army. They may be recalled.
Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai
Nice artwork. :2thumbsup:
@Molinaargh Are Free Allied Kingdoms (Type IV) governments still under some minimal influence from the polis that conquered them? And would my first, second and third proposal affect the Civil War Meter (assuming they are agreed upon), and if so perhaps one half of a "Civil War Block"?
