Syria

There are such things as benevolent dictatorships. Singapore springs to mind.

Democracies can and are subverted all the time.

The thing that makes a functioning democracy is also probably why most democracies out perform other government types and it isn't the form of government it is the prerequisite for it.

You need a functioning, educated and engaged citizenship who want to work hard and see the fruits of their labour for themselves and their society. A functioning democracy normally allows social mobility and a fair chance at it. The greater the disparity between the richest and poorest the less the social cohesion and the more likely a violent revolution will occur.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“But I guess that a first world quality country wouldn't need any torture dungeons to keep their populations from revolting, so obviously Yugoslavia didn't have any, right?” Just to add a little bit of oil on the fire, then add water: Can you remind me the position in the 50’s of the blacks in the US Democracy, and in what was engaged the Democratic France (in term of Repression, not bad) or the slaughter of the Indonesian Communists? I add Wounded Knees, in 1974, about the situation in the Indian Reserves, or the Natives in Australia.

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'Slaughter of Indonesian communists' do you have any more on that, new to me at least

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Originally Posted by Fragony

'Slaughter of Indonesian communists' do you have any more on that, new to me at least

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There's a new documentary coming out right now about it, looks amazing. Note that the genocide was also about ethnic Chinese as well as commies.

http://youtu.be/tQhIRBxbchU

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Originally Posted by Lemur

There's a new documentary coming out right now about it, looks amazing. Note that the genocide was also about ethnic Chinese as well as commies.

http://youtu.be/tQhIRBxbchU

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Just about everyone, pretty bloody affair. Almost all caribians and whites and mollucs where killed. But that Chinese and Communists also got targetted is new to me

Edit, allright you got me. That looks awesome.

As an update, The GOP Speaker and House Majority Leader are a green light for intervention. The Democratic President has also announced that CIA trained Syrian rebels are currently being deployed.

Great so how many years before the Syrian rebels become Al Qaeda Part Deux?

Because if you train them and then don't support then to the hilt they will hunt you down like a lover scorned. Just remember who Oliver North was worried about.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Great so how many years before the Syrian rebels become Al Qaeda Part Deux?

Because if you train them and then don't support then to the hilt they will hunt you down like a lover scorned. Just remember who Oliver North was worried about.

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This absolutely needs to be considered. I believe that it is being considered - heavily. I am in favor of using force where force is needed. I believe that a developing world where people don't have to have an active an present fear that they are going to be killed by government or private parties is in our best interests, both short and long term. I more broadly define U.S. interests than you seem to. As I have stated, multi-national oil companies don't present the same interests that I have, but a newly married college graduate in Syria does. I am more interested in making the Syrian safe than expanding the oil monopoly. I believe that the former action will do more to secure my own interests.

I concur and Australian interests are also broadly the same.

Kerry says if the regime becomes destabilized to the point that their chemical weapons are unsecured, we'd have to put boots on the ground....

This kind of seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy if the current plans are carried out doesn't it? :no:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Kerry says if the regime becomes destabilized to the point that their chemical weapons are unsecured, we'd have to put boots on the ground....

This kind of seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy if the current plans are carried out doesn't it? :no:

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AIPAC is waggin' the dog again...

More good news from Libya re:western intervention.

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Yet now Libya has almost entirely stopped producing oil as the government loses control of much of the country to militia fighters.

Mutinying security men have taken over oil ports on the Mediterranean and are seeking to sell crude oil on the black market. Ali Zeidan, Libya’s Prime Minister, has threatened to “bomb from the air and the sea” any oil tanker trying to pick up the illicit oil from the oil terminal guards, who are mostly former rebels who overthrew Muammar Gaddafi and have been on strike over low pay and alleged government corruption since July.

As world attention focused on the coup in Egypt and the poison gas attack in Syria over the past two months, Libya has plunged unnoticed into its worst political and economic crisis since the defeat of Gaddafi two years ago. Government authority is disintegrating in all parts of the country putting in doubt claims by American, British and French politicians that Nato’s military action in Libya in 2011 was an outstanding example of a successful foreign military intervention which should be repeated in Syria.

In an escalating crisis little regarded hitherto outside the oil markets, output of Libya’s prized high-quality crude oil has plunged from 1.4 million barrels a day earlier this year to just 160,000 barrels a day now. Despite threats to use military force to retake the oil ports, the government in Tripoli has been unable to move effectively against striking guards and mutinous military units that are linked to secessionist forces in the east of the country.

Libyans are increasingly at the mercy of militias which act outside the law. Popular protests against militiamen have been met with gunfire; 31 demonstrators were shot dead and many others wounded as they protested outside the barracks of “the Libyan Shield Brigade” in the eastern capital Benghazi in June.

Though the Nato intervention against Gaddafi was justified as a humanitarian response to the threat that Gaddafi’s tanks would slaughter dissidents in Benghazi, the international community has ignored the escalating violence. The foreign media, which once filled the hotels of Benghazi and Tripoli, have likewise paid little attention to the near collapse of the central government.

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We cannot help these people, but we can leave them alone.

People who are wrong as usual are mentally blocking the existance of Libya, Syria must be a godsend for those who knew, for a fact, that we had to aid the Libyan opposition. Real experts who know something warned against it, and as usual people who are wrong as usual are united in silence

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

As an update, The GOP Speaker and House Majority Leader are a green light for intervention. The Democratic President has also announced that CIA trained Syrian rebels are currently being deployed.

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Such great news! Now the arms industry doesn’t need to worry about beget cuts. There will be lots of money for campaign contributions. Hooray! Of course gas and oil prices will go up too, after all, there is a war within 6,000 miles of an oil field. So they thank you too.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I wish they would rule out ground-troops. My support for intervention is absolutely not shared by my friends who are still in the service.

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Right! Can’t you think of why that might be? Hazard pay is to be cut, Their yearly pay raise is capped at 1%. Everyone E-6 and below is eligible for food stamps. They see how valuable they are to society and how much putting their lives on the line for these people matters.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Kerry says if the regime becomes destabilized to the point that their chemical weapons are unsecured, we'd have to put boots on the ground....

This kind of seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy if the current plans are carried out doesn't it? :no:

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The idea of yet another war, and one where our friends are as much or more of a threat than the enemy is not very appealing.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Great so how many years before the Syrian rebels become Al Qaeda Part Deux?

Because if you train them and then don't support then to the hilt they will hunt you down like a lover scorned. Just remember who Oliver North was worried about.

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Quite so!


I am so glad some of you have a such a high minded goal in mind, to stop the suffering of others.

Just remember that when the bodies pile up, and how much good you have done.

Sorry, Republicans may throw them a bone now and again and verbally support them to keep up moral but this is not new.

Big budgets go for big toys. Tanks are a bargain at $4.35 million. A Blackhawk is over $5 million. Apaches are $61 million and fighter jets are $150 million and the ammo would buy a couple of hummers per round. People are cheap. Intensive air missions cost more than deploying troops. Putting troops on the ground is a great opportunity for defense contractors. More broken stuff means more money too. Everyone makes money. Except Snuffy that is getting shot at.

Military pay has not kept up with inflation. An E-7 makes about what a McDonald’s manager does. A 3 star pulls down about 100k. Not great by civilian standards for what they do. Want to figure what that would be per hour if they punched a time clock?

Kewl. Russia claims it has evidence the rebels used gas. Which of course makes a lot more sense.

Tough spot for Dronebame, still want to attack Dronebama if it turns out that everybody with some common sense were right.

Drones -> rebels

Assad :sweetheart:

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“But I guess that a first world quality country wouldn't need any torture dungeons to keep their populations from revolting, so obviously Yugoslavia didn't have any, right?” Just to add a little bit of oil on the fire, then add water: Can you remind me the position in the 50’s of the blacks in the US Democracy, and in what was engaged the Democratic France (in term of Repression, not bad) or the slaughter of the Indonesian Communists? I add Wounded Knees, in 1974, about the situation in the Indian Reserves, or the Natives in Australia.

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Wouldn't putting oil on the fire correcting the poster (whoever it is as I cannot find it) that Yugoslavia was a second world country and not the first?

First was defined as the West, Second was defined as the USSR and friends, Third is developing economies and Fourth being basket cases.

No, the US Administration has already said they will IGNORE anyone else’s findings. They have already jumped to the conclusion they find most beneficial.

The Congressional Leaderships is all fawning over the idea of spending a Billion or so to blast the hell out of Syria and send in trained proxies to “secure” the chemical weapons. Read secure as blow up, because they won’t have a fleet of trucks and a controlled disposal site.

Just tell me how blowing up chemical stockpiles is ever so much safer and humane and going to protect the civilian population?

We have a poison gas problem. Most of the poisonous gasses are coming from politicians.

Boots on the ground doesn't just mean Iraq/afghan style occupation. It can also mean targeted exfiltrations, assassinations, and sabotage by special forces. This approach coupled with strategic bombings over the course of 6 months to 1 year is my strategy and it is the one which they will likely use.

The Army is a waste of money full stop, at this point in American history. Their use is related to large scale symmetrical warfare (Russia, China), or in occupational restructuring (and they've proven themselves to be largely inept at that in Afghanistan and Iraq). I would imagine that, given the failure of the Army to produce favorable results over the past 12, that it will be relegated to status similar to a reserve or national guard. The functional US military at this stage is the Navy, Air force, Marines, and Army Special Forces. US army is an occupation and engineering security force built for a different time and dramatically different style of warfare.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Assad :sweetheart:

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One of the more disturbing things you have said.

Assad needs to step down, even if power is handed over to one of his cronies. It would have allowed peace talks and settling the issue. However, Assad is a tyrant and there is only a handful of solutions to what Plato describes as the opposite of a good and "true king".

Before you make up stories on how I love the rebels, I will put it in this way. Just because you oppose Stalin, doesn't mean you should get into bed with Hitler. There are alternatives to both.

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

One of the more disturbing things you have said.

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Ha, but that is really what Obama will have to do after banging the wardrums over the chemical attacks, and if it turns out it were the rebels who actually did it. Peculiar situation don't mind me mocking it

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Boots on the ground doesn't just mean Iraq/afghan style occupation. It can also mean targeted exfiltrations, assassinations, and sabotage by special forces. This approach coupled with strategic bombings over the course of 6 months to 1 year is my strategy and it is the one which they will likely use.

The Army is a waste of money full stop, at this point in American history. Their use is related to large scale symmetrical warfare (Russia, China), or in occupational restructuring (and they've proven themselves to be largely inept at that in Afghanistan and Iraq). I would imagine that, given the failure of the Army to produce favorable results over the past 12, that it will be relegated to status similar to a reserve or national guard. The functional US military at this stage is the Navy, Air force, Marines, and Army Special Forces. US army is an occupation and engineering security force built for a different time and dramatically different style of warfare.

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Tell you what, you like the idea of boots on the ground, you should enlist. So should Congress, or at least send in their sons and daughters.

Fighting insurgents is not the same as fighting regular forces. You can’t tell friend from foe. Sure there is the Syrian Army but they have their own insurgents and even those who want the government crushed don’t want us there.

The air strikes just make us Al Qaeda’s air force, which is bad enough.

In Syria now we have two enemies fighting. If you saw two thug gangs in the street going at it with knives, would you jump in the middle to break it up?

That is exactly what you want our troops to do!

https://i.imgur.com/tZGujGx.jpg

Do you think this guy is the only one that feels this way?

Get Real!


Marines, SF, and Air Force were in the same places the Army was. I didn’t see them making any greater headway in fighting this kind of war than anyone else.

There are two ways to handle it. You kill everyone and go home or you occupy with an iron fist and wait a generation or two. Which do you prefer?

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Kerry says if the regime becomes destabilized to the point that their chemical weapons are unsecured, we'd have to put boots on the ground....

This kind of seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy if the current plans are carried out doesn't it? :no:

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Kerry may as well be wearing a miniskirt and pompoms at this point. Like ATPG said, AIPAC must be working him hard...

I'd like us all to remember what happened last time we tried to punish a dictator with bombs.

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Though the Nato intervention against Gaddafi was justified as a humanitarian response to the threat that Gaddafi’s tanks would slaughter dissidents in Benghazi, the international community has ignored the escalating violence. The foreign media, which once filled the hotels of Benghazi and Tripoli, have likewise paid little attention to the near collapse of the central government.

The strikers in the eastern region Cyrenaica, which contains most of Libya’s oil, are part of a broader movement seeking more autonomy and blaming the government for spending oil revenues in the west of the country. Foreigners have mostly fled Benghazi since the American ambassador, Chris Stevens, was murdered in the US consulate by jihadi militiamen last September. Violence has worsened since then with Libya’s military prosecutor Colonel Yussef Ali al-Asseifar, in charge of investigating assassinations of politicians, soldiers and journalists, himself assassinated by a bomb in his car on 29 August.

Rule by local militias is also spreading anarchy around the capital. Ethnic Berbers, whose militia led the assault on Tripoli in 2011, temporarily took over the parliament building in Tripoli. The New York-based Human Rights Watch has called for an independent investigation into the violent crushing of a prison mutiny in Tripoli on 26 August in which 500 prisoners had been on hunger strike. The hunger strikers were demanding that they be taken before a prosecutor or formally charged since many had been held without charge for two years.

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It's pretty much a terrorist playground now. And we want to do the same in Syria.

Kudos, but this can't be right though 'Ethnic Berbers, whose militia led the assault on Tripoli in 2011, temporarily took over the parliament building in Tripoli' as far as I know they are a minority that lives in South-Marroco and the occupied western-sahara, but not beyond there. Must be bedouins, not berbers

There actually is a small Berber minority in Libya. Qaddafi himself comes from an arabized Berber background.

Seriously?

Someone on a total war forum doesn't know they can recruit berber units in Libya...?

Not to mention that Berbers aren't Moroccan minority, but a group of people that inhabits the territory from Atlantic ocean to Egypt and there's app. 40 million of them.

Minority by Chinese standards maybe.

It's possible they signed up with the naive idea that the US wouldn't do something so obviously stupid as to back the jihadi side of a foreign civil war for no benefit to the United States.

In case you had any doubt about what a buffoon John Kerry is, this should settle it:

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KERRY: Well, we don’t know what action we are engaged in right now, but they have been quite significant. I mean, very significant. In fact, some of them have said that if the U.S. is prepared to go do the whole thing, the way we’ve done it previously in other places, they’ll carry that cost. That’s how dedicated they are to this. Obviously, that is not in the cards and nobody is talking about it, but they are talking about taking seriously getting this job done.

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That was his response to a question about how supportive Arab nations are about action in Syria.
They'll pay the costs... if we "go do the whole thing". So we're mercenaries now? Shouldn't Kerry have been at least a little insulted by such an offer? Who made it? Bear in mind, this is John Kerry- renowned anti-war activist.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

In case you had any doubt about what a buffoon John Kerry is, this should settle it:

That was his response to a question about how supportive Arab nations are about action in Syria.
They'll pay the costs... if we "go do the whole thing". So we're mercenaries now? Shouldn't Kerry have been at least a little insulted by such an offer? Who made it? Bear in mind, this is John Kerry- renowned anti-war activist.

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Well we might as well go whole-hog on the Hessians business. We can even give our troops fancy hats.