Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

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Originally Posted by Watchman

*shrug* Barb units get a minor freebie stat boost, so there's that too.

Note however that the Pontic Thoras are faster, have lower MIC preqs, and IIRC are more widely available. All together, the two really fill a different tactical niche.

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Well, that's the point. I wanted to use them as flank infantry in my armies, but they failed that role. Anyway how would you use them?

I am not sure if anyone has mentioned Dacian Archers, since this thread is almost 20 pages long now - and it is the third such thread on this topic - but I will suggest that Dacian archers are unexpectedly good. I normally don't expect much from archers, they are usually support troops with a few exceptions, but I recently invaded Dacia in a game as Epiros and I found the common rabble of Archers to be an effective enemy. To be fair, I've not used the Dacian Archers as troops myself, but as opponents they were unexpectedly tough. I fought a bridge battle, and eventually my troops destroyed the enemies heavy infantry, and I readied my cavalry for a final charge into the force of archers on the bridge, who, having used up their arrows, were now crowding it for melee fighting. When I zoomed in, expecting to see a Holocaust of dead archers, I instead realized that they were all spear men. I eventually crushed them and took the bridge, but I was impressed at their staying ability in the face of superior troops (especially against my Heavy cav charge). In a sense they are the western (barbarian) variant of the more well known archer/spearmen of the East. A spear is especially valuable to archers, as they must be able to deal with charges of cavalry in the rear of a formation, and the unexpected ability of these soldiers to help (temporarily) hold the line against heavy infantry as well makes the common Dacian Archers an unexpectedly good unit...

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Originally Posted by Tartaros

i remember a epeiros game where i fight nearly all battle very successfull with hippeis. there was no need for other cavalary.

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How did you use them? Their charge is basically worthless, since their spear is overhand.

I wouldn'y say worthless. I do agree they are worse than lancers like Prodromoi, or even guys like Lonchophoroi with the underhand grip but they can be used to a good effect.

Maion

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

I wouldn'y say worthless.

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They are good for pursuing routers and chasing missile troops (although to effectively combat those you need the underhand spear/lance cavalry). I suppose they can do rear charges, but besides a small morale drop, I doubt their ability to inflict damage. So why settle for lousy and overpriced Hippeis when Prodromoi, Illyrian Cavalry, Leuce Epos/Curepos will do the same but have a lower price in addition to increased endurance?

Indeed, I agree. But do not forget that southern Greek states had a real difficulty fielding a considerable cavalry continent due to the rocky terrain and hoplite tradition. Thessalia and Makedonia were exceptions, as was of course Taras. This goes for the overprice complaint.

Maion

Hey! The Hippies aren't overpriced, their cost is calculated just the same as everyone else's. *Romans*, OTOH, do take a like 20% price hike to the Equites...

Anyways, while they're certainly unspectacular, they work. Better than nothing (or mere Hippakonstistai), anyway. Repeat charge enough into an engaged enemy's rear and you should get results, plus, well, they're pretty cheap and widely available as cavalry goes.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Hey! The Hippies aren't overpriced

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Their cost is overpriced game-wise. Historically, their cost is as is should be. "Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition" thread is about gameplay, and not history. And it is HIPPEIS NOT HIPPIES!!! :furious3::furious3::whip::no:

:clown:

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Their cost is overpriced game-wise.

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Believe the guy who's done the math often enough, no it isn't.

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And it is HIPPEIS NOT HIPPIES!!! :furious3::furious3::whip::no:

:clown:

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I know. But Hippies are funnier. :devilish:

Did two posts just get deleted?

Hippakontistai are way far better than hippeis... they are useful for clean routers effectively, especially their javelins made the romans as javelin-cushion...

Hippakontistai are awesome light cavalry.

Numidians on the other hand...

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now honestly, they're not bad. It's just they tend to not perform well with people whose playing style don't match the nature of the unit.

All units in EB have their roles and uses, and fare quite well when their qualities are used to the fullest. surely I'll be complaining (for more than just being 'suprisingly bad' :clown:) if I use Hastati as lineholders instead of my trusty hellenes.....

What is the best way to use overhand spear cav? I never have much luck with them. :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by satalexton

now honestly, they're not bad. It's just they tend to not perform well with people whose playing style don't match the nature of the unit.

All units in EB have their roles and uses, and fare quite well when their qualities are used to the fullest. surely I'll be complaining (for more than just being 'suprisingly bad' :clown:) if I use Hastati as lineholders instead of my trusty hellenes.....

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You can only really use overhand spear cav to chase routers and intercept enemy cavalry squadrons. If they have AP secondary weapons, then they can kick the crap out of enemy generals. They're really not good for much else.

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Originally Posted by HansDuet

Hippakontistai are awesome light cavalry.

Numidians on the other hand...

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Hey, Numidians can charge pretty damned well. Just don't keep them in melee or they'll get slaughtered.

Overhanded spear cavalry is handy for a flanking moves too... especially when charging cavalry couldn't find a good time to couch their lances....

But 4 chevroned hippakontistai will fare better...

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

Overhanded spear cavalry is handy for a flanking moves too... especially when charging cavalry couldn't find a good time to couch their lances....

But 4 chevroned hippakontistai will fare better...

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OK, that mas lame. With the same rationale 9 chevroned Apeleutheroi will beat the crap out of them even with a single stone hail.

Maion

4 chevroned hippakontistai is relatively easy to get... just use them as flankers, put their javelins on those pesky infantry, and charge their back... everyone accustomed with HA tactics should know well, rinse repeat tactics.... but with hippakontistai, it gets somewhat tricky, the core is the timing...

*brings archers, kills 4 chevron hippakontistai*

*Rides over archers with hippakontistai*

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Originally Posted by satalexton

if I use Hastati as lineholders instead of my trusty hellenes.....

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Hey, they are actually marvellous. I am draining Roma' population in my current Eperios campaign just to get Hastati. They get a weapons/armour upgrade+2 chevrons upon recruitment (due to TypeII Gov and a Gym in that city). They are my prime flankers and they also distinguished themselves in several sieges, where they held the walls against various enemies.

Such as those four units of Hastati (3 experience) who held stone-walled Ippone against a fresh fullstack of Kart-Hadastim Maure Infantry (the longsword blokes with javelins), Liby-Phoencian Spearmen (heavy phalanx), Garmantine Infantry, Numdian Skirmishers and Lybian Spearmen. The battle started out with the enemies losing their ram but getting two sets of ladders and a siege tower to the walls. Shortly after, they began pouring out. My Hastati defeated them all, down to the last, just as they were disembarking from ladders, or in direct combat on the wall (although only with the enemies coming out of the siege tower).

Result: Heroic Victory, with two full units of Hastati and one 8-man unit left.

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Originally Posted by HansDuet

*Rides over archers with hippakontistai*

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Lol? *Places Cretan Archers in defense mode, no skirmish, and orders them to keep firing instead of melee.*

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Hey, they are actually marvellous. I am draining Roma' population in my current Eperios campaign just to get Hastati. They get a weapons/armour upgrade+2 chevrons upon recruitment (due to TypeII Gov and a Gym in that city). They are my prime flankers and they also distinguished themselves in several sieges, where they held the walls against various enemies.

Such as those four units of Hastati (3 experience) who held stone-walled Ippone against a fresh fullstack of Kart-Hadastim Maure Infantry (the longsword blokes with javelins), Liby-Phoencian Spearmen (heavy phalanx), Garmantine Infantry, Numdian Skirmishers and Lybian Spearmen. The battle started out with the enemies losing their ram but getting two sets of ladders and a siege tower to the walls. Shortly after, they began pouring out. My Hastati defeated them all, down to the last, just as they were disembarking from ladders, or in direct combat on the wall (although only with the enemies coming out of the siege tower).

Result: Heroic Victory, with two full units of Hastati and one 8-man unit left.

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I agree, do not underestimate Hastati, especially Polybian Hastati. They hold lines quite well and their good maneuverability makes them excellent phalanx breakers to boot.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Lol? *Places Cretan Archers in defense mode, no skirmish, and orders them to keep firing instead of melee.*

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Why such expensive troops? Just get some cheap Arab Archer-Spearmen for the job. Should be able to deal with light skirmisher cavalry, regardless of chevrons.
Speaking of lol: I once destroyed a unit of Scythed chariots and a unit of Asian Hippakontistai at once with only one unit of these Archer-Spearmen... the Artificial Idiocy sent in the chariots first...

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Originally Posted by Xurr

I agree, do not underestimate Hastati, especially Polybian Hastati. They hold lines quite well and their good maneuverability makes them excellent phalanx breakers to boot.

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Yeah, although I was using the Camillians, as they are regionals available to anyone who is in that area.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Why such expensive troops? Just get some cheap Arab Archer-Spearmen for the job. Should be able to deal with light skirmisher cavalry, regardless of chevrons.
Speaking of lol: I once destroyed a unit of Scythed chariots and a unit of Asian Hippakontistai at once with only one unit of these Archer-Spearmen... the Artificial Idiocy sent in the chariots first...

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That reminds me of the 3 times I fought chariots with Baktria and they died upon contact with the super heavy katanks.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Lol? *Places Cretan Archers in defense mode, no skirmish, and orders them to keep firing instead of melee.*

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I thought we were talking about some Toxotai.

I absolutely love archer-spearmen.

Most people here seem to like Javelin using cavalry, but how do you use them? The only time I think of training javelin cavalry is when I might run into Elephants (two units of any kind Kill indian Eles wery fast so I think the kill african ones even faster....).

But most often I don't use them unless I have not other missile cavalry availeable or any horsemen fast enough to hunt down all routers.

High end ones are actually pretty good against high end shock cavalry, plus you can always throw stuff into the backs of some gaulz.