Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

I used Hippakonstistai extensively early in my Epirus campaign against the Romans. At that time I had no real heavy infantry to match the Roman except some Thorakitai (the Romans always flanked any phalangites so I had to change my doctrine for the Italic theater of war). While the Roman formations marched towards my lines, my hippakontistai would ride ahead and pepper the Roman Principes with javelins from the sides and behind or even lure them into chasing them (the hippakontistai, I mean) thus minimizing the heavy-Roman-infantry-impact on my own lines. As the fight drawns on, my hippakontistai return to the main battle line and shower the Romans from behind with their last volley and then charge the Romans who are already exhausted from the march and the fight and quickly broke and fled.
It take a bit of time to really learn the right timing with hippakontistai. Timing is everything, otherwise you get chewed. If you master the use of javelin cavalry however you got a cheap and very very handy tool against heavy infantry (that's the unit type I use my javelin cavalry against).

I've got a soft spot for my Thessalian Heavy Cavalry. Perform well in my Epirus campaign.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...hessalikoi.gif

Sometimes it is also possible to take out the enemy general with a charge of a couple light cavalry units. The stupid AI likes to keep its general on the flank so you just run a few light cavalry units there to surround the general and charge all at once.Greatly outnumbered and charged from all sides the general is often killed on the first charge.
I used to try to pick off the general with the light cav's javelins but I would just end up using all the javelins and more often than not have the general still alive. One battle where I had already used my javelins on other units I decided to try taking out the general with my cavalry. This was done using numidians against the seleukid general.It worked very well and I took minimal casualties. It wasn't just a stroke of luck of a weak enemy general because I used it for a good number of battles in my Romani campaign everytime with consistent results, unless of course there were other enemy cavalry units nearby that would pose a problem as they would charge into the backs of my numidianswhile they were chopping down their general.
I don't do this anymore though. I think it is a bit too cheap. Sure we all take advantage of the incompetent AI at times, but this was pushing it a little bit IMO

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

4 chevroned hippakontistai is relatively easy to get... just use them as flankers, put their javelins on those pesky infantry, and charge their back... everyone accustomed with HA tactics should know well, rinse repeat tactics.... but with hippakontistai, it gets somewhat tricky, the core is the timing...

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You don't get it. It's lame to say a unit is better than the other, if you give them 4 chevrons.

Maion

Ok, ok maion... I surrender...:argue::surrender:

But then, explain to me... why my hippakontistai tend to get chevrons more quickly than my Hetairoi, or Molossianagema? :charge:
If u argue I get hippakontistai earlier, that wasn't, my experience with 2 units trained at the nearly same tie, and fought in same battle proves that... Hippakontistai kills more...

I think experience has to do with the kind of units you killed (price, stats, etc.). Since Hetairoi are on the top of the unit roster stat- and moneywise they'd have to kill quite a few more units than Hippakontistai to get experience.

apart from that Hippakontistai kill a lot of guys before going into melee and thus automatically have the better kill/loss ratio.

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

Ok, ok maion... I surrender...:argue::surrender:

But then, explain to me... why my hippakontistai tend to get chevrons more quickly than my Hetairoi, or Molossianagema? :charge:
If u argue I get hippakontistai earlier, that wasn't, my experience with 2 units trained at the nearly same tie, and fought in same battle proves that... Hippakontistai kills more...

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My guess is because you use the Hippakontistai to run down fleeing units. They get experience for any kills they make regardless of how they do it. I know my cavalry gets all kinds of exp doing this.

While on the topic of experience; how exactly is it calculated?
There is obviously more to it than just kills as sometimes units that were not even anywhere close to any fighting (and have 0 kills) gain experience while units that have hundreds of kills do not get a single point.

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Originally Posted by Fierro

While on the topic of experience; how exactly is it calculated?
There is obviously more to it than just kills as sometimes units that were not even anywhere close to any fighting (and have 0 kills) gain experience while units that have hundreds of kills do not get a single point.

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I think experience is actually a number of different things. These include kills, number of battles, using siege equipment etc. I've even had recently retrained units who take causalities in combat actually lose experience. So there are quite a number of factors being taken into account.

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Originally Posted by Xurr

I think experience is actually a number of different things. These include kills, number of battles, using siege equipment etc. I've even had recently retrained units who take causalities in combat actually lose experience. So there are quite a number of factors being taken into account.

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It seems to me that individual soldiers in a unit have their own experience level. Whether or not they actually fight at that level or not on the battlemap, I don't know.
For example, a unit with 1/4 of its soldiers with 5 chevrons gets retrained at a city with no experience boosting buildings. All those new soldiers are new unexperienced soldiers and so the overall experience of the unit gets bumped down to 3 chevrons.
Merging a higher experienced unit into a lower experienced unit also sometimes raises the experience of the unit absorbing the soldiers. Likewise merging a lower experienced unit into a higher experienced one can lower the experience of the unit.
Another clue to this is when a unit suffers casualties on the battlefield and actually gains experience from it. My theory would be that enough less experienced soldiers were removed from the unit to bump up the average experience enough to warrant a chevron upgrade. This is sometimes negated when casualties are healed, the battle statistics will show a certain unit receiving experience but upon examination on the campaign map they have the same experience they had before the battle, so all those less experienced soldiers who were killed allowing the unit to have a higher average experience came back along with their lower experience and lowered the unit's experience.

Of course this is purely speculation based on what I've observed. If it were correct my 7 experience unit with 1/8 of its soldiers getting retrained would not keep its gold chevron, it has happened several times though. So I really don't know. It also doesn't explain how whenever I merge units if I have one soldier left after merging that soldier always has no experience even if I was at two soldiers before with full gold chevrons.

How when and why experience is gained I have absolutely no clue about. I agree on many of the factors xurr mentioned, but then how much each plays into account and why they seem to sometimes be ignored I have no possible explanation.
I'm sure some people know

Surprisingly good- Eastern Axeman

I've tried them in a custom battle Baktria vs Seleukids and with a simple weapon upgrade (bronze) they rocks. They are fast, AP, javelin-throwers (with great range) and damn cheap. Properly used they can take down enough points to double their price!

They can't hold a line, i agree, but they are not supposed to do so. ;-)

I don't know, I used them because they are the coolest looking light infantry in the region, but they just die fast and kill slowly, I used them for flanking Seleukid phalanxes, then replaced them with thuerophoroi (can catch flaking cavalry), but I consider giving them second chance.

I have mixed feelings about javelin cavalry. They seem ineffective during the battle, but in battle results their kill ratio is surprisingly high. Does anyone know how to use them in max effect, I am interested both in units without CC like Leuce Epos and CC units like Arachosians. And do you use CC?
(CC = Cantabrian circle)

@Fierro

If you merge units their experience is dissipated between units, but if you retrain a unit it keeps its experience no matter how many soldiers the unit gains. This allows for an exploit - merge units if one unit will not be completely absorbed. The unit with a few (or even one) leftover soldiers can be retrained and keep its experience level - even if the unit had only one soldier! I personally roleplay that the experienced veterans of the unit take part in the training and elan building in the new recruits, or that the unit only allows veterans to join them. This does happen with some real world military units, but in game terms, without alex.exe (which allows a.i. retraining) it is probably only justifying an exploit.

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Originally Posted by Andronikos

I don't know, I used them because they are the coolest looking light infantry in the region, but they just die fast and kill slowly, I used them for flanking Seleukid phalanxes, then replaced them with thuerophoroi (can catch flaking cavalry), but I consider giving them second chance.

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Hehe i'm not saying they are very good AT ALL, they are SURPRISINGLY good XD. I tought they were only cannon fodder, but i surprisingly found them useful. They surely can die fast (lack of armour) but they have AP axes, so they are good for taking down overarmoured enemy units. For their price, they do what i want :beam: remember to keep them away from arrows (put them in second line when deploying) and use only for flanking!

With the mnai saved training them and not other melee infantry, i could afford some heavier unit :whip:

[QUOTE=Irishmafia2020;2264043]but if you retrain a unit it keeps its experience no matter how many soldiers the unit gains./QUOTE]
Everyone says that, but in my experience, retraining high experience units dilutes their chevrons proportionally to the amount of veterans remaining in the unit. Why so? Does no one else experience this?

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Everyone says that, but in my experience, retraining high experience units dilutes their chevrons proportionally to the amount of veterans remaining in the unit. Why so? Does no one else experience this?

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It seems a bit random to me; usually the experience goes down with retraining, but I've had other cases. For example, I once bribed a unit of Mori Gaesum that consisted of only 3 or so soldiers. These had, however, 2 gold chevrons (from fighting off countless Aedui and Arverni attacks). Upon retraining that unit, I was baffled to see that their experience level had remained unchanged! Now a gold chevroned Helvetii Pikemen unit (161 men) is a force to be reckoned with... Considering at how cheap a price I bought them from the Eleutheroi, it almost felt like cheating.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Everyone says that, but in my experience, retraining high experience units dilutes their chevrons proportionally to the amount of veterans remaining in the unit. Why so? Does no one else experience this?

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I have, innumerous times. It seems that te experience is simply shared between the newly recruited men upon retraining. So if you have a half depleted unit that gained 2 chevrons in a battle, replenishing them will result in a full-strength unit with one chevron. At least in theory, that is. Maybe the engine has some other way of "sharing" the experience gained by a unit upon retraining.

Maion

Your most experienced men are up in the first 2 rows though so its quite random what happens. If alot of your 0 experience men in the back die, then you'll retrain back up the same level. If you lose a lot of those super experienced front guys, and a lot of the back guys as well. The unit will appear to be at a high chevron level until it is retrained.

Its rather random. I believe all surviving men receive XP at the end of the battle though so the drop shouldn't be completely ridiculous.

Yeah, I've had the same experience with them. Speaking of overarmoured units, they (and the similiar Anatolian hillmen, etc.) have been quite useful in my Pontos campaign against enemy generals. I was really impressed, not really expecting much from the guys.

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Originally Posted by Mikhail Mengsk

Hehe i'm not saying they are very good AT ALL, they are SURPRISINGLY good XD. I tought they were only cannon fodder, but i surprisingly found them useful. They surely can die fast (lack of armour) but they have AP axes, so they are good for taking down overarmoured enemy units. For their price, they do what i want :beam: remember to keep them away from arrows (put them in second line when deploying) and use only for flanking!

With the mnai saved training them and not other melee infantry, i could afford some heavier unit :whip:

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I would say that the Ethiopian light spearmen commonly fielded by Saba are surprisingly good. Even when led by a captain (no morale boost from general) they stood up to my phalangites and various other units much longer than one would expect a unit of their level to be able to do without routing. I also charged right into their back with a full unit of armored elephants and not only did they refuse to rout, they took down one of the elephants within a few seconds... that elephant had to have been previously injured to drop so fast, but I am 95% sure that nothing had hit it before. Oh well, the game likes to throw me curve balls that leave me saying 'wtf?' quite often.

I have to say the Lusotann Light Spearman (Gestikipoinan?) are surprisingly good. :yes: They have the 4 defense shield which makes them tough to kill with missiles, especially useful in Iberia where every unit throws something. In addition, they have decent armor and defense skill plus a pretty good attack both melee and missile. They also have very good stamina and are fast moving! All this for a relatively cheap price. They can cause heavy casualties to a foe that is unprepared thinking he is facing a light spear unit. Basically they are exactly what erkdromoi hoplitai should be.:beam:

Thessalian cavalry is indeed one of the more remarkable heavy cavalry you can find, if a little expensive to be trained as mercenaries + skyhigh upkeep costs...

Favorite units cost-wise:
- Illyrian coastal levies. They'll stand their ground in some situations
- Slingers, they're dirt cheap and might do something useful
- Any heavy cavalry with underhand spear. They'll trash virtually any unit, regardless the numerical disadvantage you have.

I find myself relying on underhand-cavalry and slingers in any campaign I played (I don't play barbarian factions though).

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Originally Posted by Fierro

I would say that the Ethiopian light spearmen commonly fielded by Saba are surprisingly good. Even when led by a captain (no morale boost from general) they stood up to my phalangites and various other units much longer than one would expect a unit of their level to be able to do without routing. I also charged right into their back with a full unit of armored elephants and not only did they refuse to rout, they took down one of the elephants within a few seconds... that elephant had to have been previously injured to drop so fast, but I am 95% sure that nothing had hit it before. Oh well, the game likes to throw me curve balls that leave me saying 'wtf?' quite often.

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What battle difficulty did you play with?

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Originally Posted by Fierro

I would say that the Ethiopian light spearmen commonly fielded by Saba are surprisingly good. Even when led by a captain (no morale boost from general) they stood up to my phalangites and various other units much longer than one would expect a unit of their level to be able to do without routing. I also charged right into their back with a full unit of armored elephants and not only did they refuse to rout, they took down one of the elephants within a few seconds... that elephant had to have been previously injured to drop so fast, but I am 95% sure that nothing had hit it before. Oh well, the game likes to throw me curve balls that leave me saying 'wtf?' quite often.

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Those Ethiopian light spearmen form the backbone of your Saba armies if you play with them, and they are one of the best troops available in the regional MIC's for other factions as well (in that area).

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...mperatoria.gif
For my surprisingly bad units, I would have to submit the Roman Legionaries. 10 Armor seems a bit low, but could be alright, but 8 defense skill!!?? That's lower than Pandatopi. It just seems wrong to give a well trained unit that low of a combat skill rating. And the pila. I hate them. 4 attack rating. That seems too low for a heavy javelin. I read that that rating is a compromise between the heavy and the light pila. But still, that means that the light pila would have like 2 attack. :wall::wall::wall:

Sorry for the rant.:oops:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...h_hoplitai.gif
For my surprisingly good unit, I would mention the humble Hoplitai. For the low price of 1367 mnai, the pack a good punch, especially against phalanxes. In guard mode, they are insane.:2thumbsup:

My first post ever!:beam:

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Originally Posted by Julius Augustus

[IMG] but 8 defense skill!!?? That's lower than Pandatopi. :

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So you're arguing that a guy in full armor and legionary kit could dart and duck and hop around on the battle field as easy as a guy wearing only a tunic, a stick and slightly oversized wooden dinner plate...

In my late Romani campaign (115BC), the Roman Legionaries are unsurprisingly very good rank and file soldiers, the best in the world.

Oh, and welcome to the fora!

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Originally Posted by Mediolanicus

So you're arguing that a guy in full armor and legionary kit could dart and duck and hop around on the battle field as easy as a guy wearing only a tunic, a stick and slightly oversized wooden dinner plate...

In my late Romani campaign (115BC), the Roman Legionaries are unsurprisingly very good rank and file soldiers, the best in the world.

Oh, and welcome to the fora!

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Thanks for welcoming me Mediolanicus. What I meant by my remarks on the Legionaries is that, well, they go through some pretty intensive training, and as such, their skill just seems to be a little bit low. I know that he is heavily armored, but still, all that training should amount to something. The guy with the tunic is just a farmer or city dweller who is told to go and fight. The legionary is a professional warrior. I'm not saying that Legionaries are bad, just that they are not as good as I thought they would be.

(Me worries about starting a long+pointless argument like the one a while ago about the pros and cons of Thessalian Cavalry.)

About the Pandatopi though, in one of my campaigns, a Seleukid one, I used 2 units of them to defeat 2 of Pahlava's insane early bodyguards.
Pretty surprising. Even better, they only took like 40% casualties.

Elite african pike men pwns :P

You like the word "pwn" don't you?

Maion