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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Seamus Fermanagh
The impression I gather is that the UK would happily have stayed in the EEC, but not the EU -- that the UK has been progressively less happy with the whole thing since the Maastricht treaty. In other words, that European economic arrangements made sense to them, but not the EU exerting control over internal policy on social or defense issues.
I could be wrong.
It all boils down to economic slowdown. Everyone then figures out that "it's them foreigners taking our monies and our jerbs".
In this case, it ended with both sides losing. EU will miss UK, UK will miss EU much more. Their will be a significant short term dip in the UK, and partial recovery soon after. The real loss will be in the opportunities lost.
Now, the interesting part is that if UK wants to avoid real damage to its economy, it will have to stay in the economic area in some way, which translates, for the most part, to "them foreigners are still taking our monies and our jerbs", but now UK will have precious little way
of influencing anything, it's gonna be regulation without representation for them.
In mid to long term, it may prove to be the catalyst for Scotland's secession, thus diminishing influence and respect of UK even more.
This was really a "cake or death" choice, and one must wonder how stupid you have to be to get that one wrong.
Addendum: There is a chance that UK might be able to achieve some kind of deal with EU about "freedom of movement" part which would mean a slightly better outcome for UK, but that was a red line for the EU during the negotiations with the UK and it is highly unlikely that they're gonna accept to that now when UK has already left.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
The EU's politicians don't trust their voters though
That's because the voters are braindead.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sarmatian
It all boils down to economic slowdown. Everyone then figures out that "it's them foreigners taking our monies and our jerbs".
In this case, it ended with both sides losing. EU will miss UK, UK will miss EU much more. Their will be a significant short term dip in the UK, and partial recovery soon after. The real loss will be in the opportunities lost.
Now, the interesting part is that if UK wants to avoid real damage to its economy, it will have to stay in the economic area in some way, which translates, for the most part, to "them foreigners are still taking our monies and our jerbs", but now UK will have precious little way
of influencing anything, it's gonna be regulation without representation for them.
In mid to long term, it may prove to be the catalyst for Scotland's secession, thus diminishing influence and respect of UK even more.
This was really a "cake or death" choice, and one must wonder how stupid you have to be to get that one wrong.
Addendum: There is a chance that UK might be able to achieve some kind of deal with EU about "freedom of movement" part which would mean a slightly better outcome for UK, but that was a red line for the EU during the negotiations with the UK and it is highly unlikely that they're gonna accept to that now when UK has already left.
The funniest thing about the eff up is that immigration was the biggest issue for the Brexiters, but it's the areas with the least immigration that are most pro-leave, while the areas with the most immigration were the most pro-remain. London, which has by some distance the most immigrants in the UK by number and by proportion, was by far the most pro-remain region in England. Even Scotland only pipped us by 2%. What's perhaps even funnier is that the British Asians were apparently very pro-Brexit. Thus giving fuel to the ukippers who will be abusing them in years to come, encouraged by the seeming prevalence of fellow racists in this country.
Bloody idiots.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
This was really a "cake or death" choice, and one must wonder how stupid you have to be to get that one wrong.
Says the one guy whose country doesnt have to put up with Brussels... hrm I guess it's not the one guy as that's true for me now too.
Quote:
That's because the voters are braindead.
One vote not going your way and you immediately lose faith in 17 million people.
Indeed some voters are braindead.
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Even Scotland only pipped us by 2%
5.3% actually.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
You've forgotten to mention the Representation of the People Act of 1918, which enfranchised women over the age of 30. Which has as much relevance to the topic as the poll that you linked to.
EU referendum 2016
Scotland: 62.0% remain
London: 59.9% remain
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Papewaio
tl:dr "The more you tighten your grip, the more countries will slip through your fingers."
Thank you your Worshipfulness
I assume I missed the reference - possibly because I never figured out what tl:dr meant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sarmatian
It all boils down to economic slowdown. Everyone then figures out that "it's them foreigners taking our monies and our jerbs".
In this case, it ended with both sides losing. EU will miss UK, UK will miss EU much more. Their will be a significant short term dip in the UK, and partial recovery soon after. The real loss will be in the opportunities lost.
Now, the interesting part is that if UK wants to avoid real damage to its economy, it will have to stay in the economic area in some way, which translates, for the most part, to "them foreigners are still taking our monies and our jerbs", but now UK will have precious little way
of influencing anything, it's gonna be regulation without representation for them.
In mid to long term, it may prove to be the catalyst for Scotland's secession, thus diminishing influence and respect of UK even more.
This was really a "cake or death" choice, and one must wonder how stupid you have to be to get that one wrong.
Addendum: There is a chance that UK might be able to achieve some kind of deal with EU about "freedom of movement" part which would mean a slightly better outcome for UK, but that was a red line for the EU during the negotiations with the UK and it is highly unlikely that they're gonna accept to that now when UK has already left.
In the short term I expect we'll accept the terms of the EFTA, including Freedom of Movement. The sticking point is more likely to be the UK's contribution to the EU budget. The EU negotiators will point to Norway and we'll probably retort that Norway pays too much but they've swept that under the rug because it's not a huge proportion of the budget overall. If the UK ends up paying as much per capita as Norway it will effectively be funding the CAP, which isn't logical given that we'll be cut off from all EU subsidies and grants.
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Originally Posted by
CrossLOPER
That's because the voters are braindead.
Yes, the EU voters are too stupid to know what's good for them!
Ladies, Gentlemen - the reason we left in human form.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
The funniest thing about the eff up is that immigration was the biggest issue for the Brexiters, but it's the areas with the least immigration that are most pro-leave, while the areas with the most immigration were the most pro-remain. London, which has by some distance the most immigrants in the UK by number and by proportion, was by far the most pro-remain region in England. Even Scotland only pipped us by 2%. What's perhaps even funnier is that the British Asians were apparently very pro-Brexit. Thus giving fuel to the ukippers who will be abusing them in years to come, encouraged by the seeming prevalence of fellow racists in this country.
Bloody idiots.
UKIP are not a racist party, though they attract racists - to be sure. UKIP is also now a party without a mission and it's likely it will be fading away now, parts of it will fold back into the Conservative party and it will shed most of the racists in that process.
I didn't vote Leave because I'm a racist, indeed Freedom of Movement is not a major concern for me. Having said that, the status quo was clearly causing wage depression in the richer countries, including the UK and this - along with the CAP and CFP was impoverishing rural areas - and that was a big impetus to Leave.
Wage depression would also affect some lower skilled jobs in urban areas, like taxi driving, which has traditionally been an occupation were British Asians are over-represented.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Too Long: Didn't Read
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Ah, sorry, I had thought you had finally calmed down and remembered you were english, silly me.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Remember the spain thing?
Spanish Prime Minister warns Scotland has no right to negotiate with the EU
Quote:
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has warned Scotland has no right to negotiate with the EU.
The ultra-unionist Conservative declared: "If the the United Kingdom leaves, then Scotland leaves too."
His intervention came as Nicola Sturgeon prepares for talks with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker in Brussels in an historic diplomatic breakthrough.
The First Minister has failed to secure a meeting with Donald Tusk, the Polish president of the European Council, while other states, including Germany, signaled they would not commit to talks.
Mr Rajoy added: "Scotland has no powers to negotiate with the European Union."
Brussels watchers have long expected Spain to "huff and puff" - as once source said - over Scottish membership of the European Union.
The president of Catalonia - which has been barred from holding its own independence referendum by Mr Rajoy and his government - on Wednesday declared that the EU's attitude had changed.
Carles Puigdemont said: "The EU will radically change its idea about the independence of Scotland and Catalonia" because of Brexit.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
UKIP will need to win enough seats to make the major parties MPs actually vote yes to a Brexit Bill, followed by the Lords agreeing to it.
Until then the referendum is just another poll.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Papewaio
UKIP will need to win enough seats to make the major parties MPs actually vote yes to a Brexit Bill, followed by the Lords agreeing to it.
Until then the referendum is just another poll.
A larger proportion of the electorate back Brexit than has backed any government in over half century.
I don't believe the majority of our MPs will disregard that.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
The funniest thing about the eff up is that immigration was the biggest issue for the Brexiters, but it's the areas with the least immigration that are most pro-leave, while the areas with the most immigration were the most pro-remain. London, which has by some distance the most immigrants in the UK by number and by proportion, was by far the most pro-remain region in England. Even Scotland only pipped us by 2%. What's perhaps even funnier is that the British Asians were apparently very pro-Brexit. Thus giving fuel to the ukippers who will be abusing them in years to come, encouraged by the seeming prevalence of fellow racists in this country.
Bloody idiots.
Racist racist, maybe the just want to keep things as they are? Just a radical thought that people aren't waiting for no-go area's
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
Racist racist, maybe the just want to keep things as they are? Just a radical thought that people aren't waiting for no-go area's
You've missed the calls to "send them back" then.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Johnson has just chickened out. Bit wimpy, I think. But then his support figures were dropping, so I suppose it was the right thing to do.
Interesting times...
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
You've missed the calls to "send them back" then.
I got no problem with that. In Switzerland you can lose your papers just because you refuse to attend school-swimming. That is harsh but fair. No special treatment, if you keep putting your toes in the water you bring it on yourself.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
I got no problem with that. In Switzerland you can lose your papers just because you refuse to attend school-swimming. That is harsh but fair. No special treatment, if you keep putting your toes in the water you bring it on yourself.
And the increased verbal abuse of foreigners on the street "because we've voted out"? Poles have been getting it in the neck. The next time I pass by I will give the local Polish grocer a bunch of flowers as an apology for last Thursday.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
And the increased verbal abuse of foreigners on the street "because we've voted out"? Poles have been getting it in the neck. The next time I pass by I will give the local Polish grocer a bunch of flowers as an apology for last Thursday.
It's a thing, it will calm down and it doesn't represent the Leave Camp.
So, I'm betting on Therasa May at this point. Boris apparently didn't want to split the party between her, him, and Michael Gove. He sure as hell doesn't want Gove to win, so hopefully he's going to throw his weight behind May.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
And the increased verbal abuse of foreigners on the street "because we've voted out"? Poles have been getting it in the neck. The next time I pass by I will give the local Polish grocer a bunch of flowers as an apology for last Thursday.
Should do that if you feel like doing so, I am sure it will be apreciated. I am onto immigration from other places, or should I say colonists.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
It's a thing, it will calm down and it doesn't represent the Leave Camp.
So, I'm betting on Therasa May at this point. Boris apparently didn't want to split the party between her, him, and Michael Gove. He sure as hell doesn't want Gove to win, so hopefully he's going to throw his weight behind May.
Just as democratic deficits doesn't represent the Leave camp either. The issue that most Leave voters cited as the reason why they voted Leave was immigration. Likewise the reason most Remain voters voted that way was the uncertainty of a post-Leave scenario. Leave voters want to stop immigration. Remain voters want stability. That's not you and me, but Leave and Remain voters as a whole.
If we're to remain in the EEA, then we'll have to accept the four freedoms, the most notable of which considering this campaign is freedom of movement. The EU is by far our greatest trading partner. As the German finance minister commented when asked about future negotiations with Britain, the bigger partner will of course hold an advantage over the smaller partner, and the EU is far, far bigger than Britain. If we do indeed accept freedom of movement in return for access to the single market, then the principle issue for Leave voters won't have been satisfied. Either the racists and xenophobes will have their gripe and excuse to vote far right next time. Or our economy will be fecked, even more than it is already.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
Should do that if you feel like doing so, I am sure it will be apreciated. I am onto immigration from other places, or should I say colonists.
Our problematic immigrants come from outside the EU. One of the "desi" arguments I've seen is that we should exit the EU as a clampdown on EU migrants will make getting visas for Indians and Pakistanis easier.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Our problematic immigrants come from outside the EU. One of the "desi" arguments I've seen is that we should exit the EU as a clampdown on EU migrants will make getting visas for Indians and Pakistanis easier.
Everything changed since Merkel's birdcall and the consequences, I don't think many people mind guest-workers from the EU, and I don't see how actually do having a problem with it could ever be racist anyway, it's not about them, it's about people from out of Europe who want to have the furniture changed.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
Everything changed since Merkel's birdcall and the consequences, I don't think many people mind guest-workers from the EU, and I don't see how actually do having a problem with it could ever be racist anyway, it's not about them, it's about people from out of Europe who want to have the furniture changed.
Even before the referendum, we had the powers to deal with extra-EU migrants. Our borders are relatively easy to keep track of, and laws exist that keep them from establishing themselves de facto. The remote threat was that Turkey could be admitted, which would make it an intra-EU problem, but that possibility was remote given that we'd rejected them in the past and they'd gone even further from our standards since. If there was a non-refugee problem, it wasn't one that significantly touched the UK.
But then, like I'd said, most of the arguments for exiting the EU could well apply to many countries in the EU, but they didn't apply to the UK. Eurozone-related problems certainly didn't apply, yet they were apparently given by some as the reason for voting Leave. Similarly for the possibility that the accession of Turkey could lead to an influx of Muslims (Greyblades raised this in one of his posts, and there are accounts that people voted Leave to "get the Muslims out"). Which didn't make sense for the goal and the action we were taking. Meanwhile, the majority of Remainers just wanted tomorrow to be largely like today, without anything that we couldn't adequately plan or allow for. Instead, we've torn up everything, and, as the Leavers here have stated, there are no plans for what happens now, as it's not their responsibility to plan for the aftermath of their decision.
Ugh.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
It was the responsibility of the government to plan for both results in a referendum they had planned to hold for over a year, that they didnt plan for the outcome they didn't want is thier failing, not the failing of the people who voted that way in the referendum.
Evidently a change in government is in order, and as labour is tearing itself apart and the conservatives are looking like idiots I expect the next government will look nothing like the last, thank god.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
It was the responsibility of the government to plan for both results in a referendum they had planned to hold for over a year, that they didnt plan for the outcome they didn't want is thier failing, not the failing of the people who voted that way in the referendum.
Evidently a change in government is in order, and as labour is tearing itself apart and the conservatives are looking like idiots I expect the next government will look nothing like the last, thank god.
It's not the failing of the people who campaigned for Leave either, but the failing of the people who campaigned for Remain, to not plan to Leave. It's always someone else's responsibility.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Even before the referendum, we had the powers to deal with extra-EU migrants. Our borders are relatively easy to keep track of, and laws exist that keep them from establishing themselves de facto. The remote threat was that Turkey could be admitted, which would make it an intra-EU problem, but that possibility was remote given that we'd rejected them in the past and they'd gone even further from our standards since. If there was a non-refugee problem, it wasn't one that significantly touched the UK.
But then, like I'd said, most of the arguments for exiting the EU could well apply to many countries in the EU, but they didn't apply to the UK. Eurozone-related problems certainly didn't apply, yet they were apparently given by some as the reason for voting Leave. Similarly for the possibility that the accession of Turkey could lead to an influx of Muslims (Greyblades raised this in one of his posts, and there are accounts that people voted Leave to "get the Muslims out"). Which didn't make sense for the goal and the action we were taking. Meanwhile, the majority of Remainers just wanted tomorrow to be largely like today, without anything that we couldn't adequately plan or allow for. Instead, we've torn up everything, and, as the Leavers here have stated, there are no plans for what happens now, as it's not their responsibility to plan for the aftermath of their decision.
Ugh.
It's Germany who screwed up not the UK, the Merkel is only making things worse for herself as the Visegrad-countries just disregard her threats. The Brits are in a pretty comfortable position.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
The funniest thing about the eff up is that immigration was the biggest issue for the Brexiters, but it's the areas with the least immigration that are most pro-leave, while the areas with the most immigration were the most pro-remain. London, which has by some distance the most immigrants in the UK by number and by proportion, was by far the most pro-remain region in England. Even Scotland only pipped us by 2%. What's perhaps even funnier is that the British Asians were apparently very pro-Brexit. Thus giving fuel to the ukippers who will be abusing them in years to come, encouraged by the seeming prevalence of fellow racists in this country.
Bloody idiots.
Two points;
1. The number one reason for voting Leave was sovereignty (49%), versus immigration [&] security (33%). hat-tip Ashcroft polling.
2. Non-EU immigrants voting Leave - an understandable consequence of an immigration policy that actively discriminated against their fellows.... unless the country is happy with a completely open-borders immigration policy.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
It's not the failing of the people who campaigned for Leave either, but the failing of the people who campaigned for Remain, to not plan to Leave. It's always someone else's responsibility.
The prime minister and his cabinate are responsible, that they campaigned for remain is largely immaterial.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Pretty tame as hate crimes go, and 331, wow, that's truely a great amount in a nation of 60-70 million, assuming multiple crimes arent being done by the same people.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Kinda sceptical because Polish vermin is so specific, but I am often wrong. But over hete at least these things almost always turn out to be not what it initinally looked like, antifacistslol have been busted sooo many times that I am on hold when I read these things
'leave the EU, no more Polish vermin' is also odd, wouldn't it be 'Leave England', why would nationalist say 'leave the EU' after the referendum, makes no sense
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Papewaio
UKIP will need to win enough seats to make the major parties MPs actually vote yes to a Brexit Bill, followed by the Lords agreeing to it.
Until then the referendum is just another poll.
....and then political reality creeps in....
