And 5 men in full armor would definitely not weigh one ton. That would mean each man would weigh 200 kilograms each! That's just not possible here. I doubt that horse would weigh that much either. Half everything and it'd probably be alright.
Yeh your right...getting me lbs and kg mixed up...sign of old age....probably in the region of 100-120 kgs ....and as to my use of Einsteinisms..... the point i was trying to make is there...roughly :)
05-05-2008, 19:50
Decimus Attius Arbiter
Re: Historical Question on Cavalry Charges
I was watching the Kentucky Derby the other day and thought of RTW and cavalry charges. I couldn't imagine standing in front of a group of running horses.
05-05-2008, 22:33
Midnj
Re: Historical Question on Cavalry Charges
In addition to all the above, the lance can and will help break up any close-ordered enemy formation. A lot of the success of the charge probably depends on how well trained the cavalry men are to transferring their force into the front-ranks of infantry. They do it well and it helps clear a path for the horse to ram through. One (among many) reason why a sword wall would generally get the short end of the stick is because their sticks are too short.
05-13-2008, 15:54
Gnaeus Servilius
Re: Historical Question on Cavalry Charges
I'd also like to point out that even when a charge has finished, horses can kick bite and stamp on people in addition to the fellow on the horse doing all kinds of nasty tricks with whatever weapon he has at hand. I got kicked by a horse once, it happend in a split second and I was badly winded and went flying a good few feet and from where I was looking it didn't even look like the horse kicked me with it's full power. I've been bitten as well, that was also quick and quite painful. So if you didn't have any or much armour on biting would be pretty effective as well. Horses can be trained to do all these things.Their clever buggers. Also when being ridden horses 'compete' with each other which I think would make for good momentum during a charge. Also, horses have their own personality, some are brave, aggressive, ect so I think selecting a good warhorse is something the ancient horseman would definitely want to take into consideration.
If your interested in ancient horsemanship try and give Xenophon's art of horsemanship a read. It's a suprisongly light read and quite informative.
Anyway I hope that was helpful.
05-13-2008, 17:37
Cartaphilus
Re: Historical Question on Cavalry Charges
The lance is good for a knight to deal with both infantry or other horse-riders.
The french lancers in Waterloo destroyed the english cavalry that they fought.
With a lance you can hit your enemy at a safe distance, and kill him before he can give a single blow with his sword.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Half a league half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred:
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns!' he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismayed?
Not though the soldier knew
Someone had blundered:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die,
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.
Flashed all their sabres bare,
Flashed as they turned in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wondered:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right through the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reeled from the sabre-stroke,
Shattered and sundered.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came through the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honor the charge they made!
Honor the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!
05-13-2008, 22:43
Sarcasm
Re: Historical Question on Cavalry Charges
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartaphilus
The lance is good for a knight to deal with both infantry or other horse-riders.
The french lancers in Waterloo destroyed the english cavalry that they fought.
With a lance you can hit your enemy at a safe distance, and kill him before he can give a single blow with his sword.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Half a league half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred:
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns!' he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismayed?
Not though the soldier knew
Someone had blundered:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die,
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.
Flashed all their sabres bare,
Flashed as they turned in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wondered:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right through the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reeled from the sabre-stroke,
Shattered and sundered.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came through the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honor the charge they made!
Honor the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!
Huh? :wall:
05-13-2008, 22:57
QuintusSertorius
Re: Historical Question on Cavalry Charges
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartaphilus
The lance is good for a knight to deal with both infantry or other horse-riders.
The french lancers in Waterloo destroyed the english cavalry that they fought.
With a lance you can hit your enemy at a safe distance, and kill him before he can give a single blow with his sword.
A lance is useless against formed infantry ready to deliver a musket volley. Unless it's raining heavily, their powder is sodden and they're nervous.
Happened at Albuera in 1811, although General Beresford still managed to disarm a lancer bare-handed.
05-13-2008, 23:01
Cartaphilus
Re: Historical Question on Cavalry Charges
Don't you like Tennyson?
:sweatdrop:
Or don't you like the french lancers' work against the cavalry in Waterloo? Are you a great-great-grandson of one of the Ponsonbys?
05-13-2008, 23:03
Sarcasm
Re: Historical Question on Cavalry Charges
I don't like you making overreaching conclusions based on an engagement where half the British force was dispersed. Kinda like saying the cuirassiers were useless against heavy dragoons 'cause they got shredded at the sunken road.
There's a report someone made, whose escapes me, that lancers are pretty much useless once you get past the first two ranks, and that they'd do better to form the rest of the squadrons with swords to follow up the charge.
05-13-2008, 23:14
Cartaphilus
Re: Historical Question on Cavalry Charges
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
A lance is useless against formed infantry ready to deliver a musket volley. Unless it's raining heavily, their powder is sodden and they're nervous.
Happened at Albuera in 1811, although General Beresford still managed to disarm a lancer bare-handed.
Obvious.
See the english victories over the french in the Hundred Years' War.
The pikes and the longbows won the fields.
And of course the gunpowder killed in the end the cavalry - but see the last (suicidal?) cavalry charges in the first and second World War (awesome!).
I meant that in normal (ideal) conditions the lancers (well trained) will destroy the hussars or other cavalry units, because of their weapons.
After Waterloo all the european armies create (or recreate) new lancers units.
That's what I've wanted to say.
05-14-2008, 00:03
QuintusSertorius
Re: Historical Question on Cavalry Charges
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartaphilus
I meant that in normal (ideal) conditions the lancers (well trained) will destroy the hussars or other cavalry units, because of their weapons.
After Waterloo all the european armies create (or recreate) new lancers units.
That's what I've wanted to say.
In ideal conditions that suit the particular unit in question, they can beat any other. You get into the really stupid game of "what if".
Before Waterloo the French made quite a lot of use of Polish lancers. These things move in cycles and trends which may or may not be influenced by particular events.
05-14-2008, 07:28
Cartaphilus
Re: Historical Question on Cavalry Charges
Waterloo (and the french lancers) was one of these events.
I read a lot about it, and the (real or moral) impact of what the Jacquinot's lancers (less than 700 horsemen) did that day against the Scots Greys was so great to recruit or reform new units of lancers, changing the former tendency of disbanding the lancer units. That's a fact.
