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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
Dâriûsh
Just in case you make the mistake of assuming that the phenomenon is not as prevalent in non-Muslim communities
You are quite right. And there are very few comparative studies of the phenomenon. Too few to underpin the claim that violence against women is more prevalent in predominantly Islamic countries.
Nonetheless there are two aspects that set Islam apart.
The first is that violence against women is either legal or condoned by law in Islamist dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan. Of all the countries that have enacted laws against violence against women, only one or two (I believe Bangladesh and Malaysia) are predominantly Muslim.
The other aspect is that Islam has a universalist outlook and Islamism by nature has a universal claim to power and world dominance. "We" in the West don't care much that five women are burned every day in Hindu India because their families couldn't or wouldn't cough up their dowries. But we do care when similar violence is perpetrated in the name of Islam, because Islam is constantly held up by Muslim preachers as a superior way of life for all mankind. We feel both mocked and threatened by it, whereas we don't feel mocked and threatened by similar violence perpetrated in other cultures.
Your thoughts please, dear Dâriûsh. You and I may have fallen out in the past sometimes, but never in a spiteful way, and you were sorely missed by all in this forum. Good to "have you back".
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Oh, and to Tribesy, because he doesn't seem to get it either.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
I get it perfectly well Adrian , just like I get that it isn't hard to find a clergyman that will make bloody stupid comments on any subject , and like I get that it ain't just a muslim thing .
And as for the 1:6 ratio in politics ..bloody hell that ain't that bad , in fact its pretty average , there are western countries with worse men:women ratios than that , compare for example the US and Bangladesh , pretty similar huh :yes:
So your point was ? or would you like some details on mainsteam western groups who think women should be at home having babies and who think that it is men who have the right to tell their women what to do and what to think ?:thumbsdown:
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
Beat the muslims the same way we've beaten the christians, I say.
Hate speech!!! :furious3:
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
I get it perfectly well Adrian , just like I get that it isn't hard to find a clergyman that will make bloody stupid comments on any subject , and like I get that it ain't just a muslim thing .
No, you don't get the point of your own little movie clip, which is that a woman hands Wayne the stick to beat the lovely O'Hara with. And why? To get through to her, to conquer her pride and her resistance to him. But he finds a better way to do that: he fights over her instead of with her. This has nothing whatsoever to do with judicial flogging or domestic violence.
Your post is just one more attempt to trivialise violence against women, like HoreTore's remark that his Libyan friends have never heard of honour killings. Shall we go and look together for the accompanying movie clip, Tribesman? I would suggest that scene from Zorba the Greek where the widow gets slaughtered because she defiled her late husband's honour. It doesn't prove anything, except that Quinn was a bloody good actor. But hey, it's a western honour killing. And we've got the footage, man!
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
Adrian II
Your post is just one more attempt to trivialise violence against women, like HoreTore's remark that his Libyan friends have never heard of honour killings.
Uhm.... what?
My point/post had nothing to do with violence towards women at all, Adrian.
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
Hey Adrian , is that better way before or after he kicks her in the arse ?
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Your post is just one more attempt to trivialise violence against women
Is it really ?:no:
But just for you .
What do you say to a woman with two black eyes ?
Nothing because she doesn't listen .
Now there are two ways to take that , which one are you opting for ?
Hey for a better one why not go back to the topic on the Frog Ward killing and have a laugh at the patheticness of his wifes testimony and her excuses for the bastard .
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by HoreTore
My point/post had nothing to do with violence towards women at all, Adrian.
Yes, it did. These are your words about arranged marriages and honour killings:
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Originally Posted by HoreTore
Haven't seen any statistics, but I personally know quite a few muslims who didn't know of such things before they came here to Norway. Libya is one such country.
Like honour killings. The Libyan my sister is living with had never heard of it, and he is a religious muslim who attended Quran school in his youth because he wanted to.
If arranged marriages and honour killings do not qualify as violence against women, then what does?
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Originally Posted by
Tribesman
Hey Adrian , is that better way before or after he kicks her in the arse ?
Tribesman, I don't know how old you are, but I suppose you are old enough to have some idea of the birds and the bees and all that.
Now, you know very well that most women need a kick in the :daisy: - literally or figuratively - before they realise that you truly, deeply love them. And I don't mean a black eye or a beating or anything cruel at all, but a reality check. True or not?
And do you know why that is? Precisely because men have treated them like cattle for so long, and still do in many ways, even if only in "jest".
The O'Hara character refuses to be bought or sold, that's the whole point of the movie. Along comes the Wayne character who burns the money in the oven, in front of everyone, and gives her whole rotten family what for. That's when she tells him he'll "have his dinner on the table". It's not the kick up the a***, but the kick in the old fellow's liver what did it.
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
Adrian II
Yes, it did. These are your words about arranged marriages and honour killings:If arranged marriages and honour killings do not qualify as violence against women, then what does?
The point was about PJ's talk about a "muslim culture", Adrian. He talked like every muslim from Morocco to Bangladesh had the same culture, and that's just plain wrong.
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
Adrian II
Hurray for the taming of another shrew. True love is edgy, boys. I have personally spanked my wife more than once to set her some clear boundaries. I would do so again any time I find it necessary and she knows this. And she loves it. She hates to love it, but she does because she chose me as her partner for life, and as a man who would do what he thought she needed.
Somebody in Britain, explain that to the imam. Oh, and to Tribesy, because he doesn't seem to get it either.
Spanking of one's wife or girlfriend should only be done for mutual enjoyment. Just like God intended.
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
Goofball
Spanking of one's wife or girlfriend should only be done for mutual enjoyment. Just like God intended.
You are a wise man, Goofball. :bow: :laugh4:
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Re : Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
This sort of thread again? I guess before we'll reach page five the acts of any non-Westerner to control, rape, maim, flog or murder women will have been, first, denied, next, 'put into perspective', then, defended by the left.
('It doesn't exist, and besides, we do it too')
Not, of course, that the rights of women (or homosexuals, or minorities) mean anything to the right unless and until they can foam about them being violated by non-Westerners.
Whatever. I'll go all noir and Adrian and leave it at this bit of dark sarcasm.
Oh, must not forget my usual statement: Fragony has got more brains than the entire European left combined. (No sarcasm.)
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
The point was about PJ's talk about a "muslim culture", Adrian. He talked like every muslim from Morocco to Bangladesh had the same culture, and that's just plain wrong.
PJ was right about the larger frame of things.
Here is what a 2005 UN report has to say about women in Bangladesh:
As a South Asian country, Bangladesh is no different from its neighbors. Violence
against women is amongst the most serious threats to overall development and
progress in Bangladesh. Widespread violence and repression in numerous forms puts
women’s lives at risk in almost all parts of the country. This is further compounded by
the gender bias against women in the society. Before discussing the nature and extent
of violence against women it is important to focus on the general socio-economic and
legal rights of women in Bangladesh. [..] Despite constitutional guarantees of gender equality and legislative and other affirmative interventions, the status of Bangladeshi women is on the whole dismal.
Women are subjected to discrimination and violence within the household, at the
workplace and in the society. Their inferior status can be traced to the patriarchal
values entrenched in the society which keep women subjugated, assigns them a
subordinate and dependent role, and, prevents them from accessing power and
resources. Men hold the power and resource within families and control any property
and family income. Women are considered as men's property, their sexual activity,
income and labor being systemically controlled by the men in their family. Social
expectations still pivot around child rearing and household management. The practice
of Purda (seclusion), although changing, is still socially valued. Social norms,
education, employment and legal rights and gender inequality in Bangladesh are all
perpetuated by patriarchy. From their childhood, women are forced to live in a
culture, which tolerates and even permits inhuman treatment to them.
And here is what the World Organisation Against Torture had to say about Morocco in 2003:
Nevertheless, domestic and sexual violence still continue to be regarded
as a private sphere phenomenon which does not constitute a human rights
violation or a veritable social problem that merits investigation, research
and analysis.35 As has been described above, the low status of women in
society as well as the actual state of gender relations make it difficult to
collect data and information on the prevalence, forms and manifestations
of violence against women, its causes and consequences. Violence against
women continues to be surrounded by a culture of silence. Furthermore, as
many laws in Morocco discriminate against women, it is hard to distinguish
which type of discrimination is legal and which is a crime.
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
Wow. Women abused and oppressed in 3rd world countries. Who would've thought?
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
Adrian II
You are quite right. And there are very few comparative studies of the phenomenon. Too few to underpin the claim that violence against women is more prevalent in predominantly Islamic countries.
Nonetheless there are two aspects that set Islam apart.
The first is that violence against women is either legal or condoned by law in Islamist dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan. Of all the countries that have enacted laws against violence against women, only one or two (I believe Bangladesh and Malaysia) are predominantly Muslim.
The other aspect is that Islam has a universalist outlook and Islamism by nature has a universal claim to power and world dominance. "We" in the West don't care much that five women are burned every day in Hindu India because their families couldn't or wouldn't cough up their dowries. But we do care when similar violence is perpetrated in the name of Islam, because Islam is constantly held up by Muslim preachers as a superior way of life for all mankind. We feel both mocked and threatened by it, whereas we don't feel mocked and threatened by similar violence perpetrated in other cultures.
Your thoughts please, dear Dâriûsh. You and I may have fallen out in the past sometimes, but never in a spiteful way, and you were sorely missed by all in this forum. Good to "have you back".
Have we ever fallen out, my friend? I think not. ~:cool: Anyway, I think that there are so few comparative studies because many do (unfortunately) not really care about women's rights.
I doubt anyone would deny that the three kooky states are terrible places to live for women and I wonder if there is a study somewhere of this phenomenon for the wider Muslim world. I recall a study in Tunisia where the vast majority saw violence against women as socially unacceptable. Likewise, I saw a study once, from Iran, and the number of women subjected to abuse from their husbands was truly shockingly high. One in fourth or more I believe. Forced and arranged marriage was speculated to be the root of it, combined with many other factors. Throughout the Middle East there is a tendency amongst men to consider it okay to subject ones wife to abuse over even trivial matters.
Muslim scholars argue about the gender issue, and, as so many other issues in Islam, it is the subject of interpretation by individual kooks. Like the Australian Imam who said something akin to immodestly dressed women are themselves at fault for being raped, Saudi police who let schoolgirls burn to death, or the Islamic feminists or modernists who argue that Islam is progressive when it comes to women’s rights.
But even Fatwas™ and other rulings from open-minded (:dizzy2:) religious authorities have a hard time getting through the centuries old patriarchal barriers, even on national levels (Iran, Afghanistan). But the same goes with secular laws in many non-Muslim countries, I guess, where women are also abused. It is worth noting that honour killings are punishable according to Sharia Law (Not that Sharia Law is in any good, when it comes to women’s rights, as it is Sharia, by one interpretation, that allows a man to strike his wife).
Nazanin, the female author of my quote, was condemned to death In Mullahland for killing a would-be rapist (She was released in 2007). And the age of eligibility for death penalty for girls in Mullahland is nine. Nine!
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Throughout the Middle East there is a tendency amongst men to consider it okay to subject ones wife to abuse over even trivial matters.
This is also true of southern Europe, especially the Med.
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
So you are agreeing that your thoughts, guided by your ideology, are wrong?
Who's thoughts? HoreTore or I?
Edit: Nevermind.
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Re : Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
Adrian II
Now, you know very well that most women need a kick in the :daisy: - literally or figuratively - before they realise that you truly, deeply love them. And I don't mean a black eye or a beating or anything cruel at all, but a reality check. True or not?
Hey, there's a reason why so many Northern women dream of passionate, hotblooded Mediterranean men. :yes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apache
Quote:
Throughout the Middle East there is a tendency amongst men to consider it okay to subject ones wife to abuse over even trivial matters.
This is also true of southern Europe, especially the Med.
Hey, there's a reason why so many Mediterranen women dream of compassionate, respectful Northern men. :yes:
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
I wish I had his cajones.
That's not possible, you're a Brit!!!:laugh4:
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
Adrian , you have gone off on some strange tangent that only you can percieve .
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Re: Re : Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
Louis VI the Fat
Hey, there's a reason why so many Northern women dream of passionate, hotblooded Mediterranean men. :yes:
Hey, there's a reason why so many Mediterranen women dream of compassionate, respectful Northern men. :yes:
So much truth in two so similar sentences, I will probably dream of you tonight, Louis. :heart:
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Re: Re : Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
Louis VI the Fat
Oh, must not forget my usual statement: Fragony has got more brains than the entire European left combined. (No sarcasm.)
Oh hihihihi you make me blush :cheerleader:
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
Dâriûsh
As easy as it would be to point out that one wrong does not justify another, thats not really what this is about. How does each culture deal with domestic violence against women? In the West, the system does all it can to discourage it through laws and societal standards. We have stringent domestic abuse laws, public service announcements, and after school specials. Most importantly, from a very young age boys are taught that it is wrong to hit a girl - ever, both at home and school. On the other hand, the muslim system supports subjugation of women. Whether its in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, the legal framework does very little and more often nothing to offer any help to abuse victims. Even more important, just like in the West, the social system, dominated by islam, supports an abusive male-female relationship. It doesn't take a sociologist to see the vast discrepancies between men and women in the Middle East, and how the social system supports the often violent suppression of women.
Your and tribesman's attempts to whitewash this issue in the usual "we're all the same" language ignores the endemic support system for oppression within the Middle East found in the legal, religious, and social framework of every one of those nations to different degrees.
If I were to bring up the state executions of homosexuals in the Middle East, would you and tribesman then cite Matthew Shepherd as some sort of moral equivalent? :inquisitive:
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by HoreTore
Wow. Women abused and oppressed in 3rd world countries. Who would've thought?
You didn't think so. You mentioned those two countries, saying that notions and practices of female abuse were totally different in each. Turns out they are not. Wrong again, HoreTore. That's 3:0 for Panzer, Fragony and me.
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
Adrian , you have gone off on some strange tangent that only you can percieve .
Louis, for one, got my point. Which is that violence between spouses over material or trivial matters or to enforce the woman's compliance is abject. However, when it occurs in the name of love it is a sign of passion. That's what happens in The Quiet Man. Have you even looked at the clip you linked? Tsk tsk..
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Originally Posted by Dâriûsh
Have we ever fallen out, my friend?
I seemed to remember we did, in one of those heated threads about Denmark and cartoons or something. But I am not sure and I don't think I want to remember. I always hated to think that you had left the Backroom because I and others had been (unwittingly) rude or offensive to you.
Anyway, Dâriûsh, would you agree that this 'culture clash' over women's rights (and all sorts of related issues) is also a clash of two universalisms, and that this gives it a sharper edge than other culture clashes?
There are also many psychological aspects to it. Louis touched on an important one, which is that the Right in western countries cares only about human and womens' rights when they are violated by Muslims. A related psychological aspect is that when western males appear concerned about Muslim womens' freedoms, Muslim males interpret this as a direct attack on their pride: "They want to take 'our' women away from us."
I am not asking whether you condone any such attitudes. I know of your humane views on many issues already. I want to know if I'm right that these hard-to-pinpoint psychological aspects are indeed involved.
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Originally Posted by Panzerjaeger
Your and tribesman's attempts to whitewash this issue in the usual "we're all the same" language ignores the endemic support system for oppression within the Middle East found in the legal, religious, and social framework of every one of those nations to different degrees.
Not bad at all for a Fascist, PJ, not bad at all... :mellow:
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
Adrian II
You didn't think so. You mentioned those two countries, saying that notions and practices of female abuse were totally different in each. Turns out they are not. Wrong again, HoreTore. That's 3:0 for Panzer, Fragony and me.
Talk about missing the point....
I'll talk to you again when you recover from your hangover ~;)
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
I didn't say anything. Imam respects the rules of brittish society, Frag happy.
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
Talk about missing the point....
I have refuted each and every point you made in this thread. No need to talk any more, indeed.
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
Adrian II
I have refuted each and every point you made in this thread. No need to talk any more, indeed.
No, you haven't understood a single point I've made ~;)
We've been talking about two completely different things...
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Re: Because this is Britain, you cannot tell anyone what to do
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Originally Posted by
Fragony
I didn't say anything. Imam respects the rules of brittish society, Frag happy.
~:eek:
The words "Imam" and "Frag happy" in the same sentence? Praise be to Allah, miracles DO happen!
