A case for the removal of the Augustan Reforms!

Originally Posted by Gaivs:
Why? To be brutally honest and blunt, they are useless. No offence to the creators of them, they are great units, but the system EB has set up for them completely negates their even being in the mod. Its the same argument the team uses for not having LS, ie it only appears around 9 BC. Well Augustus did his reforms two decades before that? For a whopping 20 years you should have Imperial legionaries. Not a viable unit imo.

True, but so many people like them, perhaps only keep, I dunno, say the Praetorian guard, for custom battles? it's such a beutiful unit...

Originally Posted by V.T. Marvin:
To remove Augustan reforms and trade them for new units for new factions is an excellent idea!!! (otherwise why should we have new factions?) It is a matter of ballance - it has nothing to do with whether one likes the imperial units or the Roman Empire or not. Simply, given a certain number of unit slots and increased nuber of factions, it is only natural that some old units will have to go - and the augustans seems the most natural candidates for that, especially given the fact that they came so late in the game and that S.P.Q.R. have polybian and marian reforms already.:yes:

I think, however, that it will still be nice to leave the Imperator trait (and some nice ancillary maybe) in place and make it hereditial just for role-playing purposes. :2cents:

As to the skins idea, I am afraid that it will not work, beacause the skins are defined by the faction ownership and here we would have two different skins for the same unit owned by the same faction, which is probably impossible. :cry:

Don't know how M2TW model texture allotments is handled, but in RTW we got around that by using the merc skin. That's why Makedonia for example can recruit BOTH Prodromoi & Thraikioi Prodromoi.
Take a look at macedon & merc texture lines.

Code:

---

; Hellenistic cavalry - Prodromoi / Prodromoi Thraikoi

type                                hellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi
skeleton                        fs_thp_m_spearman, fs_hc_swordsman
indiv_range                        40
texture                                macedon, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi_agart_macedon.tga
texture                                numidia, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi_agart_macedon.tga
texture                                romans_brutii, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi_agart_macedon.tga
texture                                greek_cities, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi_agart_greek.tga
texture                                romans_julii, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi_agart_julii.tga
texture                                thrace, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi_agart_thrace.tga
texture                                dacia, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_thrakioi_prodromoi_agart_dacia.tga
texture                                slave, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_thrakioi_prodromoi_agart_dacia.tga
texture                                merc, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_thrakioi_prodromoi_agart_merc.tga

---

also didn't the evocata and the imperial/or the praetorians -I dont remember that well- had the same unit model but diferent skins?

I think people are getting confused. The scarcity of models is not an issue in EBII. It is the limited number of unit slots that is an issue. Talking of models or skins is not relevant to the OPs argument.

Foot

Is it possible to insert a poll after the thread has been opened? I would like to see what people think of it.

Thread Tools -> Add Poll to Thread. That might just be a moderator thing though. Don't know.

Foot

Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios:
I was going to post it but I decided that it's more fun if I queried Google for my reply + 'definition'. See?

EDIT: And my reply wasn't the title you see there. <_<

And so? Simply I agree with the OP but I also fear that some players would be unhappy - without reason, since I really support the EB project.

Originally Posted by Foot:
Thread Tools -> Add Poll to Thread. That might just be a moderator thing though. Don't know.

Foot

Doesn't work for me. Most be a moderator thing.

This is a rather interesting debate, because I have been an exclusive Romani player since I started playing EB and in the countless campaigns I have played, I have honestly reached the Marian Reforms less than five times and have never reached the Imperial Reforms.

It's simple, most die-hard Roman players have never legitimately reached that stage, so why miss something you've never seen. The real question is why have so few been able to reach the Imperial reforms without cheating, losing their minds, or having Ptolemy be the only enemy left on the map by the time they reach it.

Why? Because although the mod is designed to be played out for hundreds of years, the AI's bloodlust against you forces many reasonable players to either win the game, or quit out of frustration, far before even the Marian (nevertheless the Imperial) reforms. This makes the Imperial reforms useless, because not only are there no real enemies left to attack, but the imperial units are just different looking Marian units. When the AI forces you to be at war on so many fronts, nonstop, without the possibility of a ceasefire, it is easy to see why so many dedicated Roman players get burned out or frustrated before they reach the Imperial Reforms.

With all of this, I would say keep it for now. Since the AI can be programmed in EBII let's wait and see what happens. Although I totally understand not having imperial reforms in EB I.

If it truly does have to come down to removing old units to add units for the new factions why would you remove something that is so symbolic to one of the most important nations in history? Why not just remove units like the civic guards from the Marian reforms? or the unit (cant remember name off the top of my head) that is below the hastati? both of those units have little or now tactical or strategic value. Or if you are truly desperate why not take out some of the redundant and generic skirmisher units? There are so many kinds that iv lost count and many are sub par. Augustan units are a goal that players seek when playing Rome and I have campaigns that have come close to acquiring them without cheating and im sure many others have as well.

Using the armour upgrade system you can use multiple skins for the same unit.

Originally Posted by Lord Of Ruin:
If it truly does have to come down to removing old units to add units for the new factions why would you remove something that is so symbolic to one of the most important nations in history?

that...

I'm all for removing them.

Most people will never get them anyway, and to use so many of the precious unit slots for one faction's needs (even if it is Rome)...

Originally Posted by Lord Of Ruin:
If it truly does have to come down to removing old units to add units for the new factions why would you remove something that is so symbolic to one of the most important nations in history? Why not just remove units like the civic guards from the Marian reforms? or the unit (cant remember name off the top of my head) that is below the hastati? both of those units have little or now tactical or strategic value. Or if you are truly desperate why not take out some of the redundant and generic skirmisher units? There are so many kinds that iv lost count and many are sub par. Augustan units are a goal that players seek when playing Rome and I have campaigns that have come close to acquiring them without cheating and im sure many others have as well.

Because the Marian reforms (and thus units related to it) are reach-able. Imperial reforms few people actually reach without cheating, and frankly with the campaign AI as it is, the situation when it does arrive bears little resemblance to how things were in history.

Please vote in the poll I opened in a seperate thread.

I voted yes to remove the Augustan reforms in the poll thread, but I wonder if it would work to integrate a few of the Augustan units into either the Marian set or a sub-reform of a couple of units (aka the Praetorian guards) if you accomplish the Augustan requirements. This would free up the majority of the Imperial unit slots for other factions, while keeping the signiture units (Praetorians) so that people can still have the feeling of building the Roman Principate.

Another idea is that the Team could leave the decision up to the players when they install the game whether to include the Augustans or have other factions' units in the game.

Chairman

In my farthest reaching Romani campaign, I got an Augustus around 215 BC. Yes, freaking incredible isn´t it.
I had gotten the Marians maybe 10 years earlier by taking 90 regions, or rather just taking all the VC´s. Anyway, my African Vetus(? the one with Carthage and the big cities) governor suddenly got the High Ambitions trait, I made him heir and the very next turn my faction leader died a natural death. Hooray! I have an Emperor! Augustus! Hail Imperator! Yaay!
I sailed him Roma and installed him a Augustus, I everything was great and everyone was really really happy. Then I began wondering about the Augustan reforms. Turns out, I´ve got about 95 years to go until I can get them! No!
And I´m not even sure if they will work, since my Augustus will be dead by then, and I don´t know what happens with the Augustan reforms if the Augustus at the time don´t have all the requirements needed.
Anyway, 95 years to find out? I´ve already taken evrything I want to take, and the only reason I´m not the only faction left on the map is the fact that I´ve let most factions be except when the attack me. 95 years when I´ve already accomplished everything I want to do is a very long time. 10 years later I have established lots of buffer kingdoms by taking provinces from the Sweboz and Seleukids and gifting them to the Casse and Baktria, thus only leaving me with the task of managing +90 regions and hunting down rebels for +90 regions.
So, just 85 years left. 370 turns. Argh!
Let´s face it, getting the Augustan reforms isn´t very hard, but it is so utterly boring and mindnumbing that very, very few people have ever done it.
Now the EB team might do new stuff in EB2 that will change everything, I don´t know. But as it is right now I will vote for the Augustan reforms to be removed for the inclusion of other, more sorely needed units.
My two ören.