Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

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Originally Posted by Zett

About the stats...

From up to down: Hippies Xystophoroi (KH), Hippies Thessalikoi (Makedonia, Epeiros and KH), Agema Klerouchikon Hippeon (Ptolemaioi), Eqvites Extraordinarii (Romani), Hetairoi, Molosson Agema (Epeiros)

https://img49.imageshack.us/img49/5838/neubitmapto2.png
https://img49.imageshack.us/img49/ne...png/1/w640.png
(damn, its too small:oops:. I hope u have good eyes)

Armored Horses...one of the advantages of a horse is, that you can eat it if it dies during battle. No armor means you need no can opener:smash:.

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well, my right eye is a good little eye.

left eye cost me my driver's license last week. F***. (seriously, it did).

but yes, in this comparison, I would actually support the Hetairoi. it has sperior melee surviveability, and its charge is better. staminas are close to each other, in that regard its close. so in sum, the cavalry are IMHO (in order of effectiveness):

Hetairoi
molossan agema
agema klerouchikon hippeon (better than molossans in armor, worse in melee)
hippeis xystaphoroi
hipeis thessalikoi
extraordinarii-which, although ok, is terrible in comparison to the above cavalry.

I place emphasis on charge and melee, armor is important, but stamina is not as important (as i normally use the cavalry once, to finih the buggers off).

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ortamavera.gif

The best Rastaman-Spearman on Earth! Great medium infantry. In my lusocampaign they´re fight in centreposition and they never break even against roman/cartage/gauls elites and naked dudes.

Even better when they get silver-chevrons.

those indohellenic noble hoplites are not that good because of their AOR once you can recruit them as baktria you usually have the whole of india in your hands and you have to transport them back to through your territory
+ i don't think they are that great fighters

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Originally Posted by Tartaros

The best Rastaman-Spearman on Earth! Great medium infantry. In my lusocampaign they´re fight in centreposition and they never break even against roman/cartage/gauls elites and naked dudes.

Even better when they get silver-chevrons.

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Yep I love my scorto's, they are killing machines that do not stop.

My nicest surpise in my current Sweboz campaign is the German Swordsmen. I was planning to rely on FM's and German pike for the line, but 4 units of these bad boys in a main army stack (especially if recruited in a city dedicated to Deiwoz) are battle winners.

They can hold a line, carve through a flank, I've seen them absorb and repel massed Celtic cavalry charges (despite no spears), they die hard and slow, and take everyone with them. The accumulate chevrons like crazy because unlike most Germans they're not gutted after 1-2 combats. Javelins, shieldwall and VG endurance, these units have good tactical flexibility (not Thracian-Peltast-good, but still...)

I haven't made it to the 190BC reforms yet, but they will remain a mainstay even when the heavies arrive.

My surprisingly bad unit:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...t_elephant.gif

They are exspensive, didn't have any archers on top... (spare the seleucids, ptolies, and baktria's towered version for fairly fair units), the Carthie's elephants usable only against enemy's crack elite army (the slow and heavilyy armoured infantry), and die like flies when face mobs of junk units / proper skirmishing unit... (and the AI always buld tons of skirmishers and low class levies...) In my opinion, they are ussualy used as very exspensive suicide bombs against line of cheap units. (their frighten enemy effect is worth only against crack elite such as romani's reformed legionary, spartans, or exspensive heavy cavalry... they can fear the romans, but the ptolies's pantodapoi will slaughter them easily for far cheaper price (2 unit of pantodapoi charged an kardhastim elephant corps... doom for that beasts), even on medium battle difficulty...


My Surprisingly good unit:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...i_bagaudas.gif

They are described as poor class soldiers, but with proper use, they could put a doom against entire army made from more exspensive, professional troops, plus they have excellent chance to hold and survive in hand to hand combat...... With their price, all you must do is got some missile troops to prevent them die prematurely from enemy missile troops.... they far more worthy than they would pay....:yes:

Would you provide the name of the second unit?
Regarding the Carthaginian elephants: There exists a towered elephant unit for Carthage. It's a bit tricky: There are two African elephant units, one with a Greek name and one with a Semitic(?) name. One of the is the unit you mention, the other one has a tower with one archer. Both units cost the same. I don't know which one's the towered, though. It's been a while since I played Carthage or Ptolemaioi.

Cute Wolf's second unit:

Bagaudas (Veneti Swordsmen). Recruitable only in Armoriae. Very convenient though as they are a low-tier unit, easy to get for all factions.

The "semitic" elephants are Pilei Ya'ar Libim.


Funny to hear about the Scortamareva, as I intended to post them as a "surprisingly bad" (although cool-looking) unit. Maybe I have been using them in the wrong way.

Thanks for providing the unit names, athanaric.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Bagaudas (Veneti Swordsmen). Recruitable only in Armoriae. Very convenient though as they are a low-tier unit, easy to get for all factions.

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British and especially Galatian shortswords do equally (surprisingly) good. Plus, the latter one has a much broader AOR, albeit it only in the East.

aren't they only recruitable in 2 areas?

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Originally Posted by theoldbelgian

aren't they only recruitable in 2 areas?

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Yes but those two areas are very well accessible and strategically well-positioned for using them in your army.

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Originally Posted by theoldbelgian

aren't they only recruitable in 2 areas?

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Yes, but they are also readily available as mercenaries throughout the region. Very practical for a KH player who wishes to expand into Asia Minor.

E: Verdammt, Nachtmeister, you beat me.

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Originally Posted by theoldbelgian

aren't they only recruitable in 2 areas?

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Indeed, but as said: they come as mercenaries in the whole of Greece, Trace, Asia Minor, Levant and Northern Egypt IIRC.

Makes them the ideal disposable killers IMO

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u..._kluddolon.gif

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Yes, but they are also readily available as mercenaries throughout the region. Very practical for a KH player who wishes to expand into Asia Minor.

E: Verdammt, Nachtmeister, you beat me.

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MUHAHAHAHAHAHR!! MUUUUUHAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAARRRHHH!!!

You drive home a very important point about them that I omitted, tho - merc-ability all over Europa.
And Mikra Asia. Basically the best choice for someone who wants some extra chopper-infantry for only one or two engagements at low cost. Kill phalanxes at record speed if they reach their rear without getting shot to pieces on the way by enemy skirmishers.

One wonders why Galatia hasn't been run dry of men yet..

They probably have many wives from raiding.

I'm sure if your wife was a hot red head, you'd be uh, making sure the Galatian state had tons of future warriors.

Well we know the men certainly did both of the jobs they were required to do. Defend and feed your family and have lots of kids for warriors.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Cute Wolf's second unit:
Funny to hear about the Scortamareva, as I intended to post them as a "surprisingly bad" (although cool-looking) unit. Maybe I have been using them in the wrong way.

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Oh, i think i know what you meen. But they need definitely a bit exercisment. with three or four chevrons + weapon upgrade they ´re a "Surprisingly" solid unit. "Fresh" recruited they are sometimes very fast-dying...

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Originally Posted by Tartaros

Oh, i think i know what you meen. But they need definitely a bit exercisment. with three or four chevrons + weapon upgrade they ´re a "Surprisingly" solid unit. "Fresh" recruited they are sometimes very fast-dying...

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My golden chevroned Akontistai are surprisingly good too...
That's why I almost never retrain. Fighting the AI is already easy enough, then why use fullstacks and experienced units? Certainly because the AI hardly retrains (some say it doesn't at all, but I've seen them do it).

All low armoured and cheap shortswordsmen are surprisingly good units for me.... but the bagaudas are the most reliable when we playing "civilized" factions....

Speaking of light swordsmen, one "surprisingly good" unit also comes to my mind:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...z_hattisku.gif

Why? - They are dirt cheap (675/169, compare that to Bagaudas!), have AP melee weapons, powerful charge, excellent stamina, and, unlike other Germanic troops, a decent javelin range (because of lighter javelins). All this makes them excellent garrison troops. Of course they die like Dacians if exposed to missile fire, but so do other barbarian units.

E: sorry, forgot the name: "Chatti Youth" clubmen.

Can't seem to get enough of these guys.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...i_infantry.gif
Perfect for fighting the sweboz, reasonably cheap too.

and they are not as tough as bagaudas, try to fight 'em head to head next time...:smash:

Bagaudas are even surprisingly better than their galatian counterparts in terms of combat prowess (2 bagaudas can beat 1 Gaesahtae in ambush!), galatians are only better in fact they has better AOR.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Speaking of light swordsmen, one "surprisingly good" unit also comes to my mind:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...z_hattisku.gif

Why? - They are dirt cheap (675/169, compare that to Bagaudas!), have AP melee weapons, powerful charge, excellent stamina, and, unlike other Germanic troops, a decent javelin range (because of lighter javelins). All this makes them excellent garrison troops. Of course they die like Dacians if exposed to missile fire, but so do other barbarian units.

E: sorry, forgot the name: "Chatti Youth" clubmen.

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This unit and the main Club infantry that the Sweboz use are that factions saving grace against armored opponents, such as later Roman legions, Uber heavy cavalry, and even Spartans.
I have done extensive battle testing, where i fight armored opponents with Sweboz aries that do and dont have these units. For ever clubmen unit i added enemy casualties rose about 10-15%, VERY impressive for guys that cost 690 mnai (THE cheapest unit in the game)

Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou... why "surprisingly" good? Several reasons:
- they really do look like Snowtroopers, it makes my empire feel that much more like... the Empire;
- they are incredibly tough;
- they have a really cool name I like saying out loud.:beam:
All in all, they're even cooler than I expected. Thus the "surprisingly".

The surprisingly bad unit (as far as I've seen): Armenian horse archers, the cataphract kind. I don't know what makes them worse than any regular one, I just know my cataphracts wiped out several full units of those taking only five casualties, they fall easily.

Errrrr....TAB as "SURPRISINGLY" good? Ekhm...these guys are great but no surprisingly...they are elite kings guards; best of the best...nothing surprisingly...:inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Mister V

The surprisingly bad unit (as far as I've seen): Armenian horse archers, the cataphract kind. I don't know what makes them worse than any regular one, I just know my cataphracts wiped out several full units of those taking only five casualties, they fall easily.

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That's strange. They didn't do any worse then my parthian ones in my Hai campaign. And those guys are unsurprisingly good.

Perhaps you did charge them? Even a phalanx will suffer heavy casualties when from a cataphract charge, cavalary of any kind (except perhaps counter-charging cataphracts) won't stand a chance at all. Also cataphracts (other then the noble ones) have AP secondary weapons.

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Originally Posted by Megalos Danielos Psychopatos

Errrrr....TAB as "SURPRISINGLY" good? Ekhm...these guys are great but no surprisingly...they are elite kings guards; best of the best...nothing surprisingly...:inquisitive:

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I said that I thought they were going to be good-looking and not bad in combat. I didn't expect them to be this awesome in all aspects!
Seriously, it's just been a long time since I've played EB, maybe I'm somewhat over-enthusiastic:beam:

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Originally Posted by Tolg

That's strange. They didn't do any worse then my parthian ones in my Hai campaign. And those guys are unsurprisingly good.

Perhaps you did charge them? Even a phalanx will suffer heavy casualties when from a cataphract charge, cavalary of any kind (except perhaps counter-charging cataphracts) won't stand a chance at all. Also cataphracts (other then the noble ones) have AP secondary weapons.

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I charged them, but they weren't just standing there either, they were trying to get away from mine. If they were standing still, I wouldn't be surprised either.


Also, I've found something wierd (and it is unit-related, so I'll post it here). The TAB and Kataphraktoi aren't supposed to upgrade their weapons, right? Well for some reason when I go to Halikarnassos, I can retrain them and it gets upgraded. Glitch?

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Originally Posted by Mister V

I charged them, but they weren't just standing there either, they were trying to get away from mine. If they were standing still, I wouldn't be surprised either.

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Sometimes charges also work when they usually shouldn't, so it might have been this. well, w/e it's not that important. Parthian Armoured HA a better(=cheaper) anyway.