Twenty years after the wall

:jumping: Adrian is back! :jumping:

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1989 is such a vast subject, that only a big essay would do it any justice. I am not going to write one here, and I can't think of any of the top of my head.

Instead, I thought it would be great fun to check newspapers from the period. Fantastic! Articles written without the knowledge that in six months time, the world would be a different place.


Twenty years ago, to the date.

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East Germany Losing Its Edge
By FERDINAND PROTZMAN, Special to The New York Times
Published: Monday, May 15, 1989

East Germany is the Communist world's vaunted economic success story, hailed as proof that traditional German values of hard work, discipline and thrift can translate Karl Marx's theories into reality.

[If ever Tribesy was called for, the above is it. What bollox. :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:]


While other Communist economies are pursuing market-oriented reforms, Erich Honecker, East Germany's 76-year-old leader, and his colleagues on the ruling Politburo -average age of 67 - flatly reject them. The leaders say that the Soviet Union may need Mikhail Gorbachev's perestroika, but that East Germany, with an economy shaped solely by the tenets of Marxist-Leninist ideology, is performing admirably.

[...]

But Western analysts and diplomatic officials say East German economic growth is grinding to a near halt, despite its past success. [...]''East Germany is the odd man out in Eastern Europe now,'' one official said. ''Many of the countries believe that East Germany's policies are weakening their attempts at reform.'' Several Problems

A Western diplomat in East Berlin said: ''They are caught by several dilemmas. One is the rising expectations in an era when Gorbachev's moves promise exciting developments. The populace here is seizing on the day-to-day economic frustrations they face and getting unhappy. The mood is worse than ever.''

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Originally Posted by Fragony

If you must. It's like I have always said, the left needs a miracle the right needs patience. Laugh all you want.

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It's funny. I've always thought that the Right was the Left's miracle.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

It's funny. I've always thought that the Right was the Left's miracle.

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The left is perverted, now they defended someone who say women should keep their eyes peeled to the concrete at all times (Tariq Ramadan), the left can't chose between being sorry for muslims for whatever reason and being at least a little western.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

The left is perverted, now they defended someone who say women should keep their eyes peeled to the concrete at all times (Tariq Ramadan), the left can't chose between being sorry for muslims for whatever reason and being at least a little western.

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Sigh... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Sigh... :rolleyes:

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Well mia muca, he said that women should have their eyes peeled to the concrete at al times, our green friends told us it wasn't translated properly, but I speak french and it was translated just fine.

March 1989, crack in the Wall!:

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West Berlin Journal; Out of the East, Hordes (of Weekend Capitalists)


Published: Monday, March 6, 1989


Though long prepared to stand fast against a military onslaught from the East, West Berlin authorities have been caught off-guard by new weekend invasions of thousands of Polish flea marketeers lured to this island of capitalism by the chance for a quick mark.

They began sometime before Christmas, when several dozen Poles, taking advantage of loosened exit formalities in Poland, appeared at the Krempelmarkt, the muddy weekend flea market near the Berlin wall, with some vodka, clothing and other wares for sale at rock-bottom prices.

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June, Gorbachev puts the fate of East Germany in the hands of East Germany itself. It is from here on up to Honecker

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A GORBACHEV HINT FOR BERLIN WALL

Published: Friday, June 16, 1989

Wrapping up a triumphant visit to West Germany, President Mikhail S. Gorbachev said today that the Berlin wall was not necessarily permanent, but would be taken down only when conditions that created it fell away.

Though Mr. Gorbachev's visit produced no concessions on Berlin's status, his willingness to address the emotionally charged issue in practical terms was taken by West Germans as evidence of the ''new chapter'' that the Soviet leader proclaimed in Soviet-West German relations.

''The wall was raised in a concrete situation and was not dictated only by evil intentions,'' he said at his concluding news conference. East Germany ''decided this as its sovereign right, and the wall can disappear when those conditions that created it fall away,'' he continued. ''I don't see a major problem here.''

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

:jumping: Adrian is back! :jumping:

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Don't I know it? But we have to stop meeting his way, mon vieux, already people are looking at us.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

The left is perverted [..]

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... and the Right is blind. Nice couple, picture them in the dark room on a Friday night.

N'en doutons plus, Olympe, ils se vont égorger. :drama2:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Well mia muca, he said that women should have their eyes peeled to the concrete at al times, our green friends told us it wasn't translated properly, but I speak french and it was translated just fine.

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Am I defending anyone here? No. I think that it is deplorable. But what I have a problem with is that you lay down all these accusations about the left controlling the education system, yet you then proceed to answer absolutely none of the questions I asked. You have not substantiated a single claim you have made about the education system with anything concrete. If you would care to do so, that would please me greatly.

In February, Honecker vowed that the Wall would not come down

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THE WORLD; The East-West Flow of People and Ideas

Published: Sunday, February 5, 1989

RATHER like the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dike, East Germany's leader, Erich Honecker, vowed recently that the Berlin wall would remain standing for 50 or 100 years since it was needed ''to protect our Republic from thieves, not to speak of those who are ready to disturb stability and peace in Europe.''

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By August, it was clear the tide could not be turned...

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Westward Tide of East Germans Is a Popular No-Confidence Vote

Published: Tuesday, August 22, 1989

Sitting on a bench in the sunny main courtyard of the central reception camp for East German immigrants in this quiet town north of Frankfurt, the East German did not look like someone about to begin a new life.

But like thousands of other East Germans, the 39-year-old tool-and-die maker and a friend ended their summer vacations in Hungary by escaping across the border into Austria, leaving almost everything they owned behind.


The current trend is accelerating. In July, 11,707 East German emigrated to West Germany, according to Bonn Government figures. Government spokesman said Monday that 1,400 East Germans arrived in the West over the weekend. Of those, 980 crossed the border between Austria and Hungary, Austrian officials said.

Western analysts and recent emigres say the rising number of East Germans trying to escape to the West in recent weeks reflects a deepening loss of faith in the Communist system and the nation's leaders, a loss bound to have a profound effect on East Germany's future.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Am I defending anyone here? No.

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Well I haven't offended anybody yet.

Relax lefties, it isn't your idea that's dead, just the one that have it dying.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

You have not substantiated a single claim you have made about the education system with anything concrete.

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Even his claim about Tariq Ramadan and Rotterdam is erroneous. Both the Left and the Right were divided over his appointment. By the way, what the heck has all this to do with the topic of this thread? :wall:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Even his claim about Tariq Ramadan and Rotterdam is erroneous. Both the Left and the Right were divided over his appointment. By the way, what the heck has all this to do with the topic of this thread? :wall:

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The end of your post, I am not the one who posted it.

And creepy indeed. Why would the greens agree with a woman having to peel her eyes at the concrete at all times.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

In Flemish schoolbooks for toddlers for example you have this villain that sounds exactly like 'Dow Jones' when you read it out loud, I don't know about you but that qualifies as sublimal messages to me.

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Brilliant stuff :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I predict that by this November, the vast leftist ABSOLUTE CONTROL of Dutch society will have been defeated. :knight:

Freedom to the Netherlands will have been restored. And then, this November, at last, the Dutch media and education will finally be free to devote massive attention to the twentieth anniversary of the fall of the Wall.

:yes:



I just had a vision. I predict that the vast leftist stranglehold on Dutch society will collapse exactly on the Ninth of November. Mark my words.

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You are clearly part of the leftist conspiracy, mocking those who detected it and all :no:

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Originally Posted by Andres

Brilliant stuff :2thumbsup:

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Well sorry

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Originally Posted by Fragony

The end of your post, I am not the one who posted it.

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Yes you did. It's in #33.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Yes you did. It's in #33.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

:wall:

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nah, 2009

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Why would the greens agree with a woman having to peel her eyes at the concrete at all times.

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Because the greens are cryptofascists, and have been all along. Anti-liberal, anti-progress, anti-rational, anti-human. Fortuyn's murderer was only the first full-blown killer that this cabal has produced. Forget Osama. Ecoterrorism will be a top security threat within ten years from now, mark my words. Few lessons have been learned form the Wall and its demise, on that at least we can (supposedly) agree.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Because the greens are cryptofascists, and have been all along..

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Suggestion? It's going to hurt anyway.

I wouldn't say the education system is left-wing biased, not here in the UK at least. At school I had a geography teacher that said Margaret Thatchet was one of the 5 most evil people of all time, and I had a history teacher who called her the "blessed Margaret".

At Uni there is a slight left-wing bias, but I don't think thats a problem since it doesn't affect most of the students I've seen who are obsessed with their "civil liberties". I doubt this slight left-leaning bias is due to a conspiracy rooted in Belgium, instead its probably just because the more idealist liberal types are more likely to want to be involved in the education progress. In any case, I've never found they brainwash people and they make it clear when they are giving a personal opinion.

This thread is bi-polar. One side is the joy and elation of remembering that horrible symbol fall and remembering names like Honecker, Wolf, et al. The other is a dark and twisted world of conspiracy. Or maybe my sense of humor is off. :shrug:

Intresting. Apparently there was a "cold war" and we beat the "Soviets"

Sounds like a good movie:yes:

Some brilliant conspiracy stuff in here, thanks frag needed a laugh.

Great anniversery (though apparently as a lefty im gutted, must say i haven't noticed) a victory for personal freedoms everywhere and a timely reminder to look after our civil liberties in our current nations as well!

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I'm afraid the wall came down in November 1989. Hence the lack of coverage. No leftist conspiracy.

The cracks in the Iron Curtain started twenty years ago in spring and summer. In China, democratic demonstrations took place this month. In South Africa, the end of apartheid was announced.

The year is more important than exact months or dates. 1989 was a true Annus Mirabilis. The greatest year since 1789. The end of history, the end of that wretched short European century of 1914-1989.

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Well said. :bow:

BTW when do you think the new political century started, judged by the historians 2150 (added some margins there)? 1989 or later, like 2001?

Can be worth noticing that the largest Swedish newspaper did have a large article about the picknic and the opening of the Hungarian border.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

ahum.

It's now time for the exams, kids are rolling from the assemblyline of the red machine as we speak to be further indoctrinated with leftist propaganda on universities, I bet there isn't a single question in the exams about the wall.

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Of course not, only one subject should actually cover it and that's modern history (possibly some politics courses, but I'm quite poor on the knowledge or thier existance). That course should on the other hand always have questions about the wall, or being a horrible course, by missing the greatest event in modern history.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Intresting. Apparently there was a "cold war" and we beat the "Soviets"

Sounds like a good movie:yes:

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Depends on what you like, lots of scare and thrilling stuff, very little action and then the bad guys goes on and self-defeat themself with a whisper to the surprice (and joy) to almost everyone.

“Great anniversery (though apparently as a lefty I am gutted, must say I haven't noticed) a victory for personal freedoms everywhere”
Yeap. I remember. Freedom was flooding the world. :sweatdrop:
Then the Right Wing Nationalists started to Ethnic cleansing in Europe. Communism became bad and Nazism good….
The pretty villages went in flames in some areas, some minorities forced to change their ancestors names or/and some countries built wall to separate them from down towns, or have their children ban from schools because too dirty.
The Religious movements started to be preached with bombs and the freedom become slavery from women and “unfaithful”. It took some time from the freedom fighters to become unlawful combatants but it happened…
Genocides happened in a wonderful indifference / indulgences when suited and International Laws became no more than a piece of paper.
Cynicism became the main value, except greed.:2thumbsup:
At least, they were able to die of starvation but FREE.

Er, a lot of difference...

Well im not saying it worked out great for everyone... but certainly East Germany for one... they may have not been able to enjoy the west's financial success but they could enjoy thier democracy... Poland would be another one i assume...

How widespread was most of what you talk about... are you mainly thinking of countries in the balkans....?

I would say on the whole it was a step in the right direction... maybe we (the west) could have done a bit more to help make it a more successful transition...

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“Great anniversery (though apparently as a lefty I am gutted, must say I haven't noticed) a victory for personal freedoms everywhere”
Yeap. I remember. Freedom was flooding the world. :sweatdrop:
Then the Right Wing Nationalists started to Ethnic cleansing in Europe. Communism became bad and Nazism good….
The pretty villages went in flames in some areas, some minorities forced to change their ancestors names or/and some countries built wall to separate them from down towns, or have their children ban from schools because too dirty.
The Religious movements started to be preached with bombs and the freedom become slavery from women and “unfaithful”. It took some time from the freedom fighters to become unlawful combatants but it happened…
Genocides happened in a wonderful indifference / indulgences when suited and International Laws became no more than a piece of paper.
Cynicism became the main value, except greed.:2thumbsup:
At least, they were able to die of starvation but FREE.

Er, a lot of difference...

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Both Nazi Germany and the USSR were socialist countries. It is the left that is supporting socialism today.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Both Nazi Germany and the USSR were socialist countries. It is the left that is supporting socialism today.

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Are you comparing today's liberal left with Hitler/Stalin?

Are you comparing today's liberal left with Hitler/Stalin?

I think it would be more of a shock if he wasn't... vuk i realise its your favourite pet debate but you don't need to bring every single thread off topic with it...

Start a thread where people can rubbish your silly comparisons instead of continually dragging others off topic...

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Are you comparing today's liberal left with Hitler/Stalin?

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No, not at all. He was comparing the right to Nazis, and I pointed out that his comparison did not work, because the Nazis politics were actually almost identical with today's left, not today's right. He is the one who made the insinuations, not me.

So where he said right wing nationalists started ethnic cleansing after the wall came down, you took this as him calling right wingers nazis ?!

because im sorry to tell you the nazi regime fell some 45 years prior...