Re: Koinon Hellenon family traits
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I am sorry, but what do you mean with the first and the latter?
Morality and Lycurgus's system.
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Maybe because he didn't do it willingly? After all, luxury was not allowed by law. Anyway, although currency was abolished, there still were differences in wealth. Thirdly, greed is not the only reason for corruption: ambition often plays a role as well. And the Spartan system did not try to curb ambition.
If he didn't he could just move away and be an general or advisor in another state and lead a rich live. If he could make it that far at least. :skull:
Who says they didn't do it willingly? The choice to live so came from the Spartans themselves when they were convinced by Lycurgus.
Spartans sure had ambition, in honour, have large amounts of money only damages your honour.
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Again, I must ask for clarification. The fact that his daughter persuaded him not to accept a bribe says what?
That at Politics even an child could advice the king, try to find anything like that in another state. :inquisitive:
From your post you keep going by modern day standards and try to fit them into Sparta as in wealth and the like. Sparta just is alien compared with pretty much all we know so modern day standards don't really fit in there.
Re: Koinon Hellenon family traits
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Originally Posted by
Phalanx300
From your post you keep going by modern day standards and try to fit them into Sparta as in wealth and the like. Sparta just is alien compared with pretty much all we know so modern day standards don't really fit in there.
Possibly. But you are not free from modern preconceptions either when you state:
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Originally Posted by
Phalanx300
Spartans sure had ambition, in honour, have large amounts of money only damages your honour.
This equates money to wealth. However, in classical Greece wealth was measured in land as well as money. Although the Spartans were not allowed to posses money or valuable metals, they did own land. In fact, their social standing was determined by the amount of agricultural produce they contributed to the communal messes. The kings came from two of the wealthiest families. So yes, wealth (if not money) did matter to the Spartans.
The reason why I draw parallels between Sparta and modern states is because humans have not changed significantly over the last millennia. Societies have grown more complex, technology has marched on, values have changed, but human nature is still the same. Now, if I interpret your position correctly, you state that the Spartan education (the agoge?) was able to change human nature and turn every child into a selfless and incorruptible defender of the state. However, I believe that not even the agoge could change human nature, and it merely turned them into disciplined, bloody-minded parochialists. Perhaps, at this point, we should simply agree to disagree.
Re: Koinon Hellenon family traits
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Originally Posted by
Phalanx300
No currency allowed, need to pay in goods, you'd be shamed to have gold or silver. How exactly does anyone willingly living like that be corrupt?
I'm just gonna kick in here (because the rest honestly mostly goes beyond my knowledge) to say that corruption does not naturally involve either precious metals or coin. That is more of a modern concept, that is, it's mostly what's used these days.
I've just very recently (for my medieval class) read a document written in about 798 AD, a complaint from a missus dominicus to the state concerning the fact that people came to him, not to ask for justice (pretty much his role), but to bribe him. In any case, he mentions a lot of different bribes, and yes precious metals and coins are mentioned, but that is just a fraction of what was used. Most bribes consisted of other goods, such as... well i don't have the document with me right now, but off the top of my head, i can remember horses, donkeys (pretty much any kind of herd animals, truth be told), and, amusingly enough, one offer of an ancient greek vase. There were others.
My point is, even in a much later society, in which the usage of coin is deeply rooted, they still widely used a ton of other goods to bribe. Now, in an earlier society where coin was forbidden, they'd just naturally use whatever has value. There being no coin is a non factor in there being (or not) corruption.
On a side note, if the missus guy interests you, he was truly complaining that people didn't care about justice, that'd they all just cared about buying whatever it is they were after. Amusingly enough, our missus (Theodulf and i'm not going to hazard myself into translating his title) admits to having accepted a few, because, so he says, the tradition of gifting is deeply rooted. So by politeness he accepted the good foods presented to him. :laugh4:
EDIT
next person to come here is gonna be the thousandth.
