Israel kills to Maintain Blockade

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Originally Posted by Fragony

That as well. If they would have unloaded in Israel so the goods could be inspected none of this would have happened.

edit not missing the point, they left them no other choice. This is a war.

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Israeli army was left with no other choice than killing unarmed civilians on a civilian ship that is loaded with supplies, in international waters.

This transmission is over for me. Have it your way.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Hamas wants to destroy Israel

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And what the :daisy: does that have to do with attacking a convoy in international waters? Was the convoy going to supply Hamas or the Palestinian people? Or you don't really care enough to make the distinction?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I wouldn't like that either. So they should just look the other way when a fleet heads directly to Ghaza?

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A humanitarian aid fleet? Yes. They should definitely look the other way. They can inspect shipment for weaponry or other internationally Palestinian embargo'd items. They can inspect it on the Israeli-Palestinian EEZ. Never on international waters. On international waters, Israeli can't do :daisy: to anyone.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Where is all that outrage when Egypt fills smuggling tunnels with poisenous gas, yeah they do that. They also build walls. Nobody cares.

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My extreme outrage lies with the fact that while Egypt has the sovereignty and jurisdiction to protect its territory as it so pleases, Israel simply doesn't give a fig about International Law. A violation of a State in International Law against another State cannot simply be construed as a bilateral matter, but by as a universal matter, as by violating universally accorded principals, Israel is attacking each and every nation that is bound by those agreements, in short, every single nation represented on the United Nations. Moreso, it inclusively took the lives of foreign citizens in an area it has absolutely no jurisdiction on.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd

It is the international waters part that makes this a bad case for Israel.
They don't have jurisdiction in international waters and this can be treated as pure piracy by international courts.

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For me this is the defining element in this case, the fact that Israel repeatedly stretches beyond its borders illegally, and harms in the citizens of its allies in doing so.

Had it my way, sorry don't feel bad about this at all. You don't play nice with friends of your enemy. And you most certainly don't trust them. Could have been loaded with terminators.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Had it my way, sorry don't feel bad about this at all. You don't play nice with friends of your enemy. And you most certainly don't trust them. Could have been loaded with terminators.

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...Why not nuke Gaza and West Bank? And then Amman, Damascus Beirut and Cairo?

A suggestion to Israel. If you think there are weapons being smuggled with the aid why not redirect the ship to Tel Aviv and then search it? When you find no weapons send it on it's way. Everyone would understand, and your point would be made. Attacking an aid ship is not exactly smart now is it?

Israel is the bratty kid at the party smacking all the other kids and stealing their candy. One of the parents needs to come along and smack it's behind and put it back in it's place.

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Had it my way, sorry don't feel bad about this at all. You don't play nice with friends of your enemy. And you most certainly don't trust them. Could have been loaded with terminators.

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Post 9-11/Cold-war era USA needs you. *points finger*

While I support Israel's claims to the land from a historical perspective (lets not forget the concept of the Palestinian people we have today is really a collection of Arab immigrants that came for work as a result of Israeli economic development, the original Palestinian identity was for both Jews and Muslims in a sparsely populated backwater), such actions are pretty dispicable.

Sure there most likely was an agenda with these activists but talk about playing into their hands.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

...Why not nuke Gaza and West Bank? And then Amman, Damascus Beirut and Cairo?

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No need there is a wall. Doesn't stop the daily rockets but at least bring suicide attacks to a minimum. Beautiful isn't? Two peoples wailling at walls instead of killing each other.

removed, trolling

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Originally Posted by Psychonaut

A suggestion to Israel. If you think there are weapons being smuggled with the aid why not redirect the ship to Tel Aviv and then search it? When you find no weapons send it on it's way. Everyone would understand, and your point would be made. Attacking an aid ship is not exactly smart now is it?

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That is exactly what Isreal wanted in the first place and she communicated that with the activist, before they even left (other harbour). Everybody apparently doesnt understand after all.

I have being reading a thread for last few days on this on the Politics.ie website one of those ships was bought in Ireland with Irish citizens on board. To be honest I have little time for the Irish activists in this flotilla but that does not mean I would support there open murder in international waters Israel has really overstepped the mark here.

The activists were offered the chance to unload the cargo in Eygpt for further transport to Gaza but as Louis already pointed out the plan was to provoke an international incident by there capture, they have achieved there aim but at a very high cost.

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Originally Posted by Psychonaut

A suggestion to Israel. If you think there are weapons being smuggled with the aid why not redirect the ship to Tel Aviv and then search it? When you find no weapons send it on it's way. Everyone would understand, and your point would be made.

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This has been Israel's policy indeed.

It was unacceptable to the flotilla, whose goal was not to comply with the blockade, but to either break it or to go down in a showdown.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

The Kurds got you ;)

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*concerning levels of irrelevancy and indifferency detected*

Okay. Sorry, I got some button to push right now. :skull:

These Turks are insani!

Islamists, terrorists or a charity organisation? You decide.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

This has been Israel's policy indeed.

It was unacceptable to the flotilla, whose goal was not to comply with the blockade, but to either break it or to go down in a showdown.

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Aren't you allowed to be in international waters, then? Couldn't Israel have waited until the ships entered their jurisdiction? Was it that hard to wait?

Who has been the most provocative? The people on those ships or Israel boarding them in international waters, knowing damn well that that is an act of piracy, an international crime, no more no less, but also knowing that nobody will ever do something against them, because somebody else protects them, no matter what they do?

It shouldn't come as a surprise that the international community is outraged (and rightly so!).

Now, how to deal with this mess? To the international court of justice? If there are sanctions against Israel needed, will the UN apply them or will the US veto?

Or will this end very badly?

My guess: a lot of outrage, many condemnations, a lot of blahblahblah from "shocked" politicians and within a week or two, nobody talks about it anymore and nothing will happen. At best some lawsuit at the ICJ which Israel will lose inevitably, followed by nothing.

Oh, that IHH. I decide: No better than Danish government not moving a finger about pro-PKK Roj TV.

Same :daisy:, different complexion.

Edit: Actually these guys are more of a threat to Turkey itself, regarding their dreams of a shariya regime, rather than Israel or anyone else. But as I said the current government and these guys and the NGOs alike are all highly dominant and mutually existent.

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Originally Posted by Andres

Now, how to deal with this mess? To the international court of justice? If there are sanctions against Israel needed, will the UN apply them or will the US veto?

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It will take much more for Israel's lapdog to turn on its master.

Hey, I've got little sympathy for Israel's methods. Both sides are dragged down in a vicious circle of violence. Israeli society itself has become infected with violence and aggression. A thoroughly unpleasant place.

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Originally Posted by LEN

Actually these guys are more of a threat to Turkey itself, regarding their dreams of a shariya regime, rather than Israel or anyone else. But as I said the current government and these guys and the NGOs alike are all highly dominant and mutually existent.

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:balloon2:

These Islamists have no business in secular Turkey, whose overthrow is their goal.

~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~

Starving Palestinians can always go for fine dining at this chain of expensive restaurants in the Gaza strip. The food, apparantly, is exquisite and abundant:

http://www.rootsclub.ps/index.php :beam: :balloon2:

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Originally Posted by tibilicus

And so the Israeli sympathisers are in, let the debate begin!

I'm sorry but even if you are sympathetic to Israel's aims (what ever that is, because I'm a bit lost) this isn't really justifiable. For a start, I don't even know what they hoped to find on board seeming the ship is an aid ship. The chances of there being weapons, or at least a serious armament are seriously low seeming the ship left from Cyprus, a place where I imagine it isn't particularly easy to smuggle weapons from due to the presence of both UN and British forces. I guess they could of been shipped from Turkey but again, that's unlikely. It probably comes down to ill-discipline and poor intelligence on the Israelis part again.

Israel is showing an increasingly hostile attitude to the Palestinians and seems to be moving further and faster to a form of apartheid. Some of you may try and deny this, but don't bother. Arabs within Israel and those in Palestine can't freely walk in certain areas without receiving a hail of abuse, most Israelis despise them. As an Arab you can also look forward to having your house knocked down to make way for a nice new Israeli house. Any one want to justify that? You can't deny it isn't a form of apartheid. Arabs are discriminated against economically and socially.

Perhaps most worrying though is the fact that Israel have shown a profound ability to show a complete disregard for its western allies. The actions of recent years show they don't consult their allies, not even the USA any more, before making key decisions. We talk about Iran as the rouge state but is Israel not the same? If they refuse to show restraint despite international condemnation for their actions time, and time, and time again, how can any one here defend them?

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what have i learned in this thread so far:

1. that it is israel's policy to bring ships in for inspection, why was this not done this time?

2. that this aid convoy was running a baton charge against a sovereign nation state, who the hell do they think they are?

3. that the aid group are a bunch of crazy nutters who support hamas, why are we surprised that israel demands to inspect the ship?

4. fourteen people died during the boarding, what the hell were they doing that they could not be peaceably detained?

was israel heavy handed? yes, it rather looks that way.

do i care very much given the character and actions of the convoy? no, not very much.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

what have i learned in this thread so far:

1. that it is israel's policy to bring ships in for inspection, why was this not done this time?

2. that this aid convoy was running a baton charge against a sovereign nation state, who the hell do they think they are?

3. that the aid group are a bunch of crazy nutters who support hamas, why are we surprised that israel demands to inspect the ship?

4. fourteen people died during the boarding, what the hell were they doing that they could not be peaceably detained?

was israel heavy handed? yes it rather looks that way.

do i care very much given the character and actions of the convoy? not very much.

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You missed the part about boarding a ship in international waters, using force. No, you didnt miss it. Must learn to read entire post first before replying. Shame on me :whip:

When that happens near Somalia, people call it piracy, are outraged and some even cheer when the pirates are being shot at or left alone in a rowing boat in the middle of the ocean :balloon2:

You can ignore it as much as you want, but Israel committed an international crime here, no more, no less.

Not so long ago you said "pirate=dead... good". Do you want to see these Israeli soldiers dead? Or did you change your mind about piracy and do you know think it should be allowed. Or do I smell hypocrisy and double standards?

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Originally Posted by Andres

You missed the part about boarding a ship in international waters, using force. No, you didnt miss it. Must learn to read entire post first before replying. Shame on me :whip:

When that happens near Somalia, people call it piracy, are outraged and some even cheer when the pirates are being shot at or left alone in a rowing boat in the middle of the ocean :balloon2:

You can ignore it as much as you want, but Israel committed an international crime here, no more, no less.

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when it is piracy, i get all outraged, when it is a blockade runner to a hostile power from a organisation known to support that hostile power, and when they immediately put up a fight that results in the use of deadly force, i tend to be a bit more sanguine about the use of international waters.

i don't get much of a hard-on about international law.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

So, you do think they should look away when a fleet heads directly to Hamas-country? Who have vowed to destroy Israel? Kidding me? I would also justify it if they sank them all.

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:laugh4:

I'm sorry but your blinded by your own biased attitudes to anything Muslim related again. It was carrying basic supplies. Not weapons of mass destruction. Many on board were western citizens looking to their bit, it's no different from any other civil rights movement. well, arguably a bit, but I think those on board had good intentions, many wern't "EVIL MUZLIMZ" as you try and portray such aid convoys as.

Once again Fragony's ridiculous anti-Muslim views lead him to state that he would justify the death of all those aboard the ships. You really don't know where the line is, do you?

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

what have i learned in this thread so far:

1. that it is israel's policy to bring ships in for inspection, why was this not done this time?

2. that this aid convoy was running a baton charge against a sovereign nation state, who the hell do they think they are?

3. that the aid group are a bunch of crazy nutters who support hamas, why are we surprised that israel demands to inspect the ship?

4. fourteen people died during the boarding, what the hell were they doing that they could not be peaceably detained?

was israel heavy handed? yes, it rather looks that way.

do i care very much given the character and actions of the convoy? no, not very much.

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God allmighty on a :daisy: plane at least someone gets it.

Contrary to popular belief the us is not in fact israels lap dog. How many wars have we entered on their side?

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

what have i learned in this thread so far:

1. that it is israel's policy to bring ships in for inspection, why was this not done this time?

2. that this aid convoy was running a baton charge against a sovereign nation state, who the hell do they think they are?

3. that the aid group are a bunch of crazy nutters who support hamas, why are we surprised that israel demands to inspect the ship?

4. fourteen people died during the boarding, what the hell were they doing that they could not be peaceably detained?

was israel heavy handed? yes, it rather looks that way.

do i care very much given the character and actions of the convoy? no, not very much.

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Don't get me wrong, it would be completely justifiable if the Israelis were checking the ships within their own territorial waters, the point is, they didn't. Seeming your only seeing this from one side, imagine this. Your on a boat late at night and all of a sudden you see helicopters above and armed men rappelling down onto your ship. How would you react in said situation Furunculus?

There's a right way and a wrong way to check ships, this was most certainly wrong. Just to clarify, my position is against the way this deplorable operation was carried out. I have absolutely no problem with Israel checking incoming ships within their own water and doing so in a way which doesn't alarm those on board.

Preditions for the next steps.

1- Turkey invokes Nato's mutual assistance clause...
2- This means Germany has a legal cover to attack Israel.
3- see where this is going?...did I just blow your mind?
4- I've got my popcorn ready....do you? :P

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Contrary to popular belief the us is not in fact israels lap dog.

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:inquisitive:

Really?

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A History of U.S. Vetoes


There is another major area, largely ignored, that at some point must be faced. It involves the serious distortion of the official Security Council record by the profligate use by the United States of its veto power. In 29 separate cases between 1972 and 1991, the United States has vetoed resolutions critical of Israel. Except for the U.S. veto, these resolutions would have passed and the total number of resolutions against Israel would now equal 95 instead of 66.
These resolutions would have broadened the record by affirming the right of Palestinian self-determination, by calling on Israel to abandon its repressive measures against the Palestinian intifada, by sending U.N. Observers into the occupied territories to monitor Israel's behavior and, most serious, by imposing sanctions against Israel if it did not abide by the Council's resolutions.
Such a list of resolutions passed and resolutions vetoed is unparalleled in United Nations history. The list in itself forms a stunning indictment of Israel's unlawful and uncivilized actions over a period of 45 years and of America's complicity in them.
Yet references to this damning record are totally absent from the vocabularies of American leaders as they go about saying they are seeking peace. If they are really serious about peace, then at some point they must act with the same firmness they displayed toward Iraq's occupation of Kuwait. Had they approached Iraq with the same timorous tactics they are applying to Israel, Iraqi soldiers still would be in Kuwait. The point is that aggressors have always answered the question of whether they want peace by their actions. If the United States really wants peace in the Middle East, it must insist that Israel abide by the judgment of the world community as expressed in resolutions by the United Nations. The U.S. can do this at any time simply by forsaking the use of the veto and joining the world consensus. Anything less makes a sham of the peace process, and is demeaning to leaders of a democratic country.

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But that's '93 you say?

Here you go:

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Originally Posted by US veto blocks UN anti-Israel resolution

The US, a staunch ally to Israel, has so far vetoed over 40 anti-Israeli resolutions sought by the council since 1972.

Since 2004, Washington has prevented the adoption of four other resolutions that called for Tel Aviv to halt its operations in the Gaza Strip.

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I am abstaining from this thread, because I will be in Palestine and Israel (along with Jordan) in a couple of months, and I don't want to recieve bodily harm or kidnapped by either Palestinian insurgants or Israeli special forces.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Contrary to popular belief the us is not in fact israels lap dog. How many wars have we entered on their side?

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I wonder how Israel was founded, maintained and defended up to now ? Is it really such a far country from here ?

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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

removed by mod.

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Absolutely disgusting. Your green font will shield you from getting the slap from the mods that you deserve, but it shouldn't.

As for the topic, you reap what you sow. These agitators were looking for a fight and they found one.

And rather than reporting it to the moderators, you decided to publicly lambast him and potentially worsen things. Poor choice sir.