Heroes

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Originally Posted by Barkhorn1x

C'mon man - that approach is for wimps.

I want:
- Hero unit to consist of ONE man - the HERO
- His mere presence on the battlefield will force peasants to route, samurai to quake and warrior monks to burn incense
- His sword should be LOOOONG and his B@lls HUGE

In short, give me UBER or don’t even bother.

;)

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I agree these guys should be pretty impressive. But the ability to rout enemy armies by his presence will just get boring after a while. I like to fight, and if my hero is causing the enemy to rout before I get to... he's gonna have to stay home. XD

I just want them to be general units that are just a tad better. They could have unique models and abilities over regular generals. (Added bonus to attack or defense?) But if they're taking on armies by themselves and take your entire army to kill..... that's going a bit overboard. O_O

The Kensai from the original were too much, and so were the almighty Byzantine generals from MTW.

Imagine if heroes are slightly the oposite of what people fear? You get one hero after a number of turns, RPG him up well, send him into battle and he is cut down by archers or flanked by calvary and killed before he shreds those cowardly ashigaru! That would be quite funny and make the hero less desireable than an uber one! This probably won't be the case but still fun to consider. Will heroes have any abilities on the strat map? Duels and such? Or will dueling be done on the battlefield?

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Originally Posted by A Nerd

Imagine if heroes are slightly the oposite of what people fear? You get one hero after a number of turns, RPG him up well, send him into battle and he is cut down by archers or flanked by calvary and killed before he shreds those cowardly ashigaru! That would be quite funny and make the hero less desireable than an uber one! This probably won't be the case but still fun to consider. Will heroes have any abilities on the strat map? Duels and such? Or will dueling be done on the battlefield?

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We don't know anything about the agents system yet, do we? That is one area which needs to be carefully designed because it can easily get bogged down.

Well if the Hero is on the strat map he could be placed in the army much like agents were in other TW titles and travel around with it, perhaps providing some unknown bonuses. Fight on the battle map if two armies met. On the strat map he could be placed on other heroes for duels or perhaps other agents or diaymo for other diplomatic purposes. The possibilites are endless! Well, they have their limits but you know what I mean.

I guess I just wanna see how this plays out lol.

A return to Shogun is very exciting though. :D

Well the sword saints in the original were a step in the right way. Quite strong and they never rout, but they are no match for any units in the game in a one on one fight. It wasnt to unrealistic.
Still I hope the heroes dont die when hit by one musketvolley, that would be too much realism. But I guess you will have duells.

The OPness of Kensai in Shogun was dependant on the unit size.
1 Kensai vs 60 Yari Samurai on Normal = routed YS with significant loss.
2 Kensai vs 120 (or was it 160?) YS on Huge settings = good chance of dead Kensai.

I think a strong but low number unit representing the Hero & his guard/followers should be ok.
I hope to see them emerge from gameplay eg you need an individual soldier to reach a certain fairly high minimum honour rather than just being timed or purchasable.

Problem with a minimum honour level though is that you tend to get significant numbers of a unit reaching fairly high honour at once & you'd need these units to remain rare through a game.

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Originally Posted by hoom

The OPness of Kensai in Shogun was dependant on the unit size.
1 Kensai vs 60 Yari Samurai on Normal = routed YS with significant loss.
2 Kensai vs 120 (or was it 160?) YS on Huge settings = good chance of dead Kensai.

I think a strong but low number unit representing the Hero & his guard/followers should be ok.
I hope to see them emerge from gameplay eg you need an individual soldier to reach a certain fairly high minimum honour rather than just being timed or purchasable.

Problem with a minimum honour level though is that you tend to get significant numbers of a unit reaching fairly high honour at once & you'd need these units to remain rare through a game.

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Maybe something like Civ's great people who emerge somewhat at random during battles between veteran units?

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Originally Posted by hoom

The OPness of Kensai in Shogun was dependant on the unit size.
1 Kensai vs 60 Yari Samurai on Normal = routed YS with significant loss.
2 Kensai vs 120 (or was it 160?) YS on Huge settings = good chance of dead Kensai.

I think a strong but low number unit representing the Hero & his guard/followers should be ok.
I hope to see them emerge from gameplay eg you need an individual soldier to reach a certain fairly high minimum honour rather than just being timed or purchasable.

Problem with a minimum honour level though is that you tend to get significant numbers of a unit reaching fairly high honour at once & you'd need these units to remain rare through a game.

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First of all. There were always only one Kensai per unit. No matter which unit size. And they werent able to beat a yari samurai unit one on one. Play Shogun again. ;)

You play it again. On the biggest unit size you got 2 per unit.

Though I concede a Kensai may not have been guaranteed to beat a YS unit even on Normal size.
I nearly always played the largest setting where you certainly couldn't trust a Kensai to beat a YS unit :shrug:
Which arguably could be described as underpowered in terms of value for money.
But a Kensai in the mix of a charge down a hill definitely gave a good morale penalty to the enemy & they could help to strengthen a weak part of the line where a YS might potentially suffer morale issues.

A kensai with low honor values (in my experience) would usually die after about 25 kills (castle gate rush experiement). Honor the fellow up however, and these guys became quite formidable indeed! They needed some micromanagement, they needed some resting here and there, but in custom battles if you kept your eye on them and with at least an honor of 4 or so they alone could inflict quite a few casualties. Seldom used them in campaign due to the amout of time to reseach and train them.

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Originally Posted by quadalpha

Oh, God. I used to make a point of bribing/assassinating generals just so I don't have to pack enough men around them so they don't run away.

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Nice to see you here "old-timer!"

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Originally Posted by Barkhorn1x

I disagree. Some RPG elements add immersion and foster attachment to the characters. I think that if heroes are used sparingly and are not too uber then their addition will add a bit more spice to the procedings.

Heck, the most hard core WWII boardgame - Advanced Squad Leader - had hero generation under certain circumstances. Heroes are cool - AND fun.

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August 2001...I am not worthy!!!

Glad to see you back here.

I used to love the old ASL heroes and leaders (wasn't your avatar one of the names in the game? I mean aside from the ace referant) system as well. It made it less "beer and pretzels" but did add a bit of spice.


I would actually like a couple of heroes and their retainers/dsiciples as a small unit. Like a second general's unit only combat only.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

August 2001...I am not worthy!!!

Glad to see you back here.

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Oh I am king of the lurkers as I don't post too much. Perhaps that will change w/ this annoucement.

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I used to love the old ASL heroes and leaders (wasn't your avatar one of the names in the game? I mean aside from the ace referant) system as well. It made it less "beer and pretzels" but did add a bit of spice.

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ASL had some really great "chrome" rules; weapons breakdowns, sniper activation, squad experience level reductions, low ammo restrictions. But man did it take dedication to play.

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I would actually like a couple of heroes and their retainers/dsiciples as a small unit. Like a second general's unit only combat only.

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That sounds like a good approach.

Heroes should really be generated by in-games happenings rather than being based on historical timed events or, worse, simply recruited with proper money and/or tech. That is, if a soldier in a normal unit kills many enemies over time or in a big, important battle, particularly one where the odds were against him, then you should have the option to acknowledge his accomplishments and let him break off from the unit to become a hero unit with his own disciples or perhaps adopt him into the family and promote him to general also or instead.

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Originally Posted by General Malaise

Heroes should really be generated by in-games happenings rather than being based on historical timed events or, worse, simply recruited with proper money and/or tech. That is, if a soldier in a normal unit kills many enemies over time or in a big, important battle, particularly one where the odds were against him, then you should have the option to acknowledge his accomplishments and let him break off from the unit to become a hero unit with his own disciples or perhaps adopt him into the family and promote him to general also or instead.

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This is a good idea. I like the way subsequent games occasionally allowed a general to appear after a victory.

What do you think: should heroes fight on foot or on horseback? Perhaps both? Or should it depend on what background he came from (at this point in our understanding of heroes, that could be anything)? Though it could be from say a ND unit or a Yari Calvary unit using STW terminology.

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Originally Posted by A Nerd

What do you think: should heroes fight on foot or on horseback? Perhaps both? Or should it depend on what background he came from (at this point in our understanding of heroes, that could be anything)? Though it could be from say a ND unit or a Yari Calvary unit using STW terminology.

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I'd say horseback. But if it was both that'd be cool. :D

Like Musashi Miyamoto and Benkei fight on foot. Other guys use cavalry maybe? But Benkei and Musashi did use horses too. (I believe Musashi was in a cavalry unit in his role in the Shimbara rebellions.) Maybe just cav? : / Hmmm...

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What do you think: should heroes fight on foot or on horseback? Perhaps both? Or should it depend on what background he came from (at this point in our understanding of heroes, that could be anything)? Though it could be from say a ND unit or a Yari Calvary unit using STW terminology.

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I'm hoping for it to be based on backgrounds so you'd get a variety of different Hero units eg Hero Cav, Hero Sohei, Hero Naginata, Hero Archers.

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Originally Posted by hoom

I'm hoping for it to be based on backgrounds so you'd get a variety of different Hero units eg Hero Cav, Hero Sohei, Hero Naginata, Hero Archers.

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I second that opinion.

It would be nice if we were given the option to allow Heros or not in the game setup. This would allow those who like them to enjoy them, and those who don't to play without them. A simple check box which would allow or defeat the code that produces them would do the trick.

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Originally Posted by Masamune

It would be nice if we were given the option to allow Heros or not in the game setup. This would allow those who like them to enjoy them, and those who don't to play without them. A simple check box which would allow or defeat the code that produces them would do the trick.

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I agree that check boxes for a number of game options would be fantastic, but I wonder at the impact of such things on the complexity of the AI programming. I guess it depends upon where the impact of heroes fall in the game: strategic, battle or both.

The best historical example we have of something like a hero fighting a whole unit was Musashi against the Yoshioka school, about 100 men armed with bows, swords, and spears. He won by fighting them in a forest, where their bows were ineffective and he could easily dart in and out of view, killing their leader, and then raiding the hell out of them until they ran off in confusion. In other words: micro.

Heroes will either be overpowered, or too much work, or only useful for roleplaying/strat map purposes.

yeah i like that idea, they would have to be managed heavily or they would be killed quickly.