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HoreTore, about 50% (48% last time I saw any numbers) of the rapes are commited by immigrants. The immigrant base is 14% of the population. You do the math.
However, why are we bogging down to a discussion of rape? I dont think the rape statistics is the main reason SD gained votes, rather general crime and economical reasons.
Yes.... My language skills failed me on that one. But anyhoo, it wasn't very important...Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Indeed! A few weeks ago, I was in bed with a friend of mine after we came home from a night on out. Just slept, no sex involved at all, the reason she slept here instead of at home is because it was a lot easier to get here at 0400. Now... assume I raped her. She was drunk as hell and in no position to resist, I am also a lot stronger than her. She reports it to the police, we end up in court and what happens? I say it was consensual sex. She says it wasn't. As there are absolutely no more evidence, unless I confess, I go free because of the doubt, especially since there have been a lot of flirting between us in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
A newly arrived immigrant can't get a get-away-with-rape card like that, due to not having the required social network, and thus gets sentenced to jail and ends up in the statistics, while an ethnic Aryan Übermensch like myself goes free and is removed from the statistic.
Yes, I meant "conviction" as in "still sentenced to jail after all the appeals are dealt with".Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
I believe I already have, maybe you should give maths a try as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Well, we're discussing rape because Louis in his infinite wisdom brought it up... But it is highly relevant, since rape is the number 1 scare used by racists, especially when making flyers, followed by narcotics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
HoreTore, I am unsure how to convince you. Even the most leftist media in Sweden has admitted that immigrants are way over represented, so to sit online and struggle with trying to get you to accept it seems like a waste of time. Read up on it, by all means. You would have to make a very compelling argument to try and sway me though.
I will leave the rape discussion, but am more than willing to adress other issues, like, the intended issues I first started the thread with (if anyone remembers).
On topic:
I think the economical reasons was the main factor as to why people voted for SD this time around. With finances as they are, people start to frown when money are spent on immigration rather than taking care of the people already in the country.
lolz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
I have already proven that assault rapes are so rare that they are irrelevant, I have explained why these rape statistics are completely useless numbers that doesn't tell us anything and I have shown why such things should not affect a wider immigration policy.
You, on the other hand, have made absolutely no argument to counter it, and it now looks like you're incapable of doing so.
I'm not saying that is a surprise though, given your affection for SD.
And here we see the good parrot repeating another favourite racist quote; that the immigration is costing us a bunch of money. I admit that there haven't been much studies done on this(it's a very large subject), but here is one, and it concludes that immigration is a bonus; immigrants provide more to our nation than they take.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
But, as a Norwegian, I am of course more than willing to accept that you Swedes voted out of ignorance instead of actual knowledge ~;)
Does anyone else find it odd Horetore knows so much about rape?
I hope you never plan to become a politician when comments like this are begging to be taken right out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
"Vikings loves to X and pillage the English coast."Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Find X in the above statement.
Hah!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
@HoreTore:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
And if only you Horetore would understand what an ugly spot they are in. The left calls us islamphobes, but a phobia is irrational, being rational isn't. In the meantime the schoolgirl love for anything Islam gets them all wet in moral painful agony.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
10 out of 10. :balloon2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
*bow*Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
HoreTore, you need to up your game, dont let them get you!
:2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
:laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
....And if only you, frags, would understand that the majority of these foreign women have ethnic norwegian husbands....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
And I support the rights of female immigrants; something the right-wingers love to say they do, but never do; do they really believe that a woman is better of staying in Iran than if they moved here? Nonsense. Our system may fail some, but at least we have a system to protect them.
The right-wing loonies want to throw them all back to countries and law systems where they can be stoned for being raped. To say that is supporting them is mind-blowing.
64% of the people being jailed in France are of African descent. 72% are muslims. But surely, that's irrelevant too. Too small numbers. Shouldn't be taken into account, blabla.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
You used to be better at arguing. Covering your ears while repeating "you're wrong you're wrong nanana" doesn't make you right.
This got to be the biggest pile of BS posted in the backroom in a long while. Are you trying to replace Khadagar_AV?Quote:
Indeed! A few weeks ago, I was in bed with a friend of mine after we came home from a night on out. Just slept, no sex involved at all, the reason she slept here instead of at home is because it was a lot easier to get here at 0400. Now... assume I raped her. She was drunk as hell and in no position to resist, I am also a lot stronger than her. She reports it to the police, we end up in court and what happens? I say it was consensual sex. She says it wasn't. As there are absolutely no more evidence, unless I confess, I go free because of the doubt, especially since there have been a lot of flirting between us in the past.
It is well known that crimes are rarely reported in suburbs that host lot of immigrants. Omerta, law of silence, blackmailling, etc. Your idea that crimes are reported less often when it comes to white people because they have "social networks" is, as Tribesman would put it, utter bollox.
Covering my ears, Meneldil? No mate, what you quoted was a reference to my previous posts, as I didn't really feel like repeating what I have said.
And my statements have been about a specific thing, rape, in a specific region, sweden. If you want to counter those arguments, you will have to argue within that area, as it obviously does not apply to other things(crimes in general) in other places(France).
I eould be happy to discuss immigrant crime in France too of course, but I'd want a start other than "you're an idiot".
EDIT: also, khadagar gets laid. I did not. I can assure you, me and her not having sex sure as hell wasn't my idea...
I got as far as breast fondling and dry humping a year ago, that's the closest I've been with her....
I always wondered something though....
If I remember correctly, the right wants focus on the individual and treated as such. Protecting the individual from the masses. Evils of socialism and all that lot. So why do the 'right' brand a segment of the population and call them evil, even though there are plenty of individuals in that constructed grouping working hard and simply progressing with their lives?
It always struck me as silly and contradictory.
As for crime-statistics, perhaps the conditions, economically and socially for foreigners leads them more likely to commit crime, but on that note, should you stick them all in camps or expel people on the basis of their skin color or religion? Should we tag all Muslims so if they go near someone vulnerable, it sets off an alarm? Where are these solutions outside of "Muslims/coloured people are teh evilz!"
It is a fact that in-group people view out-groups in negative stereotypes. "Those other them are not like us, they are all negative negative!", and this is simply what is occurring.
I am not going to deny statistics, but if I was in power, I would tackle the issues so people were not vulnerable and deal with any of the issues. I can do all of this without going on some bigoted rant saying coloured people are evil as well.
There is a big difference saying there is a "situation in this section we need to deal with" and "all coloured people are evil!". Unfortunately, the ones who advocate the latter cannot tell the different between the former and when called out on their bigoted opinion, cry foul trying to say they the people accusing them as such 'want to get in bed with coloured people and have wet dreams with them', as some one earlier mentioned.
Beskar, I am running out of time now - so to make it short.
The SD doesnt want to send anyone to the gas chambers, nor kick anyone out who is here (except fugitives without citizenship who commit crime, which I deem fair enough).
They do however want to get immigration numbers (henceforth) down to the levels of, say, Norway and Denmark. SD also offers a sum off money for refugees who decide to return to their birth countries.
"You fled - situation in your country calmed down - here is some money so you can return and prosper"
If they want people out, it is with carrots, not with sticks. Something I applaud. I do not think this will work though, as few will go back to, say, Iran, after having been granted citizenship in Sweden. The idea however is def far away from what they are accused of "they will kick the immigrants out".
Sure, Immigration levels doesn't mean that Muslims are evil rapists. I have always been a long time advocate of Population control, in particular, think there should be a pretty universal one child per parent system (Any more kids won't receive any form of benefits from the government, it is your conscious choice to have more kids or not).
My post wasn't in particular against the SD party and their policies, it was in response to some of the posters based on what they said here and in other topics.
If the SD only want to limit immigration and offer non-citizens the chance to return to their country, then there is no actual problem with that. However, if this is simply it, they should say it like this.
SD? Sicherheidsdienst?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Hah! Well spotted!Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
....And you're not that far off, the Swedish democrats had to ban nazi uniforms from their rallies... Yes, definitely no nazi scumbags there :dizzy2:
Beskar, the problem with SD is not really their policys. They would be seen as mainstream in surounding countries, and in many countries they would be seen as leftist bleeding for the immigrant cause.
However, this is Sweden. We have not been very logical for ages. So when I say that SD wants to bring immigration down to surrounding nations level, you must bear in mind that this means they will cut immigration by 90%. You start to see the problem?
"We should have the same immigration as the other European countries" - sounds normal.
"We should cut immigration by 90%" - sounds racistic.
Guess what perspective leftist (read: all) media has on it?
HoreTore, and the Democrats in the state are all slave owners, and the socialistic party in Norway worship Mao? It is true that SD in the beginning attracted a lot of racists. But few political parties origin is without flaws. What I find more interesting is the reforms that has lead to where the party is today. Meaningless arguments like the one you just used might attract some uneducated leftists, but you might want to refrain from using them in any form of civilized debate, non?
If you want to attack the party, then attack their program or budget. You know, their actual policies. What in these do you deem racistic?
No, I think HoreTore is quite right to spell out that the SD was founded as the Swedish fascist party and remained pretty much a simple, unadulterated nazi party until quite recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
The party has reformed the past decade into a populist party. True nazism, hardcore extreme right is now to the right of the SD. That, and the political climate in Europe has hardened to such an extent that what was considered fascist fifteen years ago, is now pretty standard rightwing fare. In fact, considered by its followers to be 'normal', and everything to the left of it as part of the leftwing conspiracy.
Rape data from 2005. Latest big report.
All data taken from different Brå studies.
12% assult rapes, 11% multiperp rapes. Big overlap on those groups.
Number of reported rapes have almost tripled since 2004 to 2009, when a law change was introduced. 5940 reported rapes 2009.
Around 30% was assult rapes during the 70-ties, about 900 reported rapes 1975.
Immigrant crimes from the period 1997-2001. 2005 report. Based on police suspects
Immigrant groups suspected for no crime at all was between 88 compared to 95 procent for Swedes with two Swedish parents, overrisk of being immigrant was 2,5 compared to Swede with both Swedish parents. Larger for some crimes, in particular the more brutal one. Immigrant children are less prone to crime than their parents (that's unusual internationally), except on youth crimes. North African group highest risk group with 3,7 times higher number. North Africans is suspect of 0,7% of total crimes. Middle east 3,0 times higher and 3,4% of total crimes.
For rape, the immigrant value is 5,0 times higher or 0,22% of their part of the population. Can't get data for subsets.
Crime ratio is "Swedified" with time and haven't really changed numbers within the different immigrant groups since the 1985-1989 study. More people from the higher risk groups has arrived though, bumping up total number a bit.
There, some data. Won't really bother to comment, but yes immigration is not good for a country's crime rate. But it isn't the sole reason for the increase in rapes.
About economic costs linky. Since he bothered to link all his data. Not perfect, he's sloppy on the crime number (as evidencied above), since he's doing quick countings, but that doesn't matter much for total cost or main point.
Their homepage was going down (and currently is), so I couldn't fully access it, but I've seen pieces of it and also their full official anti-immigration part. And it is finely written, but is a I said only a small patina.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Integration policy: Was a quote from a DN article and not contradicted by their official immigration policy.
Racists: Well latest incident should be the "arab violence gene". Multiple previous incidents.
Former Nazis: Common knowledge. Very notable in older policies.
Immigration money will support everything and all problems will be solved by the now proud Swedes: That was their whole manifesto for the election 2006 (well and lower taxes for retired people). Most points remains and thier two main documents are written 2005 and long before current election (2007 or 2008 iirc).
More social conservative than KD: Well latest suggestion is more central controlled culture budget to have more "broad and public" culture while making sure that radical and provocing culture gets nothing. They are really using the "verklighetens folk" (people of reality) concept.
Seriously, they have a lot of really horrible policies. And low quality rethorics. Why do you think it's easy to make mockery of them? Or note that if they follow their own policies it becomes bizarre. Sure they get a lot of flac that's only cosisting that they're bad, but they aren't exposed to an evil propaganda machine. Their own statements are enough for that.
Or do really think that they're against immigration to protect the immigrants? They are implying that all over their wed site.
Louis VI the Fat, You are not all wrong. However, immigration question aside, SD mainly share policys with the left wing. So to put them on the right wing might not be all correct. In most social questions SD is to the left of the socialist party!
They are generally hard to get on to the left/right scale, better just call them a populist party.
This is very true. Indeed, the European populist right is economically socialist, and socially nationalist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Perhaps the European populist far right is best described with some imaginative combination of the terms 'national' and 'socialist'. :balloon2:
Easy mockery aside, it remains fascinating that it should be the far right that seeks to protect social democracy in Europe. I have very mixed, sad, and confusing thoughts about that.
Equally fascinating is that the populist electorate are to a great extent former social-democratic voters. And, lastly, that there is enormous resentment of 'the left' within the populist electorate - part ignorance of the very much socialist elements of populist right, part dissapointment and resentment.
Ironside, good post, and I agree with pretty much everything.
Two small things though. About economy, I wouldnt believe his calculations. The Social Democrats and Aftonbladet had the cost at 40bil, so I would rather have that as a "lowest" cost than the 11bil he suggests.
It depends much on how you count though.
It generally felt like 40bil is way to low, as they missed a lot of more "hidden" costs.
Just as an example, schools get funds after what issues they have, a loopsided view one might think. A school with bad results gets way more funds than a school with good results.
I dont like singular examples when speaking economy, but this one might highlight it. A friend of mine, working as teacher, just got his first immigrant child in school, straight from Somalia. And tadaaaa, the school cashed in, as they now need home-language teacher, school psychiatrist, extra teachers, a program for incorporation a.s.o.
As you well may see, most of this money is not counted as money going to immigration, but money to help students. But, let us be real, immigrants are a lot more likely to have the problems generating these money to the school. That is just one example of one of these "hidden" costs.
Second thing I object to is you saying their party program is well written, but just a small patina.
Well, their party program is what they got to election on, and what you cast your vote on. It is also what they have promised to try and fullfill. If they start going crazy at a later stage we will have to deal with it then, but till that happens, we should judge them by the policy they stand for, no?
Otherwise you couldnt vote for pretty much any party, as The Social Democrats are just communists who wants everyone to be the same, the Moderates are capitalist pigs who want to enrich a small elite while starving the working class, the Christian Democrats are religious freaks who want to sterilize all gay people... and... so... on...
So, why not give SD the same benefit of doubt we give the rest, and judge them based on the political policys they campaigned to get through?
Oh, and thanks for correcting HoreTore properly, I just couldnt be bothered.
Nice example on the word twisting. Now I won't dig around more, but that number has to be talking about refugees through relatives or something like that to even make sense. More than 10% of the Swedish immigrants are Swedish citizens for example (almost 14%). Total number was 102 280.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Denmark recieved 65.669 immigrants in 2009, Finland 26 699.
Sweden has fairly low net immigration by international standards.
That number comes from:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Ekberg J. (1999) Immigration and the public sector: Income effects for the native population in
Sweden. Journal of Population Economics 12: 411-430.
Seems to be the only well worked study on on immigration cost, even if I haven't red it. To make a counter example for hidden cost, the immigrant children behaves more as Swedes, so their economic profile will do the same. And they won't be counted as immigrants won't they?
Well, firstly I wouldn't touch their political policies they campaigned on (not only immigration) with a ten foot pole, but might be down to political taste. But the thing with SD is that it also feels like they're a patina covered party that truely wants something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
As I said, SD doesn't want the immigrants here because it's better for the immigrants to not be here according to their own policies. Do anybody find that belivable? Or non-whacky?
Or you can compare what they write to what the facist parties wrote.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Also recall that V, MP and KD is getting occational political flak for being whacky and whacky statements. Ohly is part of the reason the left did poorly this election.
You are noting that I'm basically correcting most people here right? Horetore is vastly exaggerating, but he isn't really wrong. Data is showing on that immigrants are both reported more (heavily implied in the data) and doing more rapes. Assult rapes are decreasing relativly. Sweden's high number is mainly due to different definitions and reporting numbers or we recently imported all rapists from a new countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
That's not just mockery: that's actually accurate, they channel the same political voice that the NSDAP did before it became obsessed with social darwinism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
It's pretty simple, populist right doesn't want to pay for the opium of the elite. Multiculturalism and social engineering are the state religion, and we are heavily taxed atheists. Not our dream, and we don't accept the burden. Not so sure I would vote on these SD guys though, I wonder what they say when they are among themselves, I don't think people so easily adieu such views.
Rubbish, Norway counts everybody born in Norway as ethnic. Majority of these new Norwegians import brides, over 70%. Do them a favour and stop trying to help these integrated muslim ladies by excusing the sick culture they managed to leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
edit: Ah, the first attempted murder http://politisktinkorrekt.info/2010/...-mellanostern/