Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

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Originally Posted by alh_p

Jesus, to be this cold you'd have to be a doctor.

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He's also somewhat undermining his own job now that I think about it. ~D

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

So the Netherlands will give you welfare if you sit on your ass all day and toke up but they won't help cover the costs of handicap children many of whom will become better people than the drug addict whores and scumbags who are causing the state to be in the red.

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Not quite. Fortunately not nearly everyone voted VVD. Cliché, I know, but the way the VVD would have it all money is spent on property speculation & building more roads.

Severly handicapped..... Abort, God forgive me for saying that.


If only miniorly handicapped, no.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

my gut says this is wrong...

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My gut says this is about “justifying” rather more harsh spending cuts in one place, whilst maintaining spending levels elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

How is this different to the rich getting a greater diversity of treatments than others with greater success rates? Or the rich can afford a great sports car which will protect them from high speed crashes far more than the poor sods they might hit? Or being stuck with a CPS lawyer and not a QC? Of course money affects what realistic options one has. Or one can "pay" with time.

The money that a severely handicapped child requires is multiples of my salary, or my wife could stay at home the whole time and we could not have any other children. We could move back to be close to my parents and they could help too. That is a choice I would not make.

Adoption is still an option that avoids abortion and upkeep.

There are many things I would wish for the state to spend money on rather that lost causes such as this.

~:smoking:

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why is a disabled kid a lost cause? lets say richard dawkins (dont know his name for sure, but the dude that sits in a wheelchair and talks with the help of a computer) he is a severely handicapped person, but certainly not a lost cause. he has made some very important contributions to modern science and through that our culture.

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Originally Posted by AntiKingWarmanCake88

Severly handicapped..... Abort, God forgive me for saying that.


If only miniorly handicapped, no.

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but there is the problem of definition. when is someone severely handicapped and when is someone only minor handicapped? ofcourse the extreme cases (completely disabled and mentally retarded vs missing a leg or being blind) are easy, but what about the bordercases? what about a person who can barely move on his own but is extremely intelligent and capable of producing the most astonishing art? and that leads to another question, why should the life of an intelligent handicapped person be valued higher than that of an unintelligent one. To whose interests do we look first in such a case. my intuitions would be that of the child, but apparantly the vvd think tank disagrees and thinks we should look at the interest of the state first.

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

why is a disabled kid a lost cause? lets say richard dawkins (dont know his name for sure, but the dude that sits in a wheelchair and talks with the help of a computer) he is a severely handicapped person, but certainly not a lost cause. he has made some very important contributions to modern science and through that our culture.

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Stephen Hawking.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Stephen Hawking.

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i always mix them up :P

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Originally Posted by alh_p

Jesus, to be this cold you'd have to be a doctor.

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Being close to the reality of situations might help gain perspective in what is a zero sum game.

There will always be the ill. Reallocating would not reduce the number of doctors that could have gainful employment. Besides, I'm a Consultant Pharmaceutical Physician - I'm in drug development.

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

why is a disabled kid a lost cause? lets say richard dawkins (dont know his name for sure, but the dude that sits in a wheelchair and talks with the help of a computer) he is a severely handicapped person, but certainly not a lost cause. he has made some very important contributions to modern science and through that our culture.

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...and if Stalin / Hitler / Mao were found to be irreparably damaged as babies imagine the lives that would have been saved. A sample size of one isn't a valid sample size.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Being close to the reality of situations might help gain perspective in what is a zero sum game.

There will always be the ill. Reallocating would not reduce the number of doctors that could have gainful employment. Besides, I'm a Consultant Pharmaceutical Physician - I'm in drug development.



...and if Stalin / Hitler / Mao were found to be irreparably damaged as babies imagine the lives that would have been saved. A sample size of one isn't a valid sample size.

~:smoking:

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that is a different point all together. why is a person who is physically handicapped a lost cause?

btw since when do you care about saving lives? i thought the world was a cruel place XD

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Ever heard of economics? Popular subject. Might be best to get a primer and have a quick glance. You might learn something.

~:smoking:

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I think there has to be a balance between the protection a state owns its citizens on the one hand, and economic realities on the other. You seem to be concerned only with the latter from the way you have argued here, I'm sure Miotas was aware of the realities of the situation.

So what if we lose out on some of our earning in the tax, that could have been more 'efficiently' spent from a purely materialistic viewpoint? It is worth it to know that if I ever had a disabled child, I could expect help in return. That's one of the main foundations for society and the state.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

...and if Stalin / Hitler / Mao were found to be irreparably damaged as babies imagine the lives that would have been saved. A sample size of one isn't a valid sample size.

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0? Historical forces and all that...

Wow, I would usually just read and say nothing but it is quite a cynic statement. Handicapped people also have the right of helfcare, right to contribute to the society and etc. Their parents should not be punished for the fact they decided to give them a chance to live. It's a matter of choice, not a matter to save money. You won't save enough from that, btw!

i may have used the term punishment wrongly, this because they came with the term guilty, and therefor punishment is the association i make. but perhaps it should more be viewed as changing the entire nature of society, instead of the group taking care of all its members, everyone will take care only of themself. the parents of handicapped children are not really punished they are merely not treated any different then parents who have a normal child. both will have to pay for the descision that they wanted a child. however this will mean that the entire dutch society needs to be changed, because then why should i pay taxes to let someone else kid go to school, for medical treatment etc etc.

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

i may have used the term punishment wrongly, this because they came with the term guilty, and therefor punishment is the association i make. but perhaps it should more be viewed as changing the entire nature of society, instead of the group taking care of all its members, everyone will take care only of themself. the parents of handicapped children are not really punished they are merely not treated any different then parents who have a normal child. both will have to pay for the descision that they wanted a child. however this will mean that the entire dutch society needs to be changed, because then why should i pay taxes to let someone else kid go to school, for medical treatment etc etc.

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Ah, I see. I would dare to turn slightly left (which is not very typical for me) but I fear this may lead to breach in the social solidarity principle. I fear that there will be some people who will drop out of the system and thus, we may create a base for social instability. Of course, this may require certain sacrifices but it is for the sake of stability of the system. Well, I agree some people abuse the system (for various quite complexed reasons) and live on the back of the ordinary taxpayers. But this is a totally different problem that needs to be adressed with other measures, not by dissolving the social solidarity.

Killing unborn children due to a handicap, resembling some of the very arguements of Nazi belief systems and morality.... make me horny...

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

So the Netherlands will give you welfare if you sit on your ass all day and toke up but they won't help cover the costs of handicap children many of whom will become better people than the drug addict whores and scumbags who are causing the state to be in the red.

logical

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Dear oh dear...

Me, I would love it if more of my tax money went to helping 'drug addicted whores'. It is not exactly what these poor women dreamed of when they were six year olds. They played princess with her mother's clothes and make-up. Then something went horrible astray in the next ten-fisteen years.

What's with the agression towards them? Too long in Texas, where the drug addict is scum, to be hunted down, rather than a social-medical problem, to be helped with recovering?


Edit: I myself am a duck-addicted whore though. For a fiver you can tickle my webby toes while I loudly quack for you....

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Dear oh dear...

Me, I would love it if more of my tax money went to helping 'drug addicted whores'. It is not exactly what these poor women dreamed of when they were six year olds. They played princess with her mother's clothes and make-up. Then something went horrible astray in the next ten-fisteen years.

What's with the agression towards them? Too long in Texas, where the drug addict is scum, to be hunted down, rather than a social-medical problem, to be helped with recovering?

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Many poor personal choices are involved in becoming a drug addicted whore in America.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Many poor personal choices are involved in becoming a drug addicted whore in America.

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I too am a firm believer in personal responsibility. However, even the person of poor foresight and weak character deserves compassion, respect for the person.

What is the difference between the drug-addicted whore and the drug-addicted doctor? Mostly that the latter has a firmer social base, limiting the extent of damage of the irresponsible choices.

dunno i think a drug addicted doctor is worse than a drug addicted whore... since the doctor has a much larger responsibility and the errors of judgment made in his practice are more likely to be fatal than that of a whore... though lets no stray too far from the subject :)

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

So the Netherlands will give you welfare if you sit on your ass all day and toke up but they won't help cover the costs of handicap children many of whom will become better people than the drug addict whores and scumbags who are causing the state to be in the red.

logical

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It's just a think-tank all party's have them, libs think tank is composed of hardcore libertarians, party itself is much more moderate I would give this zero chance of passing in the parlement, but creepy thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

It's just a think-tank all party's have them, libs think tank is composed of hardcore libertarians, party itself is much more moderate I would give this zero chance of passing in the parlement, but creepy thoughts.

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Liberal? Hardcore Liberal? They are plain Nazi, just plain Nazi with all their eugenics....

Of course, another way is pull out all social welfare system, and let everyone have a chance purely on their feet (symbolically), but did have social care for handicapped persons, like what they do here, we have no social welfare system and this kind of crazy tought don't spawn because no greedy people try to got more money for themselves.

They aren't nazi's, and this isn't about social-darwinism, they are free-market anarchists who believe every tax is legalized theft.

But it's much easier to throw around emotive / divisive terms than address the issue. "Play the man, not the ball" as Sir Humphry would say.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

They aren't nazi's, and this isn't about social-darwinism, they are free-market anarchists who believe every tax is legalized theft.

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tell them to leave the country and fetch up for themselves. a man who avoid paying taxes without economical poverty reasons, needs fate worse than death because they are the vampires of the society.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

But it's much easier to throw around emotive / divisive terms than address the issue. "Play the man, not the ball" as Sir Humphry would say.

~:smoking:

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Emotional arguments are valid arguments here as it's an ethical issue, it's reducing a human being to a net benefit. I am guilty of doing that as well in immigration debates, but comming here is a choice being born disabled isn't.

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

tell them to leave the country and fetch up for themselves. a man who avoid paying taxes without economical poverty reasons, needs fate worse than death because they are the vampires of the society.

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Can I live, I am very fond of the libertarian idea's on society, remember it's a think-tank, they are supposed to take it to the extreme. It's brain-gymnastics, purily theoratical wizardry.

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

tell them to leave the country and fetch up for themselves. a man who avoid paying taxes without economical poverty reasons, needs fate worse than death because they are the vampires of the society.

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Off on a tangent are we, or just misunderstood? It's about allocation of resources, not paying less.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Emotional arguments are valid arguments here as it's an ethical issue, it's reducing a human being to a net benefit. I am guilty of doing that as well in immigration debates, but comming here is a choice being born disabled isn't.

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No they're not, as I could easily reply that they are killing many others unnecessarily due to reduced funding...

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Off on a tangent are we, or just misunderstood? It's about allocation of resources, not paying less.



No they're not, as I could easily reply that they are killing many others unnecessarily due to reduced funding...

~:smoking:

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actually it is about paying less. the goverment wont spend money on it, cuz they will spend it on something else, they wont spend the money cuz the wont charge the taxes.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

No they're not, as I could easily reply that they are killing many others unnecessarily due to reduced funding...

~:smoking:

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But we can easily afford it, do we want to. When the morality of something is questioned its an ethical question, morality is emotion, or instrumental to emotions of others.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Dear oh dear...

Me, I would love it if more of my tax money went to helping 'drug addicted whores'. It is not exactly what these poor women dreamed of when they were six year olds. They played princess with her mother's clothes and make-up. Then something went horrible astray in the next ten-fisteen years.

What's with the agression towards them? Too long in Texas, where the drug addict is scum, to be hunted down, rather than a social-medical problem, to be helped with recovering?


Edit: I myself am a duck-addicted whore though. For a fiver you can tickle my webby toes while I loudly quack for you....

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I have never understood why (recoverd) addicts get lavished with such praise.

Being so addicted to something that it makes a pesron useless to socitey is something 99% of the population can avoid doing. Instead of lavishing praise on them we should hand them a card that says "Welcome back to the baseline" and give them a drive through walkie

It is utterly disgusting to see people piss there lives away and it is even more disgusting to see these people still sucking at the tit of the nanny state while a think tank proposes that to put less stress on the government payroll we abort retarded babies.

If unborn children could vote I suspect this would be a different story.

Now this does not mean I am opposed to abortion or some form of a government saftey net but I beilive the government saftey net would be much better if it was geared toward the working poor instead, including retards who bag groceries and are happy to be there.

A genuis drug addict is worth less to society than an imbecile. It is much better to allocate rescources to him

Let's kill all the people on welfare for more than 6 months. Crack open there skulls, scramble there brains, and throw them in a dumpster. That'll releive stress on the goverenment dole to.

European logic is literally ass backwards