A Discussion on the necessity of the Rebellion and portrayal of the Galactic Empire

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Or maybe Lucas shows how he didn't know how to write a proper script since 1975.

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I wish I couldn't write proper scripts like that.

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Originally Posted by CBR

One thing is to have a super weapon, another thing is how it is used. Blowing up Alderaan was not because Tarkin was "a little antsy". That act, along with the Emperor dissolving the Imperial Senate, sets up the Empire to be a dictatorship that use total destruction at whim. Most people would consider that evil.

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Alright, but does one evil act (as huge scale as it may be) condone an entire rebellion, resulting in the loss of billions, possibly trillions of lives? And does that same single act justify the overthrow of an entire empire, resulting in total and complete disunification in the galaxy, as well as a period of anarchy present in any revolution? Plus, the Rebellion after the movies would still have to fight the Empire on every world the remnants (basically....the entire Empire, since only a small, small, small percentage were on the Death Star's) occupied, causing greater destruction and chaos then there would have been without a Rebellion.

Again, I believe that individual events, personal rights etc. is one thing, but you have to look at the big picture. Is the Empire probably there for the greater good? yes. The Sith have no reason to want the entire Galaxy destroyed, so it's not like they would just go on a planet destroying campaign for S&G's. They did what thye felt necessary to stop the Rebellion, despite the negative backlash. All-in-all, they are interested in the greater good of the galaxy.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

You Imperials got me thinking. We know from the movies that a stormtrooper could not hit the broadside of a barn door from 3 inches. Now in the Jawa incident Obi-wan points out the the precision of the shots and linking such precision to the stormtroopers - which we movie-goers can now recognize as a lie. Seems that only a Jedi could shoot with that much precision, and there seems to be only one Jedi around...a Jedi who knows that Luke's aunt and uncle are the one thing keeping Luke from galavanting across the galaxy with him. Old Ben Kenobi ain't so crazy after all...

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Maybe he thought they were like better quality stormtroopers? snipers? maybe even clones. I dont know, maybe hes a blind old man and he cant tell for a crap the difference. If he did in fact shoot them dead, then is it not an evil act, similar to how the Sith go about their actions? perhaps he is an agent of the Sith, sent to push Luke to the Dark Side without seeming to be.....

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

I wish I couldn't write proper scripts like that.

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No you don't. You want to write the next Phantom Menace?

Great my first foray into the backroom and I the first thread I find has devolved into "George loose-cas sux" before I even get here.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Great my first foray into the backroom and I the first thread I find has devolved into "George loose-cas sux" before I even get here.

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I am not saying "George Lucas sux". I am saying that George Lucas can't write a full script properly and needs editors to make it good enough and consistent. The prequel trilogy Lucas had full reign and complete control with little resistance to his ideas and the quality of them became terrible for it.

Watch the prequel trilogy reviews from redlettermedia and see the movies diagnosed to a good degree.

...I retract my last statement...
...God that guys voice is creepy.

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Originally Posted by Prussian Iron

Alright, but does one evil act (as huge scale as it may be) condone an entire rebellion, resulting in the loss of billions, possibly trillions of lives?

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The Rebellion was already there. But it is the Emperor who removes the remaining way of dialogue by dissolving the senate. We can only guess at how many lives that already have been lost at the hand of the Emperor as he built up his power.

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And does that same single act justify the overthrow of an entire empire, resulting in total and complete disunification in the galaxy, as well as a period of anarchy present in any revolution?

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We do not know if it would result in disunification. From the movies it appears that multiple species work together, so it might simply be the structure of the old republic that finally get together when they realise that only armed resistance will stop the Emperor.

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Plus, the Rebellion after the movies would still have to fight the Empire on every world the remnants (basically....the entire Empire, since only a small, small, small percentage were on the Death Star's) occupied, causing greater destruction and chaos then there would have been without a Rebellion.

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Perhaps but maybe not that likely when the Empire is so centralised as it is. With the Emperor gone it could fall apart very quickly as there is little to fight for.

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Is the Empire probably there for the greater good? yes.

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Whose greater good? The Emperor wants absolute power. All we ever see from the Empire are big warships, stormtroopers, Deathstars and arbitrary violence to stay in power.

We are told that "the regional governors will have direct control over their territories" That suggests the Emperor does not care much about what happens at the local level. It is all about fear and control as the Emperor just wants to be at the top all by himself.

I see nothing about any greater good. All seems to point towards a quest for power and greed.

The big picture is one of continuous oppression with loss of life and wasted resources needed to maintain a big military, all to stay in power.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

You Imperials got me thinking. We know from the movies that a stormtrooper could not hit the broadside of a barn door from 3 inches. Now in the Jawa incident Obi-wan points out the the precision of the shots and linking such precision to the stormtroopers - which we movie-goers can now recognize as a lie. Seems that only a Jedi could shoot with that much precision, and there seems to be only one Jedi around...a Jedi who knows that Luke's aunt and uncle are the one thing keeping Luke from galavanting across the galaxy with him. Old Ben Kenobi ain't so crazy after all...

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Awesome post.

This thread delivers. :beam:

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Originally Posted by CBR

The Rebellion was already there. But it is the Emperor who removes the remaining way of dialogue by dissolving the senate. We can only guess at how many lives that already have been lost at the hand of the Emperor as he built up his power.

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The Rebellion was already there? As in pre-Empire? Source?

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We do not know if it would result in disunification. From the movies it appears that multiple species work together, so it might simply be the structure of the old republic that finally get together when they realise that only armed resistance will stop the Emperor.

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Okay, I'll go halfway and say it wouldn't result in complete disunification, but without a centralized and established government, you can rest assured that most if not all the colonies would break free of any sort of rule, and that you would definitely have a lot of planets disassociating themselves from the Rebellion. The effect is still felt, though, being that you now have thousands of sovereign worlds to deal with.

Partially to your multi-species alliance and to others saying that the Empire was racist against all non-humans, I would say that is probably wrong. Yes, the only Imperials we see are stormtroopers (humans), but does that mean there are not militias levied on other planets under the Imperial name? No. It is common trade for large Empires and Kingdoms to raise a local Militia under their name and allegiance, but made up of the natives. So I have no doubt that on certain worlds where the natives could be trusted (not Kashyyk obviously), there were definitely local militias working for the empire, using their weapons and possibly vehicles.

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Perhaps but maybe not that likely when the Empire is so centralised as it is. With the Emperor gone it could fall apart very quickly as there is little to fight for.

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Have you taken into account the massive amounts of troops employed by the Empire? The Emperor would not be so short-sighted so as to leave them leaderless. The Moffs would and did direct them to fight the New Republic, causing huge amounts of devestation and death. Far more than would happen if the Rebellion had not defeated the Empire. Plus, do you think all these soldiers will simply return home? No. I don't remember who or what it was, but I do remember that at least one time in the Crusades, an entire army basically went leaderless and rampaged across the Holy Land, killing indiscriminatly. That would be the disbanded Imperial Remnants, only on a far bigger and worse scale.

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Whose greater good? The Emperor wants absolute power. All we ever see from the Empire are big warships, stormtroopers, Deathstars and arbitrary violence to stay in power.

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As stated in the opening paragraphs of this article (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong_War), the Emperor did in fact know that an invasion would be coming, and in response built enormous fleets and superweapons. That sounds like the greater good if you ask me, and because of the fall of the Empire, this invasion ended up taking trillions of lives, rather than maybe a max of a few million.

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The big picture is one of continuous oppression with loss of life and wasted resources needed to maintain a big military, all to stay in power.

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Loss of life? Not hardly. The Empire did not run around killing people for fun. Anyone who was killed was a threat to the Empire, and was taken care of appropriately. Do we not do the same in our world?

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Originally Posted by Prussian Iron

The Rebellion was already there? As in pre-Empire? Source?

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As in before before the Death Star blew up a planet. The Emperor has been in power or at least increasing his power for about 20 years before Episode IV. It is safe to assume the resistance had only been growing.

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Okay, I'll go halfway and say it wouldn't result in complete disunification, but without a centralized and established government, you can rest assured that most if not all the colonies would break free of any sort of rule, and that you would definitely have a lot of planets disassociating themselves from the Rebellion. The effect is still felt, though, being that you now have thousands of sovereign worlds to deal with.

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Since the Republic seems to have been very peaceful it is fair to assume that a large part of the planets were quite happy with the arrangement. It is only because of the trickery by Palpatine that he is given so much power to fight the threat he himself has created.

Although I don't even like to drag in the last three movies, they show a Republic which clearly is not prepared to handle any serious threat. That would suggest that there had been no big wars or rebellions for a very long time.

The question also stands as to why the Emperor would dissolve a senate if a majority of the planets loved it so much. I'd say he removed it because all he had was trouble from the senators. The more powerful he became the larger and more open the resistance. He wanted to remove it to decentralise the opposition.

In the early part of Episode IV the senate is mentioned several times as something that cause trouble, and even that it would be dangerous if word got out of the attack on the consular ship. Darth Vader gives the order to make it appear that all got killed. So they are doing what they can to hide the truth from the senate.

If we look at the Rebellion we see how it starts out as senators doing clandestine missions and a hidden rebel base to a point where they can gather large fleets. IMO that shows how the Rebellion is gathering momentum and the Emperor already has lost control over parts of the Empire.

Plus what is this about building Death Star 2.0 around a small forest moon that has absolutely no infrastructure to handle it. Why does the Emperor need to hide it? I'm sure the Emperor would sit in chair and claim "I have foreseen this" and it all would be a hugely expensive and elaborate plan to trick the "small band" of rebels into getting wiped out. But why even need it if he was in so much control of the galaxy?

So yes, the Emperor has the military might but that is really the only thing that keeps him in power. The Rebellion should be seen as the Old Republic fighting back.

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Have you taken into account the massive amounts of troops employed by the Empire? The Emperor would not be so short-sighted so as to leave them leaderless.

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I guess most soldiers have not been recruited to be part of an evil empire but because it was the right thing to do, or so they thought. Control of information is important as described above. Plus I think Imperial power is more about dominating space with grand fleets than having a gazillion foot soldiers anyway. That is why a Death Star was needed as only a few planets had any real Imperial presence. It is also why we see huge Super Star Destroyers. It is all about shock and awe to keep everyone in check.

I'm sure there would several high ranking leaders (and very ruthless too) but the problem is that with the Emperor gone so is the Empire as there is no heir or legitimacy anymore. Maybe some of them would fight hard, maybe not. They would be the remnants of evil that just had to be destroyed.

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As stated in the opening paragraphs of this article (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong_War), the Emperor did in fact know that an invasion would be coming, and in response built enormous fleets and superweapons.

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Maybe that is considered canon but I don't care too much about it really. It is all stuff made up to keep the universe alive and sell more books and games. There is nothing in the movies that suggest a big external threat looming ahead. And it still does not justify turning into an emperor and blowing up peaceful planets.

Why did he not convince the Republic about such a threat? He was good at making up all the other stuff. It just does not make much sense except to keep a story going that involves conflict and which works great for more books and games.

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Loss of life? Not hardly. The Empire did not run around killing people for fun. Anyone who was killed was a threat to the Empire, and was taken care of appropriately. Do we not do the same in our world?

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Yes dictatorships generally kill who they perceive as a threat to them. I'm sure a lot of them did not like it but they had simply convinced themselves that it was what had to be done.

Tarkin simply signed an order for the execution of Leia and blew up Alderaan because they were in the neighbourhood anyway. Can you find anything that resembles that in our world, among democratic nations?

ugh, im too tired to respond right now. tomorrow though.

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Originally Posted by Prussian Iron

ugh, im too tired to respond right now. tomorrow though.

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Take all the time you need.

But I would say that if you want to bring in all material, which is perfectly fine since it apparently is canon, then the link you provided does create a different picture of who Palpatine was and his reasons for doing what he did.

So when I base my opinion purely on the movies we won't be able to reach any consensus as we use a different set of sources.

So perhaps it would be better to simply agree to disagree. :bow:

Well I intended on using just the movies, but I already knew that Palpatine had to have a reason, and I even stated prior to my seeing that article that he would have foreseen attacks from without, causing a large buildup of Imperial military. I just used that to reinforce it.

This is why none of us get laid

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

This is why none of us get laid

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Or the result of not getting laid. There is that annoying causality stuff again...

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This is why none of us get laid

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Well with that attitude your definitely not getting laid.

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Originally Posted by CBR

Or the result of not getting laid. There is that annoying causality stuff again...

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lol, Chicken or the egg

All this talk on fertilisation makes me want to spend some time alone.

The obvious proof of the Empire's evilness is in the music. The Imperial March is not the theme song of a bunch of peace and freewill hippies.

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Originally Posted by Prussian Iron

Well I intended on using just the movies, but I already knew that Palpatine had to have a reason, and I even stated prior to my seeing that article that he would have foreseen attacks from without, causing a large buildup of Imperial military. I just used that to reinforce it.

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He's part of an organisation that have tried to wipe out the Jedi order in thousands of years. To maintain proper treason levels within this organisation, they've decided to use the rule of two for about 1000 years.

Be one dude, with one apprentice, disband the main governing body and you'll need quite a big army to control your new empire.

There's also that tiny point of that you don't need to be a grand ruler to ensure that there's warnings about the threat and cause a military build up. In particular when being a master manipulator. It's the equivalent of justifying a spy master to become dictator because he predicted a war.

Except this was a republic with no standing army untill he was in power, somehow I doubt palpatine exactly would want to trust those people to win a galaxy scale war.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Except this was a republic with no standing army untill he was in power, somehow I doubt palpatine exactly would want to trust those people to win a galaxy scale war.

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True. A state the size of the Republic could not have survived any serious invasions without a standing army. Relying on clones all created on one planet for all of your security needs is not a safe bet. A standing army recruited and payed aka the Stormtroopers and Imperial Navy? Definitely more stable and reliable.

I'm not sure if they even had a standing army in the period between kotor and attack of the clones.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

You Imperials got me thinking. We know from the movies that a stormtrooper could not hit the broadside of a barn door from 3 inches. Now in the Jawa incident Obi-wan points out the the precision of the shots and linking such precision to the stormtroopers - which we movie-goers can now recognize as a lie. Seems that only a Jedi could shoot with that much precision, and there seems to be only one Jedi around...a Jedi who knows that Luke's aunt and uncle are the one thing keeping Luke from galavanting across the galaxy with him. Old Ben Kenobi ain't so crazy after all...

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Lucas apologists like to hold to the belief that the Stormtroopers were shooting poorly on purpose. Because the master plan to find the rebel base on Yavin needed them to escape.



And it should also be noted that the Empire, under a new dynasty of "gray" force users, wins in the end. It never totally collapsed after Palpatine (who wasn't a hereditary monarch, but an elected one) died the first time. The pro-rebel planets immediately went over. But the New Republic had to wage a 20 year war just to get Corusant, and most of the old Republic, under their control. And the Yuuzhan Vong destroyed the New Republic after only a few years. They had to re-form a new pan-galactic state called Galactic Federation of Free Alliances. Which itself went the same authoritarian way as the Empire. Which caused it to nearly fold like the Empire had. And the Empire under the rule of those gray force users, the Fel dynasty, swooped in as the bringers of law, order, and justice. Owning to their Victory without war policy to spread the views of the New Order. Without the side order of militarist jack-boot to the gut.

So really the Galactic Empire, like the Galactic Republic it was the official successor to, was stable. Over the long term. And once it had purged itself of the highly destabilizing Sith influence. Their whole superiority at any cost attitude always makes any government they form shaky.

/NERD!

The thing that annoys me about Star Wars politics isn't the fact that it is totally absent, but that it sorta tries to be a kinda semi-political film, but it fails UTTERLY. For example, take the Separatists. What are their goals, other than to separate. Nobody knows. It's a complete mystery. Other than the fact that they kill Jedi, we have no idea that these are bad guys. This doesn't just fail from my political-nerd viewpoint, but it completely fails to produce any kind of emotion when we see the Confederacy getting battered (the fact that they're droids doesn't help). What kind of other film would we consider good when we do not care at all about whether who we are told are the bad guys triumphs or not?

Likewise, for Palpatine to mastermind his entire political ascendency and plan without ever once being suspected of treason is so ludicrously fantastical as to be far beyond the political abilities and cunning of Pericles, Cicero, Tokugawa, Gladstone, Bismarck, Stalin, FDR, De Gaulle, Nixon and Chirac COMBINED and IN SPACE. It is so annoying watching Palpatine rise up on his elevator of evil, whilst the stupidest and most obtuse "politicians" that have ever dared to be scripted on to the silver screen remain oblivious to his ascent. Even Yoda, allegedly the wisest Jedi evarrrr doesn't even guess a thing!

As well as a whole host of other things, such as why didn't everyone in the universe freak out when Order 66 was implemented and how the hell did anyone let Jar Jar pass the Military Creation Act in replacement of Amidala, who had been leading the fight AGAINST the act.... Good god. Star Wars politics make me mad.

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Originally Posted by Prussian Iron

True. A state the size of the Republic could not have survived any serious invasions without a standing army. Relying on clones all created on one planet for all of your security needs is not a safe bet. A standing army recruited and payed aka the Stormtroopers and Imperial Navy? Definitely more stable and reliable.

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Wait, let's stop here for a second. Before the Clone Wars, the Republic supposedly had no standing army. It was with the Clone Wars that Palpatine came to power, and it was with the Clone Wars that the military build-up of the Republic/Empire truly began. There's nothing quite wrong with relying on a huge Clone Army. Did the similarities in uniforms and equipment between the clone and imperials ever strike you as... odd? The clone troops were the roots of the imperial military forces.

Subotan, I think you need to go to Tosche Station to pick up some power converters. ~:pat:

Star Wars is an escapist sci-fi/fantasy adventure film, not a politcal drama. Nor do the films delve into the intracacies of galactic politics - just some sound bites to give the action context. As Freud once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." :laugh4:

I'm guessing subotan's a song of ice and fire fan.

That's the problem though, it tries to be everything at once, a bit political, a bit sci-fi, a bit family etc. I mean, the latest Star Trek film is I think it's really great and really entertaining to watch, despite there being no politics at all. On the other hand, I adore Starship Troopers for it's ruthless and bitter satire of fascism. Star Wars, especially the prequels, tries to land somewhere in the middle and completely fails. The politics has enough of a presence to be noticeable, but not enough to be worthwhile.

EDIT: Haha, no I'm not actually, although I've heard good things about them. I mainly read political biography for fun - my Christmas presents this year were biographies of John Adams and De Gaulle :D

Well its worth reading, there's 7 noble houses more interesting characters than you can shake a stick at. Not to mention its pretty brutal when it comes to how life isn't fair. Plus if all goes well I'll be starting a mafia game based on it soon. :beam: