The Le Pens, The French Political Gift that keeps on giving.

The left did betray it's values, they used to on the barricades for women and gay rights, now they go on the barricades for the right to wear a tent, completely uninterested in the hidden misery behind it, makes them feel good about themselves. Progressives catering the ultra-conservative all the while congratulating theirselves and eachother on their cosmopolitism. The left is hopelessly lost and will not recover, they are the orchestra on the Titanic.

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nope, there is nothing right-wing about encouraging banks to be too big to fail, and then being forced to prop up those banks precisely because they are too big to fail.

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There is nothing rightwing about it, but it was an excessive belief in the "freemarkets beauty" which allowed these particular banks to get too big, so the blame is at the door of rightwing financial theory this time.

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i don't care about bankers bonuses, they are not (generally) on the public payroll and exist through private means, if they want to be paid in private islands populated by dancing girls that is fine by me. i choose not to work as hard as they do, and as such i do not expect the same rewward.

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They may not be on the public payroll theoretically but they benefiting from the governments investment in the public. Most western nations far as I can tell invest in things like education, healthcare and law and order etc this creates a society where a large scale financial business can operate safely. Shareholders who are the most mobile stakeholder of a bank seem to have no problem with bankers pay likely cos it encourages high share prices which benefits them.

We know short term thinking allied with complete ignorance of the financial products bankers were selling was at the heart of this last crisis therefore pay needs reforming. The bonus culture of the banks in a so called free banking market leads one to the conclusion they are somehow protecting entry to the financial market.

Seeing as rampant financialism was at the heart of this crisis we need to do one of two things. We either enable easier entry to the market for banks or we restrict there ability to gorge themselves on credit and pay.

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

There is nothing rightwing about it, but it was an excessive belief in the "freemarkets beauty" which allowed these particular banks to get too big, so the blame is at the door of rightwing financial theory this time.

They may not be on the public payroll theoretically but they benefiting from the governments investment in the public. Most western nations far as I can tell invest in things like education, healthcare and law and order etc this creates a society where a large scale financial business can operate safely. Shareholders who are the most mobile stakeholder of a bank seem to have no problem with bankers pay likely cos it encourages high share prices which benefits them.
We know short term thinking allied with complete ignorance of the financial products bankers were selling was at the heart of this last crisis therefore pay needs reforming. The bonus culture of the banks in a so called free banking market leads one to the conclusion they are somehow protecting entry to the financial market.
Seeing as rampant financialism was at the heart of this crisis we need to do one of two things. We either enable easier entry to the market for banks or we restrict there ability to gorge themselves on credit and pay.

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in my opinion the problem of banks being too big to fail was the result of poor regulation and not a lack of regulation, but i can appreciate how the mud would stick.

likewise, i accept that the current bonus system did encourage short-termism that was bad for both the bank and the wider economy, and i am happy to see it reformed, i just reject the emotional diarrhoea of 'fairness' that justifies the removal of bonuses for moral reasons. the they-have-too-much-money brigade need to taken round the back of the shed and quietly shot.

To be fair to the left, it's not as if left-leaning politicians suddenly became delusional en masse and abandoned their core vote; their core vote abandoned them. As people, including the working class, have got richer and moved up in social status, their ties to their old ideologies have weakened and eventually broken. Surely that shows a huge success of the social democratic left in Europe, by lifting millions and millions out of what was basically poverty or menial labour and into higher standards of living, all whilst retaining their compassion and democratic principles, as opposed to what China is doing now.

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Originally Posted by Subotan

To be fair to the left, it's not as if left-leaning politicians suddenly became delusional en masse and abandoned their core vote; their core vote abandoned them. As people, including the working class, have got richer and moved up in social status, their ties to their old ideologies have weakened and eventually broken. Surely that shows a huge success of the social democratic left in Europe, by lifting millions and millions out of what was basically poverty or menial labour and into higher standards of living, all whilst retaining their compassion and democratic principles, as opposed to what China is doing now.

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even if i were to accept what you say the question would still remain: is the left going to evolve to meet a political need of today, or say "job done" and then wither away to nothing as its stunted evolution becomes ever less relevant to a the wider electorate?

It has evolved to meet the political need of today, which I support, as opposed to withering away to redundancy, which Brenus seems to support.

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Originally Posted by Subotan

To be fair to the left, it's not as if left-leaning politicians suddenly became delusional en masse and abandoned their core vote; their core vote abandoned them. As people, including the working class, have got richer and moved up in social status, their ties to their old ideologies have weakened and eventually broken. Surely that shows a huge success of the social democratic left in Europe, by lifting millions and millions out of what was basically poverty or menial labour and into higher standards of living, all whilst retaining their compassion and democratic principles, as opposed to what China is doing now.

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But the core vote didn't abandoned them then, they are abandoning them now, this is not about economy it's about immigration; that's why they flock to the FN and BNP. The left has become a sectarian aristocracy who know what's best for you, 'do as we say not as we do', they themselves live in 100% white upper class neighborhoods and expect you to shut up.

TBH Frag it is even more complicated than that much of what the Left campaigned for like workers rights education health blah blah is just seen as part of normal society now and pretty much all rightwing european parties see it as a benefit to the economy.

I see the real problem for the Left being it's reliance on state employees as voters, once they start to agitate for what ever reason it affects us all and it annoys the hell out of people.

indeed, the client state has always been a problem with labour.

Yes, what used to be a matter for Parliament is now a matter for the Judiciary as demands have become laws. You can't campaign on preventing 18 hour days for 12 year old children, most forms of discrimination or dangers in the workplace as most of this is routinely taken care of, with the few issues not covered are overseen by a governmental agency.

So, what's left?

Protecting jobs. Except that that is Protectionism, is against International law and generally fails to work.
Protecting people's rights? Oh, but then we also have to be open to all cultures who often discriminate on gender and religion as a matter of course. Better leave that one alone.
Protecting the countryside? Well, maybe. Except we need loads more houses for the poor, and the Rich generally own the land so building loads of houses is a good idea... but it isn't green so it is a bad idea...
Education? Most studies have shown that improving the standing of teachers and teacher salaries makes more of a difference than reducing class sizes... but that will increase income disparity which is bad and will stop us becoming a classless utopia.
Law and order? Clearly that is a bad thing. Police are by definition Right Wing and thus need sorting out. More minorities... except that it's discrimination to do so, and so technically against the law...
Encouraging Industry? Tough one that. Clearly we need more Industry as it provides people with jobs, but this will only encourage Industrialists who are also a Bad Thing as they earn too much. Nationalised companies like in the 1960's / 70's? Except that it was probably on average cheaper to have people on the dole.
Helping Farmers? We could do. As long as they're not too rich. Else they are suspiciously like Landed Gentry who are Bad. and we can't pay them to make the countryside look like as this only benefits the Middle / Upper classes, not the working classes who can't be bothered to go to the countryside. But protecting the countryside is a good Green thing to do, and producing food locally is also good. Perhaps we could have a department to ensure only farmers earning below a certain threshold and with farms below a certain size get assistance.
Armed Forces? Definitely Bad. Class-based. Although people do seem to support their local regiments. The people are clearly Wrong in this and need to be Re-Educated.

So, we're left with increasing the size of government as that is a Good Thing as who can argue against more support workers for every disadvantaged group, and it helps soak up unemployment at the same time.
NHS. Aaaah, the NHS. Like an infinite sponge, it can absorb almost all money that is thrown at it. We can campaign to throw more money at it.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

TBH Frag it is even more complicated than that much of what the Left campaigned for like workers rights education health blah blah is just seen as part of normal society now and pretty much all rightwing european parties see it as a benefit to the economy.

I see the real problem for the Left being it's reliance on state employees as voters, once they start to agitate for what ever reason it affects us all and it annoys the hell out of people.

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I think it's safe to assume that for those going to the right immigration is priority, if you are a social-democrate the likes like FN or BNP are a big step. Immigration used to be a problem only for the lower classes but middle-class is now starting to notice it as well, it's really the middle class they are losing, that is always byebye. And you are right about dependence on the vote of goverment workers, the guys who inform you your shed is 20 cm too high

To take an example of relative decline of the left we will know the extreme right has evolved into a new force if it is capable in the UK of making common cause between the native english and the first and second generation Irish. Many Irish still have ties to the homeland through family even to third generation thats a huge demographic of potential voters who are naturally rural conservative. I see it more and more that BNP and extreme types talk of more hazy concepts like judeo-christainity blah blah and allowing people from the "Home Islands" as they style them to stay.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Yes, what used to be a matter for Parliament is now a matter for the Judiciary as demands have become laws. You can't campaign on preventing 18 hour days for 12 year old children, most forms of discrimination or dangers in the workplace as most of this is routinely taken care of, with the few issues not covered are overseen by a governmental agency.

So, what's left?

Protecting jobs. Except that that is Protectionism, is against International law and generally fails to work.
Protecting people's rights? Oh, but then we also have to be open to all cultures who often discriminate on gender and religion as a matter of course. Better leave that one alone.
Protecting the countryside? Well, maybe. Except we need loads more houses for the poor, and the Rich generally own the land so building loads of houses is a good idea... but it isn't green so it is a bad idea...
Education? Most studies have shown that improving the standing of teachers and teacher salaries makes more of a difference than reducing class sizes... but that will increase income disparity which is bad and will stop us becoming a classless utopia.
Law and order? Clearly that is a bad thing. Police are by definition Right Wing and thus need sorting out. More minorities... except that it's discrimination to do so, and so technically against the law...
Encouraging Industry? Tough one that. Clearly we need more Industry as it provides people with jobs, but this will only encourage Industrialists who are also a Bad Thing as they earn too much. Nationalised companies like in the 1960's / 70's? Except that it was probably on average cheaper to have people on the dole.
Helping Farmers? We could do. As long as they're not too rich. Else they are suspiciously like Landed Gentry who are Bad. and we can't pay them to make the countryside look like as this only benefits the Middle / Upper classes, not the working classes who can't be bothered to go to the countryside. But protecting the countryside is a good Green thing to do, and producing food locally is also good. Perhaps we could have a department to ensure only farmers earning below a certain threshold and with farms below a certain size get assistance.
Armed Forces? Definitely Bad. Class-based. Although people do seem to support their local regiments. The people are clearly Wrong in this and need to be Re-Educated.

So, we're left with increasing the size of government as that is a Good Thing as who can argue against more support workers for every disadvantaged group, and it helps soak up unemployment at the same time.
NHS. Aaaah, the NHS. Like an infinite sponge, it can absorb almost all money that is thrown at it. We can campaign to throw more money at it.

~:smoking:

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lulz, that made me giggle. nice·

[edit] can anyone tell me how i accidental made that hovering dot at the end of "nice"? [/edit]

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

To take an example of relative decline of the left we will know the extreme right has evolved into a new force if it is capable in the UK of making common cause between the native english and the first and second generation Irish. Many Irish still have ties to the homeland through family even to third generation thats a huge demographic of potential voters who are naturally rural conservative. I see it more and more that BNP and extreme types talk of more hazy concepts like judeo-christainity blah blah and allowing people from the "Home Islands" as they style them to stay.

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FN and BNP are absolute scum they blame immigrants for poor policy, that is wrong and stupid, but labour is like a mammoth-tanker heading to an iceberg with almost empty tanks but it's too costly to divert direction as it costs even more fuel. If they want to get back to their values they would have to kthxbye their new ones.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

[edit] can anyone tell me how i accidental made that hovering dot at the end of "nice"? [/edit]

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'·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·' · '·.·'

You mean floating dots, like this '· · ·' ?


Nah, I couldn't tell you ·

.·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·. · .·'·.

damn you!

I know how: '·.·' · '·.·'

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