The Palestine Papers

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

oh i agree, there was lots of empathising and hand-wringing over hard fought compromise positions, and that it had nothing to do with the fact that by the end of the eighties the british secret services had the IRA compromised to the point where:
> their head of internal security was a stooge who set up good and loyal car-bombers in order to protect other British agents,
> their weapons caches were sabotaged and booby-trapped,
> their operations were known in advance often resulting in ambushes murderous,

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I think you overestimate the amount of infiltration of the IRA although I agree there was a a large amount of it going on. Weapons were never really the IRA's thing when you think on it, I mean it was all homemade bombs and mortars etc.

And while some operations were know in advance the reality is many slipped through cos of the nature of a terrorist organisation.

The way I see it the real progress started after Thatcher and Haughey left, there had been plenty talks under Thatcher's reign but she saw things far to black and white, not a good starting place when dealing with terrorists, plus she just did not like Haughey. The talks in the early 90's under Reynolds and Major had a lot to do with starting what we have today.

The saddest thing, out of a host of sad things to choose from, is how brutalized and militarized this has made both societies. Israel, as a democracy, had an opportunity to be an enlightened state. That's gone now. And the Palestinians had a chance to constructively guide their own future. Gone.

Because I need to get through my day and do constructive work, I don't let myself contemplate the Israeli-Palestinian axis of stupidity too often.

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

I think you overestimate the amount of infiltration of the IRA although I agree there was a a large amount of it going on. Weapons were never really the IRA's thing when you think on it, I mean it was all homemade bombs and mortars etc.

And while some operations were know in advance the reality is many slipped through cos of the nature of a terrorist organisation.

The way I see it the real progress started after Thatcher and Haughey left, there had been plenty talks under Thatcher's reign but she saw things far to black and white, not a good starting place when dealing with terrorists, plus she just did not like Haughey. The talks in the early 90's under Reynolds and Major had a lot to do with starting what we have today.

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she was a useful product for her stage in the conflict; the uncompromising and ruthless premier who set the scene nicely for a good-cop/bad-cop routine.

its the joy of democracy, you pretend that all has changed whilst still advancing your aims. an obama moment if you will.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Israel, as a democracy, had an opportunity to be an enlightened state. That's gone now.

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Oh. Nah it's an enlighted state besieged, of course radicalism is on both sides, and colonists are the tip of the spear of zionism, but so are the Palestians for radical islam and arab nationalism (same thing really but alas), but Israel has the means to settle things and they don't. I admire their restraint in using violence rather than condemning their psychotic episodes.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Indeed. You can't make peace by talking to your friends, only with your enemies. The only way to get a lasting peace is for the hard-liners in Israel to agree with the hard-liners in Palestine, otherwise those two groups will do their utmost to sabotage any solutions put forth by more moderate Israelis/Palestinians.

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That is true.

I don’t see it happening but it is very true.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Terrorists are real they exist, Israel shouldn't have to negotiate in the first place for these territories the arabs attacked and they lost. Perfectly normal, that. But they sure could be a bit more constructive in finding a longterm solution, looks like Fatah looks a little further ahead.

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Actualy, in the first place, the territories in question were stolen by the Zionists.

But in the here and now, there is no question the Israelis see great merit in keeping the Palestinians under the Isreali boot. A negotiated peace in the last thing Isreal wants because it would close the door on future expansion. Ongoing hostilities would "justify" future Isreali attacks and annexation of territories. The Israelis would be able to continue to play the "moral card" they play so well.

Keeping the Palestinians from appearing human is Israel's goal. As long as the Palestinians look like wounded animals, they don't have to be treated as human. They can be treated as... less than human. Not quite equal to the rest of us. The world has always had disposable people. Once it was the blacks, then it was the Jews; now it's the Palestinians.

The gift that keeps on giving...


Palestinian negotiators agreed only 10,000 Palestinians could return
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...-return-israel

The PLO agreed Israel could be a 'Jewish state'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...h-state-papers

Condoleezza Rice suggested Palestinian refugees moved to Latin America. Personally I wonder why Condy Rice proposed Chile or Argentina instead of good old Madagaskar...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...-south-america

questions questions http://debka.com/article/20582/

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ryingwoman.jpg

interesting article from Stephen Pollard:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ast-peace.html

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

oh i agree, there was lots of empathising and hand-wringing over hard fought compromise positions, and that it had nothing to do with the fact that by the end of the eighties the british secret services had the IRA compromised to the point where:

> their head of internal security was a stooge who set up good and loyal car-bombers in order to protect other British agents,
> their weapons caches were sabotaged and/or booby-trapped,
> their operations were known in advance often resulting in murderous ambushes,
> they had trouble saying anything to anybody without it being recorded in triplicate,

as said earlier, states can't win but they can lose, well we managed to persuade the IRA they could not win while demonstrating that we weren't going to lose either.

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So nothing to do with the Docklands bombing and the increased targetting of the City of London, combined with the insurers saying that they would no longer pay out on damage from terrorist attacks? The UK govt didn't have all the cards as you are suggesting. They IRA had occassional access to one testicle (the City) which they could squeeze and induce a fair amount of panic.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

The saddest thing, out of a host of sad things to choose from, is how brutalized and militarized this has made both societies. Israel, as a democracy, had an opportunity to be an enlightened state. That's gone now. And the Palestinians had a chance to constructively guide their own future. Gone.

Because I need to get through my day and do constructive work, I don't let myself contemplate the Israeli-Palestinian axis of stupidity too often.

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Israeli society is pretty grim from the sounds of it. One of the highest rates of drug use in the world, sex trafficking, massive organised crime network and routine violence amongst young people.

It isn't a democracy. Any more than the deep south of the US was a democracy in the 1930s.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Israeli society is pretty grim from the sounds of it. One of the highest rates of drug use in the world, sex trafficking, massive organised crime network and routine violence amongst young people.

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How is that in any way related even when true

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict provides a nice case study as to what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

How is that in any way related even when true

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A neverending war has very, very bad effects on a society. As a fan of the film Starship Troopers, I would think you would see the connection. War makes fascists of us all.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

A neverending war has very, very bad effects on a society. As a fan of the film Starship Troopers, I would think you would see the connection. War makes fascists of us all.

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So if peace is the dream of the wise but war is the way of man shouldn't we all be facists? :grin:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

So if peace is the dream of the wise but war is the way of man shouldn't we all be facists? :grin:

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I do realize that you're being silly, but to follow your reductio ad absurdum, I think there's a reason fascism had such resonance with the populations that came under its sway. There's a simplistic, visceral appeal to a Final Solution. And yes, I think the generational war between the Palestinians and the Israelis has fatally poisoned both societies. I cannot begin to imagine how either will recover, or become decent ever again.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

A neverending war has very, very bad effects on a society. As a fan of the film Starship Troopers, I would think you would see the connection. War makes fascists of us all.

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+1 for Starship Troopers. Probably the finest satire ever made.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I do realize that you're being silly, but to follow your reductio ad absurdum, I think there's a reason fascism had such resonance with the populations that came under its sway. There's a simplistic, visceral appeal to a Final Solution. And yes, I think the generational war between the Palestinians and the Israelis has fatally poisoned both societies. I cannot begin to imagine how either will recover, or become decent ever again.

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What you, and in fairness, most people, don't realize is that it goes beyond what you mentioned: Two persecuted peoples were placed side-by-side in a region claimed by three major religions. This goes far beyond the 60 whatever years that Israel's been around. Whenever I hear fools talk about Zionists or terrorists I see it as people lining up behind their respective camps. The question is who would you rather have living next door to you not who do you feel the most sympathy for.

When was the last time Christianity claimed the region for a religious purpose?

I blame the Oslo peace accords. Should have just kept the area under Israeli control.

Israel and Palestine were separated, then Jordan annexed Palestine. They went to war with Israel, then Israel invaded and annexed the lands from Jordan. It should have just remained that way.

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Originally Posted by Husar

When was the last time Christianity claimed the region for a religious purpose?

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Claimed? Probably around the 1700's, Popes didn't realy hold much sway after the renaissance, but I dont think anyone's actually acted on the claims since the 13th century.

Arab Christians claim the region as their own, although they become progressively fewer with each passing year.

Bethlehem has the highest proportion of Palestinian Christians and the Christians make up 30% of Bethlehem's population. Then it is 3% overall in the other Palestinian territories.

The Christians and Jewish populations of Israel get on very very well. This is also reflected in the national status of being effectively 'partners' with the USA being held in Israel and the pricing of US dollars for goods.

One thing I did notice was the visual difference between the Israeli and Muslim areas. In short, the Jewish people are heavily influenced from the west, so you can imagine well kept gardens, Western architectural styles for buildings and so on. The Muslim areas are effectively a dump because they lack the western style emphasis on their creations. The exception to this rule are rich and western influenced Muslims in the area, which are unfortunately not that many.

The Palestinian areas are very much as you can guess from the above, are a dump. The cities and towns are covered in Street rats (Children begging and stealing), and there is a general disorder and breakdown of society, especially compared the Israeli areas which are very ordered (more so than Britain).

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Originally Posted by Idaho

So nothing to do with the Docklands bombing and the increased targetting of the City of London, combined with the insurers saying that they would no longer pay out on damage from terrorist attacks? The UK govt didn't have all the cards as you are suggesting. They IRA had occassional access to one testicle (the City) which they could squeeze and induce a fair amount of panic.

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I agree with this

The spectaculars in London hurried along a process London had being denying for years, plus the improved relations between Dublin and London after Maggie left helped an awful lot.

Also Adams and co were years trying to get there membership to back a more political slant, they saw the benefit from the hunger strikes when they elected people to London and Dublin on the back of it.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

The Palestinian areas are very much as you can guess from the above, are a dump. The cities and towns are covered in Street rats (Children begging and stealing), and there is a general disorder and breakdown of society, especially compared the Israeli areas which are very ordered (more so than Britain).

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When you and yours are given the same consideration people give to rats, and when you and yours are killed off like rats, and when great powers conspire to have you and yours eternally looked upon as rats, it is conceivable that you and yours may eventually behave like rats.

The downfall of the Palestinian people is all going according to the plans of external forces.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

...The downfall of the Palestinian people is all going according to the plans of external forces.

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You have a far greater belief in the efficiency of government then I ever will.

There was no coherent plan behind the formation of Israel, and any plans since have been haphazard and reactive -- with unintended consequences largely ignored. It has taken on a life of its own -- a poisonous existence as our Lemur notes -- that is in no way truly controlled by the participants much less those watching horrified from the sidelines.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

You have a far greater belief in the efficiency of government then I ever will.

There was no coherent plan behind the formation of Israel, and any plans since have been haphazard and reactive -- with unintended consequences largely ignored. It has taken on a life of its own -- a poisonous existence as our Lemur notes -- that is in no way truly controlled by the participants much less those watching horrified from the sidelines.

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It's called a conspiracy theory. I'd even place people like Noam Chumpsky (reference to another thread in this category) into this category. The mind likes to fill in our gaps of knowledge with unrealistic scenarios. Idealists have the same problem. Incompetence and self-interest are more responsible than any organized plan. They are also our two greatest allies in combating terrorism.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

You have a far greater belief in the efficiency of government then I ever will.

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Governments are highly efficient when it counts. They have the guns, the money, the law, the information gathering assets, and retain a monopoly on the use of force. They also have, when required - usually to maintain their own interest - a highly concentrated sense of purpose.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

There was no coherent plan behind the formation of Israel, . . .

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You think it was done on a whim?

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When was the last time Christianity claimed the region for a religious purpose?

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South Vietnam, right before the war.

South Korea. Right now.

Sounds like Christianity has something with the south.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

It's called a conspiracy theory. I'd even place people like Noam Chumpsky (reference to another thread in this category) into this category. The mind likes to fill in our gaps of knowledge with unrealistic scenarios. Idealists have the same problem. Incompetence and self-interest are more responsible than any organized plan. They are also our two greatest allies in combating terrorism.

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There is nothing unrealistic or conspiritorial required to explain the decades of inhuman brutality the Palestinians have suffered at the hands of the Israelis.

It's simple brutality and inhumanity. No black helicopter theories required. It's just plain murder.