Considering Ptolomai campaign at some point

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

We'll do! Thanks!

So I started a Baktria campaign. Took a look around the map, and any neutral cities around just seemed way too heavily-garrisoned and too far away to go that route. So I split my starting army up into two groups. Sent one north and took two Selucid cities there (the ones that look like Saka tribal cities) and one south and took about 3 Selucid cities all in a line.

That's about all I've done so far. Am I doing this right?

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No. The Saka will attack you.
But you can still win the campaign. Just make sure to garrison your two northern cities with some archers and/or slingers and spearmen (preferrably Parthian Spearmen). Persian Archers, Persian Archer-Spearmen, Eastern Slingers or Hellenic Slingers are good, but don't use Toxotai. They look nice but are almost useless against the Saka.
Also try to build stone walls in your frontier cities, to provide better platforms for your missile troops.

It was a good idea though to send the other army south. You should be able to defeat the Seleukids there, moreso if you can keep your alliance with Parthia.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Ptolemaioi recruitment options in India are not nearly as good as those of the AS, Saka, Baktria, Pahlava, or Saba, though.

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I don't think India is part of the Ptolemy victory conditions, though, so I guess Ptolemies don't really need good recruitment there. There's always mercs.

For baktria:

North - dangerous
East - Ideal
South - good
West - DO NOT GO WEST!

at least not at first, or if you cant resist, you will have to whipe out the Pajama Pahlavi quick but they generally dislike you, when you take antiochia margiane, or however that temptingly close settlement to the west is called. War with the Seleucids comes either way, the saka are a very likely enemy but the Pahlava are not likely to attack you if you leave your hands of that city. Afterall that would rob you of all the fun you'd have fighting them Cataphract vs Cataphract^^

I did this before as AS when I took Egypt so I think the same would work for Ptollies. Leave Cyrene rebel and instead build a few forts in the gaps between mountains and the sea around the city so that Carthage can't fit any armies in that way. They won't attack you since you don't share a border and instead will stand there and eventually wander off. It will cost about 1500 a turn in Pantodapoi or Akontistai upkeep, something you may come close to recouping through trade with Carthage's cities themselves. It also allows you to focus solely in one direction; for my AS empire that was into Greece, for the Ptollies that would be against the AS.

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Originally Posted by Sapper

Looks good to me. Baktria is one of those factions where attacking the rebels first is not optimal. You are always going to get into a war with AS so do it on your terms. My advice is to make Baktra as strong as you can, the AS will attack it at every oportunity, build mines as soon as you can too, and Kophen should be the first rebel city you take for just that purpose, and get into India because its rich. Also, plan to be fighting the AS for ever because without resorting to forced diplomacy you are doomed to do so.

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By the way, Sapper, thanks for those words on the Ptolemai campaign. Will definitely give them a whirl too.

I always plan on fighting the AS forever anytime I'm anywhere near them. That never changes. Also, I never use forced diplomacy because I don't even have the mod which allows that.

with the baktrians i use the clam aproach i take marakanda and gava haomavarga with proper usage of the lower level phalangitai and then go for kophen the saka are hard to kill but they are diplomatically weaklings so you can normally get peace and a few setlements aslong as you´re not at war with anyone else (i got sulek like that and was able to break their nomadic alliance no allies and having to fight you while they´re your only enemy turns them into pushovers) ofc once you go to war with the seulekids you´re screwed everyone will turn on you i normally do an anphibean attack land around charax and go for babylonia seulekeia and antiocheia once those mics are destroyed and those cities sacked and with every single last building destroying the seulekids can no longer send at you their elites and you get the money needed for the mine upgrades

So I started up a Selucid campaign just so I can get a look at the start position. I must say I'm not used to running such a huge empire right at the start - my previous campaigns include such massive starting empires as Casse and Koinon Hellenon!

At any rate, hypothetically-speaking, were I to take the "advice" (cough) of some and contemplate starting up such a campaign as the evil Arche Selukids (NOT SAYING I WOULD!), could you throw me some opening moves or strats (cover several), some things to watch out for, some pitfalls, some inevitable things that are gonna happen, etc? My guess is, blitz someone if possible (Pahlva, Pontos, etc), or pull back to a defensive position?

Just off the top of my head, it looks like those 2 small towns bordering the Saka are gonna be toast sooner rather than later. For me, were I to make an opening move now (NOT SAYING I WILL!) I'd probably pull all the garrison troops, destroy whatever buildings I could, raise taxes to 100%, and watch the fireworks from afar. Comments? What say you?

Next thing I'm noticing is the Pahlva breathing down my neck at the city bordering his lands. Don't know if it's possible to scrape together enough forces from the hinterlands to send over there in time or not. My first guess is pull most of the garisson, leaving 1 cheap unit there, and see what could arrive from other cities within the next several turns? What say you?

I guess the 3rd and 4th things to deal with in the open would be Pontos and Egypt. Don't really have many ideas there except "send troops from within to those borders."

Unlike some campaigns, looks like this one could be one starting out as "pull back, lick your wounds, shore up some defenses, and proceed from there?" Retrenchment!

Your thoughts?

As far as I know Pulling back and regrouping is one of the most popular and probably most effective start for the AS, some people prefer to use the troops there to whipe out Pahlava or hold out but I think letting them go does not hurt toomuch afterall all your usefull provinces lie westwards of Persepolis. Some people even abandon everything but mesopotamia^^.
(as you already noticed) With the AS you start as the big bully who everyone (but macedon) hates you have the strongest troops and the biggest territory to start with.

My two tips for starting an AS campaign are:

Turn 1. Move your archer unit out of Asaak and attack the nearby Pahlavan army. Either fight this hopeless battle or withdraw immediately. Because you attack first, proving your determination to fight, this allows you to keep Bactria, Pontos and Hayasdan as your allies instead of them all deserting you when Pahlava attacks you first at the end of the first turn. Also, recruit a diplomat in Antiochia-Margiane.

Turn 2. Destroy all buildings in Marakanda and Alexandria-Eschate and pull out the garrisons. Move the new diplomat to Bactra and give the rebellious, worthless towns to your Bactrian allies. (You may need to use Force Diplomacy to get them to accept.) Now defending those towns from the Saka juggernaut is Bactria's problem, not yours - and you can make peace with the Saka since you don't have a border with them anymore. And this will keep Bactria occupied too.

What's the benefit of being allied with someone? They don't go to war with you, which would be the obvious perk. I know you can fight battles together, but that's extremely rare situation. I assume you get some relations bonus, but does someone know the exact benefits of alliance status?

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Originally Posted by Stark

What's the benefit of being allied with someone? They don't go to war with you, which would be the obvious perk. I know you can fight battles together, but that's extremely rare situation. I assume you get some relations bonus, but does someone know the exact benefits of alliance status?

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Military access, allowing you to move armies through their territory without them getting upset, seems to me to be the main benefit of having allies.

i think you start off with military access to pontus bactria and parthia but if you break alliance with them it is almost impossible to get access back even if you ally with them again. i dont see why you would need military access tho, has anyone here found it useful? i imagine there would be some trade bonuses if you border them? but im just guessing

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

Turn 2. Destroy all buildings in Marakanda and Alexandria-Eschate and pull out the garrisons. Move the new diplomat to Bactra and give the rebellious, worthless towns to your Bactrian allies. (You may need to use Force Diplomacy to get them to accept.) Now defending those towns from the Saka juggernaut is Bactria's problem, not yours - and you can make peace with the Saka since you don't have a border with them anymore. And this will keep Bactria occupied too.

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Better idea yet - leave those garrisons where they are and offer the settlements to Baktria as a gift, along with a small sum of money or map information. For some reason, the AI only accepts this if the garrison is in place and not roaming around the province. If Baktria accepts, your garrisons will pull out automatically.

So I gamed this out a bit just to see what was possible. My objective this test session was to simply see if I could shore up my borders without a fight. Of course Pahlva attacks you at Asaak the first round. How to avoid this? By giving it away, but how? Your only diplomat must get to another faction before this round is over, and the only faction in range is... the Ptolomies! So I went to him and asked him to take it. He refused, so I asked him again, also offering 3000 credits (all I had) plus map. He took it, LOL.

After giving Marakanda and Alexandria-Eschate to Bactria the next round as suggested above, that almost shored me up completely. Unfortunately, within a round or two Pahlva attacked a guy I had standing outside Antiocheia-Margaine and another guy I had at the border of Zadrakata. This tells me that I need to attempt giving away those cities to Bactria as well, and see what happens.

I'll game it out later and report back, unless someone here already knows what happens.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Better idea yet - leave those garrisons where they are and offer the settlements to Baktria as a gift, along with a small sum of money or map information. For some reason, the AI only accepts this if the garrison is in place and not roaming around the province. If Baktria accepts, your garrisons will pull out automatically.

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Now this is very interesting. As someone who does not use Forced diplomacy I always offer money along with a settlement as a gift. No chance of the AI accepting without the money it appears. But I had not considered that the garrison would also have an effect. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

the AI only accepts this if the garrison is in place and not roaming around the province. If Baktria accepts, your garrisons will pull out automatically.

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Ahhhh. Learn something new every day.

Are jew spearmen any good? Are they similar to those spearmen that can throw javelins that the hellenic powers can recruit, or are they something different? Since they have around the same cost as a levy pike, I just jeep recruiting levy pikes, but I'd like to know.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

Are jew spearmen any good? Are they similar to those spearmen that can throw javelins that the hellenic powers can recruit, or are they something different? Since they have around the same cost as a levy pike, I just jeep recruiting levy pikes, but I'd like to know.

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They are a decent unit. They are indeed spearmen who also have javelins and being cheaper and more numerous (I'm not sure about this; I'm answering from memory) they can be a budget alternative to Thureophoroi or Thorakitai. Compared to levy pikes they are less suited for the centre of the line, but more versatile and still able to hold their ground well.

more vulnerable to missiles but better morale than thureos

Definitely one of my favourite units in the area.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

Are jew spearmen any good? Are they similar to those spearmen that can throw javelins that the hellenic powers can recruit, or are they something different? Since they have around the same cost as a levy pike, I just jeep recruiting levy pikes, but I'd like to know.

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Ioudaioi Taxeis, aka Jewish Spearmen, are an excellent unit to recruit in the Levant. They are indeed similar to Thureophoroi and Thorakitai (those spearmen that can throw javelins that the hellenic powers can recruit) having javelins and a spear but they also have a few differences. Their cost lies between the two Hellenic troop types, as does their morale. They have the same number of javelins, 3, but they are slightly weaker, 5 as against 6 attack, but longer range, 45 as against 35. They have the same melee attack and charge bonus as Thureophoroi and are therefore a bit weaker than Thorakitai. Their defence is weaker than Thureophoroi, but is the same as Peltastai, who of course have swords and not spears as their secondary weapon. But there are two areas where they really score: they only require a level 2 Native MIC to recruit, as opposed to level 3 or 4 for T & T, plus you get more men, 200 on huge as opposed to 160 for T & T, or P! You can recruit them in Sidon, Heirosolyma, Antiocheia, Damaskos and Petra and in my view, you should! The AI tends to like them too.