Teacher get's death threats and racist hate mail for banning God Bless America.

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Originally Posted by rajpoot

What if, say, 20 out of 25 kids want to sing a patriotic song in your classroom. (Or say their parents want them to sing it...?)

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Who cares? It has no relevance to the subject of the class, and as such has no place there. If 20 out of 25 wants to play on their cell phones instead of following the class, I won't let them to that either.

As for politics staying out of the classrooms, that is of course nonsense. Knowledge of the different political views is of course a vital part of education.

If you as a parent feel that pride in your country is a valuable lesson for your kid, rajpoot, then I suggest you as a parent teach them that. That's your job, not mine. My job is to make them aware that other people might see things differently.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Who cares? It has no relevance to the subject of the class, and as such has no place there. If 20 out of 25 wants to play on their cell phones instead of following the class, I won't let them to that either.

As for politics staying out of the classrooms, that is of course nonsense. Knowledge of the different political views is of course a vital part of education.

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No, as teachers lack the self-restraint to impose their own. And you wouldn't believe what you will find in some of our schoolbooks it is pure propaganda. They feel they have the right to indoctrinate kids with leftist nonsense because they are on the good side of the argument in their opinion, so just leave it out completely. Much better.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

If you as a parent feel that pride in your country is a valuable lesson for your kid, rajpoot, then I suggest you as a parent teach them that. That's your job, not mine. My job is to make them aware that other people might see things differently.

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Now that's a matter of opinion isn't it.....I mean as a teacher you feel that you should be neutral in these things. I'm pretty sure there are other teachers out there who feel it is their duty to instill national pride in their pupils.....

I guess this depends on where a person lives.....over here for instance, still many people are illiterate. National pride is probably one of the last things they'll teach their kids. So I feel it is vital that schools step in. Or at least don't start banning patriotic songs.

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Originally Posted by rajpoot

Now that's a matter of opinion isn't it.....I mean as a teacher you feel that you should be neutral in these things. I'm pretty sure there are other teachers out there who feel it is their duty to instill national pride in their pupils.....

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In that case, they haven't read their job description.

My job is not to promote any values, and so I don't promote any values. The human rights charter clearly shows that this is the responsibility of the parents, not the state.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

In that case, they haven't read their job description.

My job is not to promote any values, and so I don't promote any values. The human rights charter clearly shows that this is the responsibility of the parents, not the state.

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Human rights charter is also nothing more then an opinion of what human-rights are. Tell me, what are you teaching about the things that make the right really really sad. On immigration, europe, and islam specifically. You solved the entire issue of honour-killings within muslim families by finding out that it also happens in rural India after all, are you sure you are objective.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Human rights charter is also nothing more then an opinion of what human-rights are. Tell me, what are you teaching about the things that make the right really really sad. On immigration, europe, and islam specifically. You solved the entire issue of honour-killings within muslim families by finding out that it also happens in rural India after all, are you sure you are objective.

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I don't conclude anything. The standard procedure is "student makes a statement - I give a counter statement".

Ie.
Students say immigration enriches our culture. I respond by asking "what about those who do not want our culture to change", or something like that.

Coming up with counters to a leftist argument is absolutely no problem. Same with right-wing arguments. What is difficult is coming up with a proper response to a moderate, centrist statement.

As for grading, I grade based on how their arguments are built, not what they conclude with(I honestly don't care about the conclusion, other than it having a logical connection to the arguments used).

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Students say immigration enriches our culture. I respond by asking "what about those who do not want our culture to change", or something like that.

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Who put it in their head that immigration is an enrichment for starters, and you are already presenting a change to culture as a given that some oppose to. I am sure you are trying but I think it's better if you don't try anything at all here. Just teach maths you are good at that.

Wow I never realized God Bless the USA was such a cultural-reinforcing song that prmoted values, etc. I just thought it was a catchy, patriotic tune that a lot of kids, including me, sang at their grade school graduations and 4th of july ceremonies etc. As I recall, my class even voted on the songs top sing

We picked God Bless the USA
And also We Are The World.
And Also Greatest Love of All.

I wish our principle had banned the last two

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Wow I never realized God Bless the USA was such a cultural-reinforcing song that prmoted values, etc. I just thought it was a catchy, patriotic tune that a lot of kids, including me, sang at their grade school graduations and 4th of july ceremonies etc. As I recall, my class even voted on the songs top sing

We picked God Bless the USA
And also We Are The World.
And Also Greatest Love of All.

I wish our principle had banned the last two

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Keep in mind that most of us here are Europeans, what is perfectly innocent for you is rather creepy for us. We are not the same continent we have a different history.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

That argument only holds true if the school only teach the kids to read, write and calculate.

But now we have things like history and social science. Those are topics impossible to keep neutral, and thus I prefer if the state is the one swaying the neutrality, not the individual teachers.

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This, I think, is key.

Even reading is a cultural activity, hell the habit of reading is cultural, not all cultures do it.

In the case of children who are first and second generation immigrants it most definately is the responsibility of the school to educate the children about the host country.

The idea that schools have no "moral" dimension is also troubling, because without that element you have no hope of enforcing dicipline (as seen in British schools currently).

To condense that - moral and cultural relevatism are moral and cultural viewpoints, adhering to them is no better than adhering to Christian moralism or "traditional" culture.

God Bless America, in theory, could stimulate a reaction in people. I doubt at a school full of immigrants who love cheeseburgers and pizza....

However, Justin Beiber is an affront to all. No talent ass clown

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Who put it in their head that immigration is an enrichment for starters, and you are already presenting a change to culture as a given that some oppose to. I am sure you are trying but I think it's better if you don't try anything at all here. Just teach maths you are good at that.

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Who put it in their head? You are unable to realize that a substantial ammount of people can come to that conclusion on their own, without anyone oushing the idea?

I don't really take criticism in this field seriously from people with views like yours, frags.

All right, say moderation and neutrality are the correct way to go for schools. The correct way to teach kids.
The bottom line is, that somewhere else in the world there are people who aren't so moderate. And they do everything they can to make their kids unreasonable bigots. I do not support such people. They need to be stopped.
But would you rather see your kids be disillusioned about their country at a tender age or would you rather want them to grow up being happy about where they were born, and then once they are old enough, decide what is wrong and what is right?
In my opinion, children going to kindergarten do not need to learn about every single mistake their country has made. They need to feel good about their home, their city and their country.
If you stop them from singing a patriotic song, I don't think many of them will understand that it was done so as not to offend immigrants. Chances are they will feel resentful towards those immigrant kids because they were the reason they could not sing a nice song......
Moderation is the key no doubt, but it should be moderate moderation.
And in the end, no matter how moderate one wants to be, no matter what the issue, eventually, one needs to get off the fence.

@HoreTore
When you tell someone about an event from one perspective and leave the job of explaining the other side for someone else, it's not being neutral.

Uhm, what? I aim to present as many viewpoints("sides") as possible on each subject.

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If you as a parent feel that pride in your country is a valuable lesson for your kid, rajpoot, then I suggest you as a parent teach them that. That's your job, not mine. My job is to make them aware that other people might see things differently.

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If you tell them about how other people who do not like their country see it, then you must tell them about how people who do like it see it.

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Originally Posted by rajpoot

If you tell them about how other people who do not like their country see it, then you must tell them about how people who do like it see it.

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Yes? That's what I do(though the example is a little off).

I think people overestimate the value of propaganda in school. I recited the Pledge of Allegiance every day, and it did not turn me into a screaming, mindless, my-country-can-do-no-wrong kinda citizen.

And agreement with many posters that parenting is far more impactful and important than what you sing in school.

All that said, sure sounds like the teacher is not the sharpest pencil in the box.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

This topic is very hot in Sweden, where principals are banning anything from psalms to the national anthem because our dear MENA citizens might get upset.

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Sweden is so multiculti/cultural marxist it isn't even funny anymore. I know, biased source, but too lazy too look further, but check out what their Green Party is doing over there.

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The Swedish Green Party state explicitly that the concepts male and female are "socially constructed" and forced upon all human beings.

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Yea that whole genitilia thing is just like your opinion man.

Second wave feminism is terrible. Anyone born between 1945-65 should be taken out back and shot. You people screwed up so bad, I didn't even realize it was possible to screw up this bad.

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Originally Posted by Skullhead

Sweden is so multiculti/cultural marxist it isn't even funny anymore. I know, biased source, but too lazy too look further, but check out what their Green Party is doing over there.

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Starting to get the idea, the left is insane

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Originally Posted by Skullhead

Sweden is so multiculti/cultural marxist it isn't even funny anymore. I know, biased source, but too lazy too look further, but check out what their Green Party is doing over there.

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You don't need to look further, that source got it about right.

I wouldn't be surprised if we soon have banned Swedish for Arabic, and have laws dictating men must smack their own balls every morning and think of the historical errors towards women.

I exaggerate a little, but not as much as most people would think.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I think people overestimate the value of propaganda in school. I recited the Pledge of Allegiance every day, and it did not turn me into a screaming, mindless, my-country-can-do-no-wrong kinda citizen.

And agreement with many posters that parenting is far more impactful and important than what you sing in school.

All that said, sure sounds like the teacher is not the sharpest pencil in the box.

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My fear is that I will influence one of my students to think as I do. That's the last thing I want. I get stressed whenever some other teacher puts a value which I hold myself in a positive light, and NEVER do it myself.

Kids should learn about different values at school. Which ones they find meaningful should be up to themselves(and their parents), and the school should never promote anything.

With one MAJOR exception:
I am the King, despot and ruthless dictator of my classroom. In order for me to do my job, I need to create the classroom enviroment needed for students to learn what I intend them to. As such, they will have to follow certain values etc when in the classroom. For example, you can have the opinion that people who in your opinion says dumb stuff should be silent, and that its perfectly acceptable for you to interrupt when someone says something you disagree with. Go nuts with it. But when you're in my class, and we have a discussion in class, there will be no interrupting others.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Yea that whole genitilia thing is just like your opinion man.

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You should know better than to rely on fascist sources, SFTS.

What the greens mean, is that gender roles are largely social constructs. They also hold the opinion that enviromental and structural forces play a bigger part in determining who you are than "free will".

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

You don't need to look further, that source got it about right.

I wouldn't be surprised if we soon have banned Swedish for Arabic, and have laws dictating men must smack their own balls every morning and think of the historical errors towards women.

I exaggerate a little, but not as much as most people would think.

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Getting a little bit creepy huh, but that is just a bit of a populist thing to say. Sweden..

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

that gender roles are largely social constructs.

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Some people actually believe this :shame:

I assume that by "gender roles" they mean A) daddy brings home the bacon B) mommy does the laundry and takes care of the kids. And if that's what they mean (that they're social constructs), then I agree :shrug:

Stieg Larsson got his title right; Men who hate women. Sums up the far-right perfectly.

A strong, independent woman who makes her own decisions on how to live her life is a nightmare for fascists.

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Some people actually believe this

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Hey guess what, cool teenager rebel dude, going against your parents, the establishment and not trusting anyone over thirty. I know you think you're being totally on edge right now which is really cool, but seriously, it's like some of these truths we cling onto dearly are actually true. We ain't doing it to upset you, because I can understand your parents totally suck and have no idea what it's like to be your age, but we ain't gonna let go of equal rights simply because you think it's part of the establishment. Sucks, right?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Stieg Larsson got his title right; Men who hate women. Sums up the far-right perfectly.

A strong, independent woman who makes her own decisions on how to live her life is a nightmare for fascists.

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You know his history?

Edit heck what good is that, Stieg Larsson is the actual founder of the viking's nazi party, didn't you know that

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Originally Posted by Fragony

You know his history?

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About the only thing I know about Stieg Larsson is that he made a cracking title for one of his books.