Detroit

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Wait, so Jew-hating means socialism? Man, I can't keep up with the latest wingnut re-definitions of language.

Maybe it would be simpler if we could get a list of what isn't socialism.

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Try.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

And we'll all need unions, both employers and employees, as long as we negotiate our wages every year. Which means forever.

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Unions have the same problem that guilds did centuries ago. They've become too big, too self-important, too focused on their expansion and collection of dues. Members are nothing more than meal tickets to them, and union bosses are no better than the corporate execs.

Ford had his good and bad side.

To say that he was "anti union" is a bit of an understatement. The dude had the largest civilian security force in the history of the USA up until he was surpassed by modern contractors like BH and KBR. Those "security personnel" travelled the land and broke the spirit and the bodies of people, their forces comprised of big, dumb goons like former athletes, soldiers and criminals/ex cons.

Old man Ford would not fire their ringleader, Harry Bennet, who stayed with the company until Old Ford stepped down after replacing Edsel after his death. At this point Old Ford was senile and wanted to make Bennett the new President in place of Edsel, and Old Ford took over as interim in the meantime. The company was doing so poorly under senile Ford(even as a war supplier, losing money hand over fist) there was talk of government takeover in the financial sector so as not to disrupt supply lines. The board fo directors and Edsels widow successfully pushed for Henry II, edsels son, to be put in as President once he returned from the fighting.

His first act as new president was to fire Bennett and most of his goons. Bennett, an ungrateful draft dodger whose biggest claim to fame was having big biceps and being a hard puncher, engaged in a smear campaign against a recently returned US Navy combat vet, accusing him of not having any real world experience and having never contributed to the company. He quickly faded into history, the murderous goon that he was.

I can only imagine what Ford would have become had Bennett taken over. Also of note, Bennett apparently caused Edsel a lot of headache, but his father would not let him fire Bennet, and upon Edsels death his widow claimed that it was the stress brought on by Bennett and his merciless goons that led to Edsels demise (he dies of cancer)

Thats your history lesson for today, kids

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Originally Posted by Haudegen

Hmm, wikipedia says on Fordism that his idea (and his payment-policy) was mainly that he wanted his workers as consumers, i.e. he wanted them to have enough money to be able to afford his cars.

Nothing wrong with that so far. But IMHO this works only as long as you´re focusing mainly on selling things in your own town. If your business grows to a point where you have to sell your goods in completely different regions or continents, the whole idea won´t work anymore.

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That and cars are a direct consumer item. Paying workers higher for the production of Steel and Oil wouldn't have benefitted Carnegie and Rockefeller in the same way as it did for Ford.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

History fail. Ford ran as a "Peace Candidate" in 1918, and was strongly in favor of the League of Nations. So clearly he was a peacenik and a one-world government Freemason.

I don't think modern American right-wingers have any notion of how extreme they've become. Nixon passed Title 9 and founded the EPA, Reagan raised taxes and gave amnesty to millions of illegals, Teddy Rosevelt broke up corporations, etcetera. All of the heroes of the past would have be considered RINOs today. In fact, measured against President Obama's rather tepid response to the financial industry's riot of corruption, they would be considered socialists.

And don't get me started on Jesus of Nazareth, who gave out free healthcare and wouldn't shut the hell up about poor people. You would have hated him.

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I also have a feeling that Democrats of yesteryear would also be DINOs for not doing anything about the repression of LGBT people.

You move the tax base and you neglect the city proper.

White flight is not about race. It's about the complete breakdown of community in Americas urban areas. Sure allot of the victims are black but that is just happenstance.

I can expand on this, but most of you are idiots

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

You move the tax base and you neglect the city proper.

White flight is not about race. It's about the complete breakdown of community in Americas urban areas. Sure allot of the victims are black but that is just happenstance.

I can expand on this, but most of you are idiots

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Honest question, how was the breakdown of community not related to, or caused by, racial tensions?

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Honest question, how was the breakdown of community not related to, or caused by, racial tensions?

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Dude, I am 8 shades of drunk right now. Can I give you a reading list?

In America it is colored by race, no doubt. But racial tensions are merley a symptom. Using the "other" is a convient excuse to move the tax base and stifle social mobility

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Dude, I am 8 shades of drunk right now. Can I give you a reading list?

In America it is colored by race, no doubt. But racial tensions are merley a symptom. Using the "other" is a convient excuse to move the tax base and stifle social mobility

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Kk, I will start googling some info on my own. Continue drinking.

You have no idea what you are googiling

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defc...colorline.html

How The Irish Became White Noel Ignatiev
White Flight: Atlanta and the making of Modern Conservatism Kevin Kruze
Playing Indian Tom Deloria

All of these should be read with Hegel in mind

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

You have no idea what you are googiling

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defc...colorline.html

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Well, I mean, I do have People's History on my bookshelf. But thank you for helping me find the relevant section in this 600+ page book (I don't think I even finished it).

I added more

These are just to help you think about why there is a divide and how that divide shapes out looks on governance.

A people history should be requried reading in all high schools, it was in mine.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Unions have the same problem that guilds did centuries ago. They've become too big, too self-important, too focused on their expansion and collection of dues. Members are nothing more than meal tickets to them, and union bosses are no better than the corporate execs.

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I have never been to the US, so I can't comment on the situation there, but that description of unions is about as far from the situation here as one can get.

So, obviously, the solution to the union problems in the US is to become a social democracy and ditch the ideologically blinded libertardians.

Edit: also, one more comment on the right/left-divide... If the difference is that the left wants the state to fix it, and the right wants individuals to fix it, you have just claimed that communism is a right-wing ideology....

unfortunately rvg's statement is pretty much true here as well... at least with the bigger unions

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Honest question, how was the breakdown of community not related to, or caused by, racial tensions

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Dude. Wake up. Your neighborhood goes to ****. You are going to leave the first chyance you get. It doesn't matter who the criminals are, it doesn't matter why the property values are low, it doesn't matter why your insurance is higher to run a business. It is what it is. You are going to leave.

And for that, apparently, you are a racist.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I have never been to the US, so I can't comment on the situation there, but that description of unions is about as far from the situation here as one can get.

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Must be nice. Aside from the "take everything you can get NOW" mentality, do a google of "mob ties to unions" for a laugh. The public image of unions in the US is low for a reason.

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Originally Posted by drone

Must be nice. Aside from the "take everything you can get NOW" mentality, do a google of "mob ties to unions" for a laugh. The public image of unions in the US is low for a reason.

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...and that is a problem with the free market society, it has nothing to do with unions. That attitude is of course the attitude all of your CEO's have as well - are they behaving like that because of the unions? Will a CEO fire a divison or two so the stock price will rise enough unlock his bonus because his workers are unionized? And the mob has ties to all levels of the society the operate in, of course they have ties to unions as well if they operate in the same area.

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

unfortunately rvg's statement is pretty much true here as well... at least with the bigger unions

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Funny that the two countries with the most advanced state of free market-thinking, the US and UK, has the most problems with unions...

Why is it that you guys have a problem that the social democracies in europe doesn't have?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Funny that the two countries with the most advanced state of free market-thinking, the US and UK, has the most problems with unions...

Why is it that you guys have a problem that the social democracies in europe doesn't have?

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Because Americans are entitled buttholes

I once dated a girl in a union. She demanded a 10 minute break during sex, and she was impossible to break up with.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Funny that the two countries with the most advanced state of free market-thinking, the US and UK, has the most problems with unions...

Why is it that you guys have a problem that the social democracies in europe doesn't have?

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Italy, Greece also manage to have lots of problems.

Your choice appears more determined by countries that do things the "wrong" way.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Italy, Greece also manage to have lots of problems.

Your choice appears more determined by countries that do things the "wrong" way.

~:smoking:

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Did you misinterpret my post, or are you seriously suggesting that the main cause of the problems in Italy and Greece is their unions...?

no he was pointing out that "Why is it that you guys have a problem that the social democracies in europe doesn't have?" isn't very accurate - there a plenitude of countries in Europe who have problems with Unions ranging from France to the UK

I recall reading somehwere several years ago that the majority of GMs pension healthcare funds went to pay for retirees. Pensions are practically not even an option any more these days outside of government jobs, and this is a prime example of why. The unions managed to get fabulous benefits packages for the employees at a level that was quite frankly unsustainable and -- dare I say it -- idiotic, as a company in a "capitalist" society, whose financial security will be at the whims of the market.

And the paperwork is in, Detroit officially files for bankruptcy.

Creditors and pension plans unwilling to take 10 cents on the dollar will now get next to nothing. And this might start a wave with other cities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqGk8B9NnXY

$15 billion in debt. How do they expect to pay for any future service except in cold hard cash?

I assume the city pensions are all the civil servants ie firemen, police, teachers, nurses, garbage collectors, I wonder it the senior management and city accountants and lawyers belong to the same pension funds...

It is rather odd that the unions get all the blame.
The big3 spent better than 20 years making crap no one wanted...it was crap.
So what about the failure of the captains of industry? What about the execs cruising to retirement and gold-plated pensions?
Even if the unions had played along, it would not have changed the fact the big3 were producing garbage, which they foisted on consumers-relying on rep and brand loyalty.
A pox on both their houses :p

In ten to twenty years when everything is sold off or what it is that financial people do with broken cities, I will take advantage and buy a three story Victorian house for $120,000.

I wouldn't worry about this. Pretty soon Omni Consumer Products should bail out the city. Shortly after, we can expect Robocop to be keeping the streets of Old Detroit safe while they construct Delta City.

I've always had a soft spot for ED-209.

Warning: clip contains outrageous, over-the-top gore.

http://youtu.be/fDmcX4VWxmc

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I've always had a soft spot for ED-209.

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I don't know any reasonable American citizen that wouldn't condone the use of ED-209 on most politicians.

Detroit is one of the main reasons that I am horrified of the Democratic party. Honestly, I don't believe that charity has much of a place in government unless it serves a larger social function. However, It seems that too many Conservatives internalize their laissez faire attitude beyond the political application and harden their hearts. It is tempting to do an hard to resist, but it is thoroughly corrupt and inarguably un-Christian. Personally, I don't have much patience for American poor, too often their plight is a result of carelessness, obsession with vice and trivialties, and self-deceit. I focus more of my energies toward the global poor who actually NEED us to help break their Master's backs and show them a new way.

Anyway, I don't hold American poor in contempt and man in need is still a man. poison
of character is a frustrating thing to fight, but these people have a different master keeping them down; themselves. They still need our help, especially when other Americans are all too happy to exploit them endlessly and keep the vicious cycle on repeat