Ukraine-in-a-thread

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Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral

This text went viral in Ukraine in its Russian/Ukrainian version and sums up the majority of protestors' motivation, as far as I am informed through media as well as personal contacts.

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That text is typical propaganda piece trying to portray "Russia or EU" choice, which is the crux, as "mafia or democracy/freedom" choice. Unfortunately, pro-EU current in Ukraine is just as corrupt as pro-Russian is.

The naivety is also amusing. I like how the writer said:

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For us, the agreement with the EU was a sign of change of the criminal system

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It doesn't work that way. No one is going to do your work for you. You have to deal with it. Ask your Bulgarian neighbours. They still have rampant corruption even though they've been EU members for 7 years.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Ukraine is a deeply divided nation in every sense of the word. One part wants stronger ties with Russia, the other stronger ties with EU/West.

It's gonna end badly either way, especially as the politicians on both sides are professional cleptocrats when it comes to domestic policies.

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Sounds rather like the USA with more openness.

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Originally Posted by Myth

IMO nation states and the sense of belonging to a nation, country and culture are vital for human kind and should not be discarded because of artificially created disasters.

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But the nation-state, country, etc are indeed artificially created disasters in themselves...

So you are saying "No eggs in my omelette!" but you cannot make an omelette without having eggs. No eggs means no omelette.

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No eggs means no omelette.

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:mellow:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://youtu.be/6lLcUxhnA9Y?t=2m53s

I've seen ballista's being build and testudo formations. Are we sure we're correctly translating all this. It almost looks like re-enactment.
Either way it seems the Ukrainian education hasn't failed when it comes to classical history.:rtwyes:

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Originally Posted by Moros

I've seen ballista's being build and testudo formations. Are we sure we're correctly translating all this. It almost looks like re-enactment.
Either way it seems the Ukrainian education hasn't failed when it comes to classical history.:rtwyes:

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It's probably what they consider nonviolent clashes in Ukraine.

Sarmatian is right. The coming of the EU SHOULD have fixed things, but it didn't.

Bulgaria was ruined with a masterfully executed plan. The same communists from the ruling party divided the spoils right before toppling the regime from under Zhivkov's feet. They did a coup with the blessings of Moscow and then got to work. All the major industrial complexes were strangled - private mafia companies taking over the importation of raw materials and the selling of finished goods, essentially ensuring the factory works at a loss.

Several years later we have privatisation as one of the prerequisites for joining the EU. They sell industrial mastodonts like Neftochim Burgas (oil refinery) for a miserable $130 million to the Russian oligarchs. They sell MDK Pridop (precious metals plant) for $50 million while inside the storage facilities there was around $60 million in already smelted metals.

The prosperous factories remained private, the rest were bankrupted on purpose, the machines sold for scrap and so on. More corruption than ever, especially considering the lucrative spots on the black sea coast (tourist traps etc.) When the EU came with it's EU commission and regulation on EU funds our guys just changed the model and started figuring out how to steal EU funds. Like setting up puppet companies which "win tenders" for infrastructure, renovation and other such projects. Millions if not billions stolen. So yeah, the EU isn't a magical fairy god mother of proper morale or justice. Our justice system is so corrupt you'd have to be a moron or really really poor to be in prison.

Oh, and that's a trebuchet, not a ballista

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Originally Posted by Myth

Oh, and that's a trebuchet, not a ballista

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I've seen two catapults one looked like a ballista (of course not a real one) and one like well nothing really historical. But I'd be very surprised if they'd pull a trebuchet of. Now there might be even more and bigger ones out there, but a trebuchet that's quite a difficult one to pull of.

Check out the first video in the op. It looks like a mini trebuchet to me.

It is. I saw it too. Likely a traction trebuchet. No weights just people pulling to provide the force.

President just stepped down.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

President just stepped down.

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No, the prime minister did.

Patsy sacrificed, rats leaving the ship, or what?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

No, the prime minister did.

Patsy sacrificed, rats leaving the ship, or what?

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My bad

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

It is. I saw it too. Likely a traction trebuchet. No weights just people pulling to provide the force.

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Originally Posted by Myth

Check out the first video in the op. It looks like a mini trebuchet to me.

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Ah yes that one. Yeah didn't wanted to call it a trebuchet. You're right that it is somewhat a like to a traction trebuchet. But then again I used the term ballista for a primitive but similar looking contraption as well. So I guess you could call it a trebuchet. Anyway I've got the feeling we might not be talking about the most relevant aspects of these protests.


Also I'm quite surprised the video of the protesters taking over the ministry hasn't been posted? Or was it deemed a tad too aggressive?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhVrey_sDx8

I must say I've never seen anything like it in my short lifetime when it comes to riots.

You just don't mess with Russians/Ukrainians. :shrug:

While I may feel a little sorry for the police officers getting hit with all kinds of things and having their toys taken away, some may deserve it but they're not using any lethal force and that's commendable, especially compared to other countries with riots.
I just hope the protesters show the same restraint when the policemen give up, in the video it seems to be the case.

In the long run Ukraine is probably better off without Russia unless Russia undergoes some serious changes.

Russia will play hard ball. They didn't give in for Syria, they sure as hell ain't giving in when it comes to Ukraine.

It's not their fight though. Ukraine's choice is up to the Ukrainians, not Russia, the EU, or anyone else for that matter.

Pfft. What the masses want is up to who has manipulated them better.

Well yeah, and that's where Russia is laying out all her trump cards. The 15 billion dollar loan was a brilliant move. It didn't end the protests, but it was a stunningly powerful statement.

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Originally Posted by Myth

Pfft. What the masses want is up to who has manipulated them better.

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It is worthy to mention that they don't seem to listen to nor really stand behind any of the supposition party leaders anymore. Even Klytschko is getting less willing ears. So it seems some leaders within the protesters might soon get some spotlight. Though one can argue how organised they are. And sometimes it seems they very much are and at others it seems like non at all. Or perhaps Tymoshenko will be the one to profit. She can't do any wrong because of being locked up and most protesters seem to be pro releasing her, they even demand her release.

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Originally Posted by Moros

...Or perhaps Tymoshenko will be the one to profit. She can't do any wrong because of being locked up and most protesters seem to be pro releasing her, they even demand her release.

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Releasing her might go a long way towards defusing the situation.

there is movement in the government.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/29/wo...f=ukraine&_r=0

I heard it earlier today...

https://s21.postimg.org/xcj4dg3ev/uk...0_election.jpg


This is the problem in Ukraine. A very clear division between pro EU and pro Russian parts of the country. If the government in Kiev is toppled, the eastern regions are already saying the won't acknowledge the new government.

If the divide is as clear cut as that, splitting the country into two wouldn't be a bad option. Unfortunately, I doubt it would be as simply as that in the slightest.

Apparently the prime minister has resigned, thus engendering a complete change of government. Calls continue for the President to resign as well.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

https://s21.postimg.org/xcj4dg3ev/uk...0_election.jpg


This is the problem in Ukraine. A very clear division between pro EU and pro Russian parts of the country. If the government in Kiev is toppled, the eastern regions are already saying the won't acknowledge the new government.

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Yes but since a few day riots have spread and protesters were rather active in trying and achieving/failing in taking the local goverment buildings in many eastern provinces as well. So I'm not sure this might be the case. I think with the economical problems of late combined with frustrations of certain elements, plus a more common feeling that the president went to far with his anti protest laws, are I think more wide spread than we might reckon. However once protests are done and more longterm plans are to be made, I guess division will again be the very much the case.

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Originally Posted by Moros

Also I'm quite surprised the video of the protesters taking over the ministry hasn't been posted? Or was it deemed a tad too aggressive?

I must say I've never seen anything like it in my short lifetime when it comes to riots.

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It is not a ministry they storm, but an Oblast (=administrational district) administration building in Western Ukraine.
The level of aggressiveness is extremely high on both sides, just look up a couple of videos, e.g. from Nov. 30th (first attempted crackdown on the Maidan) or the one taking from the special police's point of view, which shows how officers are set ablaze by molotov cocktails. The Berkut units are feared for a reason, namely beating and kicking people already lying on the ground, but just recently major hooligan groups declared "to support the protests and protect them from the police".
The Video shows quite some violence, be warned
(I hope it is ok to link it, as we are in the backroom)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U5Qmv9gg8w
Video is from Dec. 1, taken at Bankova str., Kyiv.

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Originally Posted by Moros

Yes but since a few day riots have spread and protesters were rather active in trying and achieving/failing in taking the local goverment buildings in many eastern provinces as well. So I'm not sure this might be the case. I think with the economical problems of late combined with frustrations of certain elements, plus a more common feeling that the president went to far with his anti protest laws, are I think more wide spread than we might reckon. However once protests are done and more longterm plans are to be made, I guess division will again be the very much the case.

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I definitely agree with this. One also has to noticed, that the attacks on local administration buildings actually STRENGTHENED support for Yanukovich, at least in the East, where people now rant against the spreading of anarchy and some demand "to end this uprising in a bloodbath". In Donetsk and Kharkiv at least, groups of vigilantes have formed/where hired (it is hard to say), who want "to defend their cities against anarchy".

I found this article through an Ukrainian friend of mine, and I think it gives some more insight into the lines along which the country is split.
Though I have my doubts, whether it is really geographically that clear; it is also a question of generations. Younger and better educated people are far more likely to have a 'Western European' mindset. Or take Jews: Not only that there is widespread anti-semitism amongst nationalists, the Jewish minority speaks mostly Russian, also in Western Ukraine.

Seems like the political crisis is now joined by an economical one, as the national currency Hryvnia has seen a steep fall over the last weeks and tuesday there was reported a big run on banks throughout the country, as Ukraniains tried buy as many Dollars and Euros as they could, leading to shortages and limitations in some places. Ukrainians have made traumatic experiences with hyperinflation during the 2008 crisis and even worse, in the 1990ies. And if you look at this chart, their experience might repeat.

However, there seems to be some movement in the Verkhovna Rade (=Parliament) to make changes to the constitution in order to weaken the president's position. It is not clear yet, whether these attempts will be successful, but a change of the constitution could take away enough of peoples' fears of "the Belorussian way" so that they can wait until the2015 elections to get rid of Yanukovich.

.....And these are the guys accused of playing the entire world like a puppet, toppling regimes at will....

Yeah, right.