Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
The one lacking understanding is you, for you have misinterpreted my argument and only served to reinforce my point: If you cant trust the police to protect you where can you turn?
Take away guns and you place sole responsability towards the protection of the populace upon the police, I didnt think you needed explaining why that isnt always a good solution: George Floyd should be an expert lesson!
Except that this doesn't work - certainly not for minorities in the USA. Although an individual can probably outrun the nation of the USA, no group can have an organised life with any sort of normality where they try to outfight the nation. Do you honestly think if the protesters were shooting at the police they'd be winning?
Should George have drawn a gun and shot the four police officers? He'd need something pretty impressive to kill four police before he got killed and would need to shoot before he can be overpowered. And there's four of them of course. Ergo, he should pop to the shops with an AR-15 on his back, or perhaps an MP-5 or other sub machine gun or PDW.
The police killed him after a 911 call that he used a fake $20. If he'd had a gun sufficiently powerful to survive the police, the 911 caller would have been telling the police about an armed black criminal so now the response will be substantively greater - probably a SWAT team of 5-6 officers.
So for George to purchase his groceries needs to have... erm... body armour (probably ceramic plate, since the response will be carrying assault rifles), ideally a defensive shield (ceramic plates are only good for a few shots at best), helmet (SWAT are good shots), gas mask (tear gas), one or two PDWs or an AR-15 (to successfully kill or incapacitate 6 trained officers will require rapid and accurate shooting) which in either case would need to be able to penetrate armour since they'll be wearing at least standard bullet proof vests.
To play it safe, he'd better deploy some claymore mines or other explosives outside the store before he goes in since walking in with guns and armour they'll call the police before he even gets to pay and this way he can mitigate them firing from multiple directions as he leaves from a fixed exit.
OK... So he manged to kill the first response team who were sent in with his guns and so on. I imagine as soon as the shooting starts, they'll escalate to either a helicopter, perhaps and APC or the other ex-military equipment the police in the USA have along with a lot more troops. So realistically, to manage to get home with the groceries he'll need an anti-material rifle. Something like a .50 with the right ammo might work - ideally a RPG but the damn government infringed his second amendment rights with not allowing this to be owned... Frankly he really needs a second person on a rooftop to provide overwatch. His car better be up-armoured to survive as well...
No wonder more and more people shop online.
Every hick with their own shotgun and family blood feud sounds like a comedy set in the boonies, not a civilised society. But then that has been Europe's view of the USA for... quite some time. The average person won't even be able to fight off burglars since unless you sleep in your kelvar vest, have the gun in a safe by the bed, wake up instantly and have the children further away from where the break in occurred (best have no windows on all bedrooms, just to be sure), there's a good chance the first thing you know is when there's a gun pointing at you whilst in bed.
One key plank of society is believing lies - and a key lie is that committing crimes will lead to punishment. Of course it doesn't - but most of us believe it enough of the time that we follow the rules which benefits us all more than breaking them would. This also relies on having a police force that that functions by consent - which is a concept that the USA hasn't grasped either, from the troopers to the President. You've got something equivalent to an occupying paramilitary.
~:smoking:
06-03-2020, 15:32
ReluctantSamurai
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Have you read Night Watch?
No. The You Tube reading was rather boring. So Vimes=Chris Swanson? The only thing of significance, to me, was the would-be archer assassin with no ID. Kinda like the pallets of bricks mysteriously showing up at various demonstrations:
One key plank of society is believing lies - and a key lie is that committing crimes will lead to punishment. Of course it doesn't - but most of us believe it enough of the time that we follow the rules which benefits us all more than breaking them would.
It's called Wizard's First Rule:
Quote:
"People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true.
(From Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth book series.)
06-03-2020, 15:36
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
I disagree with labeling us a former UK colony -- too much of the territory and history was never under Brit control (we stole/bought/conquered it from others). On the other hand, I did smirk a bit at the sardonic humor parallel with the other thread.
We are in the midst of a huge crisis regarding the rule of law as practiced. Our criminal justice system is failing us. Cop culture has become, in far too much of our country, functionally (sometimes overtly) racist, and entirely too militaristic. Americans of African descent in particular, do not only not feel served and protected but targeted. They have withdrawn their consent to be policed in this fashion -- as they should.
06-03-2020, 18:29
Strike For The South
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Policing in America is in need of a total and complete overhaul. Post 1968 the confluence of law and order candidates, rise of violent crime(which has sharply fallen), and the war on drugs has led to an overly militarized police force with little oversight. Combine this with the siege mentality imparted by the second amendment and it is a recipe for disaster.
Then we have to get into the corruption and the in group, out group dynamic of policing. The thin blue line mantra is a nice way to explore this mentality. On one side you have the proverbial good citizens and on the other side the bad criminals. The only thing that separates these to entities is the small amount of LEOs. This idea is absurd on its face because it supposes the citizens and criminals are not only static and different but that they are kept separated by the law. Barring some sort of thought crime device that would be impossible. One wouldn't think to take this literally except for the facts that the cops do.
It must be stressed policing is a fundamentally reactive job. A crime happens, and the cops show up after it is done. In order to increase their own efficacy, many departments have implemented proactive policing methods. This means that cops are around what are deemed high risk neighborhoods. Of course a high risk neighborhood tends to be poor and black an if the police are hanging around they will eventually find something. There is an old saying among defense attorneys, the average person commits three felonies a day.
Then once you are arrested you are thrown into a judicial system which is confusing and scary without adequate legal representation. It should come as no surprise to anyone that many innocent people plead out due to fear. Some of the heinous "tough on crime" sentencing procedures are finally being unraveled but it is a slow process.
So you have to take that kind of policing and lay it over Americas racial landscape. While the killings are obviously the most heinous manifestations of enforcement, the biggest disparities between racial groups in America comes in the wether they are sentenced to prison and for how long.
America has 24% of the worlds incarcerated persons. 40% of those incarcerated are Black. That means roughly 10% of all the worlds incarcerated people are Black Americans. To get a sense of proportion, Black Americans are about .6 percent of the worlds population. So one most ask themselves how do they end being incarcerated at a rate 20x their share of population. The answer is a combination of Americas obsession with punishment and racism. A quarter of Americas incarcerated people have not even been convicted or sentenced, the simply can't afford to pay bail!
The racial data on policing is pretty obvious. Black Americans are stopped more, searched more, arrested more, and sentenced more harshly than their white counterparts. Any one of these things can begin a cycle that can be nearly impossible to get out of. This of course is on top of the slavery, segregation, black codes, and red linings that have shut Black Americans out of a lot wealth and upward mobility.
A felony or even a misdemeanor conviction in America shuts you out of so much. You lose out on jobs, housing, state assistance. Any actual hope of re entering society is ground out by barriers set up once you have served you sentence. The felony follows you forever, a veritable scarlet letter. America is not a forgiving place, it is a punitive place and that is especially true if you are Black.
So I don't have a ton of time for people who say "All lives matter" unironically because that is nothing but erasure. To look at the arc of American history and not understand the inequities imposed upon Black people is ignorance at best. It is the same reason why I can't buy in to a lot of the class reductionist arguments that are making their rounds. Classism and Racism are two real and different things. So While I support something like M4A and think it will help everyone, including Black people, I do not assume these policies will result in any changing of the systemic racism.
I don't really think there is much to be gained from trying to tease out a reason for the looting and destruction beyond a basic non response from the government and the 30% unemployment we are currently hovering around. People looking to pin this on Antifa, the alr-right, or undercover cops will all probably find individual examples but will fall short of some nationwide masterplan.
I do think a lot of the worst offenses are done by people not from the neighborhoods they are destroying. Someone used the phrase chaos tourism earlier and I think that very much fits what we see happening. A lot of downwardly mobile white people trying to exploit Black peoples grievances for their own gain. Of course each city has its own character and of course each city is saying all of these people are coming from somewhere else.
I am not necessarily going to weep for a Target but I will weep for people and small business owners who live in these neighborhoods that have become epicenters for destruction. This is just compounding their troubles. Their cry for humanity and justice is being met with their homes and wealth being destroyed.
Ive thrown up on this page but the three books I recommend to everyone are "The New Jim Crow", "The Rise of The Warrior Cop", and "The Color of Law". These three books are relatively easy, short reads but very illuminating.
06-03-2020, 19:04
Hooahguy
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Someone posted this on a Facebook group Im in and I felt it deserved sharing:
Quote:
It's been tough to sort out how to support during the past few weeks, and I guess what I'd like to do is share.I graduated Law Enforcement Academy in 2011, hired to work at both a small department and LE for the DNR in 2012. Through those experiences I'd like to share some things ...
1) You are taught two very opposing things: first, that you are disposable. The number of times that we witnessed on video cops getting hit by vehicles, shot, stabbed, and even gassed by a tank of anhydrous ammonia was enough to get you to understand that, in reality, you need to accept this.
2) In accepting this, as in TRULY accepting this, you overcome the fear that will make you be afraid to die. When you don't have that fear you think quicker, you act quicker, and crazy as it is that is what keeps you from death, sometimes.
3) Because you know that you are disposable, and because you have continuous trauma in your life on the job, you learn that your lifeline is the people that you work with: your backup, your mutual aid, your dispatchers, etc. The shared trauma and bonds that area created ensure that you all go home. That you have each others backs. That you live until the end of your shift.
4) There is a complaint process. You can file complaints on officers when you feel like they have messed up, wrongly arrested, have broken the law, etc. However, how that complaint is handled depends on two things (1) how close that division is to the department and (2) the culture of the department.
5) So a discussion on culture ... I've been on ride alongs with 6 different departments, worked mutual aid with 7, and directly worked for 2 different bureaus. Even in the same county they are different. The one I worked for directly doesn't exist anymore and for good reason. One removed the radar from their cars - directive was on crime not on speed patrol (and it worked). One was much more concerned about the appearance of the town and community. The rest were amazing. Culture sets a tone, and that tone starts with where the community feels the importance lies. The problem is that once a culture is established, it's very difficult to change. There is now a "way things are done," performed by a group of individuals who have accepted that they are disposable and have shared trauma with bonds that ensure that they all have each other's backs. So they can go home at night. And these cultures can last for generations.
6) Where. It. Went. Wrong ... Well, it went wrong in a lot of places. (1) if you have a culture that is grounded in suppressing high crime rates you have the potential to attract those who get off dominating people. And for those who wish to dominate people, this is the perfect way to do it. And since those areas have the most opportunity to dominate and a culture of shared-trauma-cover-my-ass-everyone-goes-home-at-night they have the opportunity to flourish with little to keep them in check. ... (2) if you have a division handling complaints that is not INDEPENDENT OF THE DEPARTMENT then you have no way to keep those corrupt or aggressive officers in check. This also makes it harder for one officer to report on another officer ... (3) if you as an officer have not had your genuine "OH SHIT" moment where it's OK for you not to go home, you harbor an unhealthy fear of death. That fear will make you jump from asking to see a license to grabbing for your weapon way WAY out of play with reality. That needs to be recognized and addressed at the FTO level... (4) initial training, continuous training, and evaluations. Initial training that focuses more on communication and conflict resolution than DAAT and firearms tactics. I learned so much more under the DNR's culture on how to handle situations so they did NOT escalate, because their's was a culture where it was about finding solutions and listening instead of hunting for reasons to cite someone, which was my village cop job culture.
7) How. Do. We. Fix. It ... (1) More surveillance to protect everyone involved (body cameras). No one should have to rely on a random cell phone to see what happened. ... (2) A division that handle's complaints that is independent of the department that has its roots in criminal law/enforcement. Independent in processes, but educated in the job. ... (3) Training that also focuses on verbal tactics, negotiation, and conflict resolution. Because if you can start by defusing the situation, you are way less likely to escalate it... (4) Money from citations goes to the governing body and NOT the department. Getting informed on the side about funding goals as I'm getting pulled into an office for giving out a lot of warnings instead of writing paper but covering your ass as a chief by saying "Not that we have quotas or anything" is NOT THE GOAL OF POLICE WORK. I'm sorry, but when I pull a car over for an exhaust system that is dragging on the ground that I want fixed, writing a citation isn't anything but a funding move. He needs a 5-day R&R to make him fix the thing. THAT is what needs to happen. The fact that my forest with the DNR got zero funds back from all citations written was, in hindsight, a Godsend.
Most cops work in this world. A world where their own culture sets them up for failure because the support structure it needs to offer protection to do a job that forces them to give their life up daily also protects those violent or inept ones who, at least, should be fired if not prosecuted. A world where the public beast loves them one moment and wants to slaughter them the next. A world where their focus may be on their community, but they may have to deal with a chief whose focus is budgetary. We can march all we like, we can protest, and make memes and black out our social media walls, but until we have a governing body that can restructure the system of accountability, an education platform that is uniform and refocused, and a local restructuring of police funding and focus on surveillance, then we will accomplish nothing more than the temporary gains and losses that have been going on for decades.
06-03-2020, 21:10
Greyblades
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Misinterpreted? Not likely. It's the same rhetoric being spouted by our Fearless Leader. The Iron Fist approach.....
And this just makes my point about your lack of understanding of how racism in this country works. Yes, it's an expert lesson on how NOT to do things. There is no police training manual anywhere in the US that states you kneel on the neck of a handcuffed suspect that is clearly in distress for 8 or 9 minutes until he dies.....right there on the pavement! It's called murder, my friend:inquisitive: And the biggest point of all that you are missing completely is that if George Floyd was white, none of that would have happened.
And you think it would be a good idea to make the institution that put those cops on the front line the only recourse the people of minneapolis have in the face of violence? Thats what gun control would mean for minnesota and many other states.
Better start hoping that this time widespread reforms happen, I mean it didnt all the other times a national outrage descended into looting and arson. A lot of areas stayed so through a lot of different governers, mayors, police chiefs, presidents, but a chance's a chance that this time it'll be different, I guess.
And once you've gotten your reformed better trained police, better hope that they dont get redirected from defending you into by whichever politician ends up with power over them.
06-03-2020, 22:43
ReluctantSamurai
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Thats what gun control would mean for minnesota and many other states.
When were we ever talking about gun control~:confused: This whole thread is about overly militaristic police, and the unequal, and unjust, violence done on minority races.:inquisitive:
And please just stop with the 'thin blue line' crap. Read the second paragraph in Strikes post earlier:no:
06-04-2020, 00:22
Tuuvi
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
So I don't have a ton of time for people who say "All lives matter" unironically because that is nothing but erasure. To look at the arc of American history and not understand the inequities imposed upon Black people is ignorance at best. It is the same reason why I can't buy in to a lot of the class reductionist arguments that are making their rounds. Classism and Racism are two real and different things. So While I support something like M4A and think it will help everyone, including Black people, I do not assume these policies will result in any changing of the systemic racism.
The real meaning behind the "All lives matter" slogan was revealed by the guy in Salt Lake who was screaming it while trying to murder protestors with a bow and arrow.
06-04-2020, 16:52
Strike For The South
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Hooah I think that post is poisoned from the start. Cops are in no way disposable. Not only is the risk of dying on the job much lower than a myriad of other blue collar professions, but they have union protections even the French can't dream of. This is the siege mentality I am talking about. The chance of a cop dying on patrol is exceedingly low. However, if you implant that fear in them, it becomes a much worse situation for everyone.
This adversarial relationship its hell on interactions. Its why many cops buy into the thin blue line. The mental side of the job is the most taxing bit. Of course the mental side is the one we have totally ignored. An interaction with a cop is the most stressful part of most peoples day, maybe week. The cop is introduced to that stress over and over again. That is the part of the job that is the worst and that I don't envy.
I don't really have answers so I don't want to come off as dogging your friend but we need to asses the level of danger in good faith.
06-04-2020, 19:00
Montmorency
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Aight man, here’s a book I wrote about cops in New York
(Son, do you know what I’m stoppin' you for?)
You know, I’m sayin' fuck the police, fuck the NYPD
(Son, do you know what he’s stoppin' you for?)
They never made me feel safer
[Verse 1]
He had the badge ID covered in black tape (covered)
Irish dude spends his weekends in blackface (a weirdo!)
Smacking Immigrants, asking them how the crack taste (Guatamalans!)
Mushed his pregnant wife face while she lactate (a bad man!)
Over-overseeing the rat race
Goes to Cape Cod when Manhattan feels too fast paced
Now he hate God, disgraced, odd and out of place
And he takes it out on us (his experience)
Victor told me what happened with them BART cops
Told ‘em, “Yo, I ain’t ever met a smart cop” (they’re idiots)
Alec said no one heard of you like a cool cop
In '01 almost shot the fair one with a school cop
Heema for Louima cause they could have did'd me wrong (I’m brown!)
That’s word to Eleanor Bumpurs in a Lou Reed song
Protect and serve, keep from the way of harm
Timothy Stansbury was 19 and unarmed
[Hook x2]
Ayo, fuck the New York pricks and dicks
Who wanna be a cop but a power hungry idiot?
The worst people!
New York cops are the worst!
[Verse 2]
Oy vey, these guys is New York’s spineless
Strangled and denied it for Anthony Baez
They was cruel, maybe had a pool, probably
That was ‘94, he was one of three bodies (unarmed)
Ernest Sayon (unarmed)
And Johnnie Cromartie (unarmed)
Under Giuliani, well, they had them a party (bang bang!)
In '73, there were riots in Queens (Jamaica)
When they merked Clifford Glover, he wasn’t even a teen (a child!)
Used to be nine, he had just turned ten (a child!)
Pig said, “Die, you little fuck” and got off clean (yup)
And ain’t a thing that these bars do
That can make up for the pain of the family of Fermin Arzu
They the ones who always put the firearms pon you (on you!)
But shoot and say they thought you had a gun up in the car, dude (there’s no gun, no gun)
Ousmane Zongo '03, Diallo in like '99
I swear this shit happen like 90 times definitely
Definitely happens, like, plenty times
But it’s documented, like, 20 times
Well, Randolph Evans, well —
[Hook/Verse 3]
Randolph Evans was 15 in 1976
And a cop did two years for shooting him
One time, point blank in the head
And thirty years later exactly, on his wedding day
Four officers (in Queens) shot 50 bullets
And Sean Bell was, uh, dead
Veteran detective Oliver, two magazines, no remorse, geez, man!
Gescard Isnora
Basquiat ‘81, Irony of Negro police, man
Back in the day on the train Dap was G’in a Cremaster poster
Guyanese cop look like me (speedin’!)
Rolled up, plainclothes tucked, gun in the holster
Said not to do that. It bugged me out
They could look like me, too?
Y2K Grand Wizard Giuliani wasn’t done
Bad boys, bad boys took Patrick Dorismond
Plainclothes asking him where to cop tree
Shot him one time and didn’t have to flee
Well, yo, it was an accident, see
And once again the boys in blue got off scott free
(“Well, I’m white, sooo…I own this place?”)
No rap?
Alberta Spruill was 57 and didn’t leave her home
They tossed a concussion grenade into her living room
And scared her to death
I never felt safer
Its bugged out that they're supposed to make you feel safer
(“Well, I’m a white cop, so I own this… world?”)
Heems awn like em, Radio Raheem don't like em
(“Uh, yeah, well, I’m white, soooo…”)
And Michael Stewart who do art under the ground
Got found and laid down by
Eleven white cops that pound
-ed him for thirty-two minutes between arrest and delivery (they played with the paperwork!)
Alive and barely breathing, to dead in ‘83
Radio Raheem (Spike Lee!)
I don’t fuck with cops!
Your reminder that, just a few days ago the President of the United States:
Ordered a lawful, peaceful assembly brutally dispersed by federal agents
Did it because he wanted to film an AMV of himself walking unhindered to a church 5 minutes from the White House and holding a Bible upside down (the church staff were among those repressed)
Did so despite the fact that waiting half an hour for curfew to take effect would have averted any tension between the President and the presence of protesters, meaning the President of the United States chose to violently attack a peaceful assembly deliberately for its own sake
Declared protesters around the country terrorists and insurrectionists and vowed to subdue them with military force
Deployed Border Patrol paramilitaries (!) and Black Hawk helicopters as a show of force to intimidate protesters
Mentioned "protecting your 2nd Amendment rights." Now, this one deserves deconstruction, because it makes no sense in the context either of the speech he mentioned it in, nor the civil unrest he was addressing. Did he mean the 2nd Amendment rights of police and soldiers? Inapplicable, as they are already issued government guns. Did he mean the 2nd Amendment rights of protesters? Unlikely, as the implication would be for protesters to take up arms against a tyrannical government; Trump definitely wasn't saying that. The reference to the 2nd Amendment only makes sense as a call to communal violence by Trump-supporting private citizens against his enemies (here the protesters).
Among other things. One of the few escalations still remaining is toward targeted killings. There is genuinely not much room for deterioration before the US ceases to be a free-ish country. Here we see a very direct parallel to the overthrow of democratic governments in Brazil, Argentina, Chile, etc. and subsequent authoritarian yokes. This is literally how it happened there. The fascist whirlwind come to roost - poetic but not justice.
But some of the more hubristic Europeans need to be more self-aware if they're gloating. The past decade has repeatedly taught us that nowhere in this world is secure from the headwinds. There's nowhere to run but with each other.
I was glad to see that yesterday's protests in DC, at least, experienced minimal violence from the government. I can only hope mobilizing the National Guard will backfire on Republicans; these folks tend to be more disciplined, reflective, and representative of the country than common police. Pushing them might lead no further than August 1991. It's highly corrosive that the traditionally (pridefully so) non-partisan and civilian-led military should be put in a position at all to rebuff the Commander in Chief, but I have some confidence in their capacity to do so.
Quote:
As the crowd thinned at Lafayette Square near the White House, some officers on the front line appeared to relax. An officer in a helmet and a shoulder patch that read “Special Forces” popped his head out from the second row and struck up a conversation with Joshua Rosen, 27, who was wearing a Jewish Yamuka and Tallit. Eventually, he asked: “Do you think we could see a prayer?”
Rosen nodded, then tried to remember the songs he had learned in his synagogue in Greenbelt, Md. He started with “Shalom Rav,” then sang “Lo Yisa Goy.” He paused when he couldn’t remember the exact line and another member of the crowd chimed in.
No, but this quote is frequently reproduced around the Internet.
Quote:
"It always embarrassed Samuel Vimes when civilians tried to speak to him in what they thought was ‘policeman’. If it came to that, he hated thinking of them as civilians. What was a policeman, if not a civilian with a uniform and a badge? But they tended to use the term these days as a way of describing people who were not policemen. It was a dangerous habit: once policemen stopped being civilians the only other thing they could be was soldiers. “
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
<snip>
I've played this game. You just need to hide from the police for a few minutes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
And you think it would be a good idea to make the institution that put those cops on the front line the only recourse the people of minneapolis have in the face of violence? Thats what gun control would mean for minnesota and many other states.
Better start hoping that this time widespread reforms happen, I mean it didnt all the other times a national outrage descended into looting and arson. A lot of areas stayed so through a lot of different governers, mayors, police chiefs, presidents, but a chance's a chance that this time it'll be different, I guess.
When conservatives believe the extensive active application of force somewhere is necessary to maintain civic tranquility, they leave a lot of win-win arrangements on the table, all because they seemingly can't imagine the operation of a society that isn't organized around relationships of mutual aggression, dominance, obedience, and obligate hierarchy.
But we know that, once granted that systematic state repression is not an effective method to reducing crime and violence, often the evidence is that it is outright counterproductive. The only argument for such practices that are traumatic and dangerous to everyone on both sides of the metal therefore must be the psychic and vicarious pleasure of thinking someone is cracking someone's skull on your behalf.
This kind of thinking (often aspirational (!) among lower-status conservatives) would be upsettingly-blinkered and misanthropic - among other things - from an American jingoist, but it's stunning coming from someone who's from where he's from.
At this stage stripping police departments of money and resources may be the simpler and more effective strategy to get in with a shout in the short term than just continuing to struggle toward a comprehensive "reform" package (though that should remain a goal as well).
Quote:
And once you've gotten your reformed better trained police, better hope that they dont get redirected from defending you into by whichever politician ends up with power over them.
There has been discussion in this thread establishing that police are notoriously-resistant to the 'interference' of elected officials (where the goals of both do not come aligned). I can't identify a mechanism that emerges to - it's not even clear her what the imagined scenario is - make the police more reliant on the character of whatever mayor or governor occupies the chief executive out of reforms that successfully transform policing on the targeted properties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Hooah I think that post is poisoned from the start. Cops are in no way disposable. Not only is the risk of dying on the job much lower than a myriad of other blue collar professions, but they have union protections even the French can't dream of. This is the siege mentality I am talking about. The chance of a cop dying on patrol is exceedingly low. However, if you implant that fear in them, it becomes a much worse situation for everyone.
It sounded like that's exactly what the commentator was highlighting.
Quote:
This adversarial relationship its hell on interactions. Its why many cops buy into the thin blue line. The mental side of the job is the most taxing bit. Of course the mental side is the one we have totally ignored. An interaction with a cop is the most stressful part of most peoples day, maybe week. The cop is introduced to that stress over and over again. That is the part of the job that is the worst and that I don't envy.
Very good point that each interaction between a cop and non-cop is mentally and emotionally straining for both parties. Every interaction is another opportunity for violence, which is a point police abolitionists make when they refer to a "fundamental character" of policing.
I could see most patrolmen replaced with social workers and detectives, with a core reserve of armed response where needed. But I'm still holding out for a fully-convincing take on abolition. The basic problem is, people do at times need to be able to call someone for help, and despite all problems the police are generally the only ones to turn to (one of the commonly-stated problems is that very often they don't actually help or try to help!). The alternative is overwhelmingly either organized crime rackets (part of the reason for the persistence of gangs in minority neighborhoods is that they are underprotected), private security (good only for oligarchs really), or vigilante groups (a return to premodern quasi-legal systems based on communal sanction and rex talionis). Sometimes you need HELP, right now, perhaps with dangerous individuals or thefts, and this is in the lacuna between rehabilitation and prevention. Rehabilitation and prevention are overwhelmingly preferable on a systemic and macro level, but individuals in specific acute circumstances need HELP.
06-04-2020, 20:36
a completely inoffensive name
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Hooah I think that post is poisoned from the start. Cops are in no way disposable. Not only is the risk of dying on the job much lower than a myriad of other blue collar professions, but they have union protections even the French can't dream of. This is the siege mentality I am talking about. The chance of a cop dying on patrol is exceedingly low. However, if you implant that fear in them, it becomes a much worse situation for everyone.
This adversarial relationship its hell on interactions. Its why many cops buy into the thin blue line. The mental side of the job is the most taxing bit. Of course the mental side is the one we have totally ignored. An interaction with a cop is the most stressful part of most peoples day, maybe week. The cop is introduced to that stress over and over again. That is the part of the job that is the worst and that I don't envy.
I don't really have answers so I don't want to come off as dogging your friend but we need to asses the level of danger in good faith.
If I recall correctly, being a Taxi driver is more deadly than being a police officer.
06-04-2020, 23:51
Hooahguy
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
As Monty said, the point was that their mentality was one of being disposable, under siege, thin blue line, etc. And I think the mentality is what harms the profession more than anything.
06-05-2020, 00:29
Pannonian
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
South, do you know anything about this? It's supposed to have happened in Austin on 1st June.
06-05-2020, 04:48
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
I have been considering the idea of a committee of vigilance system in our urban areas for a few days now. Why, despite its known problems? Because the communities in question do not trust/support/want police. Can they police themselves better? They know who is to be trusted and whose story is what -- and they mostly know who is full of it. I wonder how much worse it could be than the extant system... I have often claimed to be a fan of government that is as minimal and localized as possible. So I have trouble supporting a police force concept as practiced -- especially since that practice is functionally racist oppression all too often.
I think maybe moving to a UK model -- no guns except for specialist backup -- may have greater utility despite (because of?) the 290 million firearms we collectively own. Policing as is IS stressful to all parties involved, and we have militarized policing more in the last 40 years of our War on Drugs than ever before. And that has worked so well for us...:rolleyes:
I am stressed, embarrassed, and ashamed -- this has not been a good couple of weeks.
On the other hand, the gym is back open and I haven't been actively abused for being one of the <10% of patrons working out while masked (and I was one of those nudniks who re-racked weights and cleaned surfaces after use even before COVID, so I have only had to add wiping down before use).
06-05-2020, 06:59
Montmorency
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
I have been considering the idea of a committee of vigilance system in our urban areas for a few days now. Why, despite its known problems? Because the communities in question do not trust/support/want police. Can they police themselves better? They know who is to be trusted and whose story is what -- and they mostly know who is full of it. I wonder how much worse it could be than the extant system... I have often claimed to be a fan of government that is as minimal and localized as possible. So I have trouble supporting a police force concept as practiced -- especially since that practice is functionally racist oppression all too often.
The state can and should be there to help! From social work to intervention/mediation teams to restorative justice.
There's no need to choose between Wild West and Judge Dredd.
06-05-2020, 19:01
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
The state can and should be there to help! From social work to intervention/mediation teams to restorative justice.
There's no need to choose between Wild West and Judge Dredd.
Fair Point. I am talking more along the lines of each ward of a city handles justice for that local community -- a bit more brehon than judge Dredd in my head at least. Not sure how in practice.
06-06-2020, 01:17
Strike For The South
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
South, do you know anything about this? It's supposed to have happened in Austin on 1st June.
A man was abused by police and they then abused the people trying to get him medical attention. The video is particularly heinous because the protesters were told to bring him the station. There are 000s of videos like this twitter, running the gambit of unacceptable. It is amazing to see a total breakdown among the LEOs. They are proving the protestors points in real time. Never before have a seen a group of people so totally unconcerned with image.
Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
If I recall correctly, being a Taxi driver is more deadly than being a police officer.
They are roughly equal, of course no one thanks taxi drivers nor do taxi drivers have the ability to ruin your life. Well, I suppose they could drive off the road.
Quote:
I could see most patrolmen replaced with social workers and detectives, with a core reserve of armed response where needed. But I'm still holding out for a fully-convincing take on abolition. The basic problem is, people do at times need to be able to call someone for help, and despite all problems the police are generally the only ones to turn to (one of the commonly-stated problems is that very often they don't actually help or try to help!). The alternative is overwhelmingly either organized crime rackets (part of the reason for the persistence of gangs in minority neighborhoods is that they are underprotected), private security (good only for oligarchs really), or vigilante groups (a return to premodern quasi-legal systems based on communal sanction and rex talionis). Sometimes you need HELP, right now, perhaps with dangerous individuals or thefts, and this is in the lacuna between rehabilitation and prevention. Rehabilitation and prevention are overwhelmingly preferable on a systemic and macro level, but individuals in specific acute circumstances need HELP.
Abolition means different things to different people in different times. The most popular, but also most critiqued list of changes I have seen is the "8 can't wait" campaign. I really thought body cameras would make a difference but here we are.
06-06-2020, 01:36
ReluctantSamurai
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
A man was abused by police and they then abused the people trying to get him medical attention. The video is particularly heinous because the protesters were told to bring him the station. There are 000s of videos like this twitter, running the gambit of unacceptable. It is amazing to see a total breakdown among the LEOs. They are proving the protestors points in real time. Never before have a seen a group of people so totally unconcerned with image.
The Buffalo officers might take the cake so far. Two officers push a 75 year old over who cracks his head. The two are suspended, and 50-odd officers strike in their support. Unprovoked, elderly victim who is severely injured, caught on camera, and dozens of officers withdraw their services in support of the culprits after a day's consideration. It's not even misconduct in the heat of the moment, as the direct culprits are palpably guilty with clear evidence, and the supporting officers have had a day to think about their action.
06-06-2020, 02:42
Montmorency
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Abolition means different things to different people in different times. The most popular, but also most critiqued list of changes I have seen is the "8 can't wait" campaign. I really thought body cameras would make a difference but here we are.
Just to be clear, the 8 Can't Wait list promotes reform measures, not abolition in any sense.
I really wish I could find it, but a few days ago I saw a table of cities according to uptake of these reforms. I swear NYC had at least half of them; they sound good but it seems mere procedural reforms will never be enough... Yeah, remember body cams? So Org 2013.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
The Buffalo officers might take the cake so far. Two officers push a 75 year old over who cracks his head. The two are suspended, and 50-odd officers strike in their support. Unprovoked, elderly victim who is severely injured, caught on camera, and dozens of officers withdraw their services in support of the culprits after a day's consideration. It's not even misconduct in the heat of the moment, as the direct culprits are palpably guilty with clear evidence, and the supporting officers have had a day to think about their action.
Some of what I've been posting is worse (and I've seen worse than I've posted).
If this is how a couple dozen cops treat a single old white man in a suit quietly and calmly approaching them, untrammeled by any crowd or anything, imagine...
06-06-2020, 02:57
Pannonian
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Some of what I've been posting is worse (and I've seen worse than I've posted).
If this is how a couple dozen cops treat a single old white man in a suit quietly and calmly approaching them, untrammeled by any crowd or anything, imagine...
I don't mean worst as in viciousness. I mean worst as in stupidity. They've seen the fellow officers suspended after their misbehaviour was caught quite clearly on camera ("He's bleeding from his ear"). They've had a day to think about it. And they've decided as a group to back these two by withdrawing their services. As Strike says, have you seen a group of people so utterly unconcerned with image?
06-06-2020, 03:07
Montmorency
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
I don't mean worst as in viciousness. I mean worst as in stupidity. They've seen the fellow officers suspended after their misbehaviour was caught quite clearly on camera ("He's bleeding from his ear"). They've had a day to think about it. And they've decided as a group to back these two by withdrawing their services. As Strike says, have you seen a group of people so utterly unconcerned with image?
American police are extraordinarily entitled and pigheaded (Sheepdogs unite!), and will almost always protest, strike, or riot to uphold group solidarity and privilege. It's what they call the "thin blue line," as seen in the photo I posted of them raising their flag in place of the American flag. On government property.
NYPD for example are notorious for wielding police protest to browbeat mayors (see the Dinkins riot, patrolmen turning their backs on de Blasio).
It was one of the biggest riots in New York City history.
As many as 10,000 demonstrators blocked traffic in downtown Manhattan on Sept. 16, 1992. Reporters and innocent bystanders were violently assaulted by the mob as thousands of dollars in private property was destroyed in multiple acts of vandalism. The protesters stormed up the steps of City Hall, occupying the building. They then streamed onto the Brooklyn Bridge, where they blocked traffic in both directions, jumping on the cars of trapped, terrified motorists. Many of the protestors were carrying guns and openly drinking alcohol.
Yet the uniformed police present did little to stop them. Why? Because the rioters were nearly all white, off‐duty NYPD officers. They were participating in a Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association demonstration against Mayor David Dinkins’ call for a Civilian Complaint Review Board and his creation earlier that year of the Mollen Commission, formed to investigate widespread allegations of misconduct within the NYPD.
:no:
06-06-2020, 03:32
Hooahguy
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Just to be clear, the 8 Can't Wait list promotes reform measures, not abolition in any sense.
I really wish I could find it, but a few days ago I saw a table of cities according to uptake of these reforms. I swear NYC had at least half of them; they sound good but it seems mere procedural reforms will never be enough... Yeah, remember body cams? So Org 2013.
You probably didnt mean this, but 8 Cant Wait website has a drop-down list of cities and if they have already adopted any of the reforms. But I think it definitely has a lot to do with the culture and not just a list of reforms. Like with body cams, if the officers turn them off then its no good, like what happened when David McAtee was killed.
Interestingly enough at least here in DC its the federal police who were being abusive. The regular city cops have actually been decent to the protesters, at least according to some friends who have been protesting every day. Havent heard of any arrests being made either in the past couple of days which is good and there hasnt been a curfew the past couple days either. I plan on attending the various protests tomorrow so I will report back with pics. DC is expecting huge numbers so it will definitely be interesting. I did manage to get a hold of a couple n95 masks at my local store so at least I will be safe since I am very well aware that tomorrow will likely be a viral hotbed.
06-06-2020, 03:35
Strike For The South
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
The Buffalo officers might take the cake so far. Two officers push a 75 year old over who cracks his head. The two are suspended, and 50-odd officers strike in their support. Unprovoked, elderly victim who is severely injured, caught on camera, and dozens of officers withdraw their services in support of the culprits after a day's consideration. It's not even misconduct in the heat of the moment, as the direct culprits are palpably guilty with clear evidence, and the supporting officers have had a day to think about their action.
The man was returning a helmet too. Not that it matters what he was doing but ostensibly he was there to help!
Someone smarter than us, I'm sure, has figured out the exact moment when these people realized it be easier to co-op the police rather than fight them. Are you old enough to remember the 90s? Or are we both working off documentaries and books?
Quote:
Just to be clear, the 8 Can't Wait list promotes reform measures, not abolition in any sense.
True, but it is also the case that these are whats being picked up by the proverbial "MSM"
Quote:
I really wish I could find it, but a few days ago I saw a table of cities according to uptake of these reforms. I swear NYC had at least half of them; they sound good but it seems mere procedural reforms will never be enough... Yeah, remember body cams? So Org 2013.
Yea, most large cities have a majority of these things implemented. I still think bodycameras work they just have to be on. It is really telling how often their power goes missing.
Quote:
Some of what I've been posting is worse (and I've seen worse than I've posted).
If this is how a couple dozen cops treat a single old white man in a suit quietly and calmly approaching them, untrammeled by any crowd or anything, imagine...
Breanna Taylors killers have escaped any sort of punishment for no knock raid on a supposed non violent offender they already had in custody. One does not have to imagine very far.
06-06-2020, 04:15
Montmorency
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Interestingly enough at least here in DC its the federal police who were being abusive. The regular city cops have actually been decent to the protesters, at least according to some friends who have been protesting every day. Havent heard of any arrests being made either in the past couple of days which is good and there hasnt been a curfew the past couple days either.
Hmm... I know feds broke up the Lafayette gathering for the infamous photo-op, but I thought local police were behind the organic instances I was seeing. Maybe I wasn't looking carefully.
This week, besides the National Guards, Trump has assembled a motley crew of hundreds of ICE, CBP, TSA, Coast Guard, correctional officers (prison guards), and others. If McNamara had his Morons, these must be Trump's ---
Quote:
I plan on attending the various protests tomorrow so I will report back with pics. DC is expecting huge numbers so it will definitely be interesting. I did manage to get a hold of a couple n95 masks at my local store so at least I will be safe since I am very well aware that tomorrow will likely be a viral hotbed.
If the police stampede, just kind of shuffle out of the way. Don't speak or yell, maintain a neutral facial expression, and don't move. They can't see you if you don't move.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Someone smarter than us, I'm sure, has figured out the exact moment when these people realized it be easier to co-op the police rather than fight them. Are you old enough to remember the 90s? Or are we both working off documentaries and books?
I don't remember much of the 90s (certainly not the major federal police actions of Clinton's A-term), but you might be interested in the work of one Robert Evans in the development of the fringe right in the late 20th century.
Quote:
I still think bodycameras work they just have to be on. It is really telling how often their power goes missing.
The problem with body cams is that even when they work, if the video doesn't get out to the public there is no pressure to resolve the incident. Even when the video does get out, nevertheless nothing usually happens! The events of the past week should definitively prove that the police in general don't GAF how we see them behave (though they might stop you from recording personally). All the sophisticated PC prevarications learned by chiefs and their media managers over the past decades have not even been a strategy for deflection, but a superfluous polite facade for the stone-old maxim that "the strong do what they can."
06-06-2020, 05:00
Hooahguy
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Hmm... I know feds broke up the Lafayette gathering for the infamous photo-op, but I thought local police were behind the organic instances I was seeing. Maybe I wasn't looking carefully.
This week, besides the National Guards, Trump has assembled a motley crew of hundreds of ICE, CBP, TSA, Coast Guard, correctional officers (prison guards), and others. If McNamara had his Morons, these must be Trump's ---
The videos I saw looked like they were federal troops since to my knowledge, DC police dont carry round riot shields (they carry rectangular ones) and in the videos of police brutality, such as with the journalists, it was cops with round shields. I might have missed some videos though and I dont doubt that there were some instances of DC police beating protesters. But DC is very used to protests throughout history so Im not surprised that DC is handling it better than others.
Quote:
If the police stampede, just kind of shuffle out of the way. Don't speak or yell, maintain a neutral facial expression, and don't move. They can't see you if you don't move.
:laugh4:
But in all seriousness I am not anticipating any issues except around the White House. A huge swath of downtown DC is being shut to vehicle traffic and the mayor's office seems to be in close coordination with the protest organizers. But I guess we will see. Just in case though I am bringing protective eyeglasses because I have seen too many pictures of people with eye injuries from nonlethal rounds, and how would I mod this forum if I lost my eyesight? :yes:
06-06-2020, 12:49
ReluctantSamurai
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
What are the odds that the war of words between the far right & the far left escalates to a shooting war?
But in the Idaho city of Coeur d’Alene groups of 30-50 men armed with semi-automatic weapons have occupied downtown streets on successive evenings this week, guarding against supposed busloads of radical leftists rumored to traveling from cities such as Spokane or Seattle, according to local residents and social media materials obtained by the Guardian.
Quote:
In one speech, the Tuolumne county committee chair of the State of Jefferson, David Titchenal, instructs the crowd to organize in order to provide a “visual deterrent to potential looters and rioters, who may not be from Tuolumne county”. He should they should take up firing positions on top of buildings and become “roof rednecks”.
Roof Rednecks?:inquisitive:
And then to be endorsed by local LEO:
Quote:
Later, the crowd was addressed by Sonora chief of police, Turu VanderWiel. While urging people not to attend armed, VanderWiel appeared to endorse the plan for vigilante action, saying in a video recorded at the event, “as for coming out, I very much appreciate it. Extra eyes, extra bodies, standing together as a community.”
Wasn't that long ago that here in Michigan, armed anti-lockdown protesters occupied the state legislature in Lansing, followed by black counter-protesters doing much the same.
And heeeere we go.......:smg::hmg:
06-06-2020, 16:29
ReluctantSamurai
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
I have been considering the idea of a committee of vigilance system in our urban areas for a few days now. Why, despite its known problems? Because the communities in question do not trust/support/want police. Can they police themselves better? They know who is to be trusted and whose story is what -- and they mostly know who is full of it. I wonder how much worse it could be than the extant system... I have often claimed to be a fan of government that is as minimal and localized as possible. So I have trouble supporting a police force concept as practiced -- especially since that practice is functionally racist oppression all too often.
I have doubts about that:inquisitive: What I fear about 'a committee of vigilance' is that "Billy Bob" who has a relative(s) or friends on said committee, takes issue with his neighbor for some reason, and said committee begins making life difficult for this neighbor for no other reason than the "good-old-boy" mentality so prevalent here. With so much of the middle area (ie. non-partisan) of US society leaving to join the right or the left, how would oversight of such a committee be accomplished?
[If anyone has any doubts as to the challenges for a 'committee of vigilance' see my prior post-----Roof Rednecks will become all too common, IMHO]
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But I guess we will see. Just in case though I am bringing protective eyeglasses because I have seen too many pictures of people with eye injuries from nonlethal rounds, and how would I mod this forum if I lost my eyesight?
Stay safe.
06-06-2020, 23:22
Hooahguy
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Today was pretty incredible to witness. There had to have been tens of thousands of people protesting today in DC, if not in the hundreds of thousands. Started at noon at the Lincoln Memorial, marched up to Capitol Hill to protest in front of the Dirsken Senate Building, and then marched back down to the White House. Saw no violence or tension whatsoever, in fact I didnt see many cops at all, just the occasional cop cars blocking off various streets. So I guess I brought protective eyeglasses for no reason. The biggest issue was the heat, as it was in the 90's and it really takes a toll on you with a mask on. Spent about 4 hours at the protest before the heat was getting to me and called it a day.
Protesters as far as the eye can see both ways: Attachment 23799
06-07-2020, 03:32
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Today was pretty incredible to witness. There had to have been tens of thousands of people protesting today in DC, if not in the hundreds of thousands. Started at noon at the Lincoln Memorial, marched up to Capitol Hill to protest in front of the Dirsken Senate Building, and then marched back down to the White House. Saw no violence or tension whatsoever, in fact I didnt see many cops at all, just the occasional cop cars blocking off various streets. So I guess I brought protective eyeglasses for no reason. The biggest issue was the heat, as it was in the 90's and it really takes a toll on you with a mask on. Spent about 4 hours at the protest before the heat was getting to me and called it a day.
Protesters as far as the eye can see both ways: Attachment 23799
Having been jogging with a mask on for all of April and much of May, I can confirm that. You do NOT get the same flow of air.
