Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impunity

[Pannonian]

South, do you know anything about this? It's supposed to have happened in Austin on 1st June.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I have been considering the idea of a committee of vigilance system in our urban areas for a few days now. Why, despite its known problems? Because the communities in question do not trust/support/want police. Can they police themselves better? They know who is to be trusted and whose story is what -- and they mostly know who is full of it. I wonder how much worse it could be than the extant system... I have often claimed to be a fan of government that is as minimal and localized as possible. So I have trouble supporting a police force concept as practiced -- especially since that practice is functionally racist oppression all too often.

I think maybe moving to a UK model -- no guns except for specialist backup -- may have greater utility despite (because of?) the 290 million firearms we collectively own. Policing as is IS stressful to all parties involved, and we have militarized policing more in the last 40 years of our War on Drugs than ever before. And that has worked so well for us...

I am stressed, embarrassed, and ashamed -- this has not been a good couple of weeks.

On the other hand, the gym is back open and I haven't been actively abused for being one of the <10% of patrons working out while masked (and I was one of those nudniks who re-racked weights and cleaned surfaces after use even before COVID, so I have only had to add wiping down before use).

[Montmorency]

I have been considering the idea of a committee of vigilance system in our urban areas for a few days now. Why, despite its known problems? Because the communities in question do not trust/support/want police. Can they police themselves better? They know who is to be trusted and whose story is what -- and they mostly know who is full of it. I wonder how much worse it could be than the extant system... I have often claimed to be a fan of government that is as minimal and localized as possible. So I have trouble supporting a police force concept as practiced -- especially since that practice is functionally racist oppression all too often.

The state can and should be there to help! From social work to intervention/mediation teams to restorative justice.

There's no need to choose between Wild West and Judge Dredd.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The state can and should be there to help! From social work to intervention/mediation teams to restorative justice.

There's no need to choose between Wild West and Judge Dredd.

Fair Point. I am talking more along the lines of each ward of a city handles justice for that local community -- a bit more brehon than judge Dredd in my head at least. Not sure how in practice.

[Strike For The South]

South, do you know anything about this? It's supposed to have happened in Austin on 1st June.

A man was abused by police and they then abused the people trying to get him medical attention. The video is particularly heinous because the protesters were told to bring him the station. There are 000s of videos like this twitter, running the gambit of unacceptable. It is amazing to see a total breakdown among the LEOs. They are proving the protestors points in real time. Never before have a seen a group of people so totally unconcerned with image.

If I recall correctly, being a Taxi driver is more deadly than being a police officer.

They are roughly equal, of course no one thanks taxi drivers nor do taxi drivers have the ability to ruin your life. Well, I suppose they could drive off the road.

I could see most patrolmen replaced with social workers and detectives, with a core reserve of armed response where needed. But I'm still holding out for a fully-convincing take on abolition. The basic problem is, people do at times need to be able to call someone for help, and despite all problems the police are generally the only ones to turn to (one of the commonly-stated problems is that very often they don't actually help or try to help!). The alternative is overwhelmingly either organized crime rackets (part of the reason for the persistence of gangs in minority neighborhoods is that they are underprotected), private security (good only for oligarchs really), or vigilante groups (a return to premodern quasi-legal systems based on communal sanction and rex talionis). Sometimes you need HELP, right now, perhaps with dangerous individuals or thefts, and this is in the lacuna between rehabilitation and prevention. Rehabilitation and prevention are overwhelmingly preferable on a systemic and macro level, but individuals in specific acute circumstances need HELP.

Abolition means different things to different people in different times. The most popular, but also most critiqued list of changes I have seen is the "8 can't wait" campaign. I really thought body cameras would make a difference but here we are.

[ReluctantSamurai]

This sez it all about America:

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1269048818739212288

Dead African-Americans=Market Gains.

[Pannonian]

A man was abused by police and they then abused the people trying to get him medical attention. The video is particularly heinous because the protesters were told to bring him the station. There are 000s of videos like this twitter, running the gambit of unacceptable. It is amazing to see a total breakdown among the LEOs. They are proving the protestors points in real time. Never before have a seen a group of people so totally unconcerned with image.

The Buffalo officers might take the cake so far. Two officers push a 75 year old over who cracks his head. The two are suspended, and 50-odd officers strike in their support. Unprovoked, elderly victim who is severely injured, caught on camera, and dozens of officers withdraw their services in support of the culprits after a day's consideration. It's not even misconduct in the heat of the moment, as the direct culprits are palpably guilty with clear evidence, and the supporting officers have had a day to think about their action.

[Montmorency]

Note #253: Police are fascist paramilitaries, here seen coordinating with wannabe fascist paramilitaries.
https://twitter.com/Satellit3Heart/s...63536299675648

Abolition means different things to different people in different times. The most popular, but also most critiqued list of changes I have seen is the "8 can't wait" campaign. I really thought body cameras would make a difference but here we are.

Just to be clear, the 8 Can't Wait list promotes reform measures, not abolition in any sense.

I really wish I could find it, but a few days ago I saw a table of cities according to uptake of these reforms. I swear NYC had at least half of them; they sound good but it seems mere procedural reforms will never be enough... Yeah, remember body cams? So Org 2013.

The Buffalo officers might take the cake so far. Two officers push a 75 year old over who cracks his head. The two are suspended, and 50-odd officers strike in their support. Unprovoked, elderly victim who is severely injured, caught on camera, and dozens of officers withdraw their services in support of the culprits after a day's consideration. It's not even misconduct in the heat of the moment, as the direct culprits are palpably guilty with clear evidence, and the supporting officers have had a day to think about their action.

Some of what I've been posting is worse (and I've seen worse than I've posted).

If this is how a couple dozen cops treat a single old white man in a suit quietly and calmly approaching them, untrammeled by any crowd or anything, imagine...

[Pannonian]

Some of what I've been posting is worse (and I've seen worse than I've posted).

If this is how a couple dozen cops treat a single old white man in a suit quietly and calmly approaching them, untrammeled by any crowd or anything, imagine...

I don't mean worst as in viciousness. I mean worst as in stupidity. They've seen the fellow officers suspended after their misbehaviour was caught quite clearly on camera ("He's bleeding from his ear"). They've had a day to think about it. And they've decided as a group to back these two by withdrawing their services. As Strike says, have you seen a group of people so utterly unconcerned with image?

[Montmorency]

I don't mean worst as in viciousness. I mean worst as in stupidity. They've seen the fellow officers suspended after their misbehaviour was caught quite clearly on camera ("He's bleeding from his ear"). They've had a day to think about it. And they've decided as a group to back these two by withdrawing their services. As Strike says, have you seen a group of people so utterly unconcerned with image?

American police are extraordinarily entitled and pigheaded (Sheepdogs unite!), and will almost always protest, strike, or riot to uphold group solidarity and privilege. It's what they call the "thin blue line," as seen in the photo I posted of them raising their flag in place of the American flag. On government property.

NYPD for example are notorious for wielding police protest to browbeat mayors (see the Dinkins riot, patrolmen turning their backs on de Blasio).


EDIT:



https://www.cato.org/publications/co...history-lesson

It was one of the biggest riots in New York City history.

As many as 10,000 demonstrators blocked traffic in downtown Manhattan on Sept. 16, 1992. Reporters and innocent bystanders were violently assaulted by the mob as thousands of dollars in private property was destroyed in multiple acts of vandalism. The protesters stormed up the steps of City Hall, occupying the building. They then streamed onto the Brooklyn Bridge, where they blocked traffic in both directions, jumping on the cars of trapped, terrified motorists. Many of the protestors were carrying guns and openly drinking alcohol.

Yet the uniformed police present did little to stop them. Why? Because the rioters were nearly all white, off‐​duty NYPD officers. They were participating in a Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association demonstration against Mayor David Dinkins’ call for a Civilian Complaint Review Board and his creation earlier that year of the Mollen Commission, formed to investigate widespread allegations of misconduct within the NYPD.

[Hooahguy]

Just to be clear, the 8 Can't Wait list promotes reform measures, not abolition in any sense.

I really wish I could find it, but a few days ago I saw a table of cities according to uptake of these reforms. I swear NYC had at least half of them; they sound good but it seems mere procedural reforms will never be enough... Yeah, remember body cams? So Org 2013.

You probably didnt mean this, but 8 Cant Wait website has a drop-down list of cities and if they have already adopted any of the reforms. But I think it definitely has a lot to do with the culture and not just a list of reforms. Like with body cams, if the officers turn them off then its no good, like what happened when David McAtee was killed.

Interestingly enough at least here in DC its the federal police who were being abusive. The regular city cops have actually been decent to the protesters, at least according to some friends who have been protesting every day. Havent heard of any arrests being made either in the past couple of days which is good and there hasnt been a curfew the past couple days either. I plan on attending the various protests tomorrow so I will report back with pics. DC is expecting huge numbers so it will definitely be interesting. I did manage to get a hold of a couple n95 masks at my local store so at least I will be safe since I am very well aware that tomorrow will likely be a viral hotbed.

[Strike For The South]

The Buffalo officers might take the cake so far. Two officers push a 75 year old over who cracks his head. The two are suspended, and 50-odd officers strike in their support. Unprovoked, elderly victim who is severely injured, caught on camera, and dozens of officers withdraw their services in support of the culprits after a day's consideration. It's not even misconduct in the heat of the moment, as the direct culprits are palpably guilty with clear evidence, and the supporting officers have had a day to think about their action.

The man was returning a helmet too. Not that it matters what he was doing but ostensibly he was there to help!

Note #253: Police are fascist paramilitaries, here seen coordinating with wannabe fascist paramilitaries.
https://twitter.com/Satellit3Heart/s...63536299675648

Someone smarter than us, I'm sure, has figured out the exact moment when these people realized it be easier to co-op the police rather than fight them. Are you old enough to remember the 90s? Or are we both working off documentaries and books?

Just to be clear, the 8 Can't Wait list promotes reform measures, not abolition in any sense.

True, but it is also the case that these are whats being picked up by the proverbial "MSM"

I really wish I could find it, but a few days ago I saw a table of cities according to uptake of these reforms. I swear NYC had at least half of them; they sound good but it seems mere procedural reforms will never be enough... Yeah, remember body cams? So Org 2013.

Yea, most large cities have a majority of these things implemented. I still think bodycameras work they just have to be on. It is really telling how often their power goes missing.

Some of what I've been posting is worse (and I've seen worse than I've posted).

If this is how a couple dozen cops treat a single old white man in a suit quietly and calmly approaching them, untrammeled by any crowd or anything, imagine...

Breanna Taylors killers have escaped any sort of punishment for no knock raid on a supposed non violent offender they already had in custody. One does not have to imagine very far.

[Montmorency]

Interestingly enough at least here in DC its the federal police who were being abusive. The regular city cops have actually been decent to the protesters, at least according to some friends who have been protesting every day. Havent heard of any arrests being made either in the past couple of days which is good and there hasnt been a curfew the past couple days either.

Hmm... I know feds broke up the Lafayette gathering for the infamous photo-op, but I thought local police were behind the organic instances I was seeing. Maybe I wasn't looking carefully.

https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-lea...154138680.html

This week, besides the National Guards, Trump has assembled a motley crew of hundreds of ICE, CBP, TSA, Coast Guard, correctional officers (prison guards), and others. If McNamara had his Morons, these must be Trump's ---

I plan on attending the various protests tomorrow so I will report back with pics. DC is expecting huge numbers so it will definitely be interesting. I did manage to get a hold of a couple n95 masks at my local store so at least I will be safe since I am very well aware that tomorrow will likely be a viral hotbed.

If the police stampede, just kind of shuffle out of the way. Don't speak or yell, maintain a neutral facial expression, and don't move. They can't see you if you don't move.

Someone smarter than us, I'm sure, has figured out the exact moment when these people realized it be easier to co-op the police rather than fight them. Are you old enough to remember the 90s? Or are we both working off documentaries and books?

I don't remember much of the 90s (certainly not the major federal police actions of Clinton's A-term), but you might be interested in the work of one Robert Evans in the development of the fringe right in the late 20th century.

I still think bodycameras work they just have to be on. It is really telling how often their power goes missing.

The problem with body cams is that even when they work, if the video doesn't get out to the public there is no pressure to resolve the incident. Even when the video does get out, nevertheless nothing usually happens! The events of the past week should definitively prove that the police in general don't GAF how we see them behave (though they might stop you from recording personally). All the sophisticated PC prevarications learned by chiefs and their media managers over the past decades have not even been a strategy for deflection, but a superfluous polite facade for the stone-old maxim that "the strong do what they can."

[Hooahguy]

Hmm... I know feds broke up the Lafayette gathering for the infamous photo-op, but I thought local police were behind the organic instances I was seeing. Maybe I wasn't looking carefully.

https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-lea...154138680.html

This week, besides the National Guards, Trump has assembled a motley crew of hundreds of ICE, CBP, TSA, Coast Guard, correctional officers (prison guards), and others. If McNamara had his Morons, these must be Trump's ---

The videos I saw looked like they were federal troops since to my knowledge, DC police dont carry round riot shields (they carry rectangular ones) and in the videos of police brutality, such as with the journalists, it was cops with round shields. I might have missed some videos though and I dont doubt that there were some instances of DC police beating protesters. But DC is very used to protests throughout history so Im not surprised that DC is handling it better than others.

If the police stampede, just kind of shuffle out of the way. Don't speak or yell, maintain a neutral facial expression, and don't move. They can't see you if you don't move.

But in all seriousness I am not anticipating any issues except around the White House. A huge swath of downtown DC is being shut to vehicle traffic and the mayor's office seems to be in close coordination with the protest organizers. But I guess we will see. Just in case though I am bringing protective eyeglasses because I have seen too many pictures of people with eye injuries from nonlethal rounds, and how would I mod this forum if I lost my eyesight?

[ReluctantSamurai]

What are the odds that the war of words between the far right & the far left escalates to a shooting war?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ntifa-protests

But in the Idaho city of Coeur d’Alene groups of 30-50 men armed with semi-automatic weapons have occupied downtown streets on successive evenings this week, guarding against supposed busloads of radical leftists rumored to traveling from cities such as Spokane or Seattle, according to local residents and social media materials obtained by the Guardian.

In one speech, the Tuolumne county committee chair of the State of Jefferson, David Titchenal, instructs the crowd to organize in order to provide a “visual deterrent to potential looters and rioters, who may not be from Tuolumne county”. He should they should take up firing positions on top of buildings and become “roof rednecks”.

Roof Rednecks?

And then to be endorsed by local LEO:

Later, the crowd was addressed by Sonora chief of police, Turu VanderWiel. While urging people not to attend armed, VanderWiel appeared to endorse the plan for vigilante action, saying in a video recorded at the event, “as for coming out, I very much appreciate it. Extra eyes, extra bodies, standing together as a community.”

Wasn't that long ago that here in Michigan, armed anti-lockdown protesters occupied the state legislature in Lansing, followed by black counter-protesters doing much the same.

And heeeere we go.......