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if you look at the foyer most games are still at the 15k mark .. but things will change hopefully because more and more are dropping to around 10k (some lower), at this level we have a lot of the veteran players .. the most important thing is trying to persuade the clans to play at this level aswell time will tell http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif but i think we should play at maximum 10k each http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
Better than a poll...
http://www.thiep.com/~ffmtw/iB_html/...rthanapoll.JPG
Louis,
I do not care what others host. I tend to host 10k games, and I really hope people wont shy away because it's not "popular" or "cool".
Problem is, when you host a non-clan game, you have to have ronins join, because clans sure as hell won't. Once you get maybe 2 or 3 ronins, your game has enough staying power to draw more passive individuals in, and maybe even clan members. Unfortunately, there are many ronins out there that rout at the sight of anything beneath 15k.
What I really dont understand that why you guys want to dropp the florin level to 5k-10k, whereas this level favours the christian heavy inf., heavy cavalry even more than 15k.
I know that you are fed up with the sword/cav armies at 15k and want a more balanced game. However, the 5k-10k range is even more unbalanced The problem of balance CANNOT BE SOLVED by changing the florin amount.
Well, would the lower rout point of swords make the kills some missiles or hybrids get that much more effective? I'd like to know, as I've never really seen anyone try this.
So if 15k is dominated by cav and sword how can lower florin be more unbalanced? I dont see lower florin games being dominated by one unit alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Heavy units get better but you have fewer of them. I have had lots of succes with light armies simply because of quantity, there is no such thing when you have money for 16 heavy elite units.
Yes florins alone cant make this game perfectly balanced but maybe try and play and understand the low florin games instead. I see several pro 15k who are very busy talking about how bad low florin games are..
CBR
Cheetah,
You could solve the faction imbalance by having all players take the same faction. In v1.0, all players were forced to take different factions and many though a modification, which was made in v1.1, to allow players to take the same faction was a great idea. You could bring the morale up +2 from 5k, by playing with all v1 units at 8.5k, and that would limit the christian cav knights the same way they are limited in 5k. The ranged units would be relatively cheaper at all v1 as well with the discounts. You could go to all v2 games at 15k to get more morale up +4 from the 5k level and ranged units would get even cheaper relative to hth inf and cav. The RPS might suffer a bit at this v2 level since it's morale dependent in some areas. I agree with you that just changing florins with no rules isn't enough. Of course, to those who feel that infantry should have higher morale than cavalry, these ideas won't be acceptable.
The v2.01 game is final now. We can try to find a more balanced place to play the game or just forget about it and play at 15k. It does seem to me that most players are not interested in finding a more balanced game and 15k is good enough for them; i.e. find the best unit and take a lot of them.
Sorry Cheetah I can't agree. The amount of success I had at 5k with an infantry based Turkish army tells me otherwiseQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
.......Orda
It is even more dominated by cav and sword http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
That is becasue only those players play 5k-10k games who are fed up with the sword/cav armies on the first place They switch to 5k-10k to try something different. I think that you could get the same enjoyable (or even more enjoyable http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif) games with the same people playing 15k.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Well, this depends on the florin level. At 10k you can get 15 decent heavy units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif In contrast, this is impossible at 15kQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
Well, this was my second comment on florin levels (not in this thread but in all of the threads), so yes, please call me "pro 15k who are very busy talking about how bad low florin games are" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
And, yes, I have tried low florin games.
As suggested before (by Louis and by me) the best solution is to put a max v2 on sword and axe units. This way you can play at 15k and get the nice morale, yet sword/axe units would not dominate the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
An overall v2 cap would be a heavy blow for the turkish hybrid units, imho it would cripple the playability of the turkish army.
Well, it depends on a lot of things, notably on your opposition. But given the fact that the turkish hybrid army is much stronger at 15k than at 10k (or below), I would suggest you to play the turks at 15k, you should have at least the same amount of success. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
If you cap swords at V2, where do you spend the leftover money? I'm not trying to make a point with this question, I'd just like an answer.
Hosting between 8k - 10k these days ... both feel ok ...
TGI
Cheetah,
The suggested v2 limit on swords was also on missle, so that's going to weaken Turks as well. I don't think you can bring faction imbalance in as a reason not to try to address more basic issues. Faction imbalance can be solved by playing the same faction as the opponent.
That's one possible solution. Is it the best solution? I certainly don't know. I have not played a single game with that rule and now thinks it's more of an intellectual hypothesys that anything else. It might be good, it might be fun, but it's not going to be played by anyone but a very small group (even smaller than 5k fan) even if it's great...Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Kongamato ask a good question; where are you going to put the extra florins? Spears? Cav? Do you need the extra florins in the first place? A good way to cap sword at v2 is to play at low fl http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif... But the best way to know the answer is to play game and to see what players actually pick...
I would not cry too much on the Turks in the 5/10k range... There are possible alternatives to hybrid at lower fl level, (why not an all cav army or semi all cav?). And even at v2 JI and Futu are not too bad... And with sword capped to v2, JHI may have an increased life expectancy. A copy paste of ANY army from 15k is not likely to work; true for the turk, and true for any other army.
A few other factions got more problem than the Turks. Russians seem awfully tough. There is just no good inf in sight for them in high if they can't pump up MS enough. A 15k Russian sword v2 max army is in for a lot of trouble... So is a 5K Russian army... But in the latter case the additional edge cav got at low fl give them additional chance (although possibly not enough).
Louis,
hehe i see lahll's 'just say no game' made your list... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
i've had fun at numerous florin levels, 5k all the way to 20k, and that's really what is important to me. imho, enjoyable games come more from 'honest' opponents and teammates, not florin levels.
Well, the theory is that it should go into the spears. The practice is that there is no practice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif But I expect people to buy v2w1 or even v2w2 swords, so not much leftover, and I guess it will be spent on pumped up archers or perhaps on cavs. But having played no such game as yet, it is really difficult to tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Well, would you like to find out?Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Alright, alright, it is not the BEST solution http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif But I agree, we should host such games otherwise it is just a fruitless discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
I think that you need extra florins for real good spears. Decent spears (at 15k) starts at 1100+, but a good one costs 1400+. Of course this is not to say that players will spend the extra money (if there is any) on spears.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
I am not saying that v2 JI or futtuwa is not good, just a v2 CMAA is even better. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif In other words turks lose more than the christian armies if there is v2 cap.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
sure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
Hehe... Sure I would... but not before next monday....
It would be interesting to try to test it keeping in mind a willingness to abuse the system http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
Spending lavishly on spears (v3 order foot here we go!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif... or cav (V2 CK Or 10+ cav armies), or trying v2w3 sword, etc... Being a little extrem, not just trying to have a 'nice, fair and cute' game.
Starting at 15k, to see how extra money get spent.
Might possibly be fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
Louis,
Obviously, we are both in front of computers at the present time. If you can play right now, confirm with a response to this and I(DamnedThingofFear) will go online and wait for you.
EDIT: I am going online right now.
The DamnedThingofFear http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif hello Damned See you online http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif
Obviously, I'm at work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
Good luck and have fun
Louis,
So very true.......Well saidQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
.....Orda
Indeed, the people are what matters. It's impossible to achieve any sort of balance when there are people out there who know only how to exploit the game's imbalances and have made a career out of it. If you want a good balance, you can enforce 15k house rules or play at lower florins. There will be exploiters and people who wont follow your rules, but there's always the BAN and PW options. Ban the bad eggs, and you will be able to play the way you like. IMO It's better than playing at some high florin level just to spite whoever used cav in 1.1 or 2.0, or in order to create a sluggish style where tactical inadequacies are not punished.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
I dont understand players who play 15k with high valor units its naff http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif too high morale and not enoough skill involved, skill comes from risky battles whats risky about having high morale? u can make numerous mistakes and sometimes win, if a player makes mistakes they deserve to lose http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
Stange 8 12.5k wins the battle yes all i see are 15k games, i was told by one enthusiastic 15k peep that only i and very few others 10 infact in the whole community support games under 15k?
Yeah, it appears that if you want a game with skilled people you're going to have to face certain Wolves, Kenchis, and Mizus. Did you expect anything different?
Really, I feel that at 15k you only learn how to collide sword lines and _maybe_ win by flanking. There's no real planning or tactics involved, only going through the motions and imagining you are a general.
This florin story is not over yet, to get to the end we'll have to turn many more pages.
Kongamato i could kiss u lolQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
Finally a peep sees the truth in 15k
Swoooooooooooooooooooooooosh
Fear the wolves