Your reaction to a new "feature"

You can have ZOR or any type of static recruitment system you want if you use HR's, but we have a system that uses HR's to place recruitment regionally, and then additionally thrown into the mix are reforms that use building conditionals (scripted placement of reform buildings) and also a government system that every single unit requires. So every unit has building conditions (available in type1 and 2 but not 3 or 4, for example) also that RTR doesn't have. The problem is related to all three of these things (geographical placement, government conditions, and reform conditions) in addition to occasional other buildings being required for some units (academy complex buildings for some catapults and such and maybe even some big temples or other buildings for some special units).

I know Fourth Age TW has totally removed building conditions in unit recruitment to stop CTD's as a result of their moving to 1.5 also, and I think Iberia TW has also removed them as conditions too because of this issue.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

academy complex buildings for some catapults

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I've not yet seen any artillery unit in EB. Are they implemented yet, so that I can get them if I build an academy (don't think I've built much academies yet), or will they be included in later EB versions?

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

-The problem didn't appear in 1.2, it is the result of a new feature that was added in the 1.5 patch.
-This is the only current CTD we know of in our build.
-If we had unlimited building complexes, we might be able to work it in where we didn't need the building conditionals, and right now blacksnail is working hard to find a way around the problem (and he might be able to - it's still in progress), but I'm just asking would this be a big obstacle if we are unable to figure another way around it.
-You would not need to see the description of it for it to function. One way it might work is to move unit recruitment inside this new 'invisible' building and then use building requirements in it to reference the MIC level you would build. You could see the MIC, and the description, but the units available wouldn't be visible in it (but they have been messed up even in 1.2 in EB, so this is not a new thing that we lose by moving recruitment into the 'CTD building').

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I was just thinking, if you have too many conditionals, break it up into 2 buildings - up to 8 conditionals each - and then make one a requirement for the other... You might have though of this already, of course, but sometimes you can't see the forest behind the trees as they say...

Personally, if the functions of the building could be explained elsewhere it wouldn't be a game killer for me. Definitely an annoyance though.

I just think that one day the mod is going to be "finished and" as much as i admire the goverment system you can't have a ctd button in your finished mod the opposition /critics ´will never let you forget it. So maybe looking at other alternatives is an option

@stalin: meh, a ctd button is not a bug, it's a feature - a patented feature known as "quick quit (TM)" :2thumbsup: Beat that if you can RTR! Muahahahahaha!

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

We could still theoretically (haven't done it yet) retain MIC's - with the descriptions, and having them affect unit recruitment the way the currently do (i.e., you get better units with more advanced MIC's), but the actual recruitment lines would go into this "CTD building" that would be indestructable and always present and have some special icon.

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So if I get this right, the plan is to put recruitment in this new building, but to retain the MIC's so as to put an additional text in each recruitment line "and building present royal barracks" or something of the like. Is that correct? If so, it hasn't been made completely clear whether or not the recruitment "list"(text telling which units can be recuited with the next lvl mic) would been in this new buidling. If that is the case, I think the point has already been made, that we would need an up-to-date recruitment list. Probably wouldn't be possible to have it in-game though.

slider: Well, we would still need the MIC's to act (on the surface) as they did before. So you would have to upgrade them just as before to get the better units, but while the units would in theory come from upgrading your MIC's the recruitment lines would techincally be inside this CTD building, so that you wouldn't crash the MIC by clicking on it or building it or anything like that. This other CTD building would be present always and indestructable.

It may or may not work just like this, but this is one possibility that feedback helps us think about. We would need to get a recruitment list out too that would help everyone understand the system, and maybe we could even stick a dumbed down version of it in the descriptions for the MIC, but it would vary according to province too. And it might not be complete till we get to something like .9 or 1.0 I would think.

If its absolutely necessary I could live with it. But I find it would be a pain to have. Could you make the icon for it a pixel big? Why not just have less than 8 conditions and break up the MIC a bit more? Core Infantry in one, open ranges for calvary and archers in another?

I'd prefer the logo to be something within the style of EB. It'd kind of be an atmosphere killer if it was a completely random logo, like skull or red button or even the windows logo. How about an ancient, EB timeframe, specific cultural looking graveyard? Maybe a tombstone. I believe you said you can make them culture specific right TK? Something subtle like that'd be nicer than a completely out of the blue icon that just throws everything off.

Just a stupid question: can't one have 4 different military building lines that each corresponds to different goverment type, hell then the unit recruitment would not depend on goverment
they'd have to be mutually exclusive and the first building would be the goverment itself ,then the military upgrades on top of that that allow one to train the troops

Do whatever you need to do, I will play it anyway. In fact, I would actually like this. It takes me 5-7 minutes to get from my campaign to the desktop, a CTD building would speed this up a lot.

Honestly won't bother me at all, as long as it was made clear which icon it was (as people have pointed out, the information panel for MICs is messed up and illegible even in the current version, so it's not like we'll miss something in that regard) If it's delaying the release of 0.8, then by all means. I can appreciate how it would be a major irritation for the EB team, though.

Antagonist

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Originally Posted by tk-421

It takes me 5-7 minutes to get from my campaign to the desktop, a CTD building would speed this up a lot.

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Just save and alt-f4 works pretty well.

I rarely try Alt+F4. I prefer the CTD button. :grin:

And if everything else is done (don't know), then this could be clearly labeled when going to download 0.8. As someone said, I think you can tell by this reaction that we in no way want the next release held up by this. Even if popular opinion swings, since only a small amount of EB players have posted here or possibly even seen this thread, then it would probably be better to release the game to get total community response. Once you recieve that, you can go about either deciding to scrap the idea by popular support (doubtful in my opinion) or everything would be gravy. After the release you could still try to find a way around it, and you wouldn't have an anxious crowd to deal with (if that matters in the least, after all this is your mod).

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Originally Posted by Slider6977

And if everything else is done (don't know), then this could be clearly labeled when going to download 0.8. As someone said, I think you can tell by this reaction that we in no way want the next release held up by this. Even if popular opinion swings, since only a small amount of EB players have posted here or possibly even seen this thread, then it would probably be better to release the game to get total community response. Once you recieve that, you can go about either deciding to scrap the idea by popular support (doubtful in my opinion) or everything would be gravy. After the release you could still try to find a way around it, and you wouldn't have an anxious crowd to deal with (if that matters in the least, after all this is your mod).

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So, what you're saying is, EB 0.8 is about to be released.

One moment...

WOOOOOOO!!!!
~:grouphug: ~D ~:joker: ~:thumb: :cheerleader: :elephant::knuddel::dancing:


ehem... carry on.

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Originally Posted by Wonderland

So, what you're saying is, EB 0.8 is about to be released.

One moment...

WOOOOOOO!!!!
~:grouphug: ~D ~:joker: ~:thumb: :cheerleader: :elephant::knuddel::dancing:


ehem... carry on.

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I am not a member so I don't know, I am simply saying that IF the next release is ready and they are just trying to find a way around this "problem" then they may as well release it, listen to the feedback of the community, and possibly even find some other modders out there who know a way around or could help with the problem. As far as I can see, I don't think it could hurt to make the next release, but perhaps they are also still adding content.

As a long time visitor to the Europa Barbarorum website & my FIRST post, I would like to ditto what TK-421 said:

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"Do whatever you need to do, I will play it anyway. In fact, I would actually like this. It takes me 5-7 minutes to get from my campaign to the desktop, a CTD building would speed this up a lot."

Go for it EB!
:2thumbsup:

For me its no problem...Just do a desktop Icon so I know which it is..lol

Yeah, it's no biggie for me either. Do whatever works.

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Originally Posted by Wonderland

So, what you're saying is, EB 0.8 is about to be released.

One moment...

WOOOOOOO!!!!
~:grouphug: ~D ~:joker: ~:thumb: :cheerleader: :elephant::knuddel::dancing:


ehem... carry on.

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Wait one more year for that. ~D

After thinking about it all night, i'm actually starting to LIKE the idea... And i don't see how anybody could find this little button to be a game killer, or even be annoyed by it... When you're finished with the game you can just press it and BAM... Desktop... In fact, i think EB should leave this in for the final build, or at least release an optional patch for people who want to keep it, because the game can take ages to exit now with all the information EB put in, think how long it could take in the final build... ~:eek:

I agree though don't make it a windows logo... I quite like the skull and crossbones idea, or perhaps something more atmospheric, like a broken sword...

Honestly it's not a big deal at all, i know to such a professional team like EB's to have something like this included must seem juvenile but for us plebs who just want to get our grubby hands on 0.8 and aren't braindead/can handle not clicking on the button of death its certainly not a game-killer,

Well good luck on finishing up 0.8, i know i'm excited!

-cel

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Originally Posted by Dayve

I agree though don't make it a windows logo... I quite like the skull and crossbones idea, or perhaps something more atmospheric, like a broken sword...

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I agree to that too.

Not even remotely a game killer for me, but plz don`t make it an ATMOSPHERE killer please by putting a Windows Icon over it...

The broken sword`s idea is good, maybe an assasin`s knife (sica), maybe a crack, cliff, etc. Or just a plain skull will do good. Just don`t put anything that kills the atmosphere.

Thnx.

Icon: Red button
Text: Don't Push

I would actually like a Windows Icon...

Hmm, heres a thought... since people want different logos, and this seems like an actual "feature" that's quite popular, why not release different patches for different icons for the logos? Original could be whatever then patches could be released for a red button, windows logo, something atmospheric or anything else... I guess it could kind of seem redundant to some people, but I think it'd be a nice little EB touch. Options never hurt!

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

I won't bother really. Only if there was some cool naked girl as a picture and I can't see it. :skull:

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One EB "Hot Coffee" Scandal, coming up! :)

Perfect is best (obviously), and it might be a bit pesky getting used to, but unit recruitment in EB is extremely neat and it would be a real shame to lose it.

I don't think it would be really useful to me, as a non-modder, but so long as I save regularly and that town pane scrolling bug is fixed (anyone else get this now and then?) it doesn't seem too bad.

Guys - I was speaking to TA about the problem, and unfortunately the poll addresses only one part of the problem. Here's the other:

Go back and open a game of v.74 and when you right click on the next available MIC level, it will tell which units you'll be able to recruit after it's built. So if it takes 8-20 turns to build, you can evaluate whether or not it's worth it. In a modified system which retains the old "Building Conditional" recruiting, all units will be housed in a single MIC building (the "right-click-and-CTD" structure from your poll) and a SECOND MIC structure will free them up based on Governement types and Hidden Resources (just like the current system).

This "new" MIC structure does not, however, have a left panel information pane which tells you which units it can recruit. So the ONLY way a person will know whether it's worth building MIC Level X in Province Y will be to examine a massive document which lays out exactly which units are recruitable BY FACTION, BY GOVERNMENT, BY PROVINCE, and BY MIC LEVEL. Actually, to call this document "massive" is probably an understatement.

However that's the ONLY way you'll know whether building a particular MIC level is worth doing. Of course, you can always roll the dice and build it and then see what appears in the recruitment screen, but there is no longer an "in-game" mechanism to determine which units are recruitable when you construct "building X".

We could probably use the existing MIC structure, but that would result in a series of levels that can never be "right clicked". The "Second MIC" system provides buildings which can be right clicked (although the information thereby provided isn't worth much), and it places the CTD building in every city at the start of the game, thus eliminating the chance that people will try to build it and inadvertantly right click it in the Build menu.