Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal99
My definition of Heroism:
Someone who makes an act of courage out of good will, even though they didn't have to.
The soldier DIDN'T have to throw himself on a grenade to protect his fellow soldiers, but he did it out of good will, trying to keep his other teammates alive. Thats heroism to me.
That nailed it. The "didn't have to,... but did" bit is the essential element, I think. Yelling: "Grenade" to alert other nearby people satisfies the requirement of doing one's duty; even our negative Nova Scotian will admit that, I'm sure. Smothering the boomski with one's own body in a split-second decision, although arguably inefficient, we must assume a charitable motive.
p.s. Since the 1800's, US doctrine has been the 4 S's in handling prisoners in the field: Search, Silence Safeguard, and Speed. GI's are held responsible for the safe transport of prisoners, regardless of their previous combatant status.
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Heroism means beating some fear that a person feels. People have different fears, therefore it changes from person to person. I don't really think that all people are scared of jumping onto a grenade to save their buddies, and you don't have to call that heroism in order to think highly of the self sacrifice that they made.
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
They have that phrase... 'above and beyond the call of duty'. If that applies to an action, there's a pretty good chance of it being classed as heroic.
Essentially, heroism is putting oneself in harm's way, in order to accomplish some higher objective. The harm can be physical, or mental...
Now, the 'higher objective' changes in this subjective world we live in - these days, saving the life of another is pretty much the only deed that satisfies, whereas there was once a time when one's honour was sufficient to drive one to such an act. And for some people, another's life is not important, it seems.
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888
Big, How is jumping on a grenade to save the very same people who trying to kill you heroic? Personally, I rather die from the grenade then save the POW's..
The simple fact that you would die for a man who just tryed to kill you is the sign of heroism. To care more for those around you and those who have trusted you with their lives is part of a heroic act. Being able to hide his own anger and disgust for the enemy and protect them set him apart from just saving another squadmember. A squadmember your around nearly all day, their nearly family, those men he saved were strangers. Truly a heroic act.
Your right, Redleg isnt BigTex.
I'm BIGTEX
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
#1, well that's nice. It's nice to know you would leave your friend to gret his leg blowed off by a grenade or get killed because "your ass is more important".you real nice Lars, I like to be in the Same Humvee with you in a gunfight in Iraq.:no:
#2. And Oh that's nice. you going to leave your own Mother do Die. That's real nice of a Son.Boy, you such a man,aren't you?
just plain funny.
I got people who think it ok to go into Burning houses to save their pets, and got people who think it's not ok to Save their own Mothers. Boy, and they the same people who think I'm always wrong :no: .
I tell you a example of true Heroism, and since we are up to our own point of views, you can argee,disargee, or just don't say anything.
Octorber 3rd-4th,1993 (I think)
100 Soliders or so went into the town of Modgasdishu,Somilia, to capture several high ranking offciars from this one clan. Well, only was suppose to take 1 or 2 hours,that's it.
But Instead, they was stuck there till the 4th,lost 18 Soliders,2 Black Hawk helicopters, and 500-2000 (numbers are debately) Mitliamen were killed and thousands wounded.
Two Black Hawks Went down. Super Six One and Super Six Four. Super Six One was made to, before it was Overrun. Super Six Four wasn't so Lucky. Two Delta Snipers from a nearby Black Hawk roped down to protect the Surving Crew Members. (Mike Durant and one other guy was still alive I thought). The Two SNipers shot and killed groups of Somilies, with the help of the Crew Member/Members that was still alive. Sadly, it wasn't enough, and they was all Killed, Expect for Mike Durant, who was held hostage for 11-13 days untill the American UN Ambassor threated to Kill "Every Man,Woman,Child,Donkey,Goat,Tree,Bush" in the city.
Now Mind you, the Two Snipers know they proably would have died, but went down anyhow, hoping that the rescure guys could make it in that 15 minute or so time span. They Also known proably, that their bodies would be drag though the streets and muitlaied. They gave their own lives up, and got dragged though the streets, just to save 1 guy.
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888
I got people who think it ok to go into Burning houses to save their pets, and got people who think it's not ok to Save their own Mothers. Boy, and they the same people who think I'm always wrong :no: .
That's because Lars hold a cynical viewpoint -- "my life is always the most important" -- and a valid one by any means, if heartless to the rest of humanity. We have but one life. He just wants his to last as long as possible.
Whereas your indication that you'd rather die than to save another human being because that person is not your friend, is double standard. You judge people differently because of their value to you, not because of themselves; thus, it no longer is so much heroism as cost-benefit calculation.
What's worse?
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
No and no. IMO you shouldn't reward concious stupidity. Which is what throwing yourself on a grenade falls under.
Stupidity maybe, but really, if you survived the grenade and your squad died and you got help later, wouldn't you feel guilty that you let them die? A squad is a group of people who work together as one, teamwork and helping each other out. Thinking about yourself in a time a whole squad will die is just selfish.
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal99
Stupidity maybe, but really, if you survived the grenade and your squad died and you got help later, wouldn't you feel guilty that you let them die? A squad is a group of people who work together as one, teamwork and helping each other out. Thinking about yourself in a time a whole squad will die is just selfish.
You'd think so, but I really doubt Lars would. I just hope to God if I ever have to serve/do serve, that I won't have someone like Lars watching my back.
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice
You'd think so, but I really doubt Lars would. I just hope to God if I ever have to serve/do serve, that I won't have someone like Lars watching my back.
You'd be surprised. In combat, many things change.
I'd much prefer to have a guy like Lars around, knowing clearly what he was and wasn't prepared to do. Much better than someone who's all mouth and trousers.
The former will probably do just what he said, and so is a known quantity. One can make decisions based on that honesty. And I have known a couple of men with his viewpoint that when the bullets were flying, excelled expectations in courage.
The latter man may either get you all killed by trying to be a hero or discover that combat is actually quite frightening and do the barest minimum necessary to keep himself alive. The man who swore to you that he'd cover your back might just be high-tailing it.
Until one has been there, it is really quite difficult to know which way you will go. And sometimes, the stress of battle can affect the mind so that the personality one had come to rely on changes. I once saw one of the bravest men I ever knew suddenly give up and sit weeping in the middle of the road. The incident that set this off was pretty minor compared to many we had gone through.
I still consider him one of the bravest men I ever knew - perhaps even more so because of his sudden humanity.
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
You'd be surprised. In combat, many things change.
I'd much prefer to have a guy like Lars around, knowing clearly what he was and wasn't prepared to do. Much better than someone who's all mouth and trousers.
The former will probably do just what he said, and so is a known quantity. One can make decisions based on that honesty. And I have known a couple of men with his viewpoint that when the bullets were flying, excelled expectations in courage.
exactly... (phrased much better than i ever could :2thumbsup: )
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal99
Stupidity maybe, but really, if you survived the grenade and your squad died and you got help later, wouldn't you feel guilty that you let them die? A squad is a group of people who work together as one, teamwork and helping each other out. Thinking about yourself in a time a whole squad will die is just selfish.
if you survived the grenade and the rest of the squad had not that just means you were lucky and they were not....I would be sad that my team mates had died but I certainly wouldn´t wish I had died in their place.
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
A hero is a person who chooses to place himself in danger for the greater good.
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey_Fox
A hero is a person who chooses to place himself in danger for the greater good.
With the caveat "as seen by a specific community which feels served by that greater good".
Islamic suicide bombers are seen as heroes by their community, for example.
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
But that's always been the case, hasn't it?
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888
#1, well that's nice. It's nice to know you would leave your friend to gret his leg blowed off by a grenade or get killed because "your ass is more important".you real nice Lars, I like to be in the Same Humvee with you in a gunfight in Iraq.:no:
Your assuming that any squad mates I have would be my friends. Or at least people I don't hate. With my personality that's a tall order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888
#2. And Oh that's nice. you going to leave your own Mother do Die. That's real nice of a Son.Boy, you such a man,aren't you?
You realize that in fires it's smoke not flames that kill you. You suffocate rather than burn up. Suffocation doesn't take long either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal99
Stupidity maybe, but really, if you survived the grenade and your squad died and you got help later, wouldn't you feel guilty that you let them die? A squad is a group of people who work together as one, teamwork and helping each other out. Thinking about yourself in a time a whole squad will die is just selfish.
No. I have a remarkable ability to not feel guilt. That and chance or luck rules our lives as much as our concious decisions. That it would be completly random if the greande landed next to me or the other guy. That's life, you or I can't change it.
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
Your assuming that any squad mates I have would be my friends. Or at least people I don't hate. With my personality that's a tall order.
You realize that in fires it's smoke not flames that kill you. You suffocate rather than burn up. Suffocation doesn't take long either.
No. I have a remarkable ability to not feel guilt. That and chance or luck rules our lives as much as our concious decisions. That it would be completly random if the greande landed next to me or the other guy. That's life, you or I can't change it.
#1, that your own opinion
#2, Really? I was so incompent of learning that when I was a 6 year old kid during Fire Prevention class:no:
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
No. I have a remarkable ability to not feel guilt. That and chance or luck rules our lives as much as our concious decisions. That it would be completly random if the greande landed next to me or the other guy. That's life, you or I can't change it.
You should be very careful of boasting about such an ability/trait. The inability to feel guilt is very similiar to the inablity to feel remorse about one's actions. This particlur trait is not something to be proud of, since it is basically an anti-social personality trait, one that is linked to self-destructive behavior (along with destructive behavior toward others).
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
You should be very careful of boasting about such an ability/trait. The inability to feel guilt is very similiar to the inablity to feel remorse about one's actions. This particlur trait is not something to be proud of, since it is basically an anti-social personality trait, one that is linked to self-destructive behavior (along with destructive behavior toward others).
Not boasting. However it is true. And while I am anti-social it's more due to shiness and the anxeity it creates in social situations. I can't call people on the phone because of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888
#1, that your own opinion
Based on experience. The majority of people I meet I wouldn't whiz on if they were on fire.
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
so Lars, you so AntiSocial, You praticlly won't save anyone,even your own Mother (ironic eh) unless you liek them or had a 50/50 chance of getting out,because you that Anti-Social? I'll stop there..
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
While self-sacrifice, or the risk thereof, can be a great indicator of heroism, I don't think it's a necessary part of the definition. Basically, I think a hero is someone who demonstrates the values of their culture in a way that excels the behavior of their peers. Greek heroes were those of the highest martial and athletic ability, and seen as favored by the gods. Early Christian heroes were those who eschewed violence completely and were willing to face torture and death without complaint. Modern American heroes tend to be those who look out for the underdog, who show extraordinary levels of determination and resourcefulness, who are optimistic, etc. This could be a soldier on the battlefield, or a teacher in a high school. A hero is a person who exemplifies what we all wish we were. They take the things we hold important to a level beyond expectations. They make abstract values concrete in the form of an individual person.
Ajax
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888
so Lars, you so AntiSocial, You praticlly won't save anyone,even your own Mother (ironic eh) unless you liek them or had a 50/50 chance of getting out,because you that Anti-Social? I'll stop there..
why is that anti-social? i would never attempt to rescue someone if there was more than a 50/50 chance of getting out... :2thumbsup:
Re: How do you Define Heroism?
Scurvy, Please re-Read my Post again. I did not say that is Anti-Social.
