Re: Surprising AI actions ?
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Originally Posted by Tony Furze
However, why does the AI shy away from making ships? And how does it get so big (eg as the French) without trade?
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Originally Posted by Innocentius
The French (and Egyptian) AI is probably the worst. Their homelands are so fertile than they can easily build up rather big stacks without upgrading anything. And they don't just do that, they recruit cheap troops (FS, MS, Handgunners etc) in huuuge quantities. When their over-sized crap armies march into the lands of other AI faction, the AI withdraws as it is outnumbered. This makes the French almost unbeatable by the AI (untill they get too big, get excommunicated and fall into civil war and mass re-emergances), but very easy to beat as the player (lots of crap troops dying at your hands give you great generals and high-valour troops).
Precisely. The income of a faction's starting lands is often in direct proportion to how powerful it becomes -- the Almohads and Spanish are primary examples of this as well. In a way, it's an almost-perfect representation of the classic medieval maxim "Land = Money = Power". ~;)
In addition, I also believe the French have their standard AI behavior set to "aggressive", which favors them early on as well. I'm not sure if this applies to the Eggies as well, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
Thanks, Martok.
But then...whats those messages about technological advancements and greatest military might by the AI factions? Are they a bluff or historically related or is the AI very broad in its definition of what constitutes "great" and "advancement"?
I ve even seen the AI as the Italians build up an empire completely without ships...
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
For me, the most surprising thing I've seen was when I started a Danish campaing and invaded Sweden the second turn w/ one unit of archers and the king. The first surprise was that the swedes stayed to fight. But then, the battle was just odd. The map is entirely flat w/ a few small forest. The enemy general is way at the back in a forest and the second unit is hidden. I march the RK's in a straight line towards the general, but stay a little back. I march my archers way out to the left of the RK's and put them a little ahead of pace. I get towards the back and still the second unit is hidden, so I figure he's close to the general. Sure enough, as the archers close in on the side of the general to get in shooting range, the second unit of vikes comes bursting out of the forest towards the archers. This is where I am surprised by the AI. Instead of going out w/ both of their units, the general stays in the forest and lets the one unit try to take on both of my units by itself. W/ two on one, its shooting fish in a barrel. If he charges the archers, the RK's will sweep in behind and crush the unit. If he goes for the RK's, I can have the knights run away while the archers continue to shoot him up. He compromised by hesitating and going for both units alternately while getting showered by arrows, until there was about half the unit left. Finally he goes for the archers and the RK's routed him without a loss. Drew the general out w/ arrows and rinsed and repeated.
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Furze
Thanks, Martok.
But then...whats those messages about technological advancements and greatest military might by the AI factions? Are they a bluff or historically related or is the AI very broad in its definition of what constitutes "great" and "advancement"?
I ve even seen the AI as the Italians build up an empire completely without ships...
I think those message are based on "simple" figures. The wealthiest is probably the one with the greatest basic income (not considering the profit, just the basic income), military might is probably based ont he number of soldiers: for instance, in the viking campaign, you are rapidly told that the mercians have the mightest army. But their stacks are usually half peasants. so if they attack you with one stack, you'll have to deal with 2 archers, 2 fyrds, 1 medium cav and one or to Huscarles. Strart routing those and the battel is won. If he attacks you with 2 or 3 stacks, that's different though.
I think it is neither bluff, nor historically oriented (excpet for the very first, of course), but is not necessarily a "good" measure which brings the message.
I don't know what the AI considers when speaking of tech development. I'm always surprised when it gives a faction name about this...
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
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Originally Posted by Caerfanan
(..) for instance, in the viking campaign, you are rapidly told that the mercians have the mightest army. But their stacks are usually half peasants.
Exactly. In regular MTW it is usually the Germans or French who get the first mention because of their bloated peasant armies.
I believe the technology warning is more serious though, because it refers to a superior type of building being finished by another faction and hence reflects both the quality of their troops and their general development.
I can't vouch for this, but I think such factions are usually among the last (and toughest) to beat in your campaign.
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
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Originally Posted by Adrian II
Exactly. In regular MTW it is usually the Germans or French who get the first mention because of their bloated peasant armies.
I believe the technology warning is more serious though, because it refers to a superior type of building being finished by another faction and hence reflects both the quality of their troops and their general development.
I can't vouch for this, but I think such factions are usually among the last (and toughest) to beat in your campaign.
I would say so. Anyone knows exactly what elects a faction as the most advanced?
For instance, imagine you have 20 provinces. 1 completly overbuilt and already building space knights with jedi laserswords, and the 19 others with absolutely nothing. Do you think it will take:
- the best province
- an average
- or... maybe each building give some "technology" points, and the one with the greatets number wins?
Oooh the headache! :sweatdrop:
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
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Originally Posted by Caerfanan
I would say so. Anyone knows exactly what elects a faction as the most advanced?
Good question. We need someone who can break that code.
Mod alert! :help:
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caerfanan
I would say so. Anyone knows exactly what elects a faction as the most advanced?
I'm not sure, but to me it seems to be whatever faction that has the most buildings, quite simply. Or it could be whatever faction that has the largest amount of "unnecessary" buildings (Chancellary and so on).
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
why do you dislike the chancellary? it provides one of the more useful titles IMHO because have you ever tried to push that 7-star-general-governor to 8 by winning regular battles? I have and am most relieved that I just have to build and wait a little instead of steadily trying adventurous battles to get him that boost.
but it can't be the total number of buildings, nor can it be the most title-related stuff. I got the message as the English in Late (MedMod) and certainly didn't have most buildings overall, nor did I have the most title-related ones (these definitely had the HRE).
I'm more prone to Adrian II's thought that it is attributed to a faction which has just completed some "superior type of building", because when I got the message in my example I had just completed the Master Bowyer in Wessex (giving me access to English longbowmen :smash:), and there is a good reason to assume that it was the first Master Bowyer on the map
....
well thinking of it it appears to me that if a faction completes a building no one else yet has it is rewarded with being considered as "most advanced". ? thoughts?
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
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Originally Posted by Deus ret.
I'm more prone to Adrian II's thought that it is attributed to a faction which has just completed some "superior type of building", because when I got the message in my example I had just completed the Master Bowyer in Wessex (giving me access to English longbowmen :smash:), and there is a good reason to assume that it was the first Master Bowyer on the map
....
well thinking of it it appears to me that if a faction completes a building no one else yet has it is rewarded with being considered as "most advanced". ? thoughts?
Yes, I've always tended to go with that theory as well. I know I usually get that message whenever I've completed my Grand Mosque in Egypt, when I finish building a Fortress, etc. I think you and Adrian II have hit the nail on the head. :yes:
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
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Originally Posted by Deus ret.
have you ever tried to push that 7-star-general-governor to 8 by winning regular battles?
You'll need 128 victories (net) to get him the 8th star, which should, by rights give you the 100% victory condition first... unless he's also placed in charge of your siege battles as well, making two battles per territory. (But you knew that, anyway)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus ret.
well thinking of it it appears to me that if a faction completes a building no one else yet has it is rewarded with being considered as "most advanced". ? thoughts?
I'd tend to agree with that, except for the fact that the message crops up relatively infrequently, despite the sheer number of opportunities for factions to be the first to get a specific building type.
Also, if exclusivity of a building type was all that mattered, then factions could never 'take turns' at being the most advanced (which tends to be the case) because they aren't able to contruct the faith-specific buildings which another faction posesses.
By rights, in MTW:VI, Early, the Byz should get it on turn one, on account of being the only faction with a Citadel.
Now, if it were only the level of sophistication of the most advanced building on the entire map that was under consideration then it would be a lonnnnnnng time before any other faction would surpass that but I often find the Eggies or the HRE get credited relatively soon, so it cannot be that, either.
The AI auto-build sequence assures that nearly everyone else gets Watch towers, Inn, Town Watch, Bowmaker, Spearmaker, 20% farms, Horse Farmer more or less in synchrony with each other, so the next message probably won't trigger until there is some opportunity for divergence, such as just after the first Keeps are completed (choice of Trading Post, Workshops, religious buildings, shipwright, etc), or at least until one of them builds something the Byz don't have yet.
I would also agree with a modified version of what Innocentius said : - I think it is whichever faction has the highest count of buildings in a single province, regardless of the level of sophistication of the buildings involved and also regardless of the total building count across all owned provinces.
I've had "largest armies" and "highest income" loads of times in campaigns but I've only ever had the "most advanced" message once and that was quite recently. The Eggies had multiple provinces with just a Fort, BFs and a Master Horse Breeder in them. I had no Master Horse breeders anywhere but had 17 buildings in my capital...
I'm not entirely sure if the message even coincided with completion of the latest build, oddly enough.
I suppose that, when provinces outside your sphere of influence are being repeatedly trashed by back-and-forth wars, there are opportunities for other factions to be 'regressed' in technology level, such that you go into the lead without having built anything, of late, so it could have been that.
It's hard to make worthwhile observations to back up either of the 'building count' or 'first of type' hypotheses because of concentrating on the campaign too much to be bothered keeping track of who is currently most advanced, or which king just snuffed it and where their heir just got teleported to (so as to identify capital provinces) and having enough agents in all the right places to assess who has what, simultaneously.
EYG
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
You'll need 128 victories (net) to get him the 8th star, which should, by rights give you the 100% victory condition first... unless he's also placed in charge of your siege battles as well, making two battles per territory. (But you knew that, anyway)
actually I didn't know that but....hey, thanks! at least I know now just HOW impossible it is to get him that 8th star, and from this day on I'll venture to get the command-related buildings even sooner.
on a side note, isn't the likelihood of being awarded a command star also tied to the circumstances of a battle (like winning an even battle number-wise as the attacker compared to successfully defending with anumerical advantage etc.) or am I confusing something here?
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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
I would also agree with a modified version of what Innocentius said : - I think it is whichever faction has the highest count of buildings in a single province, regardless of the level of sophistication of the buildings involved and also regardless of the total building count across all owned provinces.
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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Now, if it were only the level of sophistication of the most advanced building on the entire map that was under consideration
I didn't mean the most advanced building overall but rather category-wise. as you said, the message comes up rather infrequently, and since the HRE or Eggies tend to get it rather soon in early this should suggest that they built something the Byz didn't have in their capital yet (which, with exception to the citadel, isn't that greatly developed at the start of the game IIRC).
of course you're right: the downside to this approach is that the message theoretically should show up quite often in the early stages of a game (as long as there is still a lot of room for quick variation, esp. for the player and I get it for my faction veeeery seldomly) and then appear more and more seldomly.
so is it tied to the province with most buildings/upgrades overall? might well be, but I'm quite sure that my example wouldn't fit in there - Wessex is a decent province in MedMod/Late, but certainly not the one with most buildings in the beginning (and I got the message on turn 8 upon the completion of the Master Bowyer, so there was ample time for other contendinf provinces to build something crappy and steal the fame again)
maybe the whole discussion is somewhat superflous since those messages don't seem to have too much of an effect in-game? some people say they add to your influence but honestly I never noticed that.
edit: I just encountered the message again in my current MedMod/HRE campaign where it was awarded to a Byz province. although I didn't take the time to figure out what province could have been meant I'll do it tomorrow and hopefully come up with something empirical.
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
Hi Deus,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus ret.
actually I didn't know that but....hey, thanks! at least I know now just HOW impossible it is to get him that 8th star, and from this day on I'll venture to get the command-related buildings even sooner.
In Shogun, each general's parchment held a tally of victories and defeats, so the geometric relationship was made obvious (0,1,2,4,8,16,32...). The tally is out of the user's sight in MTW but is, no doubt, still being tracked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus ret.
on a side note, isn't the likelihood of being awarded a command star also tied to the circumstances of a battle (like winning an even battle number-wise as the attacker compared to successfully defending with anumerical advantage etc.) or am I confusing something here?
Gaining a star or not probably has more to do with the general's tally reaching the next highest milestone. Casual obvservation alone would give all the appearance of "sometimes an extra star, sometimes not" which naturally leads to assumptions about it being to do with the numbers ratio or the way you fought that battle.
I've had occasional frustrations where, for example, I invade with a 1* general and the AI either makes for the castle or evacuates the province, thus avoiding the 3D battle. Technically, this is a victory but my general doesn't gain his second star. Likewise, if I elect to auto-calc and I win, there's no promotion for him...
It's a pity that, should you defeat a 5* enemy general, using a 1* general, similar troop numbers and your own skills, your general isn't immediately elevated to 5* as well. Perhaps that sort of thing could make things too easy for the player, in the long run?
On the other hand, it's not unusual to see 8* Byz generals under siege, so if the AI benefitted from this rule as well, high-star ratings would spread like a disease... :laugh4:
Winning when the numerical odds are sufficiently against you is what causes the "Skilled attacker", "Skilled defender", "Skilled siege attacker/defender" virtues and those do give you temporary extra command stars, under the appropriate circumstances.
I can't be totally certain but these may be conditional upon the kill ratio, in addition to the successful outcome.
EYG
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
Whoa. Some people did some posting this WE!!!
Ahem... :book: :book: :book:
OK. So I figure that what elects a faction to the "most advanced" relies one one province only? In that case, it should be something like a number of points per building, or basically a number of constructions.
Speaking of "when the info appears", I think that the game gives one time the military award, next the money, next the tech, and on award every three to four turns. I noticed on M2TW (which crashes too often, Rome is actualy more beautiful and is not lagging and crashing, my poor 3D graphic card is overwhelmed) that they give alle the stats every turn. So What I think on the frequence of appearance is that it's not linked to some event.
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
It's a pity that, should you defeat a 5* enemy general, using a 1* general, similar troop numbers and your own skills, your general isn't immediately elevated to 5* as well. Perhaps that sort of thing could make things too easy for the player, in the long run?
That's one thing I would have liked to have seen MTW do differently. After all, if a green assassin can gain 3 stars from killing a king on his very first mission (which I've seen happen), why can't a general do the same when defeating a superior commander?
Of course, I do think there has to be limits. I don't think an untried 2-star general should, after beating a 9-star commander, suddenly gain another 7 ranks and become a 9-star himself. I do believe that moving up to a 4-star general (instead of just a 3-star) wouldn't be out of line, however.
Perhaps a general would advance sooner than he otherwise might? Example: Say a 4-star general has 9 victories so far in his career, so normally he wouldn't get his 5th star until he'd won another 7 victories (5 stars = 16 victories). However, he then defeats a 7-star general in his next battle. As a result, he now gets "promoted" to 5 stars right away, as opposed having to win 6 more battles before getting his next command star.
Hmm. That seems a little complicated, now that I actually write itout. :inquisitive: Ah well, not that it matters anyway. I think the command progression is hard-coded and can't be altered regardless, so it's probably a moot point. :smash:
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
Speaking of earning command stars and such...Recently in my Swedish campaign (see Pics & History of your Empire-thread) I had a battle between my 4-star general and the Polish 8-star king. The battle ended up in a massive defeat for the Poles with about 1700 of their troops lost, and about 250 of mine. When I saw the general after the battle, he had 6 stars...
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
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Originally Posted by Innocentius
Speaking of earning command stars and such...Recently in my Swedish campaign (see Pics & History of your Empire-thread) I had a battle between my 4-star general and the Polish 8-star king. The battle ended up in a massive defeat for the Poles with about 1700 of their troops lost, and about 250 of mine. When I saw the general after the battle, he had 6 stars...
I've seen that happen on occasion. It seems to occur when one of my generals is granted a star for his next rank (e.g., a general getting his 3rd star after winning his 4th battle) AND at the same time is awarded an extra star for Skilled Defender/Attacker.
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
He got a virtue like skilled attacker or defender. Something like that probably.
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Innocentius
Speaking of earning command stars and such...Recently in my Swedish campaign (see Pics & History of your Empire-thread) I had a battle between my 4-star general and the Polish 8-star king. The battle ended up in a massive defeat for the Poles with about 1700 of their troops lost, and about 250 of mine. When I saw the general after the battle, he had 6 stars...
Which one? Yours or the Polish?
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
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Originally Posted by Caerfanan
Which one? Yours or the Polish?
My general. The unfortunate Polish King was shot down pretty immediately:beam:
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
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Originally Posted by Innocentius
My general. The unfortunate Polish King was shot down pretty immediately:beam:
OK, thanks. Poor king! :charge:
So this 2 stars improvement should come from a bonus star from a virtue and a new level of commandship due to a new victory. Or two bonuses coming from virtues...
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
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Originally Posted by Martok
I've seen that happen on occasion. It seems to occur when one of my generals is granted a star for his next rank (e.g., a general getting his 3rd star after winning his 4th battle) AND at the same time is awarded an extra star for Skilled Defender/Attacker.
I don't believe a star as such is awarded for Skiiled Attacker. It is conditional, i.e. it is operative only if your general is in enemy territory in the role of attacker.
You can easily test this for yourself in a game. Move a Skilled Attacker (or Expert Attacker or Specialist Attacker) into enemy territory and you will see his number of stars rise. Put him back and the amount of stars is back to normal.
So your general was probably awarded his 'conditional' second star because (and as long as) he was in enemy territory (a siege most probably).
Re: Surprising AI actions ?
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Originally Posted by Adrian II
So your general was probably awarded his 'conditional' second star because (and as long as) he was in enemy territory (a siege most probably).
Yeah, that's what I was getting at actually. My bad for not clarifying my earlier point. :oops:
