"Hardcore PC gaming is dying"

You're not the only one, doc, who thinks the quality of movies has gone down. I've stopped watching new(er) movies years ago, 'cause there's serious crap being released. There's always crap movies or products being released throughout time, but it's never been so bad as for a couple years. Simple ****** up entertainment for the simple masses who desire instant easy gratification.


What I read here, and have noticed myself, is that with games it's more or less the same. Pfff, I hardly look at newer games nowadays 'cause I think it's not even worth the look, except for some exceptional titles/series like Half-Life 2 (old), Far Cry (old), TW series (going down the drain), KotOR series (decent, still waiting for new one), Jade Empire (just fresh for PC), Crysis (this year and setting new graphics standard, gameplay decent).... and some really old games, and old-school console ones.

Heck, if you're an old-school gamer who likes quality sometimes you're better off with an old SNES or NES or something :P

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"Hardcore PC gaming is dying"

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Hope not, I just spent £1100 on a new pc.

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Even the MMO community is going down the tubes. Its all going the way of WoW, crap graphics, no story line, no pvp...its all about carebear casuals who end up devoting more and more time in little carebear worlds... The great genre of Warhammer is, I fear, going to fall victim to this when its released. Its going to be nothing more than a gradually progressive and dumbed down to wow standards FPS(for pvp) and carebear extreme (for pve).

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Whats wrong with being a Carebear, they pay for the priviledge so they can do whatever they like.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

Not sure what the thread title is trying to say.

Does it mean that PC-exclusive (ie: not console ports) games are dying? If so, they aren't dying. They are already dead. They died 2 or 3 years ago.

If they are saying PC games that require hardcore game players to enjoy are dying - no they aren't. They were never alive to begin with. The only hardcore PC game that I know exists is Shadowbane. As far as I can tell, for the most part hardcore PC games do not exist and never have.

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I disagree hardcore gaming did exist once before with older games such as AoE2 or Stronghold, and for FPS Doom and Duke Nukem, while Dos has older games like exile that i still know alot of people play.

I mean, I myself still play Duke Nukem and AoE2 and exile on a daily basis but all my friend have transitioned into the more expensive areas of gaming.

Though the older hardcore gaming as most older players knew it is dying off we now have games like Company of Heroes and WoW were people play for graphics or textures or sound and not exactly the story or entertainment. A lot of my friends who used to play company of heroes got bored because even with online play there isn't enough replay value. but thats what I think...

While I accept that the TW series has lost everything that made it unique (it wont be long till alot of rts games come out using the same idea), it's MOD community is huge and dedicated, NTW reinvented MP for m, EB, ATW and RTR gave me a completley new game. So perhaps in the furture, pc communities will become more dependant upon comunity creations, that on new Vanilla products.

"Hardcore" PC gaming is definitely worse for the wear, I agree wholeheartedly. There are a number of indicators in my view, for example the lack of real honest to god sim-type games, especially flight sims, real flight sims and not arcade-fest deals like all of those WWII deals lately. Any sim for that matter. The only thing that seems to be reasonably close that I can see lately is that Silent Service 4 game that was just released. I had high hopes for that Battlestations Midway game, until I tried it and found that it wasn't a simulation at all, more like a ... 'naval FPS'.

I guess I just equate "hardcore" with thinking games, complicated strategy, and/or realistic mechanics/portrayals. Dumbing down games and interfaces does NOT improve games, IMO. Making it so I have to "press less buttons" or "memories fewer key commands" does not improve a game. Hiding or obscuring game mechanics, esp. in stuff like D20-based RPGs, so that "i dont hav 2 wory about dum math n numbrs lol" is not an improvement.

In terms of what to blame for this, I think there are a number of things, but a few stand to the forefront in my mind. First, the fact that many games are developed for both PC and one or more consoles. Deus Ex 2, Oblivion, Thief 3, etc... all games that suffered greatly because they were developed with the express intent of working on both PC and console (I won't get into nitpicking why exactly these sucked, there were numerous different reasons for each one, but the point here is dual console/pc ports generally suffer). It's often argued that games have been "dumbed down" over the past years. I submit that this is both true and not true. One only needs to look at examples like from Morrowind to Oblivion to see an example of this, or look to Civ4 to see a counterexample. The other big point is that publisher marketing seems to think that doing whatever they can with their product to aim it at the "casual" gamer will garner more sales. This may be true or it may not be, I've never seen any hard data that supports this.

Last thing guys, MMOs are a blight. MMO does NOT equal "hardcore", period, hardcore applies to any game. Most WoW players are 'casual' players. And please spare me the "well my MMO, (name of mmo here), is hardkore lole". Hardcore was/is the guys who played Baldur's Gate and double-checked the game's D20 rule accuracy against their rulebooks and did their own math. Hardcore is the people who set up their computers to look like plane cockpits and buy $300 joysticks (I have the Cougar HOTAS, but not the flight setup thing). Hardcore is the "you run faster with the knife" people.

Respectfully

:bow:

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If some hardcore gamer got into WoW, they probably won't be buying that many new games and instead focusing on finishing that 1,000,000th time running Molten Core instead.

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Well I got into MTW and then VI and they were all I played or bought for 5 years :oops:

Everybody has his/het own definition of hardcore. Looking at the original thread, the term just seems to refer to people willing to spend a lot of money on PC upgrades, for whatever reason.

Smaller 'hardcore' strategy games like galciv 2 or EUIII seem to finding their own niche market these days, but the amount of big budget titles being released is shrinking and those that get realesed are often derivatuive (another WWII RTS, game X in the series, another FPS,...), new, original games are getting rare (just like the movies).

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Last thing guys, MMOs are a blight. MMO does NOT equal "hardcore", period, hardcore applies to any game. Most WoW players are 'casual' players. And please spare me the "well my MMO, (name of mmo here), is hardkore lole". Hardcore was/is the guys who played Baldur's Gate and double-checked the game's D20 rule accuracy against their rulebooks and did their own math. Hardcore is the people who set up their computers to look like plane cockpits and buy $300 joysticks (I have the Cougar HOTAS, but not the flight setup thing). Hardcore is the "you run faster with the knife" people.

:bow:

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Obviously you fail to know what you're talking about, daoc from the beginning had been considered and categorized as 'the' difficult mmo, the only one. Do you have any idea the exterior tools made to support the game, template calculators, ra calcs, etc. The actual complex dmg tables, resistances etc... Not to mention its longevity as a realm vs realm vs realm basis for constant, consistent and total pvp which group dynamics, support, dmg's and their mitigating factors that have to considered. Not to mention that most people run at least 2 or three computers to play on anything but classic and even classic takes more than one computer do anything non pvp. WoW which everyone measures by is paper rock scissors in a comic book.

so spare me the tweekers fast twitch fps mindset...

respectfully...

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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus

Obviously you fail to know what you're talking about, daoc from the beginning had been considered and categorized as 'the' difficult mmo, the only one. Do you have any idea the exterior tools made to support the game, template calculators, ra calcs, etc. The actual complex dmg tables, resistances etc... Not to mention its longevity as a realm vs realm vs realm basis for constant, consistent and total pvp which group dynamics, support, dmg's and their mitigating factors that have to considered. Not to mention that most people run at least 2 or three computers to play on anything but classic and even classic takes more than one computer do anything non pvp. WoW which everyone measures by is paper rock scissors in a comic book.

so spare me the tweekers fast twitch fps mindset...

respectfully...

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Thanks for not reading what I posted, your "scathing" rebuttal is noted and appreciated.

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MMO does NOT equal "hardcore", period, hardcore applies to any game.

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Emphasis underlined. As for your DAOC argument, that's great, there are other MMOs that people have done the exact same thing for. Just because you obviously like it and provided your own weak opinion, doesn't make it "more difficult, the difficult one" out of the list, so please spare me your sanctimonious attitude. MMOs still suck, for the record.

The thing is, surveys and polls and statisticians are ignoring the MMO player base most of which if the MMO is old enough, is hardcore. Not one very active player on Ultima, Everquest, Dark Ages of Camelot, and other well known old MMOs are 'casual' gamers. Even WoW will become solely for hardcore players eventually. Once it sells its 6th or 7th expansion, a new player to the game will have no idea what to do because everyone is either trying to get to the new level cap or farming for the best items or getting their 15th new character outfitted with the best gear to the level cap.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

As for your DAOC argument, that's great, there are other MMOs that people have done the exact same thing for.

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wrong...daoc has unique aspects, trust me, I'm rather informed in the marketplace.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Just because you obviously like it and provided your own weak opinion, doesn't make it "more difficult, the difficult one" out of the list, so please spare me your sanctimonious attitude. MMOs still suck, for the record.

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Actually it wasn't me stating that, it was and has been noted by many companies including microsoft. What made Daoc different is that it played to the model of difficulty as their product of commerce and did not make commercialization the sole goal and end all sum game of their product. They knew that if the built a genre a certain way, the players for that niche would come and stay, and they have. So assert your weak opinions on somebody else, where you can get away with them. Play tested and Beta'd many a game...so at least my opinion is informed.


Here we are on TW forum where we have to beg for decent MP and daoc is the game that caters to the hardcore MP crowd the most, group, team, army (zerg) combat open ended in objectives and purpose.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Emphasis underlined.

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If that was true, than this...

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Hardcore is the people who set up their computers to look like plane cockpits and buy $300 joysticks (I have the Cougar HOTAS, but not the flight setup thing). Hardcore is the "you run faster with the knife" people..

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or this

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Originally Posted by Whacker

mmo's still suck.

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Wouldn't have made its way into your argument. You were specifically identified as exclusionary as I was not, I was only stating on mmo's and the same effect felt in that genre, so please, spare me your uninformed bias opinion.

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Originally Posted by Xdeathfire

Not one very active player on Ultima, Everquest, Dark Ages of Camelot, and other well known old MMOs are 'casual' gamers.

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Yeah, met very few Daoc players that you could call casual. Casuals have their niche in each, but not the majority in Daoc.

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Originally Posted by Xdeathfire

Once it sells its 6th or 7th expansion, a new player to the game will have no idea what to do because everyone is either trying to get to the new level cap or farming for the best items or getting their 15th new character outfitted with the best gear to the level cap.

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DAOC has for the most part minimized the effect with a few exceptions, that being the end game results in massive RvR combat and not end game pve raiding. It has both, but the end game and consequences are pvp, not carebear.

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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus

wrong...daoc has unique aspects, trust me, I'm rather informed in the marketplace.

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Bull, there's no difference. As for this...

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Actually it wasn't me stating that, it was and has been noted by many companies including microsoft. What made Daoc different is that it played to the model of difficulty as their product of commerce and did not make commercialization the sole goal and end all sum game of their product. They knew that if the built a genre a certain way, the players for that niche would come and stay, and they have. So assert your weak opinions on somebody else, where you can get away with them. Play tested and Beta'd many a game...so at least my opinion is informed.

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Show me some evidence then, instead of soapboxing. Quoting "planetcamelot" or whatever the main fan sites with "zomgthisisthegreatest" crap doesn't count, show me something from a nonbiased source. Better yet, show me several sources, seeing how you've claimed this is, in short, "the one".

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Here we are on TW forum where we have to beg for decent MP and daoc is the game that caters to the hardcore MP crowd the most, group, team, army (zerg) combat open ended in objectives and purpose.

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Not going to get any disagreement from me here on the TW and MP part.

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Wouldn't have made its way into your argument. You were specifically identified as exclusionary as I was not, I was only stating on mmo's and the same effect felt in that genre, so please, spare me your uninformed bias opinion.

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You took and read my post wrong, and connected certain statements that were not meant to be connected as I clearly indicated above. And at least I can admit that I'm biased against MMOs, Mr. Fanboy.


For the record, my post was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek and not malicious at all, so I do apologize it it was taken this way. On the other hand, I found it somewhat amusing seeing that you've signed the CoH and bear the badge, as quite a bit of your responses so far clearly violate that code and it's intent twenty ways from Sunday.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Show me some evidence then, instead of soapboxing. Quoting "planetcamelot" or whatever the main fan sites with "zomgthisisthegreatest" crap doesn't count, show me something from a nonbiased source. Better yet, show me several sources, seeing how you've claimed this is, in short, "the one".

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Actually, your google-fu must be weak if you can't find outside of daocrus.com or welovedaocforrealz.com, I'll give you a chance to find some.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

You took and read my post wrong, and connected certain statements that were not meant to be connected as I clearly indicated above. And at least I can admit that I'm biased against MMOs, Mr. Fanboy.

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Fanboy? and please its Fanboi...and no. I don't even play any mmo's atm besides Beta testing one part time. I did play a pirates one that was free for about 2 weeks, but it was a rather weak model.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

On the other hand, I found it somewhat amusing seeing that you've signed the CoH and bear the badge, as quite a bit of your responses so far clearly violate that code and it's intent twenty ways from Sunday.

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I was responding to the vile that was not phrased or characterized in any way tongue in cheek. You're the one who jumped on mmo's like a fat lady at the dessert bar 5 mins to close. I won't hide behind my pledge to CoH and retract my statement's tone. I believe, in playing with many of those CoH, way before you became an Orgah, that part of CoH is the display of integrity in action and thought. CoH does not mean stand down to a vile post that attempts to vilify or characterize your statements in an untrue manner....

Whacker and ShadeHonestus: please take it to PMs. I doubt anyone else wants to read this kind of bad tempered exchange. :no:

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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus

Actually, your google-fu must be weak if you can't find outside of daocrus.com or welovedaocforrealz.com, I'll give you a chance to find some.

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Mainly because I don't really care enough to, the burden of proof is on you mate.

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I was responding to the vile that was not phrased or characterized in any way tongue in cheek. You're the one who jumped on mmo's like a fat lady at the dessert bar 5 mins to close. I won't hide behind my pledge to CoH and retract my statement's tone. I believe, in playing with many of those CoH, way before you became an Orgah, that part of CoH is the display of integrity in action and thought. CoH does not mean stand down to a vile post that attempts to vilify or characterize your statements in an untrue manner....

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Fine, I offered the olive branch, you declined. You read the post wrong, you jumped on it wrong. If you read the rest of my post, I thought it was pretty obvious what my intent was, so much for the 'vile' crap. Your response was and still is bunk, and that "I've been here longer than you" stuff is just utter bullcrap that people throw out as a last resort. I may not have joined up until recently but I have been reading this site and these forums since STW was out, so don't presume to lecture me on what you think this site is about.

Edit - Econ, I posted this before I saw your response, my apologies. This was the last bit I had to say.

talk about misreading... Will forgo further rebut, it stands on its own and with respect to Econ.

Another thread in need of some :hippie: :loveg: and :daisy: (peace, love, and happiness).

As my esteemed colleague says, enough.

Go to Matrix Games .com Here's a company that remains steadfast in developing 'hard core' games, albeit mostly war games - some with the grognard in mind. No doubt a smaller company that is trying to 'keep the faith'.

The console gaming is a world of suppression and manipulation of the consumer...
If RTW was a console game we wouldnt have NTW2, EB, RTR, LOTRTW and all the other fantastic mods/games...
The day that the PC gaming dies will be truly a sad day for gamers...

I was just thinking about this again today when I read Slashdot's Why Microsoft should fear Apple article. One thing come to mind: the main selling point of Windows PCs is the wide variety of games. People put up with the high OS costs, security problems, and general M$ crap because of this. Take away the good games and the incentive to use Windows goes with it. I would think that it is in Microsoft's best interest to keep PC gaming alive. If not, we will all be moving to Macs or Linux for our desktop/web-browsing needs, and buying whatever console suits us for games. Ballmer needs to start throwing chairs at the gaming company execs now.

How ironic would it be for a successful XBox to be the downfall of Microsoft? :laugh4:

I think the days of the console are numbered. I dont think it will be long before either computers are built into your tv or your cable or network provider will provide the cpu and stuff for you all you need do is subscibe and have a terminal installed.

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Originally Posted by drone

I was just thinking about this again today when I read Slashdot's Why Microsoft should fear Apple article. One thing come to mind: the main selling point of Windows PCs is the wide variety of games. People put up with the high OS costs, security problems, and general M$ crap because of this. Take away the good games and the incentive to use Windows goes with it. I would think that it is in Microsoft's best interest to keep PC gaming alive. If not, we will all be moving to Macs or Linux for our desktop/web-browsing needs, and buying whatever console suits us for games. Ballmer needs to start throwing chairs at the gaming company execs now.

How ironic would it be for a successful XBox to be the downfall of Microsoft? :laugh4:

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Actually M$ has been trying to revamp PC games for years. But fully half their efforts are to make getting into PC gamming less complex. One thing they seem obcessed with is system requirements and making it easier to read and understand without a technology degree. And their only idea seems to be a colour coding system. Where you hold the games sys-req's up to your PC's sys-req's and if the colours match you can be sure the game will run. Even Microsoft live is an attempt to keep PC gamming alive.

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Originally Posted by hellenes

The console gaming is a world of suppression and manipulation of the consumer...
If RTW was a console game we wouldnt have NTW2, EB, RTR, LOTRTW and all the other fantastic mods/games...
The day that the PC gaming dies will be truly a sad day for gamers...

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M$ has been developing a home-brew type game SDK for the xbox.

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Originally Posted by drone

I was just thinking about this again today when I read Slashdot's Why Microsoft should fear Apple article. One thing come to mind: the main selling point of Windows PCs is the wide variety of games. People put up with the high OS costs, security problems, and general M$ crap because of this. Take away the good games and the incentive to use Windows goes with it. I would think that it is in Microsoft's best interest to keep PC gaming alive. If not, we will all be moving to Macs or Linux for our desktop/web-browsing needs, and buying whatever console suits us for games. Ballmer needs to start throwing chairs at the gaming company execs now.

How ironic would it be for a successful XBox to be the downfall of Microsoft? :laugh4:

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Personally, I think it might be Vista/DX10 that does the damage. By trying to make Vista, in effect, a forced upgrade for gamers might run the risk of fracturing the market. Then again, maybe I'm wrong. :beam:

I definitely agree that the main draw of Windows is the games. :yes:

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

Or maybe it's just me who thinks the average quality of movies has gotten a lot worse the last decade and the analogy doesn't work for all :shrug:

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I disagree. It's not like the movie audiences remain static. Whenever an older jaded person outgrows the whole summer blockbuster movie crapfest then an excitable tweener replaces that position and the toilet humor/big explosions crap continues to be sold uninterrupted. And brainless movies had been with Hollywood since probably the beginning. Don't tell me the old Spaghetti Westerns have brains!

If it's, say, the painting scene it might be different, because that scene has a limited and "knowledgeable" audience that shares the same fluctuating attitudes. The movie scene is way, way too big for that.

The gaming scene, well...

I'm still skeptical about a decent complex strategy game being played on a console. So no, I remain sort of loyal to the PC gaming world.

Mind you, I also remain embittered because nobody make good RPG games these days. Or at least ones that don't crash right on my relatively new computer *coughNWN2cough* or force me to wait until I buy a shiny new one *Oblivioncough*.

Oh, and I raise my Protestant banner in opposition to Pope Gates' attempt to force the flock to adopt Vista!

I don't think the main draw for Windows is games, but I do think it's a large part of it. We also need to include offices and such, and its overall ease of use for consumers who aren't always "computer-literate".

well today RTS isnt the most popular genre in gaming i believe.
today most people will play more online FPS/ or some sort of action game in a console than a PC. and you cant really have RTS on a console (cept Brothers in Arms) which is the PC's main domain of gaming imo.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Oh, and I raise my Protestant banner in opposition to Pope Gates' attempt to force the flock to adopt Vista!

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I definitely second this. Regardless of what else I feel/believe on the issue of PC gaming, I'm absolutely furious that Microsoft is trying to force players to purchase an OS that's incompatible with older games. Unless and until I reach the point that I'm absolutely sick of games like Shogun and MTW -- or he miraculously relents and makes Vista backwards-compatible (and yes, I realize it's more likely the NFL will play on Neptune before that happens) -- Gates can shove it.

I think making Vista incompatible with older titles is a colossal mistake on the part of Microsoft, and that it will be far too late to rectifiy matters once they realize this. :sad:

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Originally Posted by Martok

I definitely second this. Regardless of what else I feel/believe on the issue of PC gaming, I'm absolutely furious that Microsoft is trying to force players to purchase an OS that's incompatible with older games. Unless and until I reach the point that I'm absolutely sick of games like Shogun and MTW -- or he miraculously relents and makes Vista backwards-compatible (and yes, I realize it's more likely the NFL will play on Neptune before that happens) -- Gates can shove it.

I think making Vista incompatible with older titles is a colossal mistake on the part of Microsoft, and that it will be far too late to rectifiy matters once they realize this. :sad:

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The best analogy I've heard about Vista and gaming so far is thus:

"Vista is 'targeted' at gamers much the same way that the federal sniper's gun is 'targeted' at the wierd looking guy running across the White House lawn."

Anyone else think it's a riot that apples to apples, Vista is on average 5-20% slower than the exact same game running on XP? Yeah, I'll be sticking with XP for a good while.

:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by hellenes

The console gaming is a world of suppression and manipulation of the consumer...
If RTW was a console game we wouldnt have NTW2, EB, RTR, LOTRTW and all the other fantastic mods/games...
The day that the PC gaming dies will be truly a sad day for gamers...

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I second your comments (and many others on this thread)!

Seems to me consoles have two main advantages over PCs.

1 You can plug them into you TV


Well with the new Plama and LCD TVs you can do the same with your PC now


2 They have ports for 4 players and games designed for them


This is where PCs really get left behind. I dont know why they dont just put gaming control ports and controls like a PS2 or 3 on PCs nowdays. Though I think it maybe possible using the USB ports.