Estonia's Decision to Remove Soviet WWII Monument Sparks Protest

So put a stamp on the statue, and mark it "Return to Czender"? Postal Services can facilitate much diplomacy.

@Tribesman: in Ireland there still exist statues to British soldiers? Wow. Where? What is the theory for maintaining them - homage to bravery, no matter the source?

Comparing the marker where Stonewall's arm was buried to this? Sorry, I miss the point. Heck, every town in the South has some kind of memorial for their fallen in the CW - and I haven't heard of any of them tearing up Union graves there. It is not the same as Estonia's removing a Soviet statue honoring those that brutalized them.

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@Tribesman: in Ireland there still exist statues to British soldiers? Wow. Where?

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All over , parks , streets , town squares , cemeteries , barracks ,train stations , schools , sportsgrounds......it can be contentious, like when they blew up Nelson in o'connel street , or when Paisley got upset because he found out the V.C. statue was of the wrong flavour .
And who could forget Eniskillen :no:

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It shows who was the real god guys in WW2. Even the French havent thrown out our memorials and still honor the allied soldiers who died LIBERATING their nation.

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Have the French thrown out the German memorials ?(Ireland has one of those aswell and we were not even in that war:laugh4: ) . It shows who the good guys are , and it doesn't look like it is the Estonians .

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Originally Posted by Kafir Cobee

You jest? Estonia attempted to remain neutral as I recall - but, were invaded by the Nazis

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Recollection at fault here. Estonia was invaded by the USSR in 1940. It was then occupied by the Germans as part of Barbarossa. Some Estonians were drafted in to the Red Army, but before that others were deported and Russians moved to Estonia. The contribution by the Red Army to the defeat of Hitler should not be forgotten. It often is in the West. However there are better places for memorials than Estonia.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

All over , parks , streets , town squares , cemeteries , barracks ,train stations , schools , sportsgrounds......it can be contentious, like when they blew up Nelson in o'connel street , or when Paisley got upset because he found out the V.C. statue was of the wrong flavour .
And who could forget Eniskillen

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Are you sure, Tribesman. Aren't those memorials to Irish soldiers who died fighting as part of the British armed forces? Obviously Nelson wasn't Irish, but as you say, he has been toppled. In any case, there won't be any memorials to Cromwell's soldiers, King Billy's armies or the Black and Tans. Not south of the border anyway.

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Have the French thrown out the German memorials ?(Ireland has one of those aswell and we were not even in that war ) . It shows who the good guys are , and it doesn't look like it is the Estonians .

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Where is it? Is there one to English soldiers who died in that war. THEN you might be able to claim moral superiority over the Estonians.

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Originally Posted by Randarkmaan

And to Panzerjager: you are just confused... And the german uniforms looked stupid.

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Now who looks stupid? You can say alot about Germans, but you can't say they didnt fight in style. :yes:


wiki:

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Estonia was formally annexed by the Soviet Union in August 1940 as the Estonian SSR. Many of the country's political and intellectual leaders were killed or deported to remote areas of the USSR by the Soviet authorities during 1940 to 1941. The repressions also included actions taken against thousands of ordinary people. When the German Operation Barbarossa started against the Soviet Union, thousands of young Estonian men were forcibly drafted into the Red Army. Hundreds of political prisoners, whom the retreating Soviets had no time to move, were killed. The country was occupied by Germany from 1941 to 1944 and many Estonians joined the German Armed Forces. Soviet forces reconquered Estonia after fierce battles in the northeast of the country on the Narva river and on the Tannenberg Line (Sinimäed). In the face of imminent re-occupation by the Red Army, tens of thousands of people chose to either retreat together with the Germans or flee the country to Finland or Sweden . In 1949, in response to slow progress in forming collective farms, as prescribed by the Soviet ideology, tens of thousands of people were forcibly deported in a few days either to labor camps or Siberia where half of them perished; the other half were not allowed to return until the early 1960s (several years after Stalin's death). That and previous repressions in 1940-1941 sparked a guerrilla war against the Soviet authorities in Estonia which was waged into the early 1950s by the so called "forest brothers" (metsavennad) consisting mostly of Estonian veterans of both the German and Finnish armies as well as some civilians.

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Id say there is a much better argument for a statue of a German soldier than the communist scum.

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The contribution by the Red Army to the defeat of Hitler should not be forgotten.

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To me this is like partaising Saddam for keeping Iran in check. The Russians were as bad if not worse than the Germans. They fought a war of occupation and called it a war of liberation. They didnt liberate anyone . In fact quite the opposite. I really dont think they deserve any praise other than for being brave men who went to their deaths for a bad cause. They were duped.

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Originally Posted by Gawain

They didnt liberate anyone ... being brave men who went to their deaths for a bad cause

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Considering the post you are replying to I assume that you are not only referring to Estonia anymore but make a general statement here (please feel free to correct me if that assumption is incorrect :bow:).
That said, I would think that I do not think that Russia itself would have been better off under the Germans - so they certainly did fight a war of liberation and fought for died for a good cause, i.e. defending their own country from a brutal invader.

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so they certainly did fight a war of liberation and fought for died for a good cause, i.e. defending their own country from a brutal invader.

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Ill give you they defended their own country but they went way beyond that. In fact at the start of the war they were allied with the Germans. Who did they liberate? Not even themselves. Certainly not the Estonians. In fact they helped enslave their nation and many others. That is unless you think the USSR was a good thing.

Unfortunatley they declined to leave the 'liberated' counties when the war ended. Oh! silly me, I forgot, they were 'asked' to stay around for fifty years. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Gawain

That is unless you think the USSR was a good thing.

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Actually I do indeed think that the Russians were better off living in the USSR than they would have been under German occupation. Do you disagree? If so, why?

BTW, this comparison

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Originally Posted by Gawain

To me this is like partaising Saddam for keeping Iran in check.

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is actually not that good, as to my knowledge Saddam attacked Iran - a country that did not invade multiple neighboring countries and/or started a global conflict.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

In fact at the start of the war they were allied with the Germans. Who did they liberate?

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The people of Poland, twice. The heroic Red Army liberated half the country so the Wehrmacht couldn't get it, and the British and French declared war only on Germany. Clearly some liberated countries and some occupied them.

Many nationalists, fascists and anti-communists (many were also conscripted against their will by the Germans in the later years of the war) fought with the Germans against the Soviets (at least they believed they did). Likevise many communists fought with the Soviets against the Germans (or at least they belived they did). In reality these people were just fighting for one cruel totalitarian regime against another cruel totalititarian regime.
Anyway, when looking at the big picture, the world should praise itself lucky that the Soviet Union fought against the Germans rather than alongside them.

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Now who looks stupid? You can say alot about Germans, but you can't say they didnt fight in style.

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Personally when it comes to combat uniforms I think the "potato-sack" and sometimes "rag-tag" appearance of the American battle dress in WWII is the one that reminds most of soldiers, the Germans look like they're dressed for a formal occasion.

Anyway one interesting thing that I just remembered is that most of the political enemies that Stalin got rid of were communists. The vast majority of those he caused the death of were poor farmers who died in the famine (the largest human-engineered famine ever). This was not in response to anything anyone said, I think.

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Actually I do indeed think that the Russians were better off living in the USSR than they would have been under German occupation. Do you disagree? If so, why?

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Maybe the Russians but they didnt make up all of the USSR did they? How about East Germany? Who would they have been better off under?

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is actually not that good, as to my knowledge Saddam attacked Iran - a country that did not invade multiple neighboring countries and/or started a global conflict.

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Look at Iran now with Saddam gone. Iran is probably the biggest trouble maker in the world. Im saying it was bad guy vs bad guy. Its the way the US conducts things. Its a really good comparison. Its why we put up with Saddam for so long. The best startegy even in MTW is to get your enemies to fight eachother. WW2 is probably one of the best examples ever. The only reason to back Russia over Germany was strategic. We didnt want either of them to win.

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The people of Poland, twice. The heroic Red Army liberated half the country so the Wehrmacht couldn't get it,

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Wow thats the first time Ive ever heard this spin on the topic.:inquisitive:

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and the British and French declared war only on Germany.

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Because of treaty obligations.

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Clearly some liberated countries and some occupied them.

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Once more name one country liberated by the Russians other than Russia? And I dont call that liberation. Just the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Gawain

Maybe the Russians but they didnt make up all of the USSR did they?

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Not all but the majority - as for the other Soviet Republics, it probably depends - if you happened to fall under Nazi Germany's idea of what constitutes an "Untermensch" you were probably better off being oppressed by "commie scum" (as PJ chose to put it)

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How about East Germany? Who would they have been better off under?

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If you played "model Nazi" you probably would have been better off, if you decided to stay low-key and did not care too much about having (or - got forbid - even voicing) your own political views it probably would have been similar either way, if you did not fit into the pattern (communist, Jew, gay, etc. etc.) I'll dare say you were much better off the way things went historically.
So, altogether, I would say that the East Germans were better off as a satellite state of the Soviets than they would have been as part of a Nazi regime (of course West Germany got the jackpot compared to either of these two options, but that's another question, isn't it?)

As a person whose country was "liberated" by russian soldiers I think I should speak something.

Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were never attacked by Germans as Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. They were attacked as territories controlled by Russians.
Into 1939 (officially into 1940) Russians annexed these countries and established military bases. When Germans attacked USSR , they were practically liberators for peoples of Baltic states.
Later (1944-1945) Russians recaptured Baltic states. I'm using word capture because liberation is bad words - liberator is someone who is welcome as liberator - Russians certainly weren't.

If Russians did capture Baltic states into 1940, they wouldn't have to recapture it into 1944/45. So all the Russians that died there were no liberators but soldiers of regime who died for regime. They were ordered to annex other country and they did during annexion. SO they can't be glorified by annexed people.

Situation is similar to Finnish war with Russians (Finns were asked to be 2nd Balts but "disagreed"). I don't think Finns should establish monument to glorify russian soldiers who died "liberating Eastern Karelia" into 1944.

And someone told that into 1939 Russia saved half of Poland from German occupation. WITHOUT HAPPILY RUSSIAN SUPPORT AND COOPERATION GERMANS WOULD NEVER ATTACK POLAND ALONE.
"Liberation" of Poland into 1943-1945 was just another part of war beetwen 2 regimes - communism and nazism. War into Poland did not finished into 1945 - one occupant were replaced by another. Its true that Russians were rahter killing only people who did not agree on being their slaves and Germans were killing everyone but Russians were nothing more than another occupator. Best proof is that Russia stole half of Poland and officially gave it "independent" Belarus, Ukraine and Lithuania. We can discuss about Ukraine and Lithuania but with full respect for Belarussians - there were hardly any Belarussians into territories gave them.

To sum up - Russians soldiers died "liberating" Europe into ww2 were not heroes for me. They were just servants of regime similar to nazism. I don't think they should be glorified anywhere exept Russia (because its true that into some part of Russia they were being liberators). They died fighting for evil so don't expect that they go to heaven.:thumbsdown:
Now their monument is being destroyed - its good IMO. It shows that Estonia is not Russian province anymore.

I'd say it's darn well perfectly allowable for a nation to remove a monument to its brutal and wholly unlawful occupiers. All Ivan is doing is whining about how he's lost his preeminent position in Eastern Europe. I say good riddance and that justice has finally been done.

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Not all but the majority - as for the other Soviet Republics, it probably depends - if you happened to fall under Nazi Germany's idea of what constitutes an "Untermensch" you were probably better off being oppressed by "commie scum" (as PJ chose to put it)

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The majority of republics in the USSR were certainly not the russians however were they? And does Russia out number all the republics that were in the USSR combined? How many joined freely ? This whole idea of the Russia being glorius and heroic is beyond me. I mean I can find many things to praise about the German fighting man as well if not more. But their cause just like the Russians was evil. They wanted to conquer just like the Germans did. And dont for a second thing that most german soldiers didnt think they were fighting to protect their nation as well. Soldiers for the most part are soldiers. They do what their told. Now dont you think all these nations would have been better off oppressed by the western allies?

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If you played "model Nazi" you probably would have been better off, if you decided to stay low-key and did not care too much about having (or - got forbid - even voicing) your own political views it probably would have been similar either way, if you did not fit into the pattern (communist, Jew, gay, etc. etc.) I'll dare say you were much better off the way things went historically.

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Oh please. If you were German you certainly were better off under German rule. This is true for the vast majority ,I cant believe your arguing this. These two peoples dispised eachother at this point. I wouldnt want to be a German living under Russian rule. Just look at West Germany compared to East Germany .

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Originally Posted by Gawain

Oh please. If you were German you certainly were better off under German rule. This is true for the vast majority ,I cant believe your arguing this. These two peoples dispised eachother at this point. I wouldnt want to be a German living under Russian rule. Just look at West Germany compared to East Germany .

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So you are saying that East Germans would have been better off under a continued Nazi regime then they would have been under the actual Socialist regime in the GDR?
I'd like to point out that these are the two options we are discussing - not West Germany vs. East Germany (I think I made my view on that question pretty clear in the part of my post that you did not quote).

Do you think that the average German under the Nazi regime was more or less free than those in the GDR? (and I do not quite recall German citizens being gassed based on their religion or race in the GDR).

Looking at current East German election results it would also seem that the East Germans prefer the GDR over Nazi Germany.

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Originally Posted by gawain

The majority of republics in the USSR were certainly not the russians however were they?

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I would say half of them actually were

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And dont for a second thing that most german soldiers didnt think they were fighting to protect their nation as well.

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I guess that's why we still have memorials for those who have fallen ~;)

Of course a difference is that they actually didn't fight to protect their country (that my grandfather died on the Eastern front perhaps believing that he sacrificed his life for the good of his country does not change the fact that he died for the dreams of megalomaniacs and that his family was expelled from their land for this "dream")

The only statues I really care about are those that depict Bismarck, all the others are not really important.~D
Honoring soldiers for this, honoring soldiers for that, remembering is fine, but apparently the majority of Estonians doesn't want to be remembered of russian soldiers, so what? Noone says the Russians are not allowed to remember them, they can put up statues on their bookshelves at home if they want. Now if estonians will destroy these, THEN we have an issue.:sweatdrop:

By the way, of course Eastern Germany would have been better off under Bismarck. And borders of countries change, a lot, so who gave half of this or that to this or that country doesn't really matter, Poland got parts of Germany after Germany took them from others many centuries ago etc.
Borders change, deal with it.~;)

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So you are saying that East Germans would have been better off under a continued Nazi regime then they would have been under the actual Socialist regime in the GDR?

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Without a doubt if the Germans had won the war.

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Do you think that the average German under the Nazi regime was more or less free than those in the GDR? (and I do not quite recall German citizens being gassed based on their religion or race in the GDR).

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Much more free. How many German POWs returned from Russia? They killed them before anexing their nation. But I guess better dead than under Nazi rule. True liberation.

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Looking at current East German election results it would also seem that the East Germans prefer the GDR over Nazi Germany.

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Or the USSR.

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I would say half of them actually were

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Name them

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Of course a difference is that they actually didn't fight to protect their country

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They did so as much as any Russian soldier did.

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that he sacrificed his life for the good of his country does not change the fact that he died for the dreams of megalomaniacs

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Now where does the Russian soldier differ here?

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Originally Posted by Gawain

Without a doubt if the Germans had won the war.

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I guess 10 years after the war when all the Germans that did not fit the ideal of how a German should be or think would have been exterminated you might have been right.

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Much more free. How many German POWs returned from Russia? They killed them before anexing their nation. But I guess better dead than under Nazi rule. True liberation.

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Do you want to get into a comparison of the treatment of PoWs on both sides? Please explain to which extent Germans in Nazi Germany have been more free than those living in the GDR.

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Or the USSR.

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As more people are voting for the party that was in charge during GDR than for the neonazi party and a lot of people actually seem miss the old GDR times I guess you might be wrong here.

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Name them

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I will name the ca. 100 million Russians after you named all the non-Russians :inquisitive:

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Now where does the Russian soldier differ here?

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Uhm ... if I remember they actually defended their country against a German invasion army (I might be wrong though)

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I guess 10 years after the war when all the Germans that did not fit the ideal of how a German should be or think would have been exterminated you might have been right.

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I dont think the average German under Hitler had much to worry about as compared to Russians under Stalin. They were far better off economically. Hitler certainly didnt want to piss off the masses.

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Do you want to get into a comparison of the treatment of PoWs on both sides? Please explain to which extent Germans in Nazi Germany have been more free than those living in the GDR.

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Please show me how they were better off. They wouldnt have been a statlite nation. Do you really think the Russians treated them better than Hitler would have. Do you think most Germans were oppressed worse under him than they were under Stalin?

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As more people are voting for the party that was in charge during GDR than for the neonazi party and a lot of people actually seem miss the old GDR times I guess you might be wrong here.

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Yes Im sure most Germans just cant wait to be associated with Nazis again lol. So you still have two misquided parties there big deal. Im sure they wyuld rather go back to the good old days when Stalin first took control of their nation. Im sure they were dancing in the streets and thanking him for liberating them.:laugh4:

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will name the ca. 100 million Russians after you named all the non-Russians

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You said the majority of republics that made up the USSR were Russians. I asked you to name them. It shouldnt be hard.

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Uhm ... if I remember they actually defended their country against a German invasion army (I might be wrong though)

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That you are. Both sides were getting ready to attack eachother. Hitler just beat Stalin to the punch. And as has been already brought up what about Russias invasiions of the Baltic states and Poland. This was before the war with Germany. A fact many people overlook. This was not in defense of their nation but outright aggression just like the Germans. There is little to choose between the two. Its hard to even argue Russia was the lesser evil and that why we went with them. They were two of the worst regimes ever to grace this planet.

The more I read about this issue, the closer I come to thinking it would be a good idea for Estonia to remove the statue just to piss off Putin and his supporters. I think the Soviet grunts who were forced to die for an evil regime deserve better, but Russia should stick its ugly nose in its own business.

And as bad as the DDR was for the east-Germans, a prolonged Nazi occupation would have been a lot worse for Russia or indeed any Slavic country.

Oh well . I had a lengthy respose written out , but between visitors and hoards of kids it has gone ...so ..
Gawain.......:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: oh stop .....:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Duke......examine the situation , think , then reply .:yes: Its a complicated situation but easily accesible , to say the least , with the last part of your post you are ...wrong ....completely wrong.

oh .....might as well add the plug even though the post is lost ......one of my neighbours next book is going to be....war memorials of Ireland....by Willie (thats an orange name~;) ) Henry .

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Originally Posted by Gawain

I dont think the average German under Hitler had much to worry about as compared to Russians under Stalin.

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The "average" German (i.e. if he did not decide to speak up against the regime) did not have much to worry about in the GDR either.
BTW, is it OK if "non-average" citizens (whatever you mean by "average") like Jewish citizens, gays, disabled people are sytematically killed as long as the "average" citizen is better of economically?

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Originally Posted by gawain

You said the majority of republics that made up the USSR were Russians. I asked you to name them. It shouldnt be hard.

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My mistake - as we were originally talking about people not the number of republics and Russians accounted probably for at least half of the population.
But if we talk about Republics - do you think that most of them would have been better off under Nazi rule than as part of the USSR?
I guess that's again a point were we have to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Gawain

That you are. Both sides were getting ready to attack eachother. Hitler just beat Stalin to the punch.

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So because the USSR might have attacked Germany I am wrong in saying that the Russians defended their country against an invader that clearly fought a war of aggression for land and resources?
A very odd view on history you have here, Gawain...

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Originally Posted by Gawain

And as has been already brought up what about Russias invasiions of the Baltic states and Poland. This was before the war with Germany. A fact many people overlook. This was not in defense of their nation but outright aggression just like the Germans.

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However, you and I were talking about the war between Russia and Germans weren't we?
Let me ask again:
Were Russian soldiers defending their country against an invader when fighting against the Germans or not?
When Germans burnt Russian towns and killed scores of civilians, were they defending their country - yes or no?

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Please show me how they were better off. They wouldnt have been a statlite nation. Do you really think the Russians treated them better than Hitler would have. Do you think most Germans were oppressed worse under him than they were under Stalin?

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Well it depends. If you were a german jew...

Really, you have to understand the difference between "russians" and "ussr". It is not the same thing. Russians were the most numerous ethnic group in the ussr. Russians were oppressed just about as any other ethnic group in ussr. Of course its twice as bad when you are oppressed by a foreign regimes but don't think for one moment that russians have basked in luxury and freedom while the rest of the soviet union worked for them. They were sent to siberia alongside germans, poles, lithuanians and so on...

Nazi Germany tried to create a world where aryan race rules, and everybody else is either dead or a slave. Don't for one second think that you could compare ussr and nazi germany. In ussr people were oppressed. In nazi germany people were exterminated. It is possible to shut up but it is impossible to change your genes.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Once more name one country liberated by the Russians other than Russia.

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Yugoslavia.

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Yugoslavia.

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Awwww come on Samatian , thats not fair , you neglected the Bulgarians and Albanians .
Though of course all Albanians are just drug smuggling criminals ...just ask Gawain ....he knows because his uncle helped liberate yugoslavia and he told him so.:yes:
But anyway his uncle is now Greek , so don't forget the Greek/Macedonian element , or the Hungarian , and as he was American don;t neglect the American , British/Commonwealth , French and Italian contributions to the liberation.

Sooooooooo...apart from fighting against a racist genocidal regime..what has the USSR ever done for anyone ?

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The "average" German (i.e. if he did not decide to speak up against the regime) did not have much to worry about in the GDR either.

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They were never persecuted just for being German under Hitler. Are you trying to claim that there were no reprisals when Russia took over?

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the GDR either.
BTW, is it OK if "non-average" citizens (whatever you mean by "average") like Jewish citizens, gays, disabled people are sytematically killed as long as the "average" citizen is better of economically?

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No , but the point is certainly most Germans were better off under tha Nazis. That is until the war came along.

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But if we talk about Republics - do you think that most of them would have been better off under Nazi rule than as part of the USSR?

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No and thats the whole point. You seem to be thinking i think the Nazis are moraly superior to the Russians. They both suck. They certainly are better off under their own rule. Russia certainly did not liberate them.

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So because the USSR might have attacked Germany I am wrong in saying that the Russians defended their country against an invader that clearly fought a war of aggression for land and resources?

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Theres no might about it. Its like when the Israelis attacked in 67. Your also ignoring their invasions prior to the war with Germany. In fact they had a pact to split up Poland with Germany.

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Were Russian soldiers defending their country against an invader when fighting against the Germans or not?

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I said when they were on Russian soil Yes. The rest of the time no. They were just as bad as the Germans and I still cant see how anyone can argue elswise. So when we and the Russians got to Germanys borders they were defending their nation no?

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When Germans burnt Russian towns and killed scores of civilians, were they defending their country - yes or no?
Today 19:02

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When Russians burnt German towns and killed scores of civilians were they defending their country - yes or no?

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Nazi Germany tried to create a world where aryan race rules, and everybody else is either dead or a slave. Don't for one second think that you could compare ussr and nazi germany. In ussr people were oppressed. In nazi germany people were exterminated. It is possible to shut up but it is impossible to change your genes

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More people were "exterminated" by Stalin than Hitler. Maybe you should study your history a little. Stalin was a paraniod freak. If he even though you oppossed him it was your end. Thats why they hated eachother so much. Its the extreme left meeting the extreme right and finding that in the end extremism leads both sides to the same place.

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Yugoslavia.

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I doubt the people there would agree with you.

Isn't this entire bawling by the Russians over a statue a simple political diversion for Putin? It is one of those totally meaningless affairs that a politician uses to divert attention from the realities at home. There is something else at work here, and this is a weak excuse for what ever Putin is up to.

I mean didn't some Russians just celebrate Hitler's B-day? So, how meaningful is the 'patriots war' today for the youth of Russia? Or, Russians for that matter - I mean it was a massacre for them pertpetrated by their own leaders and generals. A neccessity, sure - well fought? No.