Best in class - by faction

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Originally Posted by Empirate

Hungarian DCK actually have inferior stats to DFK, if there isn't something I've overlooked - this might be due to armor upgrades being available earlier or something like that. However, DCK seem to perform better than DFK as far as I have found. Maybe there is some hidden variable entering into the equation as well. Also, DCK have slightly less upkeep... for what it's worth.

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Actually they have the same upkeep... and DCK cost a bit more to recruit.

DCK stats, while somewhat inferior, do break down differently than DFK stats (in a good way).

DFK armor/skill/shield:
7/8/6
DCK armor/skill/shield:
8/8/3

This gives DFK the following armors:
Front - 21
Side - 18
Rear - 7

and DCK have:
Front - 19
Side - 17/18 (I don't know whether the game rounds 1.5 up or down)
Rear - 8

So they're nearly as good as DFK, just not quite. The only other possible explanation for DCK performing better than DFK would be if they had better (faster) animations which allowed them to attack more often. If they do, I haven't noticed it, and I seem to have DFKs beating DCKs routinely in 1v1 battles, so I'm guessing you have simply had a few weird experiences that have led you to false conclusions.

Or I suppose you could be using a non-1.2 version of the game, or a 1.2 that patched incorrectly. If your game still has the shield bug (pre-1.2), then DCKs would probably be better because they have substantially less shield points, meaning it would drag them down less and they'd probably end up more effective.

In any case, you should probably run DFK (any faction, they're identical) against Hungarian DCK a few times and see what happens for you. As I said the DFKs beat them for me, so if they don't for you then maybe something is up with your game.

Re: Best Egyptian Melee cav.

I looked up my old Egyptian unit guide, and found this about Arab Cavalry:

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a. Arab Cavalry ...

I’m more impressed with this unit after every campaign. Although described as light cavalry, look at the stats: Attack and defense are each one point below the values of a Western mailed knight. Charge is much weaker -- mailed knights have a value of 6 there -- but Arab Cavalry costs only three-fourths as much to make and 75 florins less per turn to maintain. Put another way, recruiting an English mailed knight unit and using it at full strength for 10 turns costs 3,180 florins. The same calculation for AC is 2,260. Spend the difference on upgrades, or you can build and maintain 140 Desert Cavalry for 10 turns for the cost of 100 mailed knights ....

Perceptive readers will note that Mamluk Archer melee stats are very comparable, with a very close attack values plus the anti-armor effect of a mace instead of the Arab Cavalry’s sword. Defense is notably better. However, Mamluk Archers are very expensive units.

b. Mameluks (Melee) ...

A price of 820 florins is a lot for a glorified feudal knight unit. Note, however, that the maintenance cost is 40 florins a turn less than that of a mere mailed knight. At least you get your money back. Also, watch the Mamluks’ maces come out in melee, giving them tough fighters against armored units. Again, once you get this unit in melee against something with a better charge, keep them locked there and look around for some javelin unit to make a vital contribution.

Despite the expense of melee Mamluks, there are some jobs just too tough for Arab Cavalry. Mamluks can hold out longer. Their defense isn’t a whole lot better, but their higher attack means that high-end knight units don’t get a numbers advantage over them as quickly as against Arab Cavalry.

c. Royal Mamluks ...

This one can go head-to-head against any Western knight unit of equal experience and upgrades thanks to it's anti-armor bonus in melee, but requires a citadel with a Caliph's stable. If you keep playing or fight battles on the Internet, the same rule about keeping the enemy in melee and not allowing repeated charges still applies. Also, it's penalty for fighting in the heat (desert) is notably less than that for European units of similar quality.

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In short, as FactionHeir pointed out, Arab cavalry can be restored or built anywhere and are quite comparable in the stats with their much more expensive breathren. They don't have the moral, discipline and training of the more expensive melee cavalry units but an experienced Arab Cavalry is a fine unit.

MOORS:

Spears: Lamtuna Spearmen*
Swords: Hashishim
Missiles: Desert Archers
Melee Cav: Christian Guards
Missile Cav: Grandine Jinete, until the Camel Gunner is invented.

*Lamtuna Spearmen are the best of a sorry lot. They have NO armor and die miserably to missiles. You're better off with Urban Militia, even against knights.

I'd like to do my take on the Moors.

All my recommendations are based on 1.20 + Carl's Fixer 1.14 OR any other combination of fixes and stat rebalance.

Most will apply to vanilla 1.20 as well. Except for the assault/anti cavalry class. I will classify by period. These periods represent your military development rather than a specific date. these recommendations also take progression and flavor into account. If anyone wants a reason for these choices, just ask. I'm not 100% sure of the armor upgrades, working from memory.

THE MOORS
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/...oors_SigM2.jpg

EARLY
Cavalry: Arab Cavalry.
Anti Cavalry: Tuareg Camel Spearmen_Padded Armor.
Missile Cavalry: Desert Cavalry_Padded Armor.
Missile: Desert Archers_Padded Armor, Sudanese Javelins_Padded Armor.
Artillery: Ballistae.
Swords: Urban Militia_Chain Mail.
Spears: Dismounted Tuareg Spearmen_Padded Armor.

HIGH
Cavalry: Grenadine Lancers.
Anti Cavalry: Tuareg Camel Spearmen_Padded Armor.
Missile Cavalry: Grenadine Jinettes_Heavy Mail, Grenadine Crossbow Cavalry.
Missile: Desert Archers_Padded Armor, Crossbow Militia_Padded Armor.
Artillery: Ballistae, Trebuchet.
Swords: Dismounted Christian Guard.
Spears: Dismounted Arab Cavalry.

LATE
Cavalry: Christian Guard.
Anti Cavalry: Tuareg Camel Spearmen_Padded Armor.
Missile Cavalry: Grenadine Jinettes_Heavy Mail, Grenadine Crossbow Cavalry.
Missile: Desert Archers_Padded Armor, Crossbow Militia_Padded Armor.
Artillery: Ballistae, Trebuchet.
Swords: Dismounted Christian Guard, HashashiN.
Spears: Dismounted Arab Cavalry_Chain Mail.

GUNPOWDER
Cavalry: Christian Guard.
Anti Cavalry: Tuareg Camel Spearmen_Padded Armor.
Missile Cavalry: Grenadine Jinettes_Heavy Mail, Camel Gunners.
Missile: Sudanese Gunners_Padded Armor.
Assault: Handgunners.
Swords: Dismounted Christian Guard, HashashiN.
Spears: None.
Artillery: Cannon.

No offense sinan, but you basically just listed every unit that the moors get in the order that they get them minus the obvious gimp units(early militias, peasants etc) :P

I thought the Hungarian roster was rather drab. Very laboured, very forced. Not all that creative nor appealing in my opinion.

None taken.

I did not list every unit, bar "gimps". It would have been impressive to include suggestions, improvements and comments. One of the purposes of a forum is to learn from each other, and that's what I can offer for The Moors, for anyone who is interested. Not everyone has a great mastery of the game and a lot of people come here for tips. It's not necessary to state the obvious for "vets" but many beginners appreciate it.

It could also be a much more simplistic listing: Christian Guard, Camel Gunners. You don't need anything else so why bother listing anything else. Who cares about different class when one class is enough. All other units are gimps compared to Camel Gunners. All other units are gimps compared to cavalry. the list could be simpler still: Camel Gunners. It would be great to see any army that can stand up to 20 Camel Gunners. Or you could simply list one unit which was considered the best, but we've seen that best means many different things to many different people. So why bother with anything else. The reason is as follows.

I play the game with as much variety and psychological application as I can. I am not an arcade gamer, as far as TW is concerned.
I am an arcade gamer when I play BF2142.

I think the idea is "best of class". Since I thought that this classification is incomplete and can be more complete if I set out what I consider to be the best of class plus a listing which could help with army composition. You can use the above to compose an army in each era. Each army will be effective, FUN and flavorful, and it uses units which I consider best of class for each class, for that faction. For example:-

Muwahid Gunpowder Combined Arms Army 1

• 1 Bodyguard.
• 1 Christian Guard.
• 2 Grenadine Jinettes_Heavy Mail.
• 4 Camel Gunners.
• 4 Sudanese Gunners_Padded Armor.
• 4 Handgunners.
• 4 Canon.

DEPLOYMENT
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/...npowder_A1.png

Tactics for this army are quite evident, but best explained through diagrams.
This is all I have time to do right now. Maybe I'll add to it, on another occasion.

I've also done an HRE listing (<-link) and an England listing. (<-link)

Doug-Thompson:

Egypt has such a great early game economy that cost really isn't an issue. It is trivially easy to Jihad towards Antioch and take Jerusalem along the way. Sacking these cities and developing them means you're economically set for the rest of the game. Not to mention the rich and unspoiled resources of Dongola are only a few turns away. That means one should use Mamluks/Mamluk Archers whenever possible despite their cost. It's also worth noting how mutually beneficial MA and Desert Cavalry are. MA are good against weak massed units while DC are good against smaller more armored ones. When it comes to melee it's completely opposite - MA's maces do well against armored foes while DC can mop up the rabble left over.

As for the Moors, their best swordsmen units are DCG and Urban Militia, not Hashashim. Assassin's Guilds are hard to come by making retraining a huge chore. DCG's have nearly the same stats and twice the unit size to make up for their less HP. Urban Militia are particularly good for assaulting the big rich cities of Italy and Britain. Both feature lower upkeep costs and greater availability.

Sinan:

- Moorish swords don't appear in the Early game (Minor City/Fortress or below)
- Dismounted Tuaregs aren't in the campaign
- Lamtuna and Merc spearmen are better in High
- Christian Guards can be considered High because they're available from Huge Walls
- Merc Xbows are probably better pre-gun missiles because of their power and ubiquity.
- Can you define "Assault"? It could mean a lot of things.
- Seriously, that last post was WAY over the top.

Foz... you're so obviously right about the shield bug thing it's embarassing. I have a fully functional patched 1.2 game now, but all my experience date to the dark pre-1.2 era. So that explains why DCK performed better. I didn't believe it was limited to Hungary, that was just the faction I had most experience with.
IrishArmenian... unfortunately I have to second your opinion of the Hungarian roster being a bit un-unique. In MTW they had very cool unique or semi-unique units like Szekely, Jobbagy, Slav Warriors and Slav Spearmen, together with some typical Catholic faction stuff. This used to make for an explosive mixture. Somehow, in M2TW, they ended up like they were just a bunch of units thrown together. Hungarian Nobles may take the place of Szekely, but those were better in comparison. Besides, HN are quite similar to Byz Vardariotai or Eggy Mamluk Archers, so no points for uniqueness. The basic Magyar Cavalry is so much inferior, and HN technology so easy to reach, that I almost never use Magyars. Royal Banderium is just another heavy cav unit, and as we all know, there's just not much variety to go around in this field. Battlefield Assassins might be cool, but I never got them because I like my reliable reputation. I wasn't even ever offered and assassin's guild. Besides, it strikes me as highly dubitable that the Hungarians of all factions should get these guys... :inquisitive:
The rest is jumbled together. Very good artillery, very good ships, both for no reason I can see. Halberd Militia. Hm. Standard knights, mounted and dismounted, OK, I can live with that. Bad castle missile troops, I never build them, they're so inferior to Pavese Crossbow Militia. Croat Axemen, a bad ripoff of Billmen. Ditto for Transsylvanian Peasants. Leaves you with standard armies plus a few Hungarian Nobles thrown in there.

Still, what I like about the Hungarians is their strategic position: Easier to crusade than with any other country. Smack in the middle of the Balkans, with easy access to Italy, Greece/Constantinople, or the eastern steppes. Surrounded by factions just like the HRE, but with more trading potential.

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Originally Posted by Sinan

One solution I would suggest is that base units like MK be themselves upgradable to other units, for example.

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That was a feature in the original MTW (retraining royal bodyguards from early to high and late), but it never became universal and never survived the transition to RTW.

Sinan: Why crossbow militia? Those are weak and have short range. Peasant crossbowmen on the other hand have long range missiles and good attack/defense.

Hi FH, IIRC Peasant Crossbows come from castles and I specialise my castles to produce cavalry, as Moors. Never ever produced them, am aware of the differences. I might have to revise the whole plan, but I think it's not worth it. You have like 8 types of cavalry to choose from over 2 types of crossbows. The way I was thinking of it is if you must produce foot archers then it's DAs from castles, XbowM from cities.

Any comments on the HRE and England listings ?

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Sinan: Why crossbow militia? Those are weak and have short range. Peasant crossbowmen on the other hand have long range missiles and good attack/defense.

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Do you mean pavise crossbowmen rather than peasant crossbowmen?

Peasant crossbowmen and crossbow militia are identical in range, att/def and indeed all stats.

Pavise crossbows rock, obviously, but Sinan included them in his higher tech listings.

econ, Middle Eastern Peasant Xbows have higher missile attack and defence (IIRC) than Middle Easterm Crossbow Militia. the army that I posted there for the Moors is not an easy one to play with, it was an example. I just played a custom battle with that army. It was hard, approximately 450 losses to 1000 kills, but it was FUN ! Deploy it like that, try it vs a French army, 4 Knights, 4 Xbows, 4 Artillery, 4 DFK, 4 Armored Sargeants. If you can win that easily, then it will be easier in campaign. I'm dragging this thread a bit OT maybe ?

Milan:

Front: Inzaghi
Center: Seedorf and Kaká
Rear: Cafu
General: Maldini

:laugh4:

Cost is always an issue. Always.

Code:

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type            ME Crossbow Militia
soldier          ME_Crossbow_Militia, 48, 0, 0.8
attributes      sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
stat_pri        9, 1, crossbow_bolt, 120, 30, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr    ap
stat_sec        6, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  5, 3, 0, metal
stat_heat        1
stat_mental      3, normal, trained
stat_cost        1, 330, 100, 65, 50, 330, 4, 80
armour_ug_levels 2, 3
ownership        moors
;unit_info        6, 9, 8

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Code:

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type            ME Peasant Crossbowmen
soldier          ME_Peasant_Crossbowmen, 48, 0, 0.8
stat_pri        12, 1, steel_crossbow_bolt, 160, 30, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr    ap
stat_sec        7, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  0, 4, 0, flesh
stat_heat        0
stat_mental      3, normal, trained
stat_cost        1, 400, 100, 65, 50, 400, 4, 100
armour_ug_levels 0, 1
ownership        moors, slave
;unit_info        7, 12, 4

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Above snippets show the main important stats.
ME Peasant Xbows have 40 more range than Militia Xbows, do 3 more ranged and 1 more melee damage but have 4 less armor (1 difference after upgrading armor). They also tire more slowly in deserts and cost 70 more to hire but have the same low upkeep.

Middle Eastern ones right? Econ21 was referring to regular European xbows. Moorish militias of all types are almost on par with professionals.

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Originally Posted by dopp

Middle Eastern ones right? Econ21 was referring to regular European xbows.

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Don't mind me - I was being ignorant and inattentive. :embarassed:

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Moorish militias of all types are almost on par with professionals.

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I did not know that - I will have to study my FAUST; I only really know the two factions I've played (England & HRE).

I have'nt played much of the Moors either, but I thought I'd give it my best shot.
That list can definetely be improved. Oh well.... back to the drawing board gents.
I'll Make some more armies out of that list and see how it looks.

Danes:
Spears: Obdushaer
Swords: Dismounted Chivalric Knights
Assult: Norse Axemen
Missile: Norse Archers
Missile Cav: Mounted Crossbowmen (If I remember correctly)
Heavy cav: Norse War Clerics


The danes are great though, cous they get Norse Swordsmen and Dismounted Huscarls very early, and these totally own everything else at the time.

Sinan,

Up until Camel Gunners become available, I seldom build cav in a fort with the Moors. Since they can produce desert cav in cities I tend to build the race tracks and then start kicking out the Jav Cav. I've found them to be highly effective against most enemies.

I've found that forts are very good for turning out both Desert Archers and Crossbows. I tend to go with the archers though as their faster rate of fire fits better with my fast pace of battle.