Isn't "Attic" culture just being more specific (More Athenian). Would saying he loved "Greek" as a general term really be that much of a crime on history?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorian
Serious question btw
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Isn't "Attic" culture just being more specific (More Athenian). Would saying he loved "Greek" as a general term really be that much of a crime on history?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorian
Serious question btw
I speak the english language, I communicate in this forum using the english language. If, by any means I conquer the world would I make my subjects speak english? It is a flawed theory in any sense of the word.Quote:
Originally Posted by tapanojum
Normans who conquered England were french speaking. In a few years, English became the language of anyone but them. Pretty soon they spoke english as well.
Vikings who conquered Russia, spoke Swedish. In two generations they were speaking Russian.
or to make a more subtle example, the greatest Kushana emperor, Kanishka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanishka
We know that Kanishka was tutored from an early age by a greek "Paidagogos"=tutor. He was fluent in greek from an early age. Yet, when growing up he dropped that language, in favor of bactrian language (present day Pashto) so that most of his people would understand it, as the big majority of his people spoke it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
Alexandros would too, if the majority of his people didn't speak in greek. Romani emperors spoke in greek and later made it their state language in ERE.
Thus I stand by my word that...
-The greatest conqueror of the world WOULDN'T speak any language which wasn't his own, or the overwhelming majority of his people's. Why would he spread a language throughout the world that wasn't his?
The main problem with 'Greek' as in 'Hellen' lies in the fact that 'Hellas' may or may not refer to the whole of 'Greece'. It also has the far more 'bounded' meaning of 'Southern Greece' i.e. the lands of the main city-states of mainland Greece.
In disjunction with Makedonian, or Dorian or whatever - it is used to denote the difference between the highly urbanized, city-state structured south of the Greek mainland, including (and for the most part restricted to) the Peloponessos. Thereby excluding Makedonia, Epeiros and Thessalia. Furthermore is separates the West from the East - Europe begins with Hellas.
I do not know whether or not it is true, but to me it seems as if this separation is a left-over from the Persian wars -- in which Hellas came to be associated with free peoples; as opposed to the vassal states to the north.
In general sense the word Hellas separates the original (European) mother-states from the colonies - but AFAIK both 'colonists' & 'Hellas-inhabitants' were considered to be equally Greek. (Though this may vary from colony to colony.) It is also a very strong separation from 'Thracians' & 'Illyrians'. (Again, roughly, a north-south devision.)
It's a bit like the Anglo-Saxon adjective today. You can use to describe USA + UK; but you may also want to restrict it to the counties of Essex, Sussex, and [*edit* the former Anglo-Saxon kingdom of] Wessex.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmacq
For sake of caution, how emotional he may appear in his some posts, I don't regard keravnos a nationalist fanatic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre
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Thank you Μουσαφίρη,
I shouldn't have watched that damn video, that's all.
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I'm not μουσαφίρης/مسافر, just a poor lonely مظفر/νικεφόρος. ~:mecry:
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It's a complicated question, "Who were the Macedonians?" "Were they Greek?" and there are perfectly valid arguements for both camps depending on your perspective.
Hammond was certainly the greatest Scholar of Northern Greece and his History of Macedonia has an extraordinary amount of information in it which is very useful. Unfortunately that information is woven together with a lot od unfounded supposition and weakly supported reasoning. Hammond may have been exactly right about Macedon and Epirus but there is absolutely no way to substantiate many of his claims.
For example, his speculations of the foundation-myth of the Argead kings is only speculation and has no concrete historical or archaeological support. Philip may well have been an Argive Temenid but there is no proof at all. There is also zero proof that Alexander I took part in the Olympic games, from Olympia, and the only source for the story is Herodotus. Herodotus may have been bang-on or it may be yet another case of the great man being fed a line.
Having said that, I don't think anyone actually knows what happened to the Illyrians and whether the Albanians are descended from them. Certainly there is good exidence Alexander would have had Illyrian blood from both parents. The political situation being what it was intermarriage between the various Northern tribes was very common. For much of it's history Macedonia was pathetically weak and fragmented, there is no better example of this than the diplomatic dance forced onto Philip II when he took the throne.
Ancient Macedon lies within the bounds of modern Hellas so I suppose that makes the descendants of the ancient inhabitants Greek. Those that we think of as Greeks certainly didn't see it that way until Philip II turned up with the greatest army their land had ever seen.
I don't want to be a pedant, but there's no such county as Wessex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
Isn't that whole term anglo-saxon coming under because so few are actually descended from them ? I remember reading something that a majority of UKer's are still pretty much all celtic .
I'd say most of the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish are Celtic. Most of England, save for say the counties of Cumbria and Cornwall are Anglo-Saxon.
Νικηφόρε, sorry... :shame:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre
So far as Epeiros and Makedonia are concerned, I am certain that all ruling class had intermingled illyrian and greek and paionian and thracian blood.
That is a given.
So far as the Southern Greeks, they called the northeners greeks whenever it suited them. There are many steles calling Makedonians greeks (too tired to look them up at Hammond right now), especially when they sought their alliance. Sparta had no problem sending aid to "brother dorians" to aid against their war on Athenians during the Peloponnesian war. Why those are never mentioned and everyone sticks to sore looser Demosthenes and his allusions of grandeur, I will never know. It was just politics, to call the northeners greek or barbarians.
It is truth that certain parts of Hammonds' work (it is immense after all) have been surpassed by certain novel theories and/or facts on the ground. The greatest bulk of his work, however, remains the standard of Makedonian history.
Yeah you're right: what I meant is that kingdom which once existed there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Horst Nordfink
I guess I'm a bit nationalistic too when it comes to sinophile's . I'm about to bare minimum get purged over at gfaq's for some comments . Didn't really mean them but this dude Sorcy I want to take down .
Some of the comments I said weren't nice either .
Actually the majoriety of the population are pre-Celtic, there are however people of Celtic decent in Devon and Cornwall, as well as Wales, Scotland and Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Horst Nordfink
The thing is, it's usually Celtic on the father's side, i.e. they came here and took local women. It's now rockoned that there were only around 200,000 Germanic invadors, vs 2,000,000 Romano-Britons.
Not a crime but a general misconception. You see, when most people think of "Ancient Greek civilisation" democracy, science, art, philosophy comes to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by tapanojum
And exactly this argument is used by Pan-Salvist, Pan-Albanians or whatever else to detach ancient Macedonia from ancient Greece.
However, apart from science, most art, philosophy and democracy were purely Athenian. For example we all know how different the Spartans were. Aitolians lived in villages, not cities, Thessalians were also uncultured and horse-riders, most cities had some kind of monarhic or oligarchic rule.
All this makes a large part of the arguments used by the "non-Greek Macedonians" side invalid.
Btw, Tellos sums it all up rather nicely.
LOL, I made the same mistake once.Quote:
I'm not μουσαφίρης/مسافر, just a poor lonely مظفر/νικεφόρος.
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:laugh4: Take it easy guys. :yes: Poor lonely νικεφόρος is satirical don't you think?
:medievalcheers:
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Anyone mind explaining what those terms mean? :inquisitive:
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Greek μουσαφίρης, originally Arabic مسافر, Turkish misâfir: guest; Greek νικεφόρος and Arabic مظفر (seperate words, unlike the prior being a loanword) mean victorious (also Turkish muzaffer) and my forum name is a bastardized spelling of it.
"Poor lonely conqueror" sounds funny to me. ~;p
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This is what I read on a forum in romanian about Alexander the Great and I will translate it to you.
"Alexander went in the spring of 323 BC in Babylon to discuss about the irigation plans for that area using the water from Eufrat and the administrative plans for the ports in the Persian Golf.(at that date Alexanders fleet had more than 1000 battleships and tradeships)
At a party where was remembered the death of Hercules/Heracles , Alexander was drinking wine unmixed with water(so not respecting the tradition from the greek world at that time)
It is known that only the thracians were drinking wine unmixed with water and that this way of drinking the wine was making the difference between "barbarians" and greeks."
"The fact thet Alexander prefers to drink wine unmixed with water doesn't mean he is a thracian but is a clue considered valid by many historyans.
Now:It is known that at the age of 13 Alexander begins his study with one of the most renown philosophers of all time ; Aristotle.
Let's not forget that Aristotle couldn't teach Alexander philosophy , logic , geometry , natural science or history.
Why?
Alexander didn't knew greek.
If only one of his parents would have been greeks, the child Alexander hadn't got in this situation.
So the first lesson he takes are those of greek language.
Even Aristotle was macedonian,born at Stagira in Macedonia.
His father was medic at the court of king Amyntas - grandfather to Alexander
At the age of 17 Aristotle enrolls in the Academy of Platon.
It is known that all his man he trusted and gave them key posts in the army were macedonian officers and not greeks.
This already sais a lot.
Mother of Alexander was Olympia, daughter of the king of Epeirus - king of a thracian nation.
The fighter model for Alexander was the famous warrior Achile, (the trojan war)
Mother of Alexander has a dream in which she sees her own child as the greatest king of the world.
Even from the childhood he lives in the shadow of this dream.
His mother was repeating constantly to him that this dream means that Alexander has the destiny to get further the glory of the most renowned thracian fighter of his family , Achile.
Alexander considers Achile as an ancestor on a matrilineal line."
I hope I made a good translation.
Thanks for that, an_do_89
It is always nice to know how a person is perceived in the world...I think.
No offense, but now I am waiting for the forum post that says Alexander was an alien, who had lazerbeams and used tentacled monsters to reach to India.
Your argument grows even more convincing when you add the reason they were called Normans in the first place: They were the descendants of viking conquerors (William the Conqueror being a descendant of Rollo, the first viking lord of Normandy), but had largely become French by the time William invaded England.Quote:
Originally Posted by keravnos
I daresay the vikings who went east spoke Old Norse, not Swedish, though. The vikings from present-day Denmark and Sweden spoke the same dialect, while those in present-day Norway had their own dialect.
I'd say England is/was a melting pot where it is unreasonable to label the population (or rather, the pre-colonial immigration population) with one common ethnic origin. There's a lot of Scandinavian blood there (England was settled, not just conquered by a few nobles), there's a lot of Anglo-Saxon blood, there's Celtic blood, as well as a few other bits and pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Horst Nordfink
No, he wasn't an alien, who had lazerbeams and used tentacled monsters to reach to India =)
But still, my sympathy goes for Pyrrhus. On a par with Hannibal at least. VERY underestimated figure he is. Damn you, Plutarch, for giving him a reputation he did not deserved.
It didn't seemed right to tipe other ideas as mine so I told it was a translation .Quote:
Thanks for that, an_do_89
It is always nice to know how a person is perceived in the world...I think.
No offense, but now I am waiting for the forum post that says Alexander was an alien, who had lazerbeams and used tentacled monsters to reach to India.
Ah yes and I believe Alexander the Great was thracian-->macedonian and not greek.(enaugh details in the other post )
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Alexander was an alien, who had lazerbeams and used tentacled monsters to reach to India. :clown:Quote:
Originally Posted by keravnos
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Or you could read this.
http://www.dacia.org/history/am-mac-e.html
I need to correct you. Most of the vikings (not all) that sailed east was Vikings from Sweden and they diden´t spoke old norse at all. And swedish vikings was called ruser...That´s how Russia got it´s name. Rurik that found russia was a swedish viking chief from uppland in sweden and he founded russia around the year 850..Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakkura
Well i'm tired of this pile of **** :furious3: everyone here in the balkans claims Alexander and Makedonia as their own... Alexander WAS HELLENAS GREEK the Makedones where a Hellenic Tribe (Sorry for my burst but some things make me mad)
its fairly simple. the ppl of illyria spoke illyrian, albanian is probably a language derrived from that. the elite however must have been more greek oriented, you can call it hellenised or whatever you want. the greeks at the time didn't see the makedonians as greek, they did saw the royal family as greeks. alexander must have seen himself as a greek as well, that is, before he saw himself as persian, god and whatever he saw himself like :laugh4:
indeed if you revived alexander today and got passed the linguistic problems posed by his archaic language, and say, you are the greatest of albanians, he'd first of all wouldn't know what the hell is an albanians? he would OBVIOUSLY say he's the greatest cuz he's a god, so he's alrdy the greatest of everyone, albanian, greek, persian, whatever. but then the albanian would say: but no your not god, allah is god (albanians are mainly muslim) and then he'd get all furious. how the hell would you go explain to a man that sees himself as the son of zeus that there is only one god and he isn't allowed in the party? he'd get pissed, and thats when we'd need that 0.30 cal in his kneecaps.
oh well, its funny that the albanians believe so, let them have their way if it makes them happy, i mean their economy sucks so let them cling to the thought of alexander being theirs. who knows? its the balkans...
The Balkans...... Such a long story.....