Turkish Navy getting whipped by Byzantine!!!

Grifman said:

And what would have happened to the millions of Turks living in Asia Minor? Outnumbering the Greeks, would the Greeks have made them citizens and given the right to vote? Or would they have expelled them - as was done by both sides in the war. Both sides expelled the other side - over a million Greeks had to leave Turkey and over 400,000 Turks had to leave Greece. Given that a continuing Greek population in Asia Minor only continued to provide an excuse for Greek claims to parts of the area, can't really blame the Turks for wanting them out.

You said:

Quote That was the end result of WWI. The Ottomans were defeated and the treaty that was signed was that Greece would get the areas in question.

The explusions were not part of the deal and only occurred because of the Turks breaking the treaty and to avoid additional bloodshed.[/QUOTE]


Sort of true. The Ottoman Empire signed the treaty with the Allies - but it no longer existed - the Turkish Republic did not sign the treaty and repudiated it. But none of your response deals with the issues and questions I raised. What were the Greeks going to do with all the Turks now under their rule? And the postwar treaty did not include Ankara or central Anatolia - so what were the Greeks doing invading that region?

Grifman said:

Greeks seems to think Turks were the only ones committing atrocities, but both sides were guilty of attacking and murdering civilians.

You said:

Quote Who told you this nonsense? Of course both sides were guilty. Do your homework before you pass judgment on people.[/QUOTE]

One, I wasn't passing judgement on anyone did I say anyone was wrong or evil? I was merely stating a fact. Two, who told me? Greeks did! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif There are plenty of Hellenic websites that go on and on about Turkish atrocities but never mention anything the Greeks did. Would you like some URLs? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Grifman said:

Both have been slaughtering each other for centuries. It's time to give it up and deal with each other like civilized nations. The past is done.

Quote Again, you don't know what you're talking about. The only atrocities against Turks occurred in the 1920's war. Yes, that was bad but nothing compared to what Turks did to people in their way for hundreds of years.[/QUOTE]

Who doesn't know what they were saying? I suggest you need some more Greek AND Turkish history. There were atrocities on both sides during the Greek war of independence, and further atrocities when during various Cretan rebellions against the Turks.

As to your last comment, evil is evil in God's eyes, whether it is one or a hundred.

Grifman



[This message has been edited by Grifman (edited 09-16-2002).]

Quote Originally posted by Ckrisz:
[B]"And unless you think all civilizations are equal - and I don't - I am glad I grew up in the one I did (Western) and not another one. See Hanson's latest book "Carnage and Culture" for the differences between Western and other civilizations (including Islamic) - then see if you think all cultures are equal."

First off, when did I say that all civilizations were "equal?" Please feel free to quote me.[/quote}

Ah, but the implication of your response was that civilizations are equal. Apologies if that was not what you meant.

Quote:

---

Also, I have read Hanson. He is a very good and innovative scholar, especially with his research on Greek phalanx warfare, but he also has a political axe to grind.

---

That looks to be an ad homimen without further explanation on your part. I could just as well state that his opponents have a political agenda also, could I not? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Quote That's fine and all, but CARNAGE AND CULTURE is largely an opinion piece, not a scholarly work. Hanson takes some battles and draws his conclusions from it, which is nice, but anyone else could take several other battles and draw totally different ones.[/QUOTE]

I suspect one could choose some "exceptions" to his "rule" but I don't think that would overthrow the general rule of his thesis, though I do find some parts overstated a bit. But you assert without any counter examples on our part . . .

Grifman

Heey, my ancestors were bodyguards in Constantinople, and we never received that last paycheck..

Can we file a complaint, or is it too late? =p

(Had a ancestor Viking who was down there.. =))

Quote Originally posted by cihset:
Yummy, nationalistic fueled posts, arguing about the superority of two "once great but now small and harmless" countries.

*gets popcorn*[/QUOTE]

It's almost better than picking on the French.

Grifman --- First off, I hope this discussion doesn't become a personal one, as I am not trying to turn it into one. So let's keep this aboveboard.

As for judging civilizations and cultures --- saying one is superior or not is ridiculous. Some civilizations are more advanced in certain ways than others, if you can even define what "European" or "Chinese" or God forbid "Islamic" civilization is in the first place. But saying that civilization DOES NOT EXIST outside of Europe is simply stupid. That is what I was saying.

As for VDH's political axe --- how is this an ad hominem attack? If I said VDH had the Secret Incest Vice, now THAT would be an ad hominem attack. The fact is that he writes for the National Review, an openly political magazine, as well as penning op-eds recently with clear political points in the WALL STREET JOURNAL and the WEEKLY STANDARD (another political journal). Both CARNAGE AND CULTURE and THE SOUL OF BATTLE were overtly political in nature, not to mention his new 9/11 book.

As for his opponents --- um, what opponents?

As for the original question, I've never had a problem with Byzant units of any type.

Naval battles are pretty easy. Just make sure you have more ships of an equal type --- and if you have worse ships, make sure you have at least two more. I've rarely lost any naval battle where I've outnumbered the opponent, and never with the Byzantine Navy (the Italians gave me much bigger naval problems).

Emperor Theodoripiklos IV:

Quote I hear you brother Paladin!!!!
Even today the Turks keep commiting crimes in their war against the Kurds...using western armor no less.
And their trying so bad to get into the EU that they are trying to make Turky look less Islamic.[/QUOTE]

Dude, excellent point. Check out Amnesty International, they have Turkey down as one of the most brutal abusers of human rights. http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/...UNTRIES\TURKEY

EU? God help the Europeans.


Ckrisz:

Quote So the Byzantine Emperors were protecting Western Europe for spiritual reasons? Not realizing this is tragic? Sorry, but that's both historically inaccurate and just plain funny.[/QUOTE]

You didn't understand a single word, did you? You simply don't understand the Greek Orthodox philosophy and manifest destiny perspective of the Byzantines, do you? When you learn some more about it, come back and chat with me. In the meantime, I suggest you defer to those of us who have knowledge in this subject, otherwise you just look foolish.


Quote Sorry, but I'm not in the second grade. I'm not going to respond to name-calling.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you are and yes you will. I will provoke you into it. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif


Quote As for Islam being the first religion to conquer other peoples, or gain power by conquering peoples --- perhaps you should read the Old Testament. You can then contrast Moses' treatment of the Canaanites with Umar's treatment of the Coptic Christians.[/QUOTE]

Wrong again!! Judiasm was not established by conquering other people. Judiasm originated long before Moses came along and your lack of knowledge in this regard is stunning.


Quote As for the whole Greek/Turkish thing --- I'm not even going to touch that. Suffice it to say that there was more than enough atrocities on all sides and that there's a lot more to be gained from cooperation rather than conflict.[/QUOTE]

OK, fair enough but to say that Greeks somehow committed an equal amount of atrocities is simply incorrect.


takkran:

Quote Paladin i am no turkish boy. I live in a contry that suffered a lot in the past because of the turks but you should know that many greeks served turks very well and together they oppressed the other people in the balkans.[/QUOTE]

Are you talking about the Greeks that were stolen from their parents and forced into military service under the Sultan? You think the Greeks did that willingly? Are you kidding me?


Quote And turks learned a lot of the stuff that made byzantines famos like corruption and all that. Turks may have a lot of defects but at least they are a lot more onest then greeks and they builded their empire by themselves not stealing like the greeks what roman legions conquered in the past.[/QUOTE]

That's what we call, "kooky talk". Not one single thing you've said is correct. Aren't you embarrassed?


Quote Enough about greeks look how they treat national minorities it makes me sick.
They are the real barbarians.[/QUOTE]

You need mental help. Get it, then come back and apologize for your psychotic behavior, Turkey-boy.

I hereby grant you permission to beg my forgiveness.


DantepX:

Quote I will choose the winner (Greece vs. Turkey):
I know there are some pretty hot Turkish women so right now I'm leaning towards Turkey. Post pictures of Greek babes and then I can tell you if Greece or Turkey wins.[/QUOTE]

There are alot of beautiful Greek women but keep in mind that the Turkish girls are all basically descended from Greeks. I hate to say it but it's true.


Grifman:

Quote Sort of true. The Ottoman Empire signed the treaty with the Allies - but it no longer existed - the Turkish Republic did not sign the treaty and repudiated it.[/QUOTE]

That was entirely true on my part. The Sultan spoke for the people and as such the treaty was valid. The Greeks were encouraged by the Allies to takeover their newly granted territories but screwed the Greeks over and left them with no supplies. It's a long story.


Quote But none of your response deals with the issues and questions I raised. What were the Greeks going to do with all the Turks now under their rule?[/QUOTE]

I answered your question. They would continue to live in those lands. Or they could have moved into the interior of Asia Minor where Turkey was to continue to exist. The rest of Asia Minor was given to the Armenians and the Kurds. Sadly, both of those groups have suffered massively at the hands of the Turks. I guess their suffering doesn't interest you, does it?

By the way, what nationality are you and where are you from?


Quote And the postwar treaty did not include Ankara or central Anatolia - so what were the Greeks doing invading that region?[/QUOTE]

It was a war.


Quote One, I wasn't passing judgement on anyone did I say anyone was wrong or evil? I was merely stating a fact. Two, who told me? Greeks did! There are plenty of Hellenic websites that go on and on about Turkish atrocities but never mention anything the Greeks did. Would you like some URLs?[/QUOTE]

And there are plenty of Turkish websites that mention nothing about the atrocities that they committed or the ones they are currently committing so what the hell is your point? Obviously you're just taking shots at Greeks who have continuing issues with the fact that they had suffered greatly at the hands of the Turks. Why is that? What's your agenda here? Confess, Turk-lover!!


Quote Who doesn't know what they were saying? I suggest you need some more Greek AND Turkish history. There were atrocities on both sides during the Greek war of independence, and further atrocities when during various Cretan rebellions against the Turks.[/QUOTE]

Are you totally retarded?!! In a "war of independence", anything goes. The Greeks were trying to liberate themselves from hundreds of years of Turkish oppression and you label that as an "atrocity"?!! WTF is your problem? If someone invaded and occupied the U.S., let me tell you, there's nothing I wouldn't do to the occupying troops. Atrocities? I think not.


Quote As to your last comment, evil is evil in God's eyes, whether it is one or a hundred.[/QUOTE]

There's nothing evil about freedom.

I will pray for you now.


Nightweb:

Quote Heey, my ancestors were bodyguards in Constantinople, and we never received that last paycheck..
Can we file a complaint, or is it too late? =p

(Had a ancestor Viking who was down there.. =))[/QUOTE]

No, it's not too late. I'll tell you what: After we get back into Constantinople, I'll write you the check personally. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

The Emperor requires your services one last time. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif




------------------
Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman she meets and then teams up with three complete strangers to kill again. - Marin County newspaper's TV listing for The Wizard of Oz

[This message has been edited by Paladin (edited 09-17-2002).]

*shakes head*

Paladin, you're just a sad, sad case.

I guess my prayers for you went to waste. Would you like me to try again? I'm here for you.

Belive it or not but during the Hight of the Ottoman empire , even in aISA minor the actual turks only made up 10% of the population..
The bulk of the people in the empire core were Balkan people raised as turks and deprived of their familys and home.
The bulk of these people where Greeks and Serbians.
There is not a whole lot of Turks in Turky.

Look , you give us Constantinople and all of Asia Minor and we will give you all of Cyprus..deal???? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

u want Istanbul, don't worry it is my city i'll give it to u, I own it seriously, I'll give it to u in one condition though, a trade. I'll give u guys Istanbul back, and u give me either ur mom or ur sister, whichever one is more attractive.

Also u say west stopped u from taking Ankara, come on dude, they ordered you to take ankara and end the new government and execute Mustafa Kemal, but Greeks ran back to Aegean Sea instead of running to Ankara, then they swam back to Athens.

But don't worry i know u guys hate us, bc you were under our occupation for 500 years, don't hate me for that it was my great granddaddy.

Just accept we better in fighting and stuff, and u guys are good at philosophy and all that.

history proves that since Malzikert not one defeat.

Even in our worst condition, after WW2 it took us 1 year, to get back what was ours.
I mean we took half of cyprus in one day.

U know i would have given all our lands to u , but too bad i have nowhere else to go. so to bad no deal.

Don't worry , when I Empereor of the West reclaim my empire I will do a sweeping invasion of the Balkans and Asia Minor and restore the Eastern Empire to it's orignal boundaries and to new found glory.

The Turks just don't seem deserving of Constantiople. It used to be a huge prospering city now it's just another 3nd world city. Same thing like Bagdad.

The Greeks did commit attrocites that were horrible enough for even the volunteer supporters from the west to grow disgusted and leave. But I'm pro Greece so I don't care. I think those 100,000 inhabintats of Constantople alone would cover good reason let's not forget what the turks did to the rest of the Balkans UGH.

But you see the glorious Empire of the West managed to stop the Turkish expansion, our role will soon be expanded to great glory like I said earlier.

------------------
If the world were a cake I would have ruined my appetite eating it
Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
http://www.boomspeed.com/luftwaffle/NewSig2.jpg

cor blimey - all this talk of getting Constantinople back for the Greeks sounds like a load of Jews going off and starting a new country based around some ancient holy city just because they want to.

OK, bad example...but seriously, seriously?

do people really think that this could ever happen?

[This message has been edited by Whitey (edited 09-17-2002).]

Murad:

Quote Also u say west stopped u from taking Ankara, come on dude, they ordered you to take ankara and end the new government and execute Mustafa Kemal, but Greeks ran back to Aegean Sea instead of running to Ankara, then they swam back to Athens.[/QUOTE]

OK, that's even more retarded than anything else I've read in this thread. Dude, do your homework and read up on what exactly happened. Stop reading the propaganda that you got off some Turkish website.

The West encouraged the Greeks to go out and take over the territory but after a new Prime Minister got elected in Greece that did not suit the Western Powers, they cut off the Greeks with no supplies deep into Asia Minor. They had no choice but to retreat. That's fact.


Quote But don't worry i know u guys hate us, bc you were under our occupation for 500 years, don't hate me for that it was my great granddaddy.[/QUOTE]

I don't hate you at all. I think you're retarded but I don't hate you. Besides, my neighbors are Turks and they are the nicest people in the whole neighborhood so don't carry on with these ridiculous illusions that Greek people hate Turks. The young Greeks don't get carried away with nonsense like that like the older Greeks so chill out. And as for the older Greeks, you have to keep in mind that Turkish atrocities and land-stealing matters are still fresh in their minds so how can you blame them for being unhappy about what the Turks did?


Quote Just accept we better in fighting and stuff, and u guys are good at philosophy and all that.[/QUOTE]

Is that why the Janissaries were Greeks? Is that why in WWII the under-supplied Greeks kicked the Italians out of Greece into a quarter of the way into Albania? Seriously, dude, stop embarrassing yourself like that.


Quote history proves that since Malzikert not one defeat.[/QUOTE]

Again, you're wrong. The Seljuks collapsed and disappeared so stop with the kooky talk.


Quote Even in our worst condition, after WW2 it took us 1 year, to get back what was ours.[/QUOTE]

Ah, are you that dumb? The Turks didn't fight in WWII. Like cowards, you stayed out of it and let the real men fight the war. Have you no shame?


Quote I mean we took half of cyprus in one day.[/QUOTE]

Right, and with women and children as your only opponents, do you think you would have taken any longer? I guess you must be proud of the atrocities your troops committed in Cyprus, huh? How about raping innocent women and children? Was that something for you to be proud of? Yeah, you're a real man.


Quote U know i would have given all our lands to u , but too bad i have nowhere else to go. so to bad no deal.[/QUOTE]

One word: Turkostan. And I'm sure we can raise enough money to pay for your transportation. When would you like to go?

By the way, I live 45 minutes from you. Can we meet at the local Denny's on 1st street where I can clarify a few things with you?

Quote Originally posted by Ckrisz:
Grifman --- First off, I hope this discussion doesn't become a personal one, as I am not trying to turn it into one. So let's keep this aboveboard.[/QUOTE]

Ok, don't think I have been insulting or called you any names . . .

Quote As for judging civilizations and cultures --- saying one is superior or not is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

Really? So if I say that a civilization based upon 1930-1945 Nazi Germany and Hitlerian ideals of racial supremacy and govt oppression is inferior to a culture based upon one of more or less equal opportunity and equality (and yes, they all had their own flaws) such as the US, England, France, Belgium, or Netherlands of the same time, then I would be incorrect? Surely you jest?

Are you saying it wouldn't have really mattered if Germany had won World War 2 and that there would be nothing wrong with a civilization based upon such a social and political ideal in comparison with those it conquered and replaced? I just want you to be perfectly clear about this http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Quote Some civilizations are more advanced in certain ways than others, if you can even define what "European" or "Chinese" or God forbid "Islamic" civilization is in the first place. But saying that civilization DOES NOT EXIST outside of Europe is simply stupid. That is what I was saying.[/QUOTE]

I would agree. However, I think you took the poster too literally. I suspect if you questioned him further he would agree that other civilizations existed - he was just happy that the Western one "was saved" http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Quote As for VDH's political axe --- how is this an ad hominem attack?[/QUOTE]

You made an argument against his person, rather than his argument - hence the label "ad hominem". I don't think you have to be insulting to use an ad hominem argument - that is just the most common way.

"Ad hominem fallacies take a number of different forms, though all share the fact that they attempt to re-focus attention, away from the argument made and onto the person making it."

You dismissed his argument by saying that VDH had a "political axe to grind" without even providing any specific counter arguments or examples . . .


Quote As for his opponents --- um, what opponents? [/QUOTE]

Um, yourself . . . http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Grifman



[This message has been edited by Grifman (edited 09-17-2002).]

Quote That was entirely true on my part. The Sultan spoke for the people and as such the treaty was valid. The Greeks were encouraged by the Allies to takeover their newly granted territories but screwed the Greeks over and left them with no supplies. It's a long story.[/QUOTE]

No, not "totally true". The Ottoman Empire no longer existed. Hence any treaty signed by such an entity was invalid. In addition, the Sultan was not the legal head of any govt as he was not recognized by the new Turkish Republic. No country, no head of gov't, no treaty. It's that simple - at least for most people . . .

Quote I answered your question. They would continue to live in those lands. Or they could have moved into the interior of Asia Minor where Turkey was to continue to exist.[/QUOTE]

No, this is your first attempt to answer my questions and your responses are rather naive. Do you really believe that the Greek govt was prepared to make millions of Turks citizens and give them the right to vote in areas they conquered from the Turks if they had been successful? Or was ethnic cleansing more likely on the agenda? Please don't be so naive and try to foist such responses upon us.

Quote The rest of Asia Minor was given to the Armenians and the Kurds. Sadly, both of those groups have suffered massively at the hands of the Turks. I guess their suffering doesn't interest you, does it?[/QUOTE]

What part of Asia Minor. The Greeks were invading central Anatolia - didn't leave much room for the Turks after all the subtractions you were talking about. But maybe the Greeks weren't really concerned about that? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

No, not in this debate. The sufferings of the Armenians and Kurds is not the topic. If you wish to discuss that, then start a separate thread. But don't change the subject . . .


Quote By the way, what nationality are you and where are you from?[/QUOTE]

Why, it is irrelevant. Either I have the facts or I don't - my nationality is irrelevant. But so you don't whine anymore and use it as a smokescreen for your own lack of facts, I'm an American, English/German/Scotch-Irish, whose family has been here since the late 1600's. Satisfied?

So what's yours? Or does YOUR BIAS betray you? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Quote It was a war. [/QUOTE]

Oh, so that justifies everything. Good, just remember that when Turks use that excuse for their atrocities and massacres, "It was war". Will you accept it from them as easily as it rolls off your lips . . . http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Quote And there are plenty of Turkish websites that mention nothing about the atrocities that they committed or the ones they are currently committing so what the hell is your point? Obviously you're just taking shots at Greeks who have continuing issues with the fact that they had suffered greatly at the hands of the Turks. Why is that? What's your agenda here? Confess, Turk-lover!![/QUOTE]

Time to grow up and get over it, little boy. Yes, I'm taking shots at someone who, silly, boy, still thinks Constantinople should be Greek! That's absurd, it's been Turkish for hundreds of years now. Maybe Germans should be demanding the parts of Germany that went to Poland after WW2, or maybe Spain should reclaim Cuba, or the British should still be claiming all of North America, LOL!

Funny, I don't know any Turkish people personally, so calling me a "Turklover" is a bit silly and immature on your part - but based upon your language, mature debate doesn't seem to be one of your strong points. OOOh, you called me "Turklover"! I think I'll go home and cry! ROFLAMAO!


Quote Are you totally retarded?!! In a "war of independence", anything goes. The Greeks were trying to liberate themselves from hundreds of years of Turkish oppression and you label that as an "atrocity"?!! WTF is your problem? If someone invaded and occupied the U.S., let me tell you, there's nothing I wouldn't do to the occupying troops. Atrocities? I think not.[/QUOTE]

Call me retarded? LOL! Do you realize what you've done here, silly boy. Do you realize that Turks consider the 1920-1922 war against the Greeks as THEIR war of independence? Let me quote you again, "in a war of independence, anything goes . . ." Do you realize you just justified every Turkish atrocity of the 1920-22 war, every expulsion of a Greek family from their home, every massacre, every rape, the burning of Smyrna, the murder and mutilation of the Archbishop? Why - because every Turk can now say "in a war of independence, anything goes" - and a Greek told me so!

How intelligent - by your own words you showed that you are no better than those you condemn. What you used to justify your own atrocities can be used by your opponents to justify theirs. Congratulations for playing the part of the fool. You've made the point I was trying to make the whole time - and it's so nice when my opponent makes my point for me. Again, thanks . . .

Grifman

i'll meet u any time, dude tell me when and where,

by the way i meant WW1, and

i meant defeats by greeks or byzantines

Come you guys cool it.
I'm Austrian and want the Austrians to get back their beautiful empire too. But unfortuanatly that ain't gonna happen. Austria is now a shriveled rement of it's former glory. And this happened less than 100 years ago too.

I love greek culture so I'm baisd for them. I belive that Istanbul/Constantinople should go back to them. Asia minor should remain in Turkish hands now just because they've been so Turkeyed.

I also realize that the Greeks were conquered 500plus years ago but then again the greeks had been there for 1000s years before and have every right to be there. As for Asia Minor though the greeks truly lost that about 1000 years ago and the culture isn't quite like the culture in mainland greece. I know that greek settlements have been on the coast line there for 1000s years (Trogans etc) the Turks and Persians have also had settlements there also. Anyhow what does greece need Asia Minor for. There is no point to have a small foreign ruling class because that would result in the same cultural problems that have been occuring in Hungary for 100s of years.


Well I hope I haven't bored too many people with my rambling.

------------------
If the world were a cake I would have ruined my appetite eating it
Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
http://www.boomspeed.com/luftwaffle/NewSig2.jpg

Grifman:

Quote No, not "totally true". The Ottoman Empire no longer existed. Hence any treaty signed by such an entity was invalid. In addition, the Sultan was not the legal head of any govt as he was not recognized by the new Turkish Republic. No country, no head of gov't, no treaty. It's that simple - at least for most people . . .[/QUOTE]

Look, you can make any kind of argument you want here but the fact is that the Sultan and his officers did represent the Turkish people when they signed the treaty. The Turk republic wasn't even established until latter so your argument is baseless.


Quote No, this is your first attempt to answer my questions and your responses are rather naive.[/QUOTE]

No, you didn't pay attention the first time and it's obvious that you simply can't understand the simple explanations I'm laying out for you. Now, try again.


Quote Do you really believe that the Greek govt was prepared to make millions of Turks citizens and give them the right to vote in areas they conquered from the Turks if they had been successful? Or was ethnic cleansing more likely on the agenda? Please don't be so naive and try to foist such responses upon us.[/QUOTE]

Please don't be so full of hate that you would assume that there would be ethnic cleansing when in fact nothing in Greek history suggested any such type of behavior. After Greek independence, Turkish citizens continued to live in Greece and were not killed so your assumption is based on your own crazed ramblings.


Quote What part of Asia Minor. The Greeks were invading central Anatolia - didn't leave much room for the Turks after all the subtractions you were talking about. But maybe the Greeks weren't really concerned about that?[/QUOTE]

Do your homework. The treaty is on the internet. The boundaries are laid out. It compasses areas that we know in MTW as Rum and part of Anatolia.


Quote No, not in this debate. The sufferings of the Armenians and Kurds is not the topic. If you wish to discuss that, then start a separate thread. But don't change the subject . . .[/QUOTE]

That is the subject. The fact that the treaty laid out a homeland for Kurds and Armenians is important. Now what about those Armenians and Kurds? You didn't answer my point. Shouldn't they have had a homeland as well or are you just a hardcore Turk-luster?


Quote Why, it is irrelevant. Either I have the facts or I don't - my nationality is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

True, but I would like more ammo. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif


Quote But so you don't whine anymore and use it as a smokescreen for your own lack of facts, I'm an American, English/German/Scotch-Irish, whose family has been here since the late 1600's. Satisfied?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, sure but just because you have a pro-Turkish perspective doesn't make history any different. Actually, I'm not even sure what the hell your point is in all this. Can you just make it and stop with the revisionist historical stuff?


Quote So what's yours? Or does YOUR BIAS betray you?[/QUOTE]

American-Eastern Roman. How's that?


Quote Oh, so that justifies everything. Good, just remember that when Turks use that excuse for their atrocities and massacres, "It was war". Will you accept it from them as easily as it rolls off your lips . . .[/QUOTE]

No, it doesn't justify anything. It's an explanation. War sucks (except for MTW). Bad things happen. What else can be said?


Quote Time to grow up and get over it, little boy. Yes, I'm taking shots at someone who, silly, boy, still thinks Constantinople should be Greek! That's absurd, it's been Turkish for hundreds of years now. Maybe Germans should be demanding the parts of Germany that went to Poland after WW2, or maybe Spain should reclaim Cuba, or the British should still be claiming all of North America, LOL![/QUOTE]

Listen doofus, all I said was it would be nice to see something that was Greek for 3,000 years become Greek again. Why is it a problem for you that I lament the loss of land that had been part of Greek heritage? I mean, what is exactly your problem? Seriously, you took a closing remark and went nuts over it. Heck, it wasn't even addressed to you yet you took it as an opportunity to tell us your version of history. Thanks, but no thanks, you're boring us.


Quote Funny, I don't know any Turkish people personally, so calling me a "Turklover" is a bit silly and immature on your part - but based upon your language, mature debate doesn't seem to be one of your strong points. OOOh, you called me "Turklover"! I think I'll go home and cry! ROFLAMAO![/QUOTE]

Who cares if you know one or not? I know several Turks and they are the nicest people in the neighborhood. So don't assume things like that because it just makes you look stupid and frustrated. But if you would take the time to research this issue you would find that the govt. of Turkey has been responsible and continues to be responsible for many atrocities.

Are you not aware of the fact that Amnesty International has them listed as one of the worst offenders of human rights?

Are you one of those people that deny the Armenian genocide ever occurred?

What about the rapes and murderers and land stealing in Cyprus by Turkish troops and the Turkish govt's. continued defiance of the U.N. resolution demanding the withdrawal of Turkish troops?

At least be honest here with us.


Quote Call me retarded? LOL! Do you realize what you've done here, silly boy. Do you realize that Turks consider the 1920-1922 war against the Greeks as THEIR war of independence?[/QUOTE]

OK, stop. Point to one reference where Turks consider that to be their "war of independence". I've never heard that. Besides, anyone can claim a war of independence for anything. The fact is that by treaty Asia Minor was divided and the Greeks were encouraged by Western powers to take that territory. Did the Greeks commit some atrocities while doing so? Yes, and I say that was wrong.


Quote Let me quote you again, "in a war of independence, anything goes . . ." Do you realize you just justified every Turkish atrocity of the 1920-22 war, every expulsion of a Greek family from their home, every massacre, every rape, the burning of Smyrna, the murder and mutilation of the Archbishop? Why - because every Turk can now say "in a war of independence, anything goes" - and a Greek told me so![/QUOTE]

That's plainly stupid. I never said rape or killing civilians was OK. Those are your deranged words. I'm talking about using every tool at your disposal in dislodging an enemy army. That's it. No civilians getting attacked.


Quote How intelligent - by your own words you showed that you are no better than those you condemn. What you used to justify your own atrocities can be used by your opponents to justify theirs. Congratulations for playing the part of the fool. You've made the point I was trying to make the whole time - and it's so nice when my opponent makes my point for me. Again, thanks . . .[/QUOTE]

You're welcome for being a complete idiot. You twisted everything I said and completely misunderstood even the simplest concepts. You're clearly an apologist for Turkish crimes against humanity and you should be ashamed of yourself.

I will now stop and pray for your immortal soul which will doubtless be burning in hell in a very short time. I'm your only chance of salvation so get your head out of your under-region and listen up.

Murad:

Quote i'll meet u any time, dude tell me when and where,[/QUOTE]

OK, what's the best way to reach you? Next time I'm down there, I'll let you know.

spmetla:

Quote Come you guys cool it.[/QUOTE]

Since I have respect for you, I will lay off responding to Grifman in kind with harsh words. If he wants to further this conversation with facts that's fine but I'm not even sure what his agenda is in making an issue of all this. Can you tell me?

All I said was that it would be nice to see Constantinople back in Greek hands and the guy went nuts over it.


Quote I'm Austrian and want the Austrians to get back their beautiful empire too. But unfortuanatly that ain't gonna happen. Austria is now a shriveled rement of it's former glory. And this happened less than 100 years ago too.[/QUOTE]

While Austria is not the land-mass giant it once was, it is a beautiful country with a rich heritage and the Austrians are responsible for stopping the Turks at the gates of Vienna. For that, Europeans should be thankful. Too bad they weren't around alot earlier to help the Byzantines stop the Turks in Asia Minor. That would have been quite nice.


Quote I love greek culture so I'm baisd for them. I belive that Istanbul/Constantinople should go back to them. Asia minor should remain in Turkish hands now just because they've been so Turkeyed.[/QUOTE]

I agree. I would like to see Eastern Thrace, which includes Constantinople back in Greek hands. Sadly, the best chance Greece had was in 1922 and that opportunity was lost.


Quote I also realize that the Greeks were conquered 500plus years ago but then again the greeks had been there for 1000s years before and have every right to be there. As for Asia Minor though the greeks truly lost that about 1000 years ago and the culture isn't quite like the culture in mainland greece. I know that greek settlements have been on the coast line there for 1000s years (Trogans etc) the Turks and Persians have also had settlements there also. Anyhow what does greece need Asia Minor for. There is no point to have a small foreign ruling class because that would result in the same cultural problems that have been occuring in Hungary for 100s of years.[/QUOTE]

True.


Quote Well I hope I haven't bored too many people with my rambling.[/QUOTE]

Not at all. I appreciate your voice of reason. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

obviously this type of post must serve a therapetic use for some nationalistic wounded pride.

It also proves that it's quite worthless to try to convince people that for emotional reasons will not open up to other people point of views (Isreal/Palestine anyone?).

I find this type of rambling disconforting. The main issue really is to have a more stable, democratic Turkey that makes more efforts to acknowledge some of its sins, and not 'giving' Constantinople back to Greeks or whoever.

By the way Grifman, I can only say you are wasting you time trying to educate an emotionnaly retarded teenager. God knows I liked Greece (spent 5 months there working) but this nationalist streak is just too much.

man, telling the whole story one sided:

first of all u guys should have defended cyprus with more troops, if u were gonna murder hundreds of turks, we needed to help them.

Ottoman empire was one of the most tolerant empires of the time. Ask that the jews, who refuged to Istanbul, after entire world rejected them. Ask them how ottoman sultan helped them that they are I mean Israel is one of our best friends.

If we were blood thirsty barbarians, why did we let the center of the orthodox church survived in Istanbul. Why is is still open nand functional. WHy are they free, go there and take a look, better then listening to stories.

Why is ur last names still survive, unlike u guys are changing turks there now, we didn't touch nobody's dignity. And families tried hard to give their sons to Janissary core, bc it was the best place to be in those times.

And all that bs about kurds, dude I am kurdish decent, and nobody hurt me in turkey, and my father became a high office holder. It is just propoganda , like u told about my views. It is all relative I guess.

Look at paletine under Ottoman rule, jews chritians, muslims living in harmony for 300 hundred years, look at that , now it is all messed up.

I am not saying they were angels, but Ottoman Empire wasn't harsh at all like u guys are describing.

I apoligize to all forumers , but these guys are badmouthing my country all post, i had to say something.

Every empire tried to conquer, still does, what makes us different. It is in the past.

One more thing, any part of Turkey, u want to get, u have to pass through 70 million Turks, we stopped you guys once with not much in our worst condition thanks to one great man, Ataturk, who was born in today's Greece ironicly, we can surely do it again.
But i don't think u guys will do such nonesense, some of u guys here don't represent all Greeks i hope for the sake of both our people.

But u guys are welcomed to visit, come on to Istanbul, great city
Great museums, like Hagia Sophia, a museum now, u can drink tea looking at bhosporus, and doo lots of fun things. I own it anyways, nobody will hurt u. But don't say anything bad about their soccer teams Galatasaray, Fenerbahce, Besiktas. Then they might hurt u , I can't even save u then.

I won't post anymore about this, as long as u guys shut up, and there is nothing to answer. If u guys start badmouthing again the i may.

Look at this bc i try to type so fast, some words are missing. Like I meant Palestine.

Funny Greek people cook well, i got this restaurant here on De Anza blvd. It is called Yiasso, it is quite good. GYros, we call it doner, it is hella nice, u guys should try.

Going back to oringinal reason of this post, not badmouthing turkey,

u can kill byzantine navy by having more ships then they have. But be careful bc too many baggalas will slow ur nazy down, so have lots of Dhows weaker but faster.

maroule, since you were unable or unwillingly to read all of my posts, let me summarize for you:

I just made a passing comment that it would have been nice if Constantinople would be back in the same hands that had owned it for 3,000 years. That's it. Then some people jumped all over for me for that because I merely expressed my opinion.

The reality is that I have nothing against Turkish people. I have friends who are Turkish. But I do have a problem with the Turkish govt. and its' continuing human rights violations. And so does Amnesty International.

That's it.

Now, if you disagree and think that Turkey does not torture prisoners and violates their human right, hey, that's your opinion and you have a right to it. But please don't try and pretend as though it's fact.

We need a little more tolerance around here and alot less anger and hatred.

I admit that I lost my temper with Grifman and made some harsh remarks. If Grifman is still reading, I want him to know that I didn't mean to make this personal and hope he can overlook it and move on.

I hope that clarifies my point a bit more.

Murad:

I'm not going to take up time responding to your points because they are so far out of whack with history that I don't think I'll even be able to get you to keep an open mind.

If you think parents in occupied Greece willingly gave up their kids to Janissaries, you really have been reading the wrong history books. Perhaps something written by authors outside of Turkey might do much to open your eyes to what really happened in that instance.

By the way, when I said I wanted to get together with you to clarify a few things, I didn't mean so I could kick your butt. I meant to get some lunch and chat about the game and stuff. Are you open to it? If so, I'll let you know when I get down there.

Unbelievable.. truly unbelievable. Almost everytime I look at Medieval forums, I see a bunch of Greeks turning it into some kind of anti-Turkish thread. They complain that we are barbarians... we "stole" their lands from them... and so much other stuff I can't keep track anymore. These Greeks just WHINE so much.. its unbearable, I don't even want to visit these forums anymore, if you Greeks want to have a good, healthy political debate, then talk in a civilized manner. Unfortunately, all you guys do is whine, and complain like little girls. Hahaha its also funny how you think Istanbul should be yours, and that it is a "third world city." Maybe after you graduate from elementary school, you can take a trip there. You will see that its much more modern than Athens in almost every possible way. I read another person saying that Greece will trade Cyprus for Istanbul.. hahahahaha... If we want, we can take Cyprus anytime, We don't need Greek permission, our military has outclassed you in every possible way for the past 1000 years. So you guys can complain all you want, but keep in mind, that your nation has always remained secondary in world affairs compared to Turkey, and will continue to do so. You can always whine about history, about our barbaric "atrocities." Let me remind you that every nation in history has made such mistakes in the past, even Greece. If you disagree, then wait until you grow up to a suitable age and study world history or something. I just find it sad that Greeks have been so brainwashed over the years that all they can think of is something anti-Turkish. I have nothing against Greeks, nothing at all, in fact I respect their history, but when a Greek comes and insults my country.. then, there's a problem. I'm very glad that politically our two countries are developing good relationships.. in fact, we even might get to host the 2008 European Championships together, who knows. This is the difference between most Greeks(not all)and Turks. We look at the future... while all you do is dwell on the past.

turken00:

Quote They complain that we are barbarians... we "stole" their lands from them... and so much other stuff I can't keep track anymore.[/QUOTE]

Ahhh, the Ottoman's did and the TR stole Cypriot land from both Greeks and Turks. It's a part of historical fact so trying to cover it up like the Armenian genocide won't fool anyone.


Quote ...if you Greeks want to have a good, healthy political debate, then talk in a civilized manner. Unfortunately, all you guys do is whine, and complain like little girls.[/QUOTE]

How can you expect us to speak "civilized" when you wallow in the gutter with your "hate speech". I know you want to muzzle people like you guys do in Turkey but this is a free speech forum so give up your attempts at stopping open debate.


Quote Hahaha its also funny how you think Istanbul should be yours, and that it is a "third world city."[/QUOTE]

Istanbul is a third world city. That's the opinion of people who have been there and have been shocked by the filth and poverty. I'm sorry you can't face the facts.


Quote Maybe after you graduate from elementary school, you can take a trip there. You will see that its much more modern than Athens in almost every possible way.[/QUOTE]

You're the only person who has ever said anything like that. I know people who did a tour of Athens and Istanbul and they all agreed that Athens is far nicer than Istanbul.


Quote I read another person saying that Greece will trade Cyprus for Istanbul.. hahahahaha... If we want, we can take Cyprus anytime, We don't need Greek permission,..[/QUOTE]

Ah, you already did. Haven't you kept up on the news since 1974? But if Turkey tries to take the rest of Cyprus, it would be a bad scene for them since the Greeks would be ready this time.


Quote ...our military has outclassed you in every possible way for the past 1000 years.[/QUOTE]

Wrong again. You lost the war of independence in the 1800's and you got your butts kicked in the Balkan Wars in 1912. So what are you smoking over there?


Quote So you guys can complain all you want, but keep in mind, that your nation has always remained secondary in world affairs compared to Turkey, and will continue to do so.[/QUOTE]

Another twisted dream of yours apparently? Turkey is hated by so many nations because of the horrible and cruel violations of human rights. Too bad Turkey can't slaughter anymore Armenians, huh?


Quote You can always whine about history, about our barbaric "atrocities." Let me remind you that every nation in history has made such mistakes in the past, even Greece. If you disagree, then wait until you grow up to a suitable age and study world history or something.[/QUOTE]

Greeks were never involved in the genocide of millions of people so again, you're wrong.


Quote I just find it sad that Greeks have been so brainwashed over the years that all they can think of is something anti-Turkish. I have nothing against Greeks, nothing at all, in fact I respect their history, but when a Greek comes and insults my country.. then, there's a problem.[/QUOTE]

Nobody was insulting your country. You're mistaken.


Quote I'm very glad that politically our two countries are developing good relationships.. in fact, we even might get to host the 2008 European Championships together, who knows. This is the difference between most Greeks(not all)and Turks. We look at the future... while all you do is dwell on the past.[/QUOTE]

I disagree with that last comment. I visit a Turkish website and it's filled with anti-Greek stuff and how glorious Turkish history is the way they crushed other nations. So, you need a wake up call to reality, and I hope this is it.

Uhh, this is the only thread I've read on these forums with a Greco-Turkish debate. I don't what magical threads your reading that make you not want to come here.



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"samishika wa nai shitte irukara saigo wa itsumo hitori to"

"I'm not lonely Because I know I'll be Alone at the end"
email me at: Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
http://www.boomspeed.com/luftwaffle/NewSig2.jpg

Yes, this is the first for me as well...

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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!