Jews: Why the animosity towards them?

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Originally Posted by TinCow

As a Jew myself, I find the above interesting. Certainly, there is no single race of Jews. However, I very much identify myself on an ethnic basis as a 'Jew.' In fact, I consider myself a Jew, even though I'm an atheist. I am a Jew, but I am not Jewish. Given that fact, if it is not my religion that identifies me as a Jew, then it is a cultural and ethnic background. In my particular case, I am an Ashkenazi Jew. This is one of the two major Jewish groups in the world today, with the other being Sephardic. The Ashkenazis have a historic origin from central and eastern Europe and are the traditional Yiddish speakers known so well from history and modern comedy. This is true for my Jewish family history as well, which originated from Austria and Poland.

My family largely originated in America in New York City and I have several relatives who are the living embodiment of the New York Jew stereotype. It is not a criticism, it is simply reality. Based on what I have experienced in my life as a Jew, there is as much to classify me as a member of the Jewish race as there is to classify anyone else as a member of the African race. My family demonstrates several consistent and prominent physical features that identify them (large noses, dark hair). This seems to me to be no different than having a different skin tone. They also have cultural traditions that differentiate them from other Caucasians.

If these things do not differentiate us as a different race, what makes a race? Also, it seems like many people equate the term "race" with a negative connotation. Why is that? Simply saying someone is from a different race does not make them inferior in any way. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging our physical and cultural differences.

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You are completely correct about that, and you are also the first person I have ever met (who was not Jewish) who actually knew about the distinction between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews. I too am from an Ashkenazi heritage. (Which is where i get my kingly nose :P)
Most people aren't educated enough/don't care enough to ever study Jews enough to even realize that there are ethinic differences. They instead teach only the attrocities committed against the Jews and leave the rich (no pun intended) Jewish culture and history out entirely. And they wonder where the stereotype of Jews whining about their past comes from...(and yes, that is one I get all the time. :P)

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Originally Posted by MilesGregarius

Well, there is the argument that there is no such thing as "race", and that it is merely a social construct. Therefore, race can be defined in almost anyway one chooses. Few, if any, refer to "an English (or French or German) race" anymore, but it wasn't uncommon in the 19th Century to do so.

In this particular case race, religion, and culture all overlap. One can be a Jew by any one of the above or by any combination thereof.

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Race does not mean that one person is inferior or superior to another, but it does exist. There are basic biological differences that now even allow for them to determine people's race by their DNA.
It is hard to argue that Native Africans have darker skin than the "Caucasian".
They are real biological differences, and for the most part effect nothing more than minor facial differences, stature (which is actually a sub-race variable and not directly controlled by race), and defense against diseases.
People find it easy to ignore people's differences and deny that there is such a thing as race, than to accept and celebrate it.

And here we have another reason.
Today Israeli wice minister of defense threaten Palestinians, that Israel will make them great holocaust. When we will connect it with official Israeli politics, which is explained by "because we suffered holocaust and we have to defend ourselves" - knife is opening itself into pocket.

Most Jews never were rich or powerful. Ninety percent of Jews have lived in poverty throughout modern history.

When Jews were a nation with a territory, they perpetrated their own massacres (read your Bible).

As soon as they lost it and were dispersed, they became everyone's favourite butt of contempt, for whatever reason best suited the moment.

And because Jews stuck doggedly to their religion, their rituals and their tradition of (intellectual) learning, they were the only minority about whose deviousness both the elites and underclasses could always concur.

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As a Jew myself, I find the above interesting. Certainly, there is no single race of Jews. However, I very much identify myself on an ethnic basis as a 'Jew.' In fact, I consider myself a Jew, even though I'm an atheist. I am a Jew, but I am not Jewish.

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That reminds me of Phil Green and Fred Lieberman .

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Originally Posted by Zajuts149

The only race that matters is the human race.

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Agreed. I mean,why do we have to divide the world into black,white,arab,etc.? We're all human. That's where I leave it.

To me,it doesn't matter what color you are,what Higher Power you believe in,etc.. If you treat me with respect,I'll treat you with respect. That's my mentality and it won't change.

Nice to have people that can discuss these things in an intelligent and unbiased manner. :yes:

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Originally Posted by SpartanGlory198

Agreed. I mean,why do we have to divide the world into black,white,arab,etc.? We're all human. That's where I leave it.

To me,it doesn't matter what color you are,what Higher Power you believe in,etc.. If you treat me with respect,I'll treat you with respect. That's my mentality and it won't change.

Nice to have people that can discuss these things in an intelligent and unbiased manner. :yes:

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I too am glad that people can discuss things in an intelligent and unbiased manner, but may I ask you, what is wrong with acknowledging peoples' differences?
All I gotta do is look in a mirror to see that I am different from many other people. This to me is a source of my pride and individuality, not shame. I respect people from other races just as much as I'd respect someone who looked just like me, but I am not ashamed of my differences so much that I have to deny them.
Really, think about what you are saying, why should a black guy be ashamed of his race and who he is so much that he has to deny that he has a different race. How does that make him feel?
Though you may not be thinking of it that way, it is simply an easy way to get out of acknowledging and therefore respecting other's differences. You surely cannot respect them if you do not acknowledge them.

Vuk

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Originally Posted by SpartanGlory198

Agreed. I mean,why do we have to divide the world into black,white,arab,etc.? We're all human. That's where I leave it.

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Even though we do often discriminate based on skin color, it's not like we were definitely going to do so as we don't discriminate based on whether someone's earlobes are attached or unattached and rarely on eye color. We just have to make skin color as insignificant as eye color.

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Originally Posted by Noncommunist

Even though we do often discriminate based on skin color, it's not like we were definitely going to do so as we don't discriminate based on whether someone's earlobes are attached or unattached and rarely on eye color. We just have to make skin color as insignificant as eye color.

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Is it anymore so? Look at the different white people and all their differences. The ancient Germans hated the Romans, so they called them short and dark haired, and the ancient Romans made fun of the Germans for being tall and blonde/red haired.
When people hate people, they use everything they can to justify it, including any physical differences.
When I went to camp as a kid, I used to be made fun of cause I was tall...by the same people who made fun of my friend for being short.
It doesn't have to do with acknowledging differences, but with justifying your hate with them.
I acknowledge the difference between me and my GF (who I probably think more highly of than anyone I know). I am tall and have dark hair and skin, she is VERY short and has red hair and pale skin. (and I think she is the most beautiful girl in the world)

You know when bullies pretend that they do not see a kid they do not like, and won't talk to him, and ignore him? That is what you are doing to people of another race when you do not acknowledge their race - image how they feel.

Vuk

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Originally Posted by Noncommunist

We just have to make skin color as insignificant as eye color.

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And yet the color of your eyes was an important factor in determining whether you were part of the Nazi's superior 'Aryan' race. There is no physical feature on the human body which is exempt from discrimination. We discriminate against other people for reasons entirely separate from physical appearance. The appearance simply becomes a convenient method of differentiating the 'good' from the 'bad.' If there is no obvious physical feature to use, like skin color, less significant aspects then become the target of derision.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

And yet the color of your eyes was an important factor in determining whether you were part of the Nazi's superior 'Aryan' race.

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Reminds me of a movie I think to have seen years ago.

It was about a Jewish boy in Nazi Germany and he was trying to blend in to survive.

There was a scene with a teacher in the class and he was talking about the anatomical differences, skull measurements, what made a real Arier and that he would immediately see who wasn't one. Then he slowly walked down the class and stopped at our boy: "Now look at him'. ... "While he doesn't have blue eyes, he's a real Arier, he's brown eyes like our Fuhrer'.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

Reminds me of a movie I think to have seen years ago.

It was about a Jewish boy in Nazi Germany and he was trying to blend in to survive.

There was a scene with a teacher in the class and he was talking about the anatomical differences, skull measurements, what made a real Arier and that he would immediately see who wasn't one. Then he slowly walked down the class and stopped at our boy: "Now look at him'. ... "While he doesn't have blue eyes, he's a real Arier, he's brown eyes like our Fuhrer'.

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LOL! And the funny thing about it is, that the "Fuhrer" was so wrong about himself and his origins. The Germans and white people were not desendants of Aryans at all, and Hitler himself may very well have been Jewish. :P I wonder what he would have done if he woke up one morning and found that out. "ARRGHH! I am an evil Jew trying to ruin your country and people! A stab in the back! Lock me in a concentration camp and burn me!!" :laugh4:
lol, fun being poked here was at the short guy with the mustache, not supposed to cheapen or make fun of what the Jews went through in WWII. :P


EDIT: I learned where the word "Fuhrer" comes from in my german class today. The german verb "to lead" is "Fuhren". It was turned into a noun and became "Fuhrer". lol

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Originally Posted by Vuk

All I gotta do is look in a mirror to see that I am different from many other people. This to me is a source of my pride and individuality, not shame. I respect people from other races just as much as I'd respect someone who looked just like me, but I am not ashamed of my differences so much that I have to deny them.
Really, think about what you are saying, why should a black guy be ashamed of his race and who he is so much that he has to deny that he has a different race. How does that make him feel?
Vuk

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Perhaps I misunderstand you, but otherwise, no one should be proud not of his colour, or race, not even if he has a very handsome face. nor should one be ashamed of it. It should not be a factor in anything. If one has to be proud it should be for what he has done in his life, and his deeds.

Far as discrimination is concerned, even talking about a race of people specifically is discrimination........I mean it's like considering them different from others.

That is one reason reservations for minorities are incorrect......when you make reservations, you do it to aid that class, but you are also putting them apart from others......

Edit : What movie was it?

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Originally Posted by KrooK

And here we have another reason.
Today Israeli wice minister of defense threaten Palestinians, that Israel will make them great holocaust.

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A rather unfortunate translation-error, 'shoah' means 'disaster' in Hebrew. And he did say that, shoah, but the media doesn't seem very interested in correcting this error.

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but otherwise, no one should be proud not of his colour, or race, not even if he has a very handsome face. nor should one be ashamed of it. It should not be a factor in anything. If one has to be proud it should be for what he has done in his life, and his deeds.

Why not? I am a white person and I am proud of being white because of the acomplishement of 'my' people and the world we created for ourselves, why shouldn't a jew be proud to be a jew, or an Indian to be an Indian?

Hello asj_india,

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Originally Posted by asj_india

..Perhaps I misunderstand you, but otherwise, no one should be proud..

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It's the degree I think? Proud as in happy with/content being a good/harmless thing, and thanks to the powers that be I'm not .., as that is so inferior, being a bad thing.

One can enjoy pasta without thinking milk is disgusting?

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Edit : What movie was it?

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Sorry, I don't know. I think I was zapping the television and saw part of the movie. I only recall another part where he was older and in some sort of Hitler Jugend camp. It became difficult to keep the blend in act up there.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

LOL! And the funny thing about it is, that the "Fuhrer" was so wrong about himself and his origins. The Germans and white people were not desendants of Aryans at all, and Hitler himself may very well have been Jewish. :P

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It is a fact that he was probably a quarter Jewish, through his grandmother. He had to have known it too - I wonder what made men like Reinhard Heydrich (half Jewish, to my knowledge) do things that they did to people of their own religion?

It's an interesting discussion, to be sure.

The movie TosaInu is talking about is Europa Europa, the true story of a Jewish boy who survived by pretending to be a true-blood German. He even joined the Hitler Youth. A fabulous and moving story.

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Originally Posted by asj_india

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but otherwise, no one should be proud not of his colour, or race, not even if he has a very handsome face. nor should one be ashamed of it. It should not be a factor in anything. If one has to be proud it should be for what he has done in his life, and his deeds.

Far as discrimination is concerned, even talking about a race of people specifically is discrimination........I mean it's like considering them different from others.

That is one reason reservations for minorities are incorrect......when you make reservations, you do it to aid that class, but you are also putting them apart from others......

Edit : What movie was it?

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People should be proud of what and who they are, and there is nothing wrong with that. It is really quite hard (if not impossible) to view something in complete neutrality, humans just don't do that. They always like to put a degree tag on something (and there is not necessarily anything wrong with this). For at least most people they are either proud/"satisfied" with themselves, or in some way feel shame and reproach.
There is a different between "proud" and "hotty" you see. Being proud like all other things can be done in a bad way, but does not have to be.
And is there something wrong with discrimination? Most people don't think about it, but they discriminate all the time. If we didn't, we couldn't live. What gives things meaning is how we think of them in relation to other things, ie how different we percieve them. I like red or black hair on girls more than blonde or brunette, so what? That is discrimination, does it hurt the girls? No. I can like and respect blonde and brunette girls just as much as girls with black or red hair. (In fact, first real GF had blonde hair)
Discrimination is natural and not bad at all. What can be bad is the choices you make based on your discrimination.
To give one more cheesy example:
I see a blonde girl, I notice that she is different from the girl beside her with red hair.
No think, have I done anything wrong? Have I hurt her? No, but I did discriminate.
Now suppose that I go up to her start telling her blonde jokes and make her cry. What that I did was wrong? It was the choices that I made based on discrimination, NOT discrimination.
My discrimination did not hurt her or lower my opinion of her at all.
To kinda close a lengthy arguement, which do you prefer, Pepsi or Coke?
(Yes, that is a trick question)

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Originally Posted by Fragony

A rather unfortunate translation-error, 'shoah' means 'disaster' in Hebrew. And he did say that, shoah, but the media doesn't seem very interested in correcting this error.

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I do not agree with how the Israeli government is handling the situation OR with the what the Palestinians have been doing. Coming from an isolated stand point and at the risk of offending someone, it all seems pretty barbaric.

Just want to let you know that the State of Isreal is not representive of Jews. There are ten times the number of Jews in NYC than in Isreal, and many Jews do not agree with Zionism.
(I myself agree with some aspects, but not others)
Point being that "Jews" as an entity cannot be judged by the desicions that a select few in the National Israeli government make.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

It is a fact that he was probably a quarter Jewish, through his grandmother. He had to have known it too - I wonder what made men like Reinhard Heydrich (half Jewish, to my knowledge) do things that they did to people of their own religion?

It's an interesting discussion, to be sure.

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Many (as in about 3/4) of Hitler's top aids and government officials were Jewish. This could be because they wanted to get a high place in the government and conceal their identity, to try and counter some of the wrong that the Nazis were doing. Unfortunately this theory cannot apply to all as some were directly responsible for the horrors done to other Jews.

I have read countless theories about this in a class last year, and all I can say is that I have no idea in hell. :P
Let me just say this though, to attribute it to the entity "Jews" would be very inaccurate and ignorant. You have people of all races, nationalities, and religions who have done good and bad. To attribute the actions of a group of evil people to a race/religion/etc wide "conspiracy" is absurd. You can just as easily say that all whites are bad because a lot (most) of Nazis were white. We know that there were good whites inside Germany and certainly in allied countries who were shocked at what was done, and we also know the same about Jews.
Individuals make their own choices, and cause some whites and jews decided to murder jews means only that THOSE white and jews were wrong/evil/whatever you wish to call it. In fact, if the Jews (like Hitler) responsible you the attrocities really believed what they said about Jews (which isn't far fetched as much of the German public did), they may have "renounced" their identity as Jews and turned on their own people. That may be a little far fetched, but it is just a theory. :P
Theories can go on and on about it, whatever though, I think it is more the work of a phycologist than a Historian.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Many (as in about 3/4) of Hitler's top aids and government officials were Jewish.

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Sources please...

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Originally Posted by Tristuskhan

Sources please...

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I have read that in more than one book, though I cannot provide a source of the top of my head. I also remember reading that his top three were (whether they new it or not) Jewish.
Guess we will never know if any of them knew they were Jewish, but my guess would be "no".

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Göring had among his patrilineal ancestors Eberle/Eberlin, a Swiss-German family of high bourgeoisie. They were originally Jewish financiers who converted to Christianity in the 15th century and had numerous progeny in German speaking countries.

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Source = Wikipedia :P
I was not able to find much there about his other cabinet members and military officers, but I read it before in reputable, scholarly articles and books. I will see if I cannot find some better sources. (Of course you could always search yourself also :P)

I do not agree with how the Israeli government is handling the situation OR with the what the Palestinians have been doing. Coming from an isolated stand point and at the risk of offending someone, it all seems pretty barbaric.

Just want to let you know that the State of Isreal is not representive of Jews.

What is there to be ashamed of, Israeli's are a better person then me at least I wouldn't have been quite so patient. Israel pulls back, hamas claims victory, they start launching rockets again. Israel represents the jews perfectly really always in the maelstrom somewhere.

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Originally Posted by asj_india

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but otherwise, no one should be proud not of his colour, or race, not even if he has a very handsome face. nor should one be ashamed of it. It should not be a factor in anything. If one has to be proud it should be for what he has done in his life, and his deeds.

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I think this strikes to the heart of the issue here, the fact that identifying oneself as a particular race, even if it's in a positive light, is ultimately detrimental to the cause of ending racism. Why do 'White Power' and 'Black Power' have such radically different connotations; why might one cause a liberal to cringe while the other makes him raise his fist in sympathy? It isn't an essential, actual difference between the physical makeup of two groups of people, it's a cultural and economic difference, a power differential which allows simple minds to crudely extend the analogy of the powerless along the lines of supposed visible differences.

Race identity is, in every substantive quality, nonsense. The term 'race' is so generic, so broadly applicable that any attempt to examine it in details drives off all possible import or meaning. Every living human can be traced, through their mitochondria, to a single female ancestor (Estimates of how far back this requires us to go are usually in excess of 300,000 years, if you're curious). The differences between the most extreme of isolated populations is still nowhere near enough to prevent interbreeding, and such interbreeding will, within three or four generations in a single direction, produce offspring indistinguishable from the 'race' into which an individual might choose to marry. That's not a theory, it's a frequently demonstrated fact.

Race identity is the phrenology of the 20th (And perhaps 21st) century. Don't get caught up in it. :beam:

:egypt:

Only seems to strike it, because if I have to judge only on my own deeds then why exactly should I have any respect for my father, happens to be the guy that gave my mother vital input but it wasn't me that did it. Such is the same with the culture of the country where I live.

What does racial identity have to do with respect for your parents? :inquisitive:

:egypt:

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

What does racial identity have to do with respect for your parents? :inquisitive:

:egypt:

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If only your deeds count why should you respect your parents? We aren't robots we are human beings, and we have parents and so did they and all that is why we are here and that happened a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

It is hard to argue that Native Africans have darker skin than the "Caucasian".

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I'll take that challenge. Wait while I get my research sorted.

Err, since you seem to be having trouble reading what I've written, I'll answer my own question; racial indentity has nothing to do with respecting your parents. No statement in any of my posts to this thread has anything to do with respect for your parents. I haven't made the case that "only your deeds should count," or anything even in the same galaxy as that claim.

:strawman3:

Go back, read again, and reconsider your response.

:egypt:

Was merely and example and it didn't work. You don't care but I do and I guess that's all there is.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I do not agree with how the Israeli government is handling the situation OR with the what the Palestinians have been doing. Coming from an isolated stand point and at the risk of offending someone, it all seems pretty barbaric.

Just want to let you know that the State of Isreal is not representive of Jews.

What is there to be ashamed of, Israeli's are a better person then me at least I wouldn't have been quite so patient. Israel pulls back, hamas claims victory, they start launching rockets again. Israel represents the jews perfectly really always in the maelstrom somewhere.

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Isreal is being messed over good by Palestine and the liberal media, and I applaud them in a lot of their moves. There are some core issues and individual decisions that have been far less than praiseworthy. As I said though, that concerns a nation, not Jews. I would rather not discuss it as the discussion could be endless, and I would probably just end up regurgitating thousands of books and articles I have read on the subject as it is very complicated and most people know VERY little of it.

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

I think this strikes to the heart of the issue here, the fact that identifying oneself as a particular race, even if it's in a positive light, is ultimately detrimental to the cause of ending racism. Why do 'White Power' and 'Black Power' have such radically different connotations; why might one cause a liberal to cringe while the other makes him raise his fist in sympathy? It isn't an essential, actual difference between the physical makeup of two groups of people, it's a cultural and economic difference, a power differential which allows simple minds to crudely extend the analogy of the powerless along the lines of supposed visible differences.

Race identity is, in every substantive quality, nonsense. The term 'race' is so generic, so broadly applicable that any attempt to examine it in details drives off all possible import or meaning. Every living human can be traced, through their mitochondria, to a single female ancestor (Estimates of how far back this requires us to go are usually in excess of 300,000 years, if you're curious). The differences between the most extreme of isolated populations is still nowhere near enough to prevent interbreeding, and such interbreeding will, within three or four generations in a single direction, produce offspring indistinguishable from the 'race' into which an individual might choose to marry. That's not a theory, it's a frequently demonstrated fact.

Race identity is the phrenology of the 20th (And perhaps 21st) century. Don't get caught up in it. :beam:
:egypt:

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A person's "race" (in common usage) can usually be identified by skin colour, facial carticture, feature size, hieght, possibly hair colour, etc. Things like that are often genetically tied to certain "races" and that has been proven by genetics. It is an "invention" of the 20/21st century, but that does not mean it is not true.
Again, there is nothing wrong with observing differences. (Like when a blonde school girl notices that there are other girls with blonde hair and some with brunette)
What is wrong is when you use this difference to justify your hate. (Like if all the blonde school girls were to stick together and tell the brunette girl that she couldn't hang with them because of her hair colour)
People use differences (of any kind) to excuse their barbaric behavior (which they have to do to themselves before they even commit their barbaric act).
It is true that if there were no differences there would be no conflict, there would only be one person. :P
Just because people target differences to excuse their hate does not mean that differences are bad. That is like saying that to prevent people from shooting us in the head we should all be decapitated. :P (I really love these 2-bit analogies :P)
Your head is not bad, the person's act of shooting it is. Likewise differences are not bad (and it is the heart of racism to say that they are), but using them to excuse wrong doing is bad.
There is nothing wrong of people being proud of their differences. The blonde and brunette can both be proud of their hair and be just as beautiful. Being proud of who you are doesn't mean that you think people with diferences are inferior.

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Originally Posted by Fenring

I'll take that challenge. Wait while I get my research sorted.

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lol, native as in 5.5k BC. I realise that portions of the Fertile Cresent were inhabited by white people, but you know very well what I mean.

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lol, native as in 5.5k BC. I realise that portions of the Fertile Cresent were inhabited by white people, but you know very well what I mean.

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You meant sub-saharan Africa vs early Indo-Europeans, right?

For the record I don't believe that Indo-Europeans where white skinned, blonde haired and blue eyed. It's best not to think in black and white, but in various shades. People further up north generally have a paler skin due to climate. Therefore it's not hard to argue that native Africans have a darker skin color than caucasians.

To be honest I thought you made a typo.