U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

When you start with "obama is an empty suit and a liar" don't complain when you get back irrelevancies. It's really the only appropriate response, besides a link to www.google.com

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This is the second time you're putting words in my mouth in as many posts. Where did I say Obama was an empty-suit and a liar and when did I use 'Obama is a far left liberal!!' as a point against him?

Edit: Ah, I see maybe it was where I said I was with SFTS. That didn't mean I agreed with every word he said, it's the throng of Obama supporters that resembles a crowd at a Britney Spears concert that I can't understand.

Thanks for the two cents tho, Lemur. I'm not sold on Obama but what you said is sound. For anyone else I might have upset by asking why Obama was so great, I'd like to apologize for the vicious migraine it caused.

So does this mean Obama votes Gah!? :gah2:

My problem with Obama is, first and foremost, that he views the Federal government as THE answer for a majority of issues. This is a fairly broadly held view and is the dominant view of the Democrat party. In that, he is a fair nominee for them. As I take the "government is a necessary evil to be minimized as much as practicable" stance, I don't see eye to eye with him.

Obama has been, so far, more of a "mirror" than an empty suit. His choice to stand for hope and change and to keep the specifics to a minimum was brilliant rhetorical strategy. For quite some time, he let everyone project their hopes for the future on him without making ANY specific claims/plans about what he'd do. Worked like a charm too -- bright guy.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Well Lemur, he certainly did have a stance some 800 times, but another 130 times he actually was just present even on bills he sponsored and which were really along the same idea he supported. Maybe he had some conflicting interests somewhere that we don't know about?

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There's also the claim that he was "handed" sponsorship of bills, that had most of the legwork done already, as resume padding. I posted a link to that effect in the other thread- it's buried in there somewhere...

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Here's a rigorous ranking of conservative/liberal votes in the 109th and 110th Congress, giving a more realistic picture of just how Obama and McCain score. Just a little reality check after the broad trumpeting of National Review's highly suspect numbers.

Voteview uses an extremely rigorous methodology for ordering Senators from most liberal to most conservative which to my mind produces some fairly intuitive results. (Five most liberal senators thus far this year? Russ Feingold, Chris Dodd, Bernie Sanders, Sheldon Whitehose, and Ted Kennedy).

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Sorry, I just caught this- the 'most liberal' label was not from the National Review, but the National Journal- an avowedly non-partisan publication aimed at Washington insiders. Their methodology was completely transparent and even better, blind. I posted their entire methodology in the last thread, obviously you didn't read it.

"Liberal" is an inherently subjective term, but whether Obama is the most liberal, or the tenth most liberal he's still more liberal than the vast majority of even his Democrat peers. Sasaki seems to have embraced this, but you still seem to be in the denial phase. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Oh good lord, you ain't gonna let it go, are you? Okay, deep breath, let's do this again:

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Thats it? That is what makes you believe he would be a good president? Because he beat Hillary and he's not as liberal as he's portrayed? You don't have very high standards huh?

The only thing you mentioned that garners any sort of merit is his work with nuclear nonproliferation. Unfortunately, he just put his name next to legislation that Dick Lugar authored. Wow. Well done, Mr. Obama.

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FactionHeir, you can debate the particulars of Obama's record as you like. I was specifically responding to Panzer's petulant rhetorical flourish of, "Somebody respond to me right now or I'm going to run around declaring that nobody can articulate any reason why Obama should be President."

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Oh quit bitching. This thread is about discussion on the candidates and if you're going to constantly praise Mr. Obama or post positive articles that echo your own opinions, you should be able to back that up with a minimum of whinging.

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Not that our resident fascist would ever vote for a Democrat, much less one who has attended a black church, which makes the whole exercise reek of pointlessness. Seriously, I'm done giving our local Obama-haters the "why." This is the third time I've done it, and there is never any substantive response, and there is never any indication that they've even read what I posted. It's just this reflexive barking of "there's no substance to the guy" and then silence when someone throws some substance up. I'm sick of it, and it's both intellectually lazy and dishonest.

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This is such a cop out. The point of this forum is to state and defend your views. Its slightly scary that you're spending more time attacking me, including veiled accusations of racism, instead of defending the man you've championed for months.

Contrary to your accusations, I truly want to know what makes Obama supporters believe he is a good choice. I certainly didn't support Hillary, but I understood why she was a contender. This man isn't an empty suit, he's naked! I even visited his website, which left me even more puzzled. The man has 4 paragraphs on Iraq... I wonder how many of his ardent supporters have even visited the issues section on his website. Have you?

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I also note with amusement that I am never called upon to justify why I like McCain, nor any demand to prove why he is a decent choice for CIC. No, it's just Obama, and it's the same damn line of rhetoric every time, a song without variation.

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Thats because its quite easy to understand. McCain certainly wasn't my first choice, but I understand why he is the Republican candidate. Whether I agree with his positions or not, the man has a record - an actual record - you know, a way in which to judge his merits. He's the anti-Obama. Real experience and true bipartisanship, when it really matters and not just on feel-good bills.

In other news, Obama's VP search team leader Johnson has resigned.
Question is, did he resign on his own accord or because people within his camp were starting to feel the heat and figured Obama's excuses weren't going to hold up?

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Thats it? That is what makes you believe he would be a good president? Because he beat Hillary and he's not as liberal as he's portrayed?

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Is that the sum total of what I said, young fascist?

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

The only thing you mentioned that garners any sort of merit is his work with nuclear nonproliferation. Unfortunately, he just put his name next to legislation that Dick Lugar authored. Wow. Well done, Mr. Obama.

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Yup, that's all he did. Boy, you sure know your stuff.

In August 2005, Obama traveled with Sen. Richard Lugar (R-IN) to nuclear and biological weapons destruction facilities in the former Soviet Union, where they urged the destruction of conventional weapons stockpiles. With Lugar, Obama introduced the Cooperative Proliferation Detection, Interdiction Assistance, and Conventional Threat Reduction Act, which passed as part of the Department of State Authorities Act of 2006.

But I guess he's really just an empty suit riding the coattails of a hard-working white man, correct?

Obama impressed many observers with his initial effort, some tough but fair questioning of John Bolton during those controversial UN ambassadorial nomination hearings, and our sources report that Obama has encouraged serious non-proliferation experts. Says one: "From my colleagues who traveled to the FSU with him, I gather he was deeply engaged, had done his homework, asked substantive and insightful questions...Good to hear."

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Its slightly scary that you're spending more time attacking me, including veiled accusations of racism, instead of defending the man you've championed for months.

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I assure you, if the forum rules were different, there would be no veils, thin or otherwise. Let's just put it this way: Marxists and communists have an association with mass murder. Maybe it's not the ideology's fault, but there it is. Between Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, they just seem to wind up murdering millions of people. Can't help themselves. Fascists, on the other hand, seem to wind up hating and killing anyone of a different ethnicity than themselves. Maybe the fascist ideology is wonderful, but it just kinda tends to have this side-effect.

So when the resident self-declared fascist embarks on a one-man jihad against a candidate with a different skin color from his own, well, the implications are obvious.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

He's the anti-Obama. Real experience and true bipartisanship, when it really matters and not just on feel-good bills.

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So nuclear non-proliferation and police interrogation are part of the feel-good agenda? What a fascinating and colorful world you live in, kid.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Is that the sum total of what I said, young fascist?

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Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot the police interrogation bill. Amazing stuff. ~:rolleyes:

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Yup, that's all he did. Boy, you sure know your stuff.

In August 2005, Obama traveled with Sen. Richard Lugar (R-IN) to nuclear and biological weapons destruction facilities in the former Soviet Union, where they urged the destruction of conventional weapons stockpiles. With Lugar, Obama introduced the Cooperative Proliferation Detection, Interdiction Assistance, and Conventional Threat Reduction Act, which passed as part of the Department of State Authorities Act of 2006.

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This would be laughable if it weren't so deadly serious. You attempted to refute my point by saying he went on a trip to Russia.. with the guy who wrote the bill! Do some research. Nuclear nonproliferation was little more than an edited version of a previous bill authored by... none other than Dick Lugar.

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So when the resident self-declared fascist embarks on a one-man jihad against a candidate with a different skin color from his own, well, the implications are obvious.

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I would normally label such a comment as simply inept, but your continued attacks go further than that. I've constantly defended Jews on this board, as well as blacks and even westernized arabs. You've asked me point blank if I would support any black candidates, and I responded with examples.

So I am forced to come to the conclusion that these constant and baseless attacks are more than the inept ramblings of a misinformed individual, but are in actuallity a sad attempt to divert attention from the fact that - even with the power of Google - you're able to come up with precious little in the way of qualifications that Obama has to be president.

Step back and look at how pathetic you are being. I asked a simple, polite question. My response? "You're a fascist and a racist and you wont vote for him anyway so I don't have to respond!!"

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So nuclear non-proliferation and police interrogation are part of the feel-good agenda? What a fascinating and colorful world you live in, kid.

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They're not? How many politicians have "Proliferating Nuclear Weapons" as a plank on their platform? :dizzy2:


Don't you see what the problem is here? I asked you a simple question about the man's qualifications and besides all the personal attacks and hysteria, all you could come up with of any substance is the fact that he was able to beat the Clinton machine and that he slapped his name on someone else's work. His record is so thin you even had to resort to citing bills he passed in the state legislature!

Most people want hope and change. What is he really going to change though? His platform is a simplistic and naive copy/paste of Hillary's and the standard DNC lines, and as evidenced by his latest Countrywide gaffe - he's certainly not anymore ethical than your standard politician.

Put him under even a modicum of scrutiny, such as in this thread, and his whole facade falls apart. Thats ok though, obviously any criticism of the man reflects deep-seed racism, right Lemur?

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Originally Posted by CountArach

How many lies has he been caught out on recently?

Oh and breaking Godwin's law on the second page - I think that's pretty bad...

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Auschwitz and the way he handled his state senate campagins. He is not hope or change he is just the same suit with a darker skin tone. Oh well I guess chrisma wins people over more than experince and sound policies. The funny thing is Clinton had a much better plan for health care and Iraq. With Obamas national system 15 million Americans will still be without coverage. That sure fixes allot. :wall:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

With Obamas national system 115 million Americans will still be without coverage. That sure fixes allot. :wall:

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: A quick google search shows that currently only 50 million Americans are without coverage. So either you're stating Obama's plan will cause MORE Americans to be uninsured or you are making up numbers out of your southern hemisphere.:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

There is a difference between partial coverage and full coverage in a plan however.

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Originally Posted by woad&fangs

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: A quick google search shows that currently only 50 million Americans are without coverage. So either you're stating Obama's plan will cause MORE Americans to be uninsured or you are making up numbers out of your southern hemisphere.:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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I meant 15 excuse my mistake. I was under the impression that these people would not be covered at all. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

Okay, 15 million is a realistic sounding number. I'll be honest and say that I've never actually looked to hard into Obama or Hillary's healthcare plan so you might be right.

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Originally Posted by woad&fangs

Okay, 15 million is a realistic sounding number. I'll be honest and say that I've never actually looked to hard into Obama or Hillary's healthcare plan so you might be right.

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You have something in common with most Obama supporters then. :2thumbsup:

That was brilliant, honestly :laugh4:

The score on Obama substance is now 3:0 for Lemur. I tried to do the same for McCain in the other thread, and I'm not even an American but a goldarn foreigner and a Socialist. Got the same non-reaction from others. It doesn't seem to matter. Those who complain the most about the superficiality on the present campaign are the most superficial in their own views and approach.

Meh. :coffeenews:

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Originally Posted by from Obama's site

Lowering Costs Through Investment in Electronic Health Information Technology Systems: Most medical records are still stored on paper, which makes it hard to coordinate care, measure quality or reduce medical errors and which costs twice as much as electronic claims. Obama will invest $10 billion a year over the next five years to move the U.S. health care system to broad adoption of standards-based electronic health information systems, including electronic health records, and will phase in requirements for full implementation of health IT. Obama will ensure that patients' privacy is protected.

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bolding done by me. While I like most of what I see on his site, this paragraph jumps out as naive and rather stupid. Yes, electronic records will help make it easier to coordinate care and I believe they are a good thing. However, claiming that a $50 billion investment will lower costs just doesn't seem quite right to me. I'm also curious as to how he plans on protecting electronic records in a way that he can ensure a patient's privacy.

However, I still have yet to see McCain's healthcare plan.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Nuclear nonproliferation was little more than an edited version of a previous bill authored by... none other than Dick Lugar.

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PJ, you asked for examples of things Obama has done. I gave some. You declared they were all irrelevant or plagiarized. Whatever, kid.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

So I am forced to come to the conclusion that these constant and baseless attacks are more than the inept ramblings of a misinformed individual, but are in actuallity a sad attempt to divert attention from ...

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Stop right there. There's no diversion going on. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. If we were in a place that was not the Org, I'd call you exactly what I think you are.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Step back and look at how pathetic you are being. I asked a simple, polite question. My response? "You're a fascist and a racist and you wont vote for him anyway so I don't have to respond!!"

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I asked whether you were listening or reloading. Your responses make the answer obvious. Explaining my positions to a person who is in a permanent partisan crouch is beyond unrewarding.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

His record is so thin you even had to resort to citing bills he passed in the state legislature!

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Yeah, that's just nuts! How dare anyone cite things that happened during the eight years the guys served as a State Senator! That's cheating, that is!

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Thats ok though, obviously any criticism of the man reflects deep-seed racism, right Lemur?

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I'll certainly consider the source, PJ.

I looked at McCain's plan on his website. Overall I like it, but it seems a lot vaguer than Obama's plan.

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Originally Posted by woad&fangs

I looked at McCain's plan on his website. Overall I like it, but it seems a lot vaguer than Obama's plan.

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The same problem was evident in the election websites of 2004. Politians will rarely put themselves in a position of black and white details this early in the electon. We might see more substance as the election date draws near.

Kind of waiting for the head to head debates. I think the more they have will benefit the American People because it will force both candidates to show their hands on what their policies and course of direction will be if they are elected. We will also be able to take their measure.

PJ:

Lemur's been responding with a pretty clear set of facts on Obama. You're obviously free to think that Obama's policy stance is not in our collective best interest (I do), but continuing to assert his ephemerality at this juncture is poor argumentation. As Redleg correctly notes, politicos of all stripes don't like to be pinned down much -- the moment you take a stand on something you acquire opponents -- and the media's coverage of him and his fellow campaigners treatment of him did not force him to come out with very much in the way of specifics. That is NOT the same thing as having no record, stance, or accomplishments.

Now, if you'd like to take the time to do a side-by-side on experience with Clinton or McCain, you might make a better case, but just the assertion isn't enough.


Lemur: Please stop addressing the racist issue with PJ, I do not wish to see you on vacation from us here in the Backroom -- you make me think.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Auschwitz and the way he handled his state senate campagins.

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Why are you accusing the man of having no substance when you haven't even done enough research to find that his statement on auschwitch was just him misspeaking: he meant Buchenwald. Your views on him have no substance.

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He is not hope or change he is just the same suit with a darker skin tone. Oh well I guess chrisma wins people over more than experince and sound policies. The funny thing is Clinton had a much better plan for health care and Iraq. With Obamas national system 15 million Americans will still be without coverage. That sure fixes allot. :wall:

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Clinton's plan didn't cover those 15 million. She claimed it did, but her plan just tried to make people who couldn't afford health insurance pay for it. Remember, car insurance is mandatory and huge numbers of americans don't have it. They tried mandatory in MA and lot's of people don't have health insurance. They just accept the fine. It's unenforcable. Clinton's plan is one that all talk and no substance.

His darker skin tone is irrelevant. You seem to be irrationally biased against charisma. Not everyone with charisma is a used car salesman and a liar.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

The score on Obama substance is now 3:0 for Lemur. I tried to do the same for McCain in the other thread, and I'm not even an American but a goldarn foreigner and a Socialist. Got the same non-reaction from others. It doesn't seem to matter. Those who complain the most about the superficiality on the present campaign are the most superficial in their own views and approach.

Meh. :coffeenews:

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Ironic, isn't it.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Why are you accusing the man of having no substance when you haven't even done enough research to find that his statement on auschwitch was just him misspeaking: he meant Buchenwald.

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Actually it also wan't his uncle but his great uncle.
A lot of them "misspeak" or claim to be "misinterpreted" though, so he's in good company with the "same old politics"

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Why are you accusing the man of having no substance when you haven't even done enough research to find that his statement on auschwitch was just him misspeaking: he meant Buchenwald. Your views on him have no substance.



Clinton's plan didn't cover those 15 million. She claimed it did, but her plan just tried to make people who couldn't afford health insurance pay for it. Remember, car insurance is mandatory and huge numbers of americans don't have it. They tried mandatory in MA and lot's of people don't have health insurance. They just accept the fine. It's unenforcable. Clinton's plan is one that all talk and no substance.

His darker skin tone is irrelevant. You seem to be irrationally biased against charisma. Not everyone with charisma is a used car salesman and a liar.

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Just as long as you realize he is the same old thing. There is nothing new about the man

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Actually it also wan't his uncle but his great uncle.
A lot of them "misspeak" or claim to be "misinterpreted" though, so he's in good company with the "same old politics"

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You're right. What nefarious politics. Trying to get away with saying auswitch instead of buchenwald. Good thing we have people like sfts and FactionHeir to see though the lies and dirty politics. :dizzy2:

I wonder if the reason he hasn't said much about his policies is that the people that don't like him only ever question whether he's really black and whether he misspoke?

Isn't that the same reaction Clinton and McCain are/were getting?

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

You're right. What nefarious politics. Trying to get away with saying auswitch instead of buchenwald. Good thing we have people like sfts and FactionHeir to see though the lies and dirty politics. :dizzy2:

I wonder if the reason he hasn't said much about his policies is that the people that don't like him only ever question whether he's really black and whether he misspoke?

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A harvard educated man would know the difference dont you think? He is just the same old politician. he uses the same smut that the rest of them use. He is not change or hope or different he is just another suit.

So Strike, since in your view there is no difference between Bush 43 and Obama, what characteristics would qualify as "different" for you?

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Isn't that the same reaction Clinton and McCain are/were getting?

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I'm talking about what you are saying, so why are you bring what some "other people" may have said about clinton and McCain into the discussion?

Do you really think it's saying auswitch instead of buchenwald is evidence of a lying politician?

The only reason those guys are so vague on their policies is because the electorate is too damned lazy to demand clarity. And I'd wager, politicians like it that way and won't make it too hard for each other. Who needs to do mud-slinging nowadays anyway? Partisan bloggers do it for them.

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Explaining my positions to a person who is in a permanent partisan crouch is beyond unrewarding.

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Yep. Preaching to the quire is far more rewarding. I asked you a simple question and your eventual response was laced with personal attacks.

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Stop right there. There's no diversion going on. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. If we were in a place that was not the Org, I'd call you exactly what I think you are.

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Just say it, the moderators won't bother you. Hell you've already called me racist. If you're not man enough though, why don't you send me a personal message?

I will say that leveling false accusations of racism against me is not simply you being an idiot, it is you being deliberately deceitful.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

A harvard educated man would know the difference dont you think? He is just the same old politician. he uses the same smut that the rest of them use. He is not change or hope or different he is just another suit.

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I'm sorry sfts, but at this point your bias should be clear to even you. Step back and reevaluate what you're saying. People say the wrong word in speeches just like they mess up in typing. For example you missed an apostrophe and didn't capitalize when you should have two times. A high school educated man should know better? You're just a lying politician? This is getting silly. Everyone makes typos and errors.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

So Strike, since in your view there is no difference between Bush 43 and Obama, what characteristics would qualify as "different" for you?

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Both men offer no new soultions for the United States. Obama seems content on riding the populist horse into the ground just like Bush43 did early on. Lemur youre a smart guy yhou know the man offers no real hope in the short or long run. They all jsut talk a bunch of hot air. Americans polotics exploits the dumb lazy and ignornat to the highest degree

A stagnant, apathetic attitude best described by: :wall: , and which is the main reason why elections so often boil down to the best of a bad bunch.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

I'm talking about what you are saying, so why are you bring what some "other people" may have said about clinton and McCain into the discussion?

Do you really think it's saying auswitch instead of buchenwald is evidence of a lying politician?

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I did not say that this was evidence of a lying politician anywhere now did I?
I said that him saying how his Uncle (when it was his Great Uncle) being among the first American soldiers to liberate Auschwitz (When it was Buchenwald, note 2 misspeaks in the same sentence) was just the same misspeak/misunderstand/misquote that all the other same old politicians he aims to defy are doing.

A democrat's compilation of Barack Obama's lies. Some interesting stuff in there...


1.) Selma Got Me Born - LIAR, your parents felt safe enough to have you in 1961 - Selma had no effect on your birth, as Selma was in 1965. (Google ‘Obama Selma’ for his full March 4, 2007 speech and articles about its various untruths.)

2.) Father Was A Goat Herder - LIAR, he was a privileged, well educated youth, who went on to work with the Kenyan Government.

3.) Father Was A Proud Freedom Fighter - LIAR, he was part of one of the most corrupt and violent governments Kenya has ever had.

4.) My Family Has Strong Ties To African Freedom - LIAR, your cousin Raila Odinga has created mass violence in attempting to overturn a legitimate election in 2007, in Kenya . It is the first widespread violence in decades. The current government is pro-American but Odinga wants to overthrow it and establish Muslim Sharia law. Your half-brother, Abongo Obama, is Odinga’s follower. You interrupted your New Hampshire campaigning to speak to Odinga on the phone. Check out this link for verification of that….and for more.

Obama’s cousin Odinga in Kenya ran for president and tried to get Sharia Muslim law in place there. When Odinga lost the elections, his followers have burned Christians’ homes and then burned men, women and children alive in a Christian church where they took shelter. Obama SUPPORTED his cousin before the election process here started. Google Obama and Odinga and see what you get. No one wants to know the truth.

5.) My Grandmother Has Always Been A Christian - LIAR, she does her daily Salat prayers at 5 AM according to her own interviews. Not to mention, Christianity wouldn’t allow her to have been one of 14 wives to 1 man.

6.) My Name is African Swahili - LIAR, your name is Arabic and ‘Baraka’ (from which Barack came) means ‘blessed’ in that language. Hussein is also Arabic and so is Obama.
Barack Hussein Obama is not half black. If elected, he would be the first Arab-American President, not the first black President. Barack Hussein Obama is 50% Caucasian from his mother’s side and 43.75% Arabic and 6.25% African Negro from his father’s side. While Barack Hussein Obama’s father was from Kenya , his father’s family was mainly Arabs. Barack Hussein Obama’s father was only 12.5% African Negro and 87.5% Arab (his father’s birth certificate even states he’s Arab, not African Negro). From
this link.

7.) I Never Practiced Islam - LIAR, you practiced it daily at school, where you were registered as a Muslim and kept that faith for 31 years,until your wife made you change, so you could run for office.
4-3-08 Article “Obama was ‘quite religious in islam’” This link.

8.) My School In Indonesia Was Christian - LIAR, you were registered as Muslim there and got in trouble in Koranic Studies for making faces (check your own book).
February 28, 2008.
Kristoff from the New York Times a year ago:

Mr. Obama recalled the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer, reciting them with a first-rate accent. In a remark that seemed delightfully uncalculated (it’ll give Alabama voters heart attacks), Mr. Obama described the call to prayer as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.”
This is just one example of what Pamela is talking about when she says “Obama’s narrative is being altered, enhanced and manipulated to whitewash troubling facts.”

9.) I Was Fluent In Indonesian - LIAR, not one teacher says you could speak the language.

10.) Because I Lived In Indonesia , I Have More Foreign Experience - LIAR, you were there from the ages of 6 to 10, and couldn’t even speak the language. What did you learn, how to study the Koran and watch cartoons?

11.) I Am Stronger On Foreign Affairs - LIAR, except for Africa (surprise) and the Middle East (bigger surprise), you have never been anywhere else on the planet and thus have NO experience with our closest allies.

12.) I Blame My Early Drug Use On Ethnic Confusion - LIAR, you were quite content in high school to be Barry Obama, no mention of Kenya and no mention of struggle to identify - your classmates said you were just fine.

13.) An Ebony Article Moved Me To Run For Office - LIAR, Ebony has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesn’t, and never did, exist.

14.) A Life Magazine Article Changed My Outlook On Life - LIAR, Life has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesn’t, and never did, exist.

15.) I Won’t Run On A National Ticket In ‘08 - LIAR, here you are, despite saying, live on TV, that you would not have enough experience by then, and you are all about having experience first.

16.) Present Votes Are Common In Illinois - LIAR, they are common for YOU, but not many others have 130 NO VOTES.

17.) Oops, I Misvoted - LIAR, only when caught by church groups and democrats, did you beg to change your misvote.

18.) I Was A Professor Of Law - LIAR, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.

19.) I Was A Constitutional Lawyer - LIAR, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.

20.) Without Me, There Would Be No Ethics Bill - LIAR, you didn’t write it,introduce it, change it, or create it.

21.) The Ethics Bill Was Hard To Pass - LIAR, it took just 14 days from start to finish.

22.) I Wrote A Tough Nuclear Bill - LIAR, your bill was rejected by your own party for its pandering and lack of all regulation - mainly because of your Nuclear Donor, Exelon, from which David Axelrod came.

23.) I Have Released My State Records - LIAR, as of March, 2008, state bills you sponsored or voted for have yet to be released, exposing all the special interests pork hidden within.

24.) I Took On The Asbestos Altgeld Gardens Mess - LIAR, you were part of a large group of people who remedied Altgeld Gardens . You failed to mention anyone else but yourself, in your books.

25.) My Economics Bill Will Help America - LIAR, your 111 economic policies were just combined into a proposal which lost 99-0, and even YOU voted against your own bill.

26.) I Have Been A Bold Leader In Illinois - LIAR, even your own supporters claim to have not seen BOLD action on your part.

27.) I Passed 26 Of My Own Bills In One Year - LIAR, they were not YOUR bills, but rather handed to you, after their creation by a fellow Senator, to assist you in a future bid for higher office.

28.) No One Contacted Canada About NAFTA - LIAR, the Canadian Government issued the names and a memo of the conversation your campaign had with them.

29.) I Am Tough On Terrorism - LIAR, you missed the Iran Resolution vote on terrorism and your good friend Ali Abunimah supports the destruction of Israel .

30.) I Am Not Acting As President Yet - LIAR, after the NAFTA Memo, a dead terrorist in the FARC, in Colombia, was found with a letter stating how you and he were working together on getting FARC recognized officially.

31.) I Didn’t Run Ads In Florida - LIAR, you allowed national ads to run 8-12 times per day for two weeks - and you still lost.

32.) I Won Michigan - LIAR, no you didn’t.

33.) I won Nevada - LIAR, no you did not.

34.) I Want All Votes To Count - LIAR, you said let the delegates decide.

35.) I Want Americans To Decide - LIAR, you prefer caucuses that limit the vote, confuse the voters, force a public vote, and only operate during small windows of time.

36.) I passed 900 Bills in the State Senate - LIAR, you passed 26, most of which you didn’t write yourself.

37.) My Campaign Was Extorted By A Friend - LIAR, that friend is threatening to sue if you do not stop saying this. (Obama has now stopped saying this.)

38.) I Believe In Fairness, Not Tactics - LIAR, you used tactics to eliminate Alice Palmer from running against you.

39.) I Don’t Take PAC Money - LIAR, you take loads of it.

40.) I don’t Have Lobbysists - LIAR, you have over 47 lobbyists, and counting.

41.) My Campaign Had Nothing To Do With The 1984 Ad - LIAR, your own campaign worker made the ad on his Apple in one afternoon.

42.) My Campaign Never Took Over MySpace - LIAR, Tom, who started MySpace issued a warning about this advertising to MySpace clients.

43.) I Inspire People With My Words - LIAR, you inspire people with other people’s words.

44.) I Have Passed Bills In The U.S. Senate - LIAR, you have passed A BILL in the U.S. Senate - for Africa, which shows YOUR priorities.

45.) I Have Always Been Against Iraq - LIAR, you weren’t in office to vote against it AND you have voted to fund it every single time, unlike Kucinich, who seems to be out gutting you Obama. You also seem to be stepping back from your departure date - AGAIN.

46.) I Have Always Supported Universal Health Care - LIAR, your plan leaves us all to pay for the 15,000,000 who don’t have to buy it.

I still haven't waded thru the old thread to find the article about Obama being handed sponsorship of bills in IL, but here's a WaPo story about Obama's attempts to take top billing for legislation in the US senate that he had little to do with:

Quote:

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After weeks of arduous negotiations, on April 6, 2006, a bipartisan group of senators burst out of the "President's Room," just off the Senate chamber, with a deal on new immigration policy.

As the half-dozen senators -- including John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) -- headed to announce their plan, they met Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), who made a request common when Capitol Hill news conferences are in the offing: "Hey, guys, can I come along?" And when Obama went before the microphones, he was generous with his list of senators to congratulate -- a list that included himself.

"I want to cite Lindsey Graham, Sam Brownback, Mel Martinez, Ken Salazar, myself, Dick Durbin, Joe Lieberman . . . who've actually had to wake up early to try to hammer this stuff out," he said.

To Senate staff members, who had been arriving for 7 a.m. negotiating sessions for weeks, it was a galling moment. Those morning sessions had attracted just three to four senators a side, Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.) recalled, each deeply involved in the issue. Obama was not one of them. But in a presidential contest involving three sitting senators, embellishment of legislative records may be an inevitability, Specter said with a shrug.

Unlike governors, business leaders or vice presidents, senators -- the last to win the presidency was John F. Kennedy in 1960 -- are not executives. They cannot be held to account for the state of their states, their companies or their administrations. What they do have is the mark they leave on the nation's laws -- and in Obama's brief three-year tenure, as well as Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's seven-year hitch, those marks are far from indelible.

"It's not an unusual matter for senators to take a little extra credit," Specter said.

-snip-

Immigration is a case in point for Obama, but not the only one. In 2007, after the first comprehensive immigration bill had died, the senators were back at it, and again, Obama was notably absent, staffers and senators said. At one meeting, three key negotiators recalled, he entered late and raised a number of questions about the bill's employment verification system. Kennedy and Specter both rebuked him, saying that the issue had already been resolved and that he was coming late to the discussion. Kennedy dressed him down, according to witnesses, and Obama left shortly thereafter.

"Senator Obama came in late, brought up issues that had been hashed and rehashed," Specter recalled. "He didn't stay long."

Just this week, as the financial markets were roiling in the wake of the Bear Stearns collapse, Obama made another claim that was greeted with disbelief in some corners of Capitol Hill. On March 13, Dodd, the chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, and Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, unveiled legislative proposals to allow the Federal Housing Administration to guarantee new loans from banks willing to help homeowners in or approaching foreclosure. Obama and Clinton were in Washington for a day-long round of budget voting, but neither appeared at the housing news conference.

Yet Obama on Monday appeared to seek top billing on Dodd's proposal.

"At this moment, we must come together and act to address the housing crisis that set this downturn in motion and continues to eat away at the public's confidence in the market," Obama said. "We should pass the legislation I put forward with my colleague Chris Dodd to create meaningful incentives for lenders to buy or refinance existing mortgages so that Americans facing foreclosure can keep their homes."

Dodd did say that Obama supported the bill, as does Clinton. But he could not offer pride of authorship to the candidate he wants to see in the White House next year.

"I've talked to him about it at some length," Dodd said. "When Senator Obama was there for that full day of voting, we had long conversations about it. He had excellent questions and decided to support it."

---

-Edit: Ok, I went thru the old thread and found the story- it even alleges the vaunted video taped confessions bill was handed to him: Obama and Me

Quote:

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Jones appointed Obama sponsor of virtually every high-profile piece of legislation, angering many rank-and-file state legislators who had more seniority than Obama and had spent years championing the bills.

"I took all the beatings and insults and endured all the racist comments over the years from nasty Republican committee chairmen," State Senator Rickey Hendon, the original sponsor of landmark racial profiling and videotaped confession legislation yanked away by Jones and given to Obama, complained to me at the time. "Barack didn't have to endure any of it, yet, in the end, he got all the credit.

"I don't consider it bill jacking," Hendon told me. "But no one wants to carry the ball 99 yards all the way to the one-yard line, and then give it to the halfback who gets all the credit and the stats in the record book."

---

hmm..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI77cU3jsFs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Crap

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And that makes McCain the better choice, how?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

And that makes McCain the better choice, how?

---

When faced with the unpleasant truths... divert! You'll fit in well here. :bow:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

When faced with the unpleasant truths... divert! You'll fit in well here. :bow:

---

There was nothing of substance in there - it was entirely superfluous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

There was nothing of substance in there - it was entirely superfluous.

---

Interesting analysis. You feel his bills and senate record are superfluous?

Obama is definitely the candidate for you!

I believe CA was referring to the anonymous, un-linked un-attributed list of 46 hysterical attacks. By all means, post some more of that sort of stuff. Does your credibility wonders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I believe CA was referring to the anonymous, un-linked un-attributed list of 46 hysterical attacks. By all means, post some more of that sort of stuff. Does your credibility wonders.

---

That's the one. I didn't bother to watch the YouTube link.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I believe CA was referring to the anonymous, un-linked un-attributed list of 46 hysterical attacks. By all means, post some more of that sort of stuff. Does your credibility wonders.

---

Hysterical attacks should be pretty easy to refute... :book:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

That's the one. I didn't bother to watch the YouTube link.

---

You should. Its the man's writings in his own words. Hard to spin that..

On second thought, it might chip at your preconcieved notions, so you should probably avoid it.

Martial Law is declared here, and a 48-hour curfew imposed, so staff can sort the bloodied from the bloodiers. Thread will re-open this time Friday, 13 June, hopefully with a more civil tone. My apologies to readers. :bow:

Thread is re-opened, a couple of hours later than promised. My apologies (longer than usual workday). :bow:

Well, as you're probably aware, Fox News went for the trifecta. First there was calling for Obama's assassination, then there was the "terrorist fist-jab," and now it's calling Michelle Obama his "baby mama," a phrase normally reserved for unmarried women who you've knocked up.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...a/BabyMama.jpg

Best comment on the subject so far:

Calling Michelle Obama a “baby mama” isn’t just Fox News having a happy casual larf; it’s using urban slang to a) remind you the Obamas are black, b) belittle a woman of considerable personal accomplishment, and c) frame Barack Obama’s relationship to his wife and children in a way that insults him, minimizes his love for and commitment to his family, and reinforces stereotypes about black men. Someone at Fox News just ought to call Barack Obama “boy” at some point so we can have all the cards right out there on the table.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

A democrat's compilation of Barack Obama's lies. Some interesting stuff in there...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1.) Selma Got Me Born - LIAR, your parents felt safe enough to have you in 1961 - Selma had no effect on your birth, as Selma was in 1965. (Google ‘Obama Selma’ for his full March 4, 2007 speech and articles about its various untruths.)

2.) Father Was A Goat Herder - LIAR, he was a privileged, well educated youth, who went on to work with the Kenyan Government.

3.) Father Was A Proud Freedom Fighter - LIAR, he was part of one of the most corrupt and violent governments Kenya has ever had.

4.) My Family Has Strong Ties To African Freedom - LIAR, your cousin Raila Odinga has created mass violence in attempting to overturn a legitimate election in 2007, in Kenya . It is the first widespread violence in decades. The current government is pro-American but Odinga wants to overthrow it and establish Muslim Sharia law. Your half-brother, Abongo Obama, is Odinga’s follower. You interrupted your New Hampshire campaigning to speak to Odinga on the phone. Check out this link for verification of that….and for more.

Obama’s cousin Odinga in Kenya ran for president and tried to get Sharia Muslim law in place there. When Odinga lost the elections, his followers have burned Christians’ homes and then burned men, women and children alive in a Christian church where they took shelter. Obama SUPPORTED his cousin before the election process here started. Google Obama and Odinga and see what you get. No one wants to know the truth.

5.) My Grandmother Has Always Been A Christian - LIAR, she does her daily Salat prayers at 5 AM according to her own interviews. Not to mention, Christianity wouldn’t allow her to have been one of 14 wives to 1 man.

6.) My Name is African Swahili - LIAR, your name is Arabic and ‘Baraka’ (from which Barack came) means ‘blessed’ in that language. Hussein is also Arabic and so is Obama.
Barack Hussein Obama is not half black. If elected, he would be the first Arab-American President, not the first black President. Barack Hussein Obama is 50% Caucasian from his mother’s side and 43.75% Arabic and 6.25% African Negro from his father’s side. While Barack Hussein Obama’s father was from Kenya , his father’s family was mainly Arabs. Barack Hussein Obama’s father was only 12.5% African Negro and 87.5% Arab (his father’s birth certificate even states he’s Arab, not African Negro). From
this link.

7.) I Never Practiced Islam - LIAR, you practiced it daily at school, where you were registered as a Muslim and kept that faith for 31 years,until your wife made you change, so you could run for office.
4-3-08 Article “Obama was ‘quite religious in islam’” This link.

8.) My School In Indonesia Was Christian - LIAR, you were registered as Muslim there and got in trouble in Koranic Studies for making faces (check your own book).
February 28, 2008.
Kristoff from the New York Times a year ago:

Mr. Obama recalled the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer, reciting them with a first-rate accent. In a remark that seemed delightfully uncalculated (it’ll give Alabama voters heart attacks), Mr. Obama described the call to prayer as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.”
This is just one example of what Pamela is talking about when she says “Obama’s narrative is being altered, enhanced and manipulated to whitewash troubling facts.”

9.) I Was Fluent In Indonesian - LIAR, not one teacher says you could speak the language.

10.) Because I Lived In Indonesia , I Have More Foreign Experience - LIAR, you were there from the ages of 6 to 10, and couldn’t even speak the language. What did you learn, how to study the Koran and watch cartoons?

11.) I Am Stronger On Foreign Affairs - LIAR, except for Africa (surprise) and the Middle East (bigger surprise), you have never been anywhere else on the planet and thus have NO experience with our closest allies.

12.) I Blame My Early Drug Use On Ethnic Confusion - LIAR, you were quite content in high school to be Barry Obama, no mention of Kenya and no mention of struggle to identify - your classmates said you were just fine.

13.) An Ebony Article Moved Me To Run For Office - LIAR, Ebony has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesn’t, and never did, exist.

14.) A Life Magazine Article Changed My Outlook On Life - LIAR, Life has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesn’t, and never did, exist.

15.) I Won’t Run On A National Ticket In ‘08 - LIAR, here you are, despite saying, live on TV, that you would not have enough experience by then, and you are all about having experience first.

16.) Present Votes Are Common In Illinois - LIAR, they are common for YOU, but not many others have 130 NO VOTES.

17.) Oops, I Misvoted - LIAR, only when caught by church groups and democrats, did you beg to change your misvote.

18.) I Was A Professor Of Law - LIAR, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.

19.) I Was A Constitutional Lawyer - LIAR, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.

20.) Without Me, There Would Be No Ethics Bill - LIAR, you didn’t write it,introduce it, change it, or create it.

21.) The Ethics Bill Was Hard To Pass - LIAR, it took just 14 days from start to finish.

22.) I Wrote A Tough Nuclear Bill - LIAR, your bill was rejected by your own party for its pandering and lack of all regulation - mainly because of your Nuclear Donor, Exelon, from which David Axelrod came.

23.) I Have Released My State Records - LIAR, as of March, 2008, state bills you sponsored or voted for have yet to be released, exposing all the special interests pork hidden within.

24.) I Took On The Asbestos Altgeld Gardens Mess - LIAR, you were part of a large group of people who remedied Altgeld Gardens . You failed to mention anyone else but yourself, in your books.

25.) My Economics Bill Will Help America - LIAR, your 111 economic policies were just combined into a proposal which lost 99-0, and even YOU voted against your own bill.

26.) I Have Been A Bold Leader In Illinois - LIAR, even your own supporters claim to have not seen BOLD action on your part.

27.) I Passed 26 Of My Own Bills In One Year - LIAR, they were not YOUR bills, but rather handed to you, after their creation by a fellow Senator, to assist you in a future bid for higher office.

28.) No One Contacted Canada About NAFTA - LIAR, the Canadian Government issued the names and a memo of the conversation your campaign had with them.

29.) I Am Tough On Terrorism - LIAR, you missed the Iran Resolution vote on terrorism and your good friend Ali Abunimah supports the destruction of Israel .

30.) I Am Not Acting As President Yet - LIAR, after the NAFTA Memo, a dead terrorist in the FARC, in Colombia, was found with a letter stating how you and he were working together on getting FARC recognized officially.

31.) I Didn’t Run Ads In Florida - LIAR, you allowed national ads to run 8-12 times per day for two weeks - and you still lost.

32.) I Won Michigan - LIAR, no you didn’t.

33.) I won Nevada - LIAR, no you did not.

34.) I Want All Votes To Count - LIAR, you said let the delegates decide.

35.) I Want Americans To Decide - LIAR, you prefer caucuses that limit the vote, confuse the voters, force a public vote, and only operate during small windows of time.

36.) I passed 900 Bills in the State Senate - LIAR, you passed 26, most of which you didn’t write yourself.

37.) My Campaign Was Extorted By A Friend - LIAR, that friend is threatening to sue if you do not stop saying this. (Obama has now stopped saying this.)

38.) I Believe In Fairness, Not Tactics - LIAR, you used tactics to eliminate Alice Palmer from running against you.

39.) I Don’t Take PAC Money - LIAR, you take loads of it.

40.) I don’t Have Lobbysists - LIAR, you have over 47 lobbyists, and counting.

41.) My Campaign Had Nothing To Do With The 1984 Ad - LIAR, your own campaign worker made the ad on his Apple in one afternoon.

42.) My Campaign Never Took Over MySpace - LIAR, Tom, who started MySpace issued a warning about this advertising to MySpace clients.

43.) I Inspire People With My Words - LIAR, you inspire people with other people’s words.

44.) I Have Passed Bills In The U.S. Senate - LIAR, you have passed A BILL in the U.S. Senate - for Africa, which shows YOUR priorities.

45.) I Have Always Been Against Iraq - LIAR, you weren’t in office to vote against it AND you have voted to fund it every single time, unlike Kucinich, who seems to be out gutting you Obama. You also seem to be stepping back from your departure date - AGAIN.

46.) I Have Always Supported Universal Health Care - LIAR, your plan leaves us all to pay for the 15,000,000 who don’t have to buy it.

---

As I stated in another thread it seems Snopes has gone through and proved all this false.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/50lies.asp

So, did you copy and paste this without knowing they were lies, if so it shows that you are uninformed, or did you know they were lies, and are now helping to perpetuate those lies?
Which one is it?

As far as your YouTube video, it is quit easy to tell that Obama is describing what thing were like for him growing up. That and the fact that the statements are incomplete. Perhaps you shoud try and post something with some type of substance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

Well, as you're probably aware, Fox News went for the trifecta.

---

Well, that settles it- I won't be voting for FoxNews this November. What? It's not running? Oh, nevermind then. :oops:

Xiahou, the responses from the blogosphere have been hilarious; you'd have to be made of the anti-funny to not enjoy them. Maybe the best one-liner: "Did no one at that Fox Chyron department know how to spell 'Negress?' "

But the Scalzi post I linked to has some doozies worthy of Devastatin' Dave himself:

Back in the day – you know, when presidential candidates were respectably white – news organizations called potential First Ladies “wives.” But now that black folks are running, we can get all funky fresh with the lingo, yo. So it’s basically fine for Fox News to use “Baby Mama” for Michelle Obama, slang that implies a married 44-year-old Princeton-educated lawyer is, to use an Urban Dictionary definition of the term, “some chick you knocked up on accident during a fling who you can’t stand but you have to tolerate cuz she got your baby now.” Because the Obamas are black! And the blacks, they be all relaxed about that ****, yo. Word up.

Breaking news - Obama's half brother is part of the vast right-wing conspiracy to smear Obama as a Muslim!

Now, it seems to me Obama does have a history of being raised in a Muslim background, Indonesia specifically. Why the Clintonesque need to completely deny that and so turn a non-event politically into something where it can be said he's lying about his past?

And I really hope no one is stupid enough to go after Obama's wife with what they have now. It should be enough to simply show Obama's positions on the issues, namely international, like saying Jerusalem will remain undivided, then backing down much quicker than he did in his unilateral talks with Iran thing.

And my support for McCain is growing after hearing of his economic/tax plan.

CR

I read in the Boston Globe that the Barack Obama campaign has set up a website to repudiate the web based rumors about him and his family:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar..._fight_rumors/

The article makes the point that this is an interesting tactic considering the conventional wisdom is that by trying to fight rumors you only serve to spread them.

Still the whole "Barack is a secret Muslim" meme has some traction, so maybe it is best to fight it.

A link to the site itself (responds to some accusations made up thread):

http://my.barackobama.com/page/conte...thesmearshome/

And a trip to snopes is always a good idea. I still get emails from one or two of my friends about one urban legend or another, ie the Post Office is going to tax e-mails.

Of course, people will believe what they want to believe, even if it isn't true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OverKnight

Of course, people will believe what they want to believe, even if it isn't true.

---

That is the sad fact. Instead of people focus on lies and half truths. You know there is a large segment of the population that would say that Obama is a black Muslim but could not tell you the smallest thing about his platform. It's the same for McCain, all they know it that he is a former veteran who spent many years as a P.O.W., but could not tell you were he stood on any issues.

We can't even have a discussion here with out people bringing in all kinds of crap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by m52nickerson

That is the sad fact. Instead of people focus on lies and half truths. You know there is a large segment of the population that would say that Obama is a black Muslim but could not tell you the smallest thing about his platform. It's the same for McCain, all they know it that he is a former veteran who spent many years as a P.O.W., but could not tell you were he stood on any issues.

---

I think the candidates themselves are largely to blame for that. Commit themselves to a specific policy this early? They wouldn't dare, and with the media too lazy to challenge them on that matter it's going to stay that way for some time yet.

It's the same everywhere. I may not like Gordon Brown, for instance, but the opposition is getting a very easy time of it without having to present what their alternatives will be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by m52nickerson

That is the sad fact. Instead of people focus on lies and half truths. You know there is a large segment of the population that would say that Obama is a black Muslim but could not tell you the smallest thing about his platform. It's the same for McCain, all they know it that he is a former veteran who spent many years as a P.O.W., but could not tell you were he stood on any issues.

We can't even have a discussion here with out people bringing in all kinds of crap.

---

I shall revert to my usual fall-back position.

I blame the media.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

I shall revert to my usual fall-back position.

I blame the media.

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The media does share some of the blame, but it is the voters that listen to the media don't do any research for them selfs and vote on who is wearing an American flag pin on there suit.

I do think as time goes on this will improve. My son's (he's two) generation will grow up so internet proficient that they will be far more informed then we are. I think people will more and more come to realize what is important and what is not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by m52nickerson

I think people will more and more come to realize what is important and what is not.

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I think we are there as evidenced by the success of Obama. We'll put aside the fact he beat the clinton machine at thier own game a second (not to minimalize it), but getting caught in the crap about his religion, racial make up, expirence is a waste of time.

Whats important here is people have realized whats important, and thats giving the U.S. political system a major enema and flushing out the conservatives. We realize whats important, we may stay the course (OMG am I quoting Bush?) here in the states but this ones a slam dunk.

Conservatives have set us back so far that the person who represents the greatest change will win. So it happens to be a black man, who had a muslim father and a white grandmother (I thought it would be a female, but I digress). The conservatives created an entire new cabinet level of government, forced Tommy Franks into a ridiculous battle plan for Iraq, created huge deficits, pissed on personal freedoms and have let the infrastructure of the country go to :daisy:.

So whats important is, is someone put a new roll of toilet paper in the bathroom and flush :toilet:

And thats whats going to happen. Sure you will be able to spend pages and pages and minutes of your time bickering back and forth with the various elements here at the org as to who voted for what bill when, or "does he raise his pinky when he drinks, thats the white coming out" but its really a very simple situation.

What is important, is the conservative government of the last 8 years has had a mamoth failre accross the board. They had it all in 2000 and what did they do with it? a well funded successful aids relief program in africa.

What people have come to realize, is that they made a mistake to trust Bush. Yep big mistake was made in 04, but hey 06 the people started to flush away the conservatives so hang in there. Your forecast for the future enlightenment is optomistic and its refreshing, but you've missed the mark its happening now.

Its happening now because the conservatives failed accross the board on a mamoth scale, their majority was unprecedented and they blew, so take heart friend we realized it.

Well said...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Well said...

---

I concur. Excellent post Odin :bow:

As for polling (Seeing as I am absolute poll junkie), Obama has been getting a lot of party unity bounces across the country and the two sites that I watch the most closely (links in their title) for Electoral Vote distributions are showing the following:
Five Thirty Eight:
Obama 308.5 EVs (64.7% chance of victory - Lines up with the trading markets)
McCain 229.5 EVs (35.3%)

Popular vote - Obama 51.4, McCain 48.6

Note that this site was apparently quite accurate during the Primary season, and has recently updated its methodology to help predict states that haven't received much in the way of recent polling data. The methodology is very complex and takes into account long-term trends as well as recent polling averages. Overall I would trust this as quite accurate.

Electoral Vote Predictor:
Obama 304
McCain 221
Tied 13

This site has a much more simple methodology - an average of all the polls in the last week. Probably not as accurate as the other site, but seeing as the two coincide quite well I would be willing to say that this site isn't too bad. It also has an excellent Senate map.

I have two things I'd like to say.

First, I'll acknowledge that Obama has a lead on McCain.

Second, I'll point out that it's nowhere near as big as Kerry's or Gore's over Bush was at this point. One thing I've learned... it'll always be a photo finish.

As for the disrespecting of Michele Obama, shameful. I think she can be quite chafing, but implying she's an out of wedlock mother? Pathetic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I'll point out that it's nowhere near as big as Kerry's or Gore's over Bush was at this point.

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Hmm, that's not what the professional poll-smokers are saying ...

While polls can't accurately gauge an election five months out -- after all, so much can still happen -- it's worth putting Obama's lead into this perspective: Bush never trailed Kerry in the 2004 NBC/WSJ polls that measured registered voters' preference for Bush, Kerry, and Nader. And Bush's lead was never bigger than four points.

Bush won that presidential election by three percentage points, 51%-48%.

Here were the NBC/WSJ trial heats from March 2004 (when Kerry pretty much locked up the nomination) to late October 2004:
March (Mar.6-8): Bush 46%, Kerry 43%, Nader 5%
May (May 1-3): Bush 46%, Kerry 42%, Nader 5%
June (June 25-28): Bush 45%, Kerry 44%, Nader 4%
July (July 19-21): Bush 47%, Kerry 45%, Nader 2%
August (Aug.23-25): Bush 47%, Kerry 45%, Nader 3%
September (Sept.17-19): Bush 48%, Kerry 45%, Nader 2%
Mid October (Oct.16-18): Bush 48%, Kerry 46%, Nader 2%
Late October (Oct.29-31): Bush 48%, Kerry 47%, Nader 1%

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Hmm, that's not what the professional poll-smokers are saying ...

While polls can't accurately gauge an election five months out -- after all, so much can still happen -- it's worth putting Obama's lead into this perspective: Bush never trailed Kerry in the 2004 NBC/WSJ polls that measured registered voters' preference for Bush, Kerry, and Nader. And Bush's lead was never bigger than four points.

Bush won that presidential election by three percentage points, 51%-48%.

Here were the NBC/WSJ trial heats from March 2004 (when Kerry pretty much locked up the nomination) to late October 2004:
March (Mar.6-8): Bush 46%, Kerry 43%, Nader 5%
May (May 1-3): Bush 46%, Kerry 42%, Nader 5%
June (June 25-28): Bush 45%, Kerry 44%, Nader 4%
July (July 19-21): Bush 47%, Kerry 45%, Nader 2%
August (Aug.23-25): Bush 47%, Kerry 45%, Nader 3%
September (Sept.17-19): Bush 48%, Kerry 45%, Nader 2%
Mid October (Oct.16-18): Bush 48%, Kerry 46%, Nader 2%
Late October (Oct.29-31): Bush 48%, Kerry 47%, Nader 1%

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What!?! I thought Kerry had an 18 point lead at the conventions. I thought it was a done deal in June/July 2004. And you say Bush supposedly never trailed? I'm lazy, so can I ask you to go check Zogby for me? Pretty please?

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

What!?! I thought Kerry had an 18 point lead at the conventions. I thought it was a done deal in June/July 2004. And you say Bush supposedly never trailed? I'm lazy, so can I ask you to go check Zogby for me? Pretty please?

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2004 Polling Averages
Analysis

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From April onward, John Kerry never held a lead of more than about 2 points in the Real Clear Politics national average, and George W. Bush never held a lead of more than 6 or 7 points. Those numbers pretty well framed the actual result of Bush +2.4.

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Fascinating. And here all this time, I thought Bush had more comebacks than Rocky. Was it that close with Gore all the time too?

Anyway, thanks for the info Lemur & CA.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Fascinating. And here all this time, I thought Bush had more comebacks than Rocky. Was it that close with Gore all the time too?

Anyway, thanks for the info Lemur & CA.

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Pleasure, I really enjoy polling so its no trouble :bow:

From the second link:

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In 2000, George W. Bush was ahead by an average of 4.7 points in 14 June polls. In November, Al Gore won the popular vote by 0.5 points.

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Originally Posted by Odin

I think we are there as evidenced by the success of Obama. We'll put aside the fact he beat the clinton machine at thier own game a second (not to minimalize it), but getting caught in the crap about his religion, racial make up, expirence is a waste of time.

Whats important here is people have realized whats important, and thats giving the U.S. political system a major enema and flushing out the conservatives. We realize whats important, we may stay the course (OMG am I quoting Bush?) here in the states but this ones a slam dunk.

Conservatives have set us back so far that the person who represents the greatest change will win. So it happens to be a black man, who had a muslim father and a white grandmother (I thought it would be a female, but I digress). The conservatives created an entire new cabinet level of government, forced Tommy Franks into a ridiculous battle plan for Iraq, created huge deficits, pissed on personal freedoms and have let the infrastructure of the country go to :daisy:.

So whats important is, is someone put a new roll of toilet paper in the bathroom and flush :toilet:

And thats whats going to happen. Sure you will be able to spend pages and pages and minutes of your time bickering back and forth with the various elements here at the org as to who voted for what bill when, or "does he raise his pinky when he drinks, thats the white coming out" but its really a very simple situation.

What is important, is the conservative government of the last 8 years has had a mamoth failre accross the board. They had it all in 2000 and what did they do with it? a well funded successful aids relief program in africa.

What people have come to realize, is that they made a mistake to trust Bush. Yep big mistake was made in 04, but hey 06 the people started to flush away the conservatives so hang in there. Your forecast for the future enlightenment is optomistic and its refreshing, but you've missed the mark its happening now.

Its happening now because the conservatives failed accross the board on a mamoth scale, their majority was unprecedented and they blew, so take heart friend we realized it.

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So we should vote change for changes sake?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

So we should vote change for changes sake?

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Since what we have been doing has not worked, yes!

Remember, Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

........guess the conservatives did not get that memo.

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Originally Posted by m52nickerson

Since what we have been doing has not worked, yes!

Remember, Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

........guess the conservatives did not get that memo.

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Higher taxes and a larger federal goverment will not fix anything. It merley burdens normal working people with more taxes and red tape. I see no upside good sir

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Higher taxes and a larger federal government will not fix anything. It merely burdens normal working people with more taxes and red tape. I see no upside good sir

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Obama does want to raise taxes......on people who make over $250,000 dollars a year. No exactly normal working class folks. He also wants to make sure the Bush tax cuts are not renewed, again 90% of those cuts were to large corporations.

Plus, over the last 8 year the conservatives have expanded the size of government to its largest size ever. Obama wants more over site in the corporate world, not the private.

Look at the simple fact.....

Clinton's 8 years the country had an economic boom.

Bush's 8 years the country has just about gone bust.

Tell me Strike, are you and your family better off now in Bush's last year, then you were in Clinton's?

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Originally Posted by Odin

I think we are there as evidenced by the success of Obama. We'll put aside the fact he beat the clinton machine at thier own game a second (not to minimalize it), but getting caught in the crap about his religion, racial make up, expirence is a waste of time.

Whats important here is people have realized whats important, and thats giving the U.S. political system a major enema and flushing out the conservatives. We realize whats important, we may stay the course (OMG am I quoting Bush?) here in the states but this ones a slam dunk.

Conservatives have set us back so far that the person who represents the greatest change will win. So it happens to be a black man, who had a muslim father and a white grandmother (I thought it would be a female, but I digress). The conservatives created an entire new cabinet level of government, forced Tommy Franks into a ridiculous battle plan for Iraq, created huge deficits, pissed on personal freedoms and have let the infrastructure of the country go to :daisy:.

So whats important is, is someone put a new roll of toilet paper in the bathroom and flush :toilet:

And thats whats going to happen. Sure you will be able to spend pages and pages and minutes of your time bickering back and forth with the various elements here at the org as to who voted for what bill when, or "does he raise his pinky when he drinks, thats the white coming out" but its really a very simple situation.

What is important, is the conservative government of the last 8 years has had a mamoth failre accross the board. They had it all in 2000 and what did they do with it? a well funded successful aids relief program in africa.

What people have come to realize, is that they made a mistake to trust Bush. Yep big mistake was made in 04, but hey 06 the people started to flush away the conservatives so hang in there. Your forecast for the future enlightenment is optomistic and its refreshing, but you've missed the mark its happening now.

Its happening now because the conservatives failed accross the board on a mamoth scale, their majority was unprecedented and they blew, so take heart friend we realized it.

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Flush crap with crap. Brilliant.

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Originally Posted by Kush

Flush crap with crap. Brilliant.

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Democrats are better than Republicans.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Higher taxes and a larger federal goverment will not fix anything. It merley burdens normal working people with more taxes and red tape. I see no upside good sir

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Higher taxes hey? With Obama taxes will be lower for the Middle class...

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Economists of various ideological persuasions, however, view Mr. McCain’s assessment as inaccurate or exaggerated. Some question whether Mr. Obama’s tax plan can even be characterized as an increase. Some also argue that contrary to Mr. McCain’s assertions, the Democrat’s proposals, if enacted, would actually reduce taxes for the middle class — the voters both candidates see as the key to victory.

In a study of the candidates’ plans made public Wednesday, the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center concluded that in contrast to Mr. McCain, “Senator Obama offers much larger tax breaks to low- and middle-income taxpayers and would increase taxes on high-income taxpayers.”

The study said, “The largest tax cuts, as a share of income, would go to those at the bottom of the income distribution,” whereas “Senator McCain’s tax cuts would primarily benefit those with very high incomes.”

Other groups that focus on tax and economic policy are preparing similar analyses, but say they regard the Tax Policy Center’s assessment as highly reliable, based on its work in the past.

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EDIT: And lol @ Sasaki :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by m52nickerson

Obama does want to raise taxes......on people who make over $250,000 dollars a year.

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Ah the old steal from the rich because they don't work enough for their money argument. I suppose that really doesn't ever get old because we all know anyone making over 250k a year deserves to have their taxes raised.

Oh wait, it gets really really old.

By the way, did you know Obama wants to "fix" social security by raising taxes on those who make over 102k a year? I'm sure anyone making 102k a year is wealthy too and deserves to be taxed more

God forbid we try to private portions or raise the retirement age. More taxes.

Wait. Does this really fix social security, or simply add more government spending to delay its collapse longer? :idea2:

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No exactly normal working class folks.

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I beg to differ.

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He also wants to make sure the Bush tax cuts are not renewed, again 90% of those cuts were to large corporations.

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Really? Can I see link for that statistic? I thought Bush cut taxes across the board?

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Plus, over the last 8 year the conservatives have expanded the size of government to its largest size ever. Obama wants more over site in the corporate world, not the private.

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Link? Explanation? More red tape isn't always a good think. Can you specify what you are talking about?

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Look at the simple fact.....

Clinton's 8 years the country had an economic boom.

Bush's 8 years the country has just about gone bust.

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:laugh4:

Gone bust? Do you know why the economy is sluggish right now? Do you know remember the great economic boom we had the last couple years before the housing crash? Do you know the reasons for the great economic boom AND CRASH UNDER CLINTON? If you do, I'd love to debate this with you.

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Tell me Strike, are you and your family better off now in Bush's last year, then you were in Clinton's?

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A weak argument at best. Obama is nothing like Bill Clinton. Clinton was a very moderate Democrat, while Obama is not imho.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Higher taxes hey? With Obama taxes will be lower for the Middle class...

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That's great, CA. Raise the taxes on those who create the wealth in this country at a time when the economy and business's are struggling. I mean, those rich people are really stupid, right? Higher taxes won't encourage them to hide more of their assets, right?

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Originally Posted by Kush

By the way, did you know Obama wants to "fix" social security by raising taxes on those who make over 102k a year? I'm sure anyone making 102k a year is wealthy too and deserves to be taxed more

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Why do people say this? Of course making 102k a year is wealthy. Where do you live, the hamptons?

To set the record straight here, I'm not a fanboy of John McCain. Who I really wanted to see in Washington is Ron Paul. You'd see change under him, but not the same old crap we keep hearing about under Obama.

Although Paul didn't the get the ticket, I will vote for McCain. While I think he is old and disagree with him of many things ranging from the war and civil liberties, hopefully I can count on him to veto most of this crap the democrats will send through.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Why do people say this? Of course making 102k a year is wealthy. Where do you live, the hamptons?

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No, Sasaki, I live in a mixed white collar/blue collar area about 20 minutes west of Detroit.

Where do you live, bubble**** nowhere, where you can buy a mansion for a 100k?

100k isn't wealthy in the slightest for a family of four, especially when you take into account the costs of higher education and other assorted costs.