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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Please, for the love of God, at least try to address what the other side is arguing about before beating up your "crime doesn't pay" straw man any more.
It doesn't matter of the criminals were in the wrong; of course they were. What matters is whether or not the shotgun-wielder was wrong, legally or (as per my argument) morally.
It doesn't matter who the men he shot were. His actions were in the wrong. One wrong never justifies another.
@Dave: that was painfully hysterical. I'm pissing my pants with laughter as we speak. You should be a comedian.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xiahou
If, instead of being killed by a law-abiding suburban home owner, they had been killed during a drug deal gone bad- would we even be talking about this?
Probably not - but I guess the thought of your friendly elderly neighbour being somewhat trigger happy and apparently pretty eager to actively seek the confrontation and kill people for things has a more frightening touch for some of us as it is much closer to your "normal" life than drug dealers killing each other.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reverend Joe
Okay, put it this way: if you were in a back alley in Harlem I know you wouldn't be, but for argument's sake, it's basically an equivalent situation for these guys) and a giant black guy came out of a door with a handgun and said, "Freeze, sucka!" don't you think there is even the remotest possibility you might panic and run?
Well, if you did no wrong, why not? Those guys were told to stop after they robbed a house and had loot in their hands.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Did anyone hear ?..... Lemur was right!!
what a guy....
from just a quick read through of the thread (short on time) i would call his actions wrong, i wouldn't say he would deserve much of a punishment, it seems similiar to the case with the farmer in Britian a few years back (david something or martin something... name escapes me....) shooting someone in the back as they run away is quite a harsh thing to do even if they have some of your property or your nieghbours property, i wouldn't shoot someone for a material possesion even if i am a poor person....
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Furthermore, if I was helping my friend move via a broken window and then while crossing thru the neighbor's yard, the neighbor pointed a shotgun at me and said "move and you're dead", I would probably stop...
How fast are your reactions ?
That tape seems pretty much stop bang
If it was a police officer who said stop and shot straight away would you be screaming police murder ?
Come to think of it doesn't this count as an extrajudicial killing, you know getting rid of criminals without all the legal crap of trials and such .
Isn't that one of the measures the State department uses to measure how screwed up other countries are .
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reverend Joe
It doesn't matter of the criminals were in the wrong; of course they were. What matters is whether or not the shotgun-wielder was wrong, legally or (as per my argument) morally.
As stated before by Lemur's post - the man was found to be technically within the law for his actions.
Quote:
It doesn't matter who the men he shot were. His actions were in the wrong. One wrong never justifies another.
Again legally it has been determined that he his action was not wrong. Now what you are speaking of is not a legal issue, but one of ethics. I to find his action ethically wrong but the man was within the law according to the Grand Jury refusal to bring criminal charges against him.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemur
Joe Horn: "I've got a shotgun; you want me to stop him?"
Dispatcher: "Nope. Don't do that. Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?"
Joe Horn: "Hurry up, man, catch these guys, will you? Because I ain't gonna let them go. I'm gonna kill him."
Dispatcher: "OK, stay in the house."
Joe Horn: "They're getting away!"
Dispatcher: "That's alright."
Joe Horn: (Shouts to suspects) "Move, you're dead."
Three gunshots can be heard on the tape. Both suspects were shot in the back and were pronounced dead at the scene.[/indent]
oooh, that's a shame.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LittleGrizzly
Did anyone hear ?..... Lemur was right!!
what a guy....
Finally, someone puts this thread back on track. Thank you good sir -- thank you.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Lemur WAS right. You guys have to focus some of your attention on that. :smartass:
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reverend Joe
No, it's not... if laws are immoral, they are wrong. If this man was fully within his rights, then the laws need to be reformed.
Are your moral values the standard to which the law needs reforming?
It's a tough call. If I were to break into someone's house to steal stuff, I would expect to be threatened if I were caught, but I'm not sure if I'd threaten my neighbours' burglars. I have no faith in the police, however. To clarify, were they already on the scene by the time this old bastard blew the robbers away, or were they just on the phone with him?
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
As stated before by Lemur's post [..]
As in: the Lemur who was right after all?
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
To clarify, were they already on the scene by the time this old bastard blew the robbers away, or were they just on the phone with him?
Listen to the audio or read about the police eyewitness to the actual shooting and it might answer your question:idea2:
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Redleg
As stated before by Lemur's post - the man was found to be technically within the law for his actions.
And as I was saying... sometimes the law is wrong, and needs to be reformed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoreBag
Are your moral values the standard to which the law needs reforming?
Not in an absolute sense, but America is supposed to be a democracy, and in a democracy one must make one's opinion heard. Since my moral standards stand completely against such a law, I must make my voice heard. If the marketplace of ideas states I am wrong, so be it; but it still does not strip me of my right to speak dissent, and dissent is (supposedly) the founding ideal of the United States of America.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
So he killed them some 5-10 seconds before the police appeared? He went out and shot them, after the dispatcher guy specifically told him several times not to do this? They would have been arrested anyway, the police was practically on the scene when it happened. The guy doesn't deserve any sympathy, he should be tried for what he did. And what kind of 61-year old computer technician have a shotgun in his house.
And that crap about neighbours helping each other out - that means you can borrow some coffee from your neighbour when your out of, or ask them to water the plants in front of your house when you're on holiday. It doesn't mean go on a killing spree with a shotgun in front of my house where my children might play. Especially since the guy was 61 years old. Not exactly in his primes. How was he so sure that his aim was good? Personally, I'd rather have stuff from my home stolen than have an elderly, trigger-happy computer technician with a shotgun on the loose in my neighbourhood...
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sarmatian
So he killed them some 5-10 seconds before the police appeared?
My guess is that one officer was already present when he shot the robbers. The officer was probably waiting for backup before he tried to apprehend the robbers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sarmatian
And what kind of 61-year old computer technician have a shotgun in his house.
A Texan.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoreBag
To clarify, were they already on the scene by the time this old bastard blew the robbers away, or were they just on the phone with him?
From the reading, it looks like they were simply on the phone.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
From the reading, it looks like they were simply on the phone.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:unbelievable:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: :laugh4::laugh4:
Go on Kush say it again give us a good laugh .
Its a miracle the robbers were seen running by the police after they were shot dead , I suppose they have super video phones in Texas nowadays eh :dizzy2:
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reverend Joe
And as I was saying... sometimes the law is wrong, and needs to be reformed.
Didnt say the law was right or wrong. Personally the law should be clarified since the intent is to insure that an individual has the right to protect his life and property from immediate threat, This is something I support. Do I find shooting individuals who are fleeing the scene in the back is completely justified - nope. However if an individual comes into my home to rob me, I expect the government to allow me to protect my property and my life. Any law that does not allow for an individual to protect his life and property is an unjust and untenable law.
Quote:
Not in an absolute sense, but America is supposed to be a democracy, and in a democracy one must make one's opinion heard. Since my moral standards stand completely against such a law, I must make my voice heard. If the marketplace of ideas states I am wrong, so be it; but it still does not strip me of my right to speak dissent, and dissent is (supposedly) the founding ideal of the United States of America.
Good thing that most americans still believe that the right to defend one's life is still a fundmental right to existance. I can not support any arguement that prevents an individual from protecting his life and his property. Now you can argue that when its outside the home the immediate and reasonable fear of one's life is in danger is not there, and I would support that arguement, but when the criminal is inside the house - well a reasonable man should and does currently have the right to defend his life and property.
Like I said earlier the shooting does not seem ethically justified to me, but the law was not violated by the Texas man. Nor does it really demonstrate that the law should be reformed in such a way from that prevents an indivdual from being able to use deadly force to protect his life and property.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sarmatian
Especially since the guy was 61 years old. Not exactly in his primes. How was he so sure that his aim was good? Personally, I'd rather have stuff from my home stolen than have an elderly, trigger-happy computer technician with a shotgun on the loose in my neighbourhood...
Given that he killed both of them - chances are his aim was good enough with the shotgun.
Now I guess you dont think a computer technician can not be an individual who has a shotgun for hunting? My 65 year old father has several shotguns he uses for hunting different game birds, should I tell him that since he is over 60 he shouldn't have any weapons?
Such a postion is just laughable. Seems someone has a problem with anyone old. Being over 60 does not mean the individual is infirmed and has poor vision.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemur
My guess is that one officer was already present when he shot the robbers. The officer was probably waiting for backup before he tried to apprehend the robbers
Yeah, after listening to it again, it seems so. So, not only that the guy killed two people, he also endangered the lives of other civilians and possibly policemen, too. And the fact that they were illegal immigrants makes no difference - he didn't know that when he shot. And even if he did, it's not his job to deal with immigrants. illegal or not. I can't believe that they didn't put him on trial. The info on the tape was enough to make it the shortest trial in the history of US.
"People vs Joe Horn, honourable judge X presiding"
"We'll start by listening to the tape"
(7 minutes and 34 seconds pass)
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, have you reached the verdict?"
"Yes we have, the defendant is guilty of murder and negligence, of being a homicidal maniac and an idiot in general"
He should be sentenced to life in front of a firing squad, with his back turned to the firing squad of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Redleg
Given that he killed both of them - chances are his aim was good enough with the shotgun.
Now I guess you dont think a computer technician can not be an individual who has a shotgun for hunting? My 65 year old father has several shotguns he uses for hunting different game birds, should I tell him that since he is over 60 he shouldn't have any weapons?
Such a postion is just laughable. Seems someone has a problem with anyone old. Being over 60 does not mean the individual is infirmed and has poor vision.
You don't say? I somehow think it's different shooting birds and small game in the hunting ground and shooting people in populated areas when there could be other people, police officers and even children, but that could be just me...
Just tell me, at what age are police officers usually taken of the streets in the US? Are they still on the streets when they are 61? Do police send 61 year old men to deal with situations like this one? I'd say no. Why do you think is that? And if I'm not mistaken, he fired 3 shots.
My father is 68 and if he was the type to go out for occasional hunting, I'd advise him not to. He's still sharp, but his reflexes, his eyesight, his hand-eye coordination etc... is far cry from what it was 20 years ago. And if it's not life or death situation, I'd prefer not to see men his age carrying and using lethal weapons "for fun". Gardening is just as useful as a hobby...
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reverend Joe
@Dave: that was painfully hysterical. I'm pissing my pants with laughter as we speak. You should be a comedian.
Pissing in your pants ain't looked to kindly 'round these parts...
Bang!!!
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemur
My guess is that one officer was already present when he shot the robbers. The officer was probably waiting for backup before he tried to apprehend the robbers
Can't find which story it was yet, but I was under the impression he had just arrived on the scene- ie: Horn was already out on his porch. Bet yet again, the specifics are scarce. :shrug:
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Lemur Was Right.
Now on to the trivial points others have made...
I believe people have a right to defend their property with deadly force. Goods just don't plop down in your house, you have to work - spend part of your life - earning them.
Defending other's property is just being neighborly. As to getting shot in the back - that doesn't prove as much as where, geographically wise, they were shot. It takes a split second to turn. And the police officer at the scene said one appeared to be running at the old man for a moment.
That same officer, which tribesy is mentioning just to boost his ego correcting some people who have read a brief article, was a plainclothes officer who did not intervene (perhaps wisely). That's the only 'police' who were "on the scene", and obviously couldn't be easily identified if they didn't ID themselves.
And Horn was in the right by the law. Now to all the whiners, there's one simple lesson. The robbers started this - they instigated it. But, plainly, you simply shouldn't rob people in Texas.
And the BBC wonders why America is such a tranquil place.
CR
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Wow. Nine and a half hours, and over 100 posts. I think that's a record, exceeded only by the 9-11 thread back in 2001.
Bravo Lemur. :2thumbsup:
sotto voce: And you were right. :)
Moral of the Story: don't steal stuff. Folks don't like it. Whether it's $2K worth or :2cents: worth.
And, of course, I have to address the '61 year old' thing: I'm 57, and am willing to match my shotgun marksmanship against any and all takers here. :)
Guy watches a crime being committed against a neighbor. Calls it in. Waits. Cops are a no-show (except a plainclothes, unidentified, dude). Bad guys are getting away. Does he take some photos of the perps, or brandish, then use, a shotgun? In Texas, the firearm rules, and the courts support it. A good camera might have been preferable.
If I went to Columbia, couldn't find work, and so reverted to a life of burglery - would I be surprised to find myself at the business end of a firearm while pursuing my 'trade'? I don't think so.
Don't steal. Don't lie. Don't cheat.
Just like Sister Lucia said in 3rd Grade. It gets you nowhere, and maybe hurt, or killed too soon.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
And, of course, I have to address the '61 year old' thing: I'm 57, and am willing to match my shotgun marksmanship against any and all takers here. :)
This thread is full of ageism, the guys age should not be the question here, whether he's a 61 year old in a wheelchair or a special forces guy in the prime of his life it shouldn't be different in the eyes of the law, his actions are what matters.
Is this readable kurki or would you like the text a little bigger ?:laugh4: :laugh4:
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Came for the Texas + Guns story, stayed for the Dave and Lemur Show.
:balloon2:
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tribesman
Listen to the audio or read about the police eyewitness to the actual shooting and it might answer your question:idea2:
Or you could just tell me in the same amount of time that it takes for you to try to be glib.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reverend_Joe
Not in an absolute sense, but America is supposed to be a democracy, and in a democracy one must make one's opinion heard. Since my moral standards stand completely against such a law, I must make my voice heard. If the marketplace of ideas states I am wrong, so be it; but it still does not strip me of my right to speak dissent, and dissent is (supposedly) the founding ideal of the United States of America.
That seems a bit circular, but fair enough.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoreBag
To clarify, were they already on the scene by the time this old bastard blew the robbers away, or were they just on the phone with him?
Hard to say with certainty. A plainclothes officer witnessed the final moments, and the dispatcher knew that he had "officers who aren't wearing uniforms" in the area. Personally, I suspect that the plainclothes was waiting for backup before he moved on the scene.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
If I hear one more I-love-guns idiot bitch about how these guys deserved it, I'm gonna find his address, politely knock on his front door (unarmed, of course) and, when he comes to the door, I will flatten his nose across his face.
THE POINT IS NOT WHETHER OR NOT THE ROBBERS DESERVED IT. AS THE SAYING GOES, TWO RIGHTS DO NOT EQUAL A WRONG. THIS MAN DID SOMETHING WRONG, WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS WITHIN HIS RIGHTS, AND HE SHOULD BE PUNISHED FOR IT. AND THE FACT THAT HE WAS WITHIN HIS RIGHTS SHOWS* THAT THE LAWS SHOULD BE REFORMED.
*In my HUMBLE goddamn opinion. Happy, Neongod? :wall:
edit: reformed for proper size. I should have never unleashed the text size demon.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Nah, dude, I'm not. He didn't do anything 'wrong'. I don't believe in wrong and it doesn't bother me that he wasted two guys who were, in all likelihood, very, very desperate people trying to scrape together enough cash to get on with their lives. My own Nihilism aside, there are other people here who think he was in the right, hence my comment about the circular logic - your opinion has been pretty loud, but you admit that it doesn't matter once you're outnumbered. That's a different matter entirely, however. Get back on IRC and we can internet-yell at each other until one of us passes out from intoxicants, if you like.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoreBag
Get back on IRC and we can internet-yell at each other until one of us passes out from intoxicants, if you like.
Been celebrating Canada Day as well, GoreBag? ~;)
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Evil_Maniac From Mars
Been celebrating Canada Day as well, GoreBag? ~;)
Man könnte's sagen.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
And the BBC wonders why America is such a tranquil place.
How many shootings and violent robberies are reported to have taken place just in Houston this past week Rabbit .
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
My tuppence worth, as if anyone cares.
If someone was breaking into my house and stealing my stuff damn right I'd shoot them, it's my stuff, I worked for it and as for the burglars you pay your maney and make your choices. Crime is a risky business and if you choose to do it you need to live by the consequences, one of which is the possibility of getting shot. So, do I value a life more than a TV, depends on whose life and whose TV, if it was my TV and someone druggy burglar that I didn't even know then the TV comes out on top.
As for this example, shooting them in the back when they weren't even stealing your stuff? I don't think I'd go that far.
For the people arguing the moral side, yours or mine?
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Meh, I've got a slightly different take. If someone breaks into my house and steals my crap, that bothers me, but I wouldn't kill for it.
If someone breaks into my house while I and/or my family are in it, then I'd make it clear through noise that someone is here, while calling the cops and loading my gun. If a burglar hears someone at home and flees, then fine, that means they were only after stuff and not us, let the cops deal with it. If they hear someone and stay, or worse try to come find us, then that tells me they're extremely dangerous and I'm going into kill mode, no questions asked or further warnings given. They had their warning and chance to get out, fight or flight style. Staying is equivalent to fighting, and I'm going to kill them any way I can because I would be in fear for my family's and my life.
As to the Texan yay-hoo as the subject of this thread, perhaps I am dense (ok, so I am) but I'm having a bit of a difficult time getting the exact 'facts' on what happened, therefore I reserve judgment. Shooting someone in the back is always questionable in my mind, but again it depends on the circumstances if I'd view that as murder or self-defense. And I definitely don't feel the least bit bad for the thieves, especially given they have prior histories. Stopping short of saying they got what they deserved, as Kukri said, a life of crime is always dangerous and these are the risks, I'm sure those two knew very well what those were and this time they failed their saving throws. heh.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
If I hear one more I-love-guns idiot bitch about how these guys deserved it, I'm gonna find his address, politely knock on his front door (unarmed, of course) and, when he comes to the door, I will flatten his nose across his face.
They totally deserved it. :yes:
Don't you believe in personal responsibility?
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Some day I will move to Texas, that will finally allow me to vshoot those pesky 3 year-old girls who come onto my lawn to steal flowers.
Apart from that I would like to discuss how shooting someone who is running away with your big flatscreen TV in front of his chest is going to save your TV? If the bullet is not going to penetrate your precious TV in the first place, the guy will fall right on top of it and crush it. :dizzy2:
If you value your TV that much, your first concern should be to keep the guy carrying it healthy upright until he has carefully put the TV onto the ground, everything else is contradictory bollox.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
Some day I will move to Texas, that will finally allow me to vshoot those pesky 3 year-old girls who come onto my lawn to steal flowers.
Apart from that I would like to discuss how shooting someone who is running away with your big flatscreen TV in front of his chest is going to save your TV? If the bullet is not going to penetrate your precious TV in the first place, the guy will fall right on top of it and crush it. :dizzy2:
If you value your TV that much, your first concern should be to keep the guy carrying it healthy upright until he has carefully put the TV onto the ground, everything else is contradictory bollox.
No, no, no. If you shoot him at an angle he will spin around, clutching the TV and fall on his back - making a perfect cushion for the flatscreen. Then all that has to be done is to pry it from his cold, dead fingers and resume your normally scheduled programming. ~:doh:
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Curious implication, that the potentially dangerous situation which the chap himself created allowed him to fire his weapon without legal consequences. Probably the letter of the law, probably not the spirit.
Anyway, I'm having trouble caring less about what happened to those two or Horn. I don't think the guy should have shot the robbers, but the fact remains he wouldn't have even thought about doing so if they hadn't been there in the first place. If slow police response time isn't going to prevent that kind of robbery or the chap taking justice into his own hands, I think there are some other issues to be bothered about here. Still, the legal precedent is curious.
Edit: oh yeah. Lemur was right!
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
They totally deserved it. :yes:
Won't shed any tears over them but it's still odd that this doesn't make it to court. This law seems a bit old-fashioned, can't shake the feeling that was meant for a situation where someone runs off with your cattle, have a nice starvation. It's a bit of a missed opertunity, plenty debate here I think this law needs some re-evaluation.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Maybe it's just me, but in my circles if someone found out their house had been burgled, even if they caught sight of the burglars, their primary thought would be to think of ways of bigging up their losses so as to claim more from the insurers than the stolen property's worth.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tribesman
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:unbelievable:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: :laugh4::laugh4:
Go on Kush say it again give us a good laugh .
Its a miracle the robbers were seen running by the police after they were shot dead , I suppose they have super video phones in Texas nowadays eh :dizzy2:
Have you been drinking or something?
I read the article and didn't see any mention of police presence when he shot the man. I didn't see your other condescending post either, so my mistake.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sarmatian
You don't say? I somehow think it's different shooting birds and small game in the hunting ground and shooting people in populated areas when there could be other people, police officers and even children, but that could be just me...
Birds are harder to hit because they are smaller....(just to be a smart***)
Now if one is questioning his judgement I wouldn't have a problem with it at all, I find his judgement in the shooting questionable.
Quote:
Just tell me, at what age are police officers usually taken of the streets in the US? Are they still on the streets when they are 61? Do police send 61 year old men to deal with situations like this one? I'd say no. Why do you think is that? And if I'm not mistaken, he fired 3 shots.
My father in law was a police officer until his retirement at 65. So yep older gentlemen have the ability to reason and even handle stressful situations. I find your inablity to understand that when an individual reaches the age of adulthood, age rarely has the effect on judgement that people think. If you can prove he was mentally impaired because of senility or other mental incapaticiting age related conditions - I might see your point, but nothing demonstrates he suffered from such a condition.
Quote:
My father is 68 and if he was the type to go out for occasional hunting, I'd advise him not to. He's still sharp, but his reflexes, his eyesight, his hand-eye coordination etc... is far cry from what it was 20 years ago. And if it's not life or death situation, I'd prefer not to see men his age carrying and using lethal weapons "for fun". Gardening is just as useful as a hobby...
If the man can physical handle the weapon and the conditions one faces while hunting - then let them hunt. Nothing prevents him from doing that - expect your own age prejuidice. My 65 year old father still works construction, running heavy equipment and welding. He is in far better shape then many 20 year olds. So get off the age bashing unless you can prove the man had a physcial or mental age related condition.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
No, no, no. If you shoot him at an angle he will spin around, clutching the TV and fall on his back - making a perfect cushion for the flatscreen. Then all that has to be done is to pry it from his cold, dead fingers and resume your normally scheduled programming.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Out of interest does anyone know what happened to the goods the thiefs were carrying ?
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Sometimes this forum is just amazing.
A white grand jury dismisses the case against a white guy who shot two Latinos in the back over someone else's tv. And we're discussing the legality of it.
D'uh!
I think the police should have shot everyone involved: the burglars, Joe Horn, the :daisy: neighbor, everyone.
Why should the taxpayer be burdened with the cost of investigating other peoples' business? I mean, what's a couple of lives to any of us? Come on, my Granddad could have killed all of you when he was 61.
https://img389.imageshack.us/img389/...unyfarmjw0.png
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adrian II
Sometimes this forum is just amazing.
A white grand jury dismisses the case against a white guy who shot two Latinos in the back over someone else's tv. And we're discussing the legality of it.
Well yeah were discussing the legality, what are you getting at
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Musical score
https://img370.imageshack.us/img370/9139/hack1bq7.gif
The streets were dark with something more than a bad setting in my video options panel. I sat in my car with the window turned down listening to the little lady on $10 heels making me propositions while my cup o’ coffee went stale.
https://img107.imageshack.us/img107/...lery128ap5.jpg
The sleepy night cop passed by on his daily round. The clock struck twelve. That’s when I knew ‘Popeye’ was dead. At my age you know people. And you know death.
Panzerjäger had been his real name. I knew I liked him the moment he walked in that joint where I had my weekly appointment with a bottle of gin. A big, loveable hulk of a guy, Popeye had more heart than brains, but he had enough of both to give him ideas for the rest of his life. That’s how we got talking.
He said he was with the cranky crowd, and that’s where he was alright. He walked with the black shirts. But he didn’t belong to them. He wanted to belong to America on his own terms, not America’s, and that made him more of an American than he would ever realise.
You couldn’t trust Popeye with your vote, but you could trust him with your wife, your wallet, or even your car. Know what I mean?And I knew that, for all his bragging and feigned indifference, if I ever needed him to pull me out of trouble he would be there. That’s why I called him that night. He promised to meet me at midnight. I knew he would. Unless they got to him first.
They probably did.
What’s it to me? I don’t know. In my business, you have to look after number one. That’s what I told myself while I hit the gas and cast a last look in my rear mirror at the hot number with her lopsided grin.
Three days later someone dropped the police report on my doormat. In my line of work someone always does. ‘The deceased, a Mr P., was accidentally shot while trying to protect an unarmed individual from being mugged. Police mistook him for the robber. The victim of the attempted robbery, a 31-year-old jobless man with no fixed abode who claimed to be a professional guitar player, denied having any personal association with the deceased.’
Shot while protecting a hippie, of all people.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
OK this just screams for a talk-noir contest. Andres GARCON
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
OK this just screams for a talk-noir contest. Andres GARCON
Wrong thread. Whatever. Cornell Woolrich.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adrian II
Cornell Woolrich.
`
Ah I see. So how long have you two been dating?
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
Ah I see. So how long have you two been dating?
Forget it, pal, unless you show me the color of your money first.
Adrian II is having a noir period. And it fits him like a glove.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
:laugh4:
Im not sure what, if anything, that had to do with me but I liked it.
:inquisitive:
Wait, did you imply that I date hippies?
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adrian II
Forget it, pal, unless you show me the color of your money first.
Adrian II is having a noir period. And it fits him like a glove.
You might like this thread.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Redleg
Birds are harder to hit because they are smaller....(just to be a smart***)
Now if one is questioning his judgement I wouldn't have a problem with it at all, I find his judgement in the shooting questionable.
Just to make it clear - I wasn't saying that the shooting would have been justified if he was younger, only that there is a decent chance of eyesight, hand-eye coordination and therefore his aim being bad since he is 61 years old.
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My father in law was a police officer until his retirement at 65. So yep older gentlemen have the ability to reason and even handle stressful situations. I find your inablity to understand that when an individual reaches the age of adulthood, age rarely has the effect on judgement that people think. If you can prove he was mentally impaired because of senility or other mental incapaticiting age related conditions - I might see your point, but nothing demonstrates he suffered from such a condition.
Again, I didn't say that people can't work in the police when they're 61 or older, just that you'll rarely see them on the streets, making arrests. Older people will usually be involved in administrative duties within the department.
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If the man can physical handle the weapon and the conditions one faces while hunting - then let them hunt. Nothing prevents him from doing that - expect your own age prejuidice. My 65 year old father still works construction, running heavy equipment and welding. He is in far better shape then many 20 year olds. So get off the age bashing unless you can prove the man had a physcial or mental age related condition.
I'm not age bashing! For the love of God people, stop looking for "isms" whenever someone criticize something. I already said that I believe it was wrong. Moral and legal implications would be the same if Mr. Horn was 20 years old. I was saying that I would rather have 2000$ worth of my property stolen then to live next door to an elderly trigger happy person. To quote myself:
Quote:
Personally, I'd rather have stuff from my home stolen than have an elderly, trigger-happy computer technician with a shotgun on the loose in my neighbourhood...
Not that I would be okay with living next door to a 20 year old trigger happy idiot, but at least the chance that his eyesight, reflexes or anything else is not the best is much smaller.
Let me give you similar example, like when you're driving in a car with someone in his thirties or with someone in his seventies. Not that I haven't seen people aged 70+ drive safer then some much younger people or that I think it's impossible for elderly people to drive safely, but, everything else the same, I'd feel safer with a younger guy, especially if I don't know the person well. Get my point? Now, I'm even more touchy when it comes to guns.
Disclaimer: I love elderly people. My parents are elderly people. Ma grandparents aren't alive anymore unfortunately, but if they were, they would be elderly people. I have a lot of elderly people in my family and I love them very much. When I was younger I used to offer my seat in the bus to elderly people if none other was free, I used to help (and I still do) elderly people across the street and with their groceries or their bags. So please don't accuse me of ageism or age bashing... And anyway, it was a minor point in my post :yes:
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tribesman
How many shootings and violent robberies are reported to have taken place just in Houston this past week Rabbit .
Are you unaware of what I'm referring to? Why don't you go look it up?
Quote:
If I hear one more I-love-guns idiot bitch about how these guys deserved it, I'm gonna find his address, politely knock on his front door (unarmed, of course) and, when he comes to the door, I will flatten his nose across his face.
Some people answer their doors with guns on their hips, you know.
Oh, and the robbers deserved it.
And that is kind of the point. One can intervene with deadly force to protect a third party's life - why not then to protect their property, as one can protect one's own property?
I can not fault Joe Horn for walking outside and confronting the burglars - for fighting that cruel indifference hoisted on us by certain parts of society - the voice that says to shrink from confrontation instead of sticking up for what is right.
And I can fault no person for shooting known criminals if they know you have a gun and yet run at you. That is what the undercover cop said one criminal did - ran at Joe Horn for a moment. He gambled, having lost one gamble already.
CR
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
I think Joe should just count himself very lucky that they weren't armed, how many times do homeowners try to protect themselves with weapons only to find the criminals better equipped, more skilled with a gun or more prepared to pull the trigger.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LittleGrizzly
I think Joe should just count himself very lucky that they weren't armed, how many times do homeowners try to protect themselves with weapons only to find the criminals better equipped, more skilled with a gun or more prepared to pull the trigger.
That's why you make sure that, as the homeowner, you shoot them first?
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
That's why you make sure that, as the homeowner, you shoot them first?
Thats why you stay the hell out of the way, call the police and barricade yourself in a room until they go, though if it comes to it and your face to face guns in hand, yes.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LittleGrizzly
Thats why you stay the hell out of the way, call the police and barricade yourself in a room until they go, though if it comes to it and your face to face guns in hand, yes.
So the police come late and never catch them, meaning they're not much of a help in the first place? Yeah, sounds wonderful.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sarmatian
Just to make it clear - I wasn't saying that the shooting would have been justified if he was younger, only that there is a decent chance of eyesight, hand-eye coordination and therefore his aim being bad since he is 61 years old.
To bad that isn't what you initially stated. In fact you would still have to prove this impaired his ability to reason for the action to be wrong. So in other words it truely has no bearing on the issue at hand.
Quote:
Again, I didn't say that people can't work in the police when they're 61 or older, just that you'll rarely see them on the streets, making arrests. Older people will usually be involved in administrative duties within the department.
Well since my father-in-law was a cop, and was involved in arrests and yes even a shooting of an individual who broke into someone's home and threaten them harm - that yes even when police are in their 60's they do perform such duties.
Quote:
I'm not age bashing! For the love of God people, stop looking for "isms" whenever someone criticize something. I already said that I believe it was wrong. Moral and legal implications would be the same if Mr. Horn was 20 years old. I was saying that I would rather have 2000$ worth of my property stolen then to live next door to an elderly trigger happy person. To quote myself:
Not that I would be okay with living next door to a 20 year old trigger happy idiot, but at least the chance that his eyesight, reflexes or anything else is not the best is much smaller.
So if I was a young trigger happy person it would make you feel better about yourself? Did you know that a 20 year old is more likely not to take aim, just fire randomly at the target because they watch all those movies and see how gang bangers shoot their weapons? So yes your indeed age bashing wether you wish to acknowledge it or not.
Quote:
Let me give you similar example, like when you're driving in a car with someone in his thirties or with someone in his seventies. Not that I haven't seen people aged 70+ drive safer then some much younger people or that I think it's impossible for elderly people to drive safely, but, everything else the same, I'd feel safer with a younger guy, especially if I don't know the person well. Get my point? Now, I'm even more touchy when it comes to guns.
compare accident rates between the individuals in their 30's versus individuals in their 70's. Your stuck on criticizing people for being old and functioning on their own. I know more irresponsible 30 year old drivers then I know 70 year old irresponsible drivers.
Quote:
Disclaimer: I love elderly people. My parents are elderly people. Ma grandparents aren't alive anymore unfortunately, but if they were, they would be elderly people. I have a lot of elderly people in my family and I love them very much. When I was younger I used to offer my seat in the bus to elderly people if none other was free, I used to help (and I still do) elderly people across the street and with their groceries or their bags. So please don't accuse me of ageism or age bashing... And anyway, it was a minor point in my post :yes:
- notice how you claim you aren't but claim you feel safer with a younger driver. .... Spend much time along the nile.......
So back to subject - the man exhibited poor judgement in his actions - just like the poor judgement of the younger men to committ a criminal act in robbing the house. Poor judgement effects those of all ages.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adrian II
Sometimes this forum is just amazing.
A white grand jury dismisses the case against a white guy who shot two Latinos in the back over someone else's tv. And we're discussing the legality of it.
Yep - I was rather amused that this wasn't brought up earlier by someone. I strongly suspect one of the reasons that no criminal charges were brought forth by the grand jury is because of the illegal immigrant status of the two dead men.
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I think the police should have shot everyone involved: the burglars, Joe Horn, the :daisy: neighbor, everyone.
Actually I wonder why the plain clothes officer didn't indentify himself to none of the parties involved?
Quote:
Why should the taxpayer be burdened with the cost of investigating other peoples' business? I mean, what's a couple of lives to any of us? Come on, my Granddad could have killed all of you when he was 61.
Well I can one-up you on that, my great-grandfather who lived to be 101, could of killed everyone when he was 98.....
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
So the police come late and never catch them, meaning they're not much of a help in the first place? Yeah, sounds wonderful.
well everyone lives!
I suppose this comes down to how much you value a criminals life, I value all life highly and if were talking someone like a petty criminal i wouldn't really value thier life any less than the normal person, i could only take a life in extreme circumstances (or unintentionally)
speaking of age has anyone else noticed adrains avatar age dramatically ?
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LittleGrizzly
well everyone lives!
Breaking into my house, stealing my goods, and directly or indirectly threatening myself or whatever family or guests I have at the time is already enough to warrant a bullet, at least from my point of view. I don't support the death penalty, but if I catch someone doing these things in my house...let the courts decide whether I am right or wrong.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Well in this thread at least it was someone else's property that was taken, and from the sounds of it they where shot in the back, i don't find turned backs to threatening...
I can understand going for someone you discover in your house or even trying to give chase to recover property but i couldn't and wouldn't shoot them in the back as they run away
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
I support this guys use of deadly force. This sends an appropriate message that I wish was sent more often.
The act was just, the law agrees and so do a number of people on this forum.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
The reason it isn't sent more often is homeowners out trying to take on a criminal in a gun often lose....
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LittleGrizzly
The reason it isn't sent more often is homeowners out trying to take on a criminal in a gun often lose....
Show me a statistical source for your claim, please.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Show me a statistical source for your claim, please.
Damn you people and your like of evidence.... ill search it up tomorrow im heading off to bed now, this isn't actually a statistic i have heard or read but i think its a fairly obvious one. The criminals are almost always better armed and more skilled with thier weapons... I know if i was a criminal with a gun going into households that are potentially armed i am going to be packing some pretty mean weaponary and im going to make sure i can use it properly, add to this the fact the homeowners aren't prepared and the criminals are..... you have a recipe for a fight that is going to go in favour of the criminals much more often....
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LittleGrizzly
Show me a statistical source for your claim, please.
Damn you people and your like of evidence.... ill search it up tomorrow im heading off to bed now, this isn't actually a statistic i have heard or read but i think its a fairly obvious one. The criminals are almost always better armed and more skilled with thier weapons... I know if i was a criminal with a gun going into households that are potentially armed i am going to be packing some pretty mean weaponary and im going to make sure i can use it properly, add to this the fact the homeowners aren't prepared and the criminals are..... you have a recipe for a fight that is going to go in favour of the criminals much more often....
so... pure conjecture? I appreciate that you will look for the numbers. If a criminal really thought he would meet heavy enough resistance in a private residence while stealing jewelry and a television, maybe he would just rob a store or bank instead of bringing an M1A1 with depleted uranium to the suburbs, no?
lets find the statistics and argue in the morning, k?
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LittleGrizzly
The criminals are almost always better armed and more skilled with thier weapons...
I beg to differ. An illegal immigrant who bought/stole a pistol versus a forty-year old average, gun-owning, American male?
No contest.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Grizzly, you're from the UK, right?
Over here, people with guns tend to know how to use them. The homeowner almost always comes out on top in gunfights, if the crooks are dumb enough to stay for a gunfight and not run off.
I must admit I'm a little tired of anti-gunners completely making up stuff to support their positions.
Quote:
well everyone lives!
So what? Need I bust out that John Stuart Mills quote?
CR
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crazed Rabbit
And that is kind of the point. One can intervene with deadly force to protect a third party's life - why not then to protect their property, as one can protect one's own property?
Shooting with a shotgun on people carrying property will most likely make the property filled with bullet holes. Not a good way of protecting that property I would say.
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According to the statute, deadly force is justified if the shooter "reasonably believes" it's immediately necessary to stop the burglars from escaping with the stolen property. It's also justified if the shooter "reasonably believes" that "the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means."
Personally I find that pretty loose, basically it's death penalty on burglary, (home invasions I can understand).
But seriously, freed after:
"Hurry up guys, I'm not gonna let them go, I'm not gonna let them get away with this :daisy:"
"I can't take the chance of getting killed over this I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot"
"I don't want to, but if I go out what choise do I have"
"I have the right to protect myself and you understand that, the laws have been changed in this country since september the first"
"I'm gonna go out and find out"
"Here it goes buddy (click), you hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going. (click)"
Some sounds that doesn't sound like shouting, then 10 seconds after the last click "Boom you're dead" (calm voice)
2 shots, then 7 seconds later one more shot.
(More stressy voice) "I had not choice, the came in the frontyard with me man, I had no choice"
Taken from Lemur's link.
IMO clear cut case of someone considering killing robbers and then claim self defense.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Redleg
To bad that isn't what you initially stated. In fact you would still have to prove this impaired his ability to reason for the action to be wrong. So in other words it truely has no bearing on the issue at hand.
That's what I initially stated.
Quote:
Especially since the guy was 61 years old. Not exactly in his primes.
So I made a point and then I further stressed it by saying that the guy isn't in his primes and there was a decent chance that his eyesight isn't the best.
It doesn't matter, it was a minor point. And I really don't feel like explaining why there is a decent chance that someone over 60 could have bad eyesight.
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So if I was a young trigger happy person it would make you feel better about yourself? Did you know that a 20 year old is more likely not to take aim, just fire randomly at the target because they watch all those movies and see how gang bangers shoot their weapons? So yes your indeed age bashing wether you wish to acknowledge it or not.
No, read what I said. But, using your style, here I can say that I know a lot of young men who take aim and in general take guns very seriously and tell you to stop bashing young people.
This is getting boring. Believe what you want. If it makes you happy, yes, I was bashing old people. In fact, I hate old people. If I had the power, I'd kill them all. Burn them at the stake, like inquisition. Anyone over 40. To stop polluting beautiful planet Earth with their wrinkles.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sarmatian
That's what I initially stated.
So I made a point and then I further stressed it by saying that the guy isn't in his primes and there was a decent chance that his eyesight isn't the best.
you focused on his age, not his actions. Care to guess the percentage of over 60 that actually still have good eyesight and reactions? But then I am just being a smart***
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It doesn't matter, it was a minor point. And I really don't feel like explaining why there is a decent chance that someone over 60 could have bad eyesight.
the excuse of someone you realizes their arguement was weak in the first place. Why point out age in the arguement about a poor individual judgement, other then to bash the abilities of people of a certain age group.
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No, read what I said. But, using your style, here I can say that I know a lot of young men who take aim and in general take guns very seriously and tell you to stop bashing young people.
Again nice try but work a little harder - because you just argued yourself into my point. Don't make claims that your not willing to provide evidence and proof that its valid each and every time. You made a generalization about a specific individual without knowning if its actually valid or not. Discuss the man's general poor judgement in taking this action, and wether or not you feel the current law is valid or not. Age was not the issue for this man's actions in the first place.
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This is getting boring. Believe what you want. If it makes you happy, yes, I was bashing old people. In fact, I hate old people. If I had the power, I'd kill them all. Burn them at the stake, like inquisition. Anyone over 40. To stop polluting beautiful planet Earth with their wrinkles.
Oh I believe you think you know that because someone ages that they must necessarily have decreased abilities, as a general rule this would be correct when discussing the general population. However when speaking of individuals be very wary of making that generalization, because as we have seen there are always individuals that prove the generalization wrong. When discussing individual cases its best to stick to the individual facts. The man made a poor judgement on the situtation, it had nothing to do with his age and his ability to fire the weapon. The poor judgement was purely on his firing the weapon at the two criminals. A forty year old individual could make the same poor decision, just like a 20 year old, or any other age group for that matter.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Talking of ageism, I make better informed poor decisions these days.:shame:
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
Talking of ageism, I make better informed poor decisions these days.:shame:
classic :2thumbsup:
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Redleg
you focused on his age, not his actions. Care to guess the percentage of over 60 that actually still have good eyesight and reactions? But then I am just being a smart***
Oh, my God, you really don't know when to quit, do you? I don't know the actual percentage but I'd guess it's a fair share.
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the excuse of someone you realizes their arguement was weak in the first place. Why point out age in the arguement about a poor individual judgement, other then to bash the abilities of people of a certain age group.
No. But if you want to decide for me what I said or meant, feel free. I'm not going to argue that.
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Again nice try but work a little harder - because you just argued yourself into my point. Don't make claims that your not willing to provide evidence and proof that its valid each and every time. You made a generalization about a specific individual without knowning if its actually valid or not. Discuss the man's general poor judgement in taking this action, and wether or not you feel the current law is valid or not. Age was not the issue for this man's actions in the first place.
I never said it's valid each and every time, just often enough for it to be taken into consideration. Don't argue points I'd never made, it doesn't make sense. I see you're having problems so let me try to explain in more simple terms. Let's say I make a statement "In Russia people are poor" and you are trying to refute my claim by saying "It's not true, Roman Abramovich has 50-60 billions". I know that Roman Abramovich has loads of money, and that there are millions of rich Russian citizens but that doesn't change the fact that generally standard of living in Russia is low. Do you understand? Or I can say "Chemotherapy helps people suffering from tumors". You can think of millions of examples where it didn't help but that doesn't mean that it doesn't help at all. I can make a claim that is generally true, or is true in most cases. It doesn't have to be true in 100% of cases.
My point was based on a simple logical premise:
A big portion of people over 60 have problems with their eyesight, with hand-eye coordination etc...
Mr. X is over 60
Therefore there is a decent chance that Mr. X could have problems with his eyesight.
Understand? Comprende? Verstehen Sie?
No, it doesn't mean that in 100% of cases people don't aim properly when they're over 60, I never said that, so lay off unless you can prove that peoples eyesight usually doesn't deteriorate in that age, because that was my point. And when there are other peoples lives at stake, even 10% is enough for me to make a case. I don't want to think about whether my kid is going to be close when tenth trigger happy idiot refuse to listen to the police and goes on a killing spree. As I said in my first post, they should lock him up and throw away the key.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sarmatian
Oh, my God, you really don't know when to quit, do you? I don't know the actual percentage but I'd guess it's a fair share.
Naw I know when to quit - after the individual admits that he initially spoke bullocks, taking a saying from tribes.
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No. But if you want to decide for me what I said or meant, feel free. I'm not going to argue that.
LOL - you know that perception of what you say is just as important as what you think you said.
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I never said it's valid each and every time, just often enough for it to be taken into consideration. Don't argue points I'd never made, it doesn't make sense. I see you're having problems so let me try to explain in more simple terms. Let's say I make a statement "In Russia people are poor" and you are trying to refute my claim by saying "It's not true, Roman Abramovich has 50-60 billions". I know that Roman Abramovich has loads of money, and that there are millions of rich Russian citizens but that doesn't change the fact that generally standard of living in Russia is low. Do you understand? Or I can say "Chemotherapy helps people suffering from tumors". You can think of millions of examples where it didn't help but that doesn't mean that it doesn't help at all. I can make a claim that is generally true, or is true in most cases. It doesn't have to be true in 100% of cases.
Someone is having difficultly following - one can not make a generalization about an individual. It is easily disproven especially when one speaks without knowledge of the situation. You have done so and you continue to dig yourself deeper into your untenable positon.
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My point was based on a simple logical premise:
A big portion of people over 60 have problems with their eyesight, with hand-eye coordination etc...
Mr. X is over 60
Therefore there is a decent chance that Mr. X could have problems with his eyesight.
Understand? Comprende? Verstehen Sie?
As stated before making generalizations about individuals happen to be a poor arguement and easily defeated. Oh I understood your premise completely the first time, however the actions demonstrate that his eyesight wasn't bad, just that he exercised bad judgement. Your stuck on defending a generalization that you spoke of without thinking through the fact that the event involves an individual.
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No, it doesn't mean that in 100% of cases people don't aim properly when they're over 60, I never said that, so lay off unless you can prove that peoples eyesight usually doesn't deteriorate in that age, because that was my point. And when there are other peoples lives at stake, even 10% is enough for me to make a case. I don't want to think about whether my kid is going to be close when tenth trigger happy idiot refuse to listen to the police and goes on a killing spree. As I said in my first post, they should lock him up and throw away the key.
LOL your stuck on the wrong arguement once again. Rather amusing dicussing poor eyesight of a man who happen to shoot 3 times and kill two men. Again eyesight has nothing to do with the situation - poor judgement is what caused the situation. So you want someone to lay off your tangent maybe you should think about withdrawing the tangent arguement in the first place.
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
And the moral of the story is: Don't steal other people's crap. Justice prevailed.
I'm not going to bother replying to DevDave's nonsense, because he's just doing his usual trolling. But PJ, I ask you honestly if you really believe this was justice. That it's okay to murder people who are stealing from you, even if they clearly pose no thread of harm to you. And if you answer is still "yes," then my next question is how far do you take it?
If this scenario had been the same (i.e. criminals fleeing from the scene with stolen goods), but instead of a good old boy from Texas doing the shooting, it was a Korean grocery store owner in LA, and intstead of a couple of illegal Mexicans doing the running, it was a couple of middle class 12 year old kids who were shoplifting some candy for the thrill of it, would you still say justice had been done?
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Re: I Told Ya So: Texas Man Cleared for Killing Burglars
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FactionHeir
Well, let's see.
1. They were in the process of stealing when he noticed them and called 911.
2. He only went outside when they ran with the goods and crossed his property
3. He told them to stop but they didn't.
4. He shot, but we don't know if the intended to kill with those shots.
5. You expect a 61 year old man to keep up with two young men and manage to beat them with a baseball bat?
Sorry, but point 4 just made me laugh so hard I almost busted a gut. Let me be perfectly clear:
If you aim a shotgun at somebody and pull the trigger, you either:
1) Intend to kill them,
or
2) should not be allowed to own a shotgun (ar any type of firearm) because you are so woefully ignorant of the properties of a shotgun that you thought you could execute a surgeon-like wounding shot with your shotgun.
