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Hey folks,
Thanks for the invite, don't think I'll be able to take you up on it at the moment but I'm hoping this isn't the case in the future. In the meantime, this setup looks pretty interesting and I'm sure I don't even need to wish you "best of luck" with it. :yes: :wink:
Thanks GH, and I hope to see you here in the future!Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief
In SS it gets progressively more difficult for a woman to give birth past 30. Around 40 it's pretty much useless to try. Which is why marrying the 40 year old virgin to an enemy FH is a great way to stunt his royal line.
That's really annoying then - we have 4 princesses which we could have married off to generals, but its too much of a risk, as unlike in the Middle Ages in MTWII you've only got one shot at it.
Save's done BTW.
so it is!
I was hoping House Stark and cecil would make it, but it is just the first turn so I think they will be okay.
Hold on, NB can you recruit a Spy for me somewhere? I need to see what the ERE has this side of the Bosphorus.
Also. who of the player characters holds any title? I remember a list of titles that the King can give out.
In V&V we rushed off in all directions starting wars with all our neighbours and got our asses handed to us by Cecil who was hotseat-controlling them all. It took us months to dig ourselves out of the hole.
Just don't say I didn't warn you all.
yep, I got one going for you in targoviste. Also, mithridate will be joining the game on turn 2. Welcome!
BTW Targoviste has always been a Bulgarian city. Hence no "Emir" for it as well. This is a girl I know from that town:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
She doesn't look like princess Jasmine from Aladdin, hence no Emir of Targoviste, please :laugh4:
Monkey: I don't want us to fight everyone. Ultimately though, it's up to the GM and he can always stomp the players, just like in a DnD game. If NB roleplays the ERE correctly they will be much weaker than what a SS game suggests, since the ERE traditionally had huge civil wars and a lot of backstbbing. Emperors changed on a regular basis and there was always some usurper somewhere grasping for the throne. Giving anything to Joe Schmoe who thinks he is emperor now is foolhardy, as in five years some new young buck can grab the throne and start a war to reclaim all of our lands under the pretext of it being part of the ancient Roman Empire at some point. I'm also hoping that the Pope and the Seljuks/K-shah and Egyptians can all lend a hand in reigning in the ERE.
Plus, we have HA's, so we can manage. Unless I've severely underestimated the ERE's strength in Europe they should not be able to stomp us effortlessly. Mikan's army alone is enough to stalemate that stack if lead correctly, and the settlements in Greece and Serbia are all poorly garrisoned.
The Cumans are quite bloodthirsty but that is only natural. But since there's no Mongols to be had there ain't no one that will step up for them, and if indeed the man with the tall white hat launches a Crusade against them, we can splatter them with the Crusader mercs.
Venice/HRE are the pre-ordained and GM approved conflict at the moment, and of that only Venice is a problem with those two stacks. If Rome doesn't help us with them, we can at least stall with forts until they overextend and are trapped in our lands. It might even be better to give them Zagreb if that means we can have Venice and it's trade!
In game terms, the ERE don't have Constantinople which means they cannot recruit/retrain Scholarii. Their other cav is tough but not capable of stomping human controlled armies just like that. Their infantry is HA fodder and thankfully they don't seem to have great archers that are available outside Constantinople. Overall, giving that city to the ERE and allowing them to recruit from it in an RR/RC game will just spell disaster whenever some ERE leader decides to attack us down the road.
With sufficient infantry I'm hoping that Ignoramus can defend the city in a few lead battles, that will give the rest of us more time to grab land. Whatever money I sack in the future I'll divide between him and you to bolster our two defensive forts. Cecil's and Zim's characters can both look to expanding our borders in the mean time.
Thank you! Looking forward to this experience, this is exactly what ive been searching for... a long time :)
I agree completely with our good king, we have a lot to gain and little to lose holding Constantinople and taking ERE holdings in the balkan. Holding the city may risk uniting the ERE nobles with a single goal, but if held against an assault they should shatter and start fighting each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Venice is a great threat, but should not stray far from their pretty city.
btw I want to recommend a game out of the blue:
If you have not tried it, download Mount and Blade: Warband. Its very similar in ways to this, if you have questions about it just PM me and ill answer any questions. I also recommend updating and downloading the Diplomacy mod and battle sizer whom turns this "old" goldie into pure platinum. In short its a strategy rpg where you can build up an army and even empire literally from dirt bottom. Its hard to get into the first few hours but if you like this, i find it hard to belive you would not like or probably love MnB:Wb
Sorry bout that, TW may hold the spot next to my heart but that game is not far behind. All marvelous in its simple complexity!
I think I tired it before, wasn't it an MMO type thing? Plus I'm divided between Skyrim and a SS 6.4 SP campaign as Hungary. With Longer Assimilation on it's real fun, and those starting lands are very defensible! And they can recruit Hungarian Nobles from turn 1, making them one of the most fun nations to start with!
I also have to write, do my After Effects project AND do my duties as CM... If I only had 40 hours per day...
You have heard reports from the East that Savas is a particularly well liked and successful ruler. He led the Byzantines to completely destroy turkey which had pushed them mostly out of Anatolia, and has won himself the devoted loyalty of many generals.
So bear in mind that while the ERE certainly is a mess quite often, it is currently under the sway of a very successful, but also very old (73), ruler.
You also should't feel like fighting them isn't an option though. I'm not out to kill you guys, but to give you a fun and challenging ride.
He's 73? Ain't no way in hell that I'm giving up Constantinople now. He's well liked sure, but what if I offer Hungary's assistance to that general with the cav near Constantinople? With my backing we can make sure he becomes the next Basileos, or so he would think. Certainly better chances than simply starting a civil war.
Also, I bet the K-Shah and Eggies don't like him at all.
No its not an MMO type of thing :) You are a character on a say a map of Europe that interacts with towns, villages and castles to trade, recruit pesants, nobles and mercenaries to train for troops while interacting with the lands different factions and nobles, fighting tourneys and doing a lot of different "quests" and leading your troops and companions in battle :) Its a simple but also very very complex game. You should try it^^ See if you can become a lord or perhaps even king/queen It can be very hard, unless you cheat by reloading saves :P Skyrim is awesome, sadly i got fed up on it after spending nearly a week constantly playing it^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
He is terribly old, i wonder if they are united about his heir? Bringing a blade to whoever that may be seem like a good idea. Soon he will die and leave that terribly heavy burden of leadership that oh so many wants, but few can carry alone. If we intervene deftly they will stay divided, at least untill the balkan is ours and by then its too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbringer
What's all this 'your grace' business in the courtroom? They might call the King that in the game of thrones books but I'm pretty sure it isn't what anyone would have called the king in medieval hungary.
Sire, your highness, your majesty would all be fine I would have thought.
As far as I know 'your grace' would be reserved for an archbishop or a duke in england. To be fair I think the king of scotland used to be called 'your grace' but this isn't scotland!
I know, I am really pedantic but it is bothering me! :clown:
I've just spent the past hour and a half reading through the KotR Cataclysm thread, and boy, am I annoyed at how I squandered Wolfgang's position. But it was well worth the read though, and has reminded me once again why I love the Org and these games so much.
It seems those Slav levies I recruited in Sofia didn't get recruited. That means I ought to have 370 florins more.
BTW, who owns the spy that is sitting in my fortress?
The spy belongs to myth/the king.
Ignoramus, I think that is my fault due to some peculiar first turn events. When the turn started, you were not yet in the game and Myth made a request for your character to recruit cavalry in Sofia for the king, filling its production slots.
When I was finishing the turn I was setting this up and must have accidentally canceled your slav levies. You are of course reimbursed the 370 (now changed in the OOC 1st post and the save thread to reflect this), I hope it isn't too much of an issue, and I think such situations should not come up again in the future as every character now has a player.
Read this link, it really clears things up on who is who and who outranks whom.
Another link that has foreign titles included.
Bulgaria on the SS map consists of Sofia and Targoviste, although we've held Tessaloniki in the past as well. In order for one to be dubbed Duke of Bulgaria he must be the Baron or Earl of both Sofia and Targoviste and must be approved by the King.
On the subject of how it is proper to address someone, read this page.
In short, the King is addressed as "Your Majesty" or in some instances as "His Royal Majesty", the King's children may be addressed as "my Royal Highness". Dukes are addressed as "Your Grace" in England and as "Your Highness" in most other countries. Everything below - Count, Viscount, Earl and Baron are Lordships, ie. "my Lordship" or simply "my Lord".
You can't all be Dukes. This title is reserved for close relatives of the King or those of his closest friends he has elected to Dukedom. In fact the only one who is fitting to be a Duke is Bokeny and only if he is granted a nice city to be Duke over it's province. Like Constantinople or Tessaloniki.
Well, it looks like Groef is the most historically accurate title available. I am fine with using that, but it is certainly an unfamiliar word and since the game uses Duke I would be fine with sticking with that out of convenience.
What do other people think?
I'm ok with Duke, I'm not too hung up on accuracy (except your grace, it's driving me mad! I keep hearing Sean bean!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbringer
Ok, we have a problem - I just took those 4 cav along with me on my march to Thrace. So I guess I'll have to redo my turn.
Also, may I make a suggestion that the funds of everybody are kept private to all except NB? It would make the game more interesting.
Groef means Graf or Count in English. Count is fine. The SS team who made the titles focused on making the Western cities more accurate and threw the East to the dogs (as usual). The title of Duke is an important one and should not be used lightly. Everyone is a Count, Viscount, Earl or Baron unless the King says they are a Duke. NB can change title names accordingly via the console.
Also, Mithridate, I notice a trend in the way you speak in character - the Kievan Rus representatives in MoT is the same as your current character in this game. You speak brashly, yell a lot and have very strong opinions and tend to give orders. Such words as "we must decide" and such and such thing must happen does not fly in the 1200s where the King has absolute power. Try to be more suggestive and less provocative, please :yes:
What is this talk I hear of two stacks camped in front of Constantinople? Can I get a screenshot? Indeed I thought our finances were private, hence me protecting my spreadsheet with a password.
It is possible that his character is just like that Myth, I suggest you give him an IC warning. :)
And yes, your finances will be private from here on, I just posted them on the first turn because of various people coming in and out of the game. I wanted new people to know how much money they would have, and to have it public in case people had to leave right after starting. From now on all finances will be private.
Also, I can change the title in character descriptions to Count in this forum, but I would have to modify game files to change it in the game and that would require us to restart. So the actual in-game titles will still say Duke, even though you are all counts.
Now that we have got all the characters filled up with a stable group, I am going to remove funds from the character descriptions and change the titles to count.
Sorry about that, like the last issue, that shouldn't be a problem now that everyone is player controlled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignoramus
Also, since finances will now be secret, everyone should PM your end of turn report to me when it is ready, rather than posting it.
Myth, I know how frustrating it can be if things happen that seem to be ahistorical, but don't let that detract from it. If vassals are being too rebellious for your liking, do something about it. You got powers as King - use them to suggest that loyalty and obedience is more profitable and safer than disloyalty.
Just to let everyone know, I included a sample format for end of turn reports in the first post.
You can format them as you wish, but that is one example which is clear to me.
If nothing else, possession of two settlements and the King's Purse gives him a massive advantage incomewise. I can barely support my army if I leave the castle and lose the free upkeep.
Count sounds fine to me, although I rather like Groef.
Spoilered discussion starting here is likely might be better hashed out here in the OOC thread than trapped in spoilers in an IC thread...
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053414415
That post sounds more to me like how Kings expected feudalism to behave than how it was on the ground in most countries. Unless Hungary was radically different in that period from other feudal nations.
Realism is tricky in these types of games, and often comes to a balance between making the game fun and versimillitude (not quite the same as realism. an example of is how much "your grace" bothers Phonics even if it was the right address for some levels of nobility), and where that balance should be is likely to differ among all players. We just have to find a point at which everyone can compromise.
Funny thing is, the more I read about medieval history the more I suspect the players in these games actually argue less and act more united than actual rulers did, from France to Anatolia to Baghdad to Tokyo. :clown:
Anyone who wants to be a Groef just let me know, otherwise you will be a Count unless you come into possession of significant amounts of land, in which case the king might promote you to Duke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zim
I abandoned the first KOTN game exactly because TCV roleplayed the Basileus as the end-all, be-all ruler who owned ALL the armies and ALL the lands and no one could so much as speak rudely without worrying about being punished like a mischievous child. Even in my spoilered tag I said it makes sense game wise for the nobles to own their towns, otherwise the game will regress in a similar fashion.
I don't want to be a history nazi nor do I want to tell people what to do just because I got the King as a character, but a knight saying "our lands" in front of his royal sovereign is too absurd, hence me explaining feudalism. Monkey says he disagrees with "my view on history", I'd like to hear arguments and see sources of how feudalism actually worked which differ from my very simplified explanation, please :bow:
Once again: I understand that the King is in the most advantageous position mechanics wise and I do not want to force other players to grovel and scrape before me IC, that just sucks and repeats KotN all over again. I just want some historical accuracy at least fluff wise.
Two armies headed for Constantinople? NB I thought you said the ERE was tied up in Asia Minor :wall:
I'm sure it will happen Myth - as phonics points out, you alone can afford to maintain a strong army No one can even afford the expense of rebelling against you.
Not if they are his ancestral home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
I'd rather not go into too much detail about the reasons behind the very deliberate words I'm choosing (because it will spoil the game) but they make perfect sense to me given the backstory. My character's father was King before the current one. Then there was a deal between the two cousins quickly followed by a revolt / civil war. Think about it and you'll understand why I (and others) might feel that this particular King might not be as strong and able to be tyrannical as others.
EDIT: I don't have enough time to go into a full-blown historical debate about feudalism with you but I'll just quickly address your point by saying that I don't believe any King can ever rule without the consent of his nobles. They inhabit and bear arms to defend their lands and in that practical sense they own them utterly. History is full, absolutely full of examples of tension between the sovereign and his lords. Sometimes one has the political upper hand, sometimes the other.
Perhaps that does reflect them being tied up in Asia Minor. If you manage to get some spies to Syria, I think you will understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
That's a pretty big topic, and will likely need some sourcing from your end as well. All I can say for myself is that the common theme through university classes on medieval history was that feudalism was both caused by and a cause of decentralization. Monarchs would have much theoretical power but far less practical power to do what they want. Oftentimes even in situations where grants of land were not intended to be hereditary they became so (mid to late Ottoman history is a good example of this).
I've got the TWS2 rules revisions, work, and a night out with the wife this weekend, but I'll look through the books I do own on the subject when I can.
In the meantime rather than collect a few dubious internet sources or quick, possibly out of contexts quotes from flipping through aforementioned books I posted a thread on the topic in the monastery, where there are people more qualified than I to try to settle the matter one way or the other. The thread can be found here. :bow:
OK :) Well guys it appears I need to check the save before responding. Mithirdate has spoken to the Cuman Khan and we may yet turn his private dealings to our advantage. We have good news concerning Venice but apparently the French King has gone apesh*t and so the West won't really help us. There's much benefit to be had if we vanquish the HRE but we have to secure our positions vs the ERE/Cumans first.
I have an idea about funds - I think of dismantling the Scholarii Barracks in Constantinople. This will be represented as Pozsony abolishing the training grounds and indeed the organization of the Scholarii/Cathaphractoi of old, raiding their building for the gold. The gold I intend to split between the nobles so that they can recruit or not go into debt. I'll see if there's any other "ERE only" buildings that could go. We don't really benefit from the Scholarii Barracks anyway, and if the ERE gets Constantinople I don't want them to be able to recruit them at least for a while.
Hopefully I can match that force outside the city and we can also defend Varad from the Coo-mans.
Yes I understand that in Feudalism we had the constant back-and-forth between centralized power and local power. A strong King means more centralized rule, a weak king means the nobles do whatever the hell they want. This doesn't change the fact that he technically owed their land though. I do understand your IC post now, I had forgotten about the backstory.
True, but "technically" owning land or even commanding armies of supposed slaves (speak with some deposed rulers from Medieval Egypt or the Ottoman Empire about that latter one) is very different from actually doing so, especially in the premodern period. :clown:
At any rate, here's to crushing our enemies and driving them before us~ ~:cheers:
The Ottomans and slavery are a painful subject for any Bulgarian. We've been butchered and raped for 500 years by the Turks. They tore down everything they could - churches, castles, walls... The people were forced to live in fear and oppression. The capital of the Second Bulgarian Tsardom (Kingdom) is my actual home town of Veliko Turnovo. The castle has been reconstructed in the 1970s as we only have the foundations to go by. There is the terrific sound & light show there, though, and that's a sight to see. I have it posted on my Facebook and the videos are public.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Anyway the Ottomans were met with resistance in our lands at least. Several revolts happened and we never actually served them apart from the Janissaries who were taken as babies and raised to be part of the infamous warrior caste. This was called "the blood tax" and families would hide their newborn sons to avoid it. There's more and more absurdities and horrors I could mention but that's not the point. The point is that yes, being an overlord to unwilling slaves never works out. That's why the banking elite and the world "leaders" nowadays enslave us subtly, without the masses knowing it. That's a whole 'nother story however.
I'll drink to that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zim
And Myth, glad you catch my drift now...
Just letting you know I'll be away from tomorrow until the 23rd or 24th. I know it's really unfortunate, but hopefully given that each turn is 72 hours, we shouldn't have any problems.
BTW, Myth, I looked at the buildings at Constantinople - the Scholae Barracks can't be destroyed.
Darn, that was a really good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignoramus
I had a good look at Zagreb too to see if I could pillage anything but no such luck...
The Hagia Sophia could be destroyed, but then we'll never have peace with the ERE - and Andras wouldn't be happy, the pious chap that he is.
Ugh. My own ancestors had a history of being enslaved to fight for a foreign government (the British called it "impressment" in their usual understaded way :clown:) as well as a somewhat successful destruction of Irish culture.
Many among those of us that escaped to better lives elsewhere seem to forget about it over a couple generations, though...
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Igno where did you move my cav exactly? I needed to unify it with the King's stack, he is rushing towards Constantinople. He might even leave the infantry behind and just go with the cav.
If we'd co-ordinated better you could have saved me about 140 fl on magyar cav - seems poszony gets a discount on them if he's sitting in the castle when they are recruited.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Destroy the Hagia Sophia? Madness. If I could go back in time and rule a powerful medieval country in the area in that time period I'd be trying to save it. ~;p
Just think of the money Zim, all that beautiful money.....oops, giving myself away as the banking elite, better hush up now :clown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zim
The King hoofed it towards Constantinople last turn, he didn't sit back in Varad. The cav from Sofia could have caught up this turn but If Igno moved it somewhere else... :/ Why did he even move it without asking me?
I will be more subtle, or try to but my character is one with affinity to dread and money. But the demands are more than reasonable since i do have a Cuman army + reinforcements looting and killing outside my gates in such numbers that i will need help to expel them. I agree to the similarities to the MoT diplomat, but keep in mind those where former violent Norse conquerors who lived to fight unlike my current fellow. But maybe im inclined to "cunning" kind of characters even though i like Chivalrous way more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
After all, all the lords must serve to expel invading armies. Arguing over this and that does not serve that purpose, if i was there i too would demand decision and go back to fight for my lands.
And ill make sure to use the proper titles henceforth
On a side note I have to say how impressed I am with the game's start so far. So many new players and plenty of ic debate in the courtroom. It seems like a very good beginning.
I will be able to move my character and reply in the IC tonight, I wasn't able to do so last night.
The turn will probably run a little long this time since I don't want to stay up till 4 in the morning to catch it :)
It's really late today guys, an IC post tomorrow. Basically the war with the ERE was pretty much inevitable. The Cumans are headed for Varad, Mithirdate's character offered them tribute to leave his lands be. However we have his armies there as well as the other stack in Targoviste so we should be fine if you guys get to lead your battles.
Zim takes Belgrade, oh and also I'm pretty sure Venice won't attack us in earnest, they are there mainly for show. Phonics you can go and grab a settlement or help fend off the Cumans.
Today is a working day here in Bulgaria... :whip:
Would this be a bad time to point out I've never played Stainless Steel before? :sweatdrop: In anycase, I hope there are more generals available.
Unfortunately I wasn't able to take any screenshots of the battle. Not sure why things didn't work, but I think I know that I can do to get instant confirmation in the future.
Well, there was an adoption offer this turn but unfortunately it failed, even when I tried reloading a couple times. (if it could succeed, I would have asked if the adopter wanted to accept)
I will do the best a can to get another avatar available to soon though. Does anyone know of a way to use the console to get one?
Looks like I'm late to go after Belgrade any other preferred targets for Demeter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Sorry, I mistook you for Mikan's player. Zim you should go after the Cumans, but let me check the save first.
NB, is the sacking money from Belgrade sitting there for us to pick up or did it get lost when Mikan died?
One Cuman fortress in range, has a decent garrison but if I recall I can't see all of the troops in it so I can't vouch for quality.
Edit: Correct that. The bulk of their garrison seems to have wandered off somewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
I expect NB will ensure they wander back as soon as you siege itQuote:
Originally Posted by Zim
True. That would put us at even numbers if they didn't have even more troops around somewhere. Actually, I'd be at a bit of a disadvantage. Forgot I'd recruited three units for another player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey
you could go garrison-hunting first, knock them out and then go to the fortress
Maybe, Wish I had a spy, using cavalry for it is a bit of a pain.
Demeter waits on the word of his illustrious monarch. :bow:
Quote:
Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey
Yeah, expensiveQuote:
Originally Posted by Zim
I wouldn't move them so far as to become unsupported, but then that just leaves crappy range (need to return to army at the end of the turn) in addition to not seeing many tiles away (although at least my general ha a cav movement bonus).
Quote:
Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey
Who has the guy and armies sitting at Targoviste?
House Stark
Any directions from the King? I can sit tight and recruit some cheap units if need be.
Hmm, good question about Belgrade's sacking money. It never actually got sacked because it was taken when Cecil won the defensive battle, but I think I can make 1000 gold available for the money from just taking occupying a settlement. That money goes to Myth/King Pozsony since they are his troops. The settlement of Belgrade is also under his nominal control until it is claimed by another, just as Constantinople is.
Understood - but we need an avatar there if we want to control the troops in any battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbringer
correct. Otherwise it will be autoresolvedQuote:
Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey
There's a bit of chat going on about fighting each other's battles. As far as I know this has never been allowed in previous throne room RPGs (Zim, can you confirm?)
My own view (which may not carry any weight at all) is that we could perhaps allow the GM to fight if a player is absent for a crucial battle (eg. Mithri has let me know he's going to be away until 27th) but that it's against the spirit of the game to let players control each others avatars.
What does everyone else think? NB?
In past games from my recollection they've been a bit strict at times about players having to fight their own battles. One of the exceptions was if someone knew they were going to be away for a while (so people wouldn't lose their avatar just because they had a week long business trip or something).
Cecil or Ignoramus may be able to correct me. They've both been in these games longer than I have.
And, of course, it's entirely up to NB whether he'd want to follow any "precedent" or make his own ruling.
Yeah only if the person is absent or if the other avatar comes up as reinforcements and the player agrees. I asked Monkey if I could delegate the HA army to him though I'm fairly confident I can use them well even though I prefer western factions overall.
I am okay with players designating other players if they are going to be away and do so beforehand. It doesn't make a lot of sense in context, but I wouldn't want real life to force battles to be auto-resolved.
would also be fine with fighting the battle myself but I can see that some players would worry about my being biased since I am controlling other factions. I can promise you that my goal isn't to "win," so I would fight the battle for you to the best of my ability, but I don't feel comfortable forcing people to let me play the battle unless they miss the 24 hour deadline without letting me know they would be unavailable beforehand.
Also, just so everyone is aware, battles without a character general in them (ie, captain led battles) will be auto-resolved.
Happy to take charge of an army for you old chap. Apologies if I misunderstood you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
I meant the HA battle, though surely any excess troops can be distributed amongst the nobles. I grant you your recent conquest, btw how much longer until the save ends? I'll beable to lift the siege on Constantinople tomorrow.
I don't want to take credit for Cecil's achievement! But thanks and if you have the time perhaps you could do the same IC?Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth