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It's certainly enough for the US to charge him with 3 felonies and up to 30 years in prison and demanding his extraction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Those programs are quite a bit more restrictive and more heavily regulated even on the spying abroad part. Yours is of a "we gather everything and sort it out later"-type and while China probably has the same type, they are also known to be a dictorship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
I would not say he is delusional. There is a war on whistle blowers. If apprehended he could look forward to a very long time in prison. He can’t come home but he seems to be doing a lot to keep from becoming a martyr.
What he did was break a security agreement and release classified documents. But the agreement basically required him to be silent to illegal activities by the government, which is about the same as following an illegal order. It makes you guilty as well.
The fact that NSA was monitoring Americans illegally was already known but without the document he released on Vorizion no one had standing to take action in court.
This is the real damage done. It gives us a means to attempt to put an end to it.
I am not encouraged to know that we have secret courts overseeing our secret programs, particularly when they are clearly violate the constitution.
Saying Congress was briefed is a large disappointment. It just means they are also involved in the whole mess. All three branches seem fine in ignoring constitutional protections but would rather that we don’t know. They are all to blame.
Will anything come of it? I doubt it.
But remember this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qptZOMEwFXM
He's delusional, because he had no idea what he was getting into. If he was a true whistleblower, he would have remained in the US, stood up for what he thought was right, and taken his lumps. Instead he ran off, placed himself under the control of a foreign power, and promtply spilled the beans on a bunch of other stuff that isn't targeting US citizens. Did he think the Chinese or Russians would protect him just out of the goodness of their hearts? Everywhere he goes, he will have to pay for asylum with info.
He'll be on the run for a while, but eventually he'll get nabbed. And at this point, I have zero sympathy for him.
What? You mean to be a true whistleblower and get your sympathies he should face his inevitable death penalty in home sweet home?Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
I'd rather make a deal with Putin than get sentenced to death in the US. And to say he didn't know what he was getting into is weird given that he made his way to safety in time. I guess quite a few countries would gladly host him even without any info just so the US won't get him. At worst Russia might exchange him for a KGB whistleblower who ran to the US. Of course if such an exchange happened, the US would send just as strong a message to whistleblowers from their enemies...
He wouldn't have gotten the death penalty for the original leak. There was a pretty good chance his punishment would be fairly minimal, considering the publicity and nature of what he put out. Civil disobedience tends to lead to prison, that's part of the process. If he was a patriotic whistleblower worried about the rights of US citizens being violated, why spout on about hacked Chinese universities or the G8 thing, he's compromised and who knows what else he has given up. Now he's just a spy on the run and when he's caught he's going to get the hammer, the sooner the better. Staying in the US would have been a much better choice, the feds don't even have to prep a smear campaign, he's done it for them.
The number of countries that will host him for free is very small. The heat is not worth it, and it appears he wasn't specifically working for any one particular service, so no one owes him anything.
Well, the title of the thread asks us to judge (poll lacks Gah! option). He started out as a "whistleblower", although I was sceptical when he showed up in Hong Kong. Now he's just a rat spilling his guts for any chance to escape. The very definition of "compromised".Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Your analogy is lacking. After he told you your tires were flat, he preceded to tell your boss you are a drunkard, and tell your wife about your mistress. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
I go on about the abuses of the government a lot here, so I'm glad the issue is at least being discussed. But Snowden went about it in the absolute worst way, and has since shown that he either has no principles at all, or is completely naive. I'm beginning to wonder why he even bothered at all.
...Dude, that doesnt make him delusional, at best that makes him short sighted and maybe cowardly, which doesnt really discredit what he has done.Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
And why is that hard to understand?
When the people who are supposed to be carrying out the law are criminals working against your interest what makes it so wrong to share what they are doing with a rival gang?
Is that some how making it worse? Is it hard to understand the feeling of betrayal. We don’t know what he has seen and not shared with the public. Or what has not been reported.
People should be upset with the government yet this seem a matter of trying to kill the messenger.
Anyone remember this from Obama's campaign platform?
Since he's been in office he's busied himself cracking down on them.Quote:
Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.
I don't think Snowden is a hero. But I don't think he is a traitor either. My personal, unfounded opinion is that he started out as a well-meaning whistleblower who quickly found himself a pawn in International power plays that are beyond his understanding. I think he's just completely in over his head and has been so since the beginning.
Well, the problem is that you drink too much and cheat on your wife. Those are problems you created and things you lied about.Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
It's really funny how everyone keeps blaming and badmouthing the chinese for hacking into servers in the US when the US are doing the same in China. What he did was pretty much dismantle your perceived moral superiority in certain things which now looks like hypocrisy.
On a whole I would still rate the US as more moral than China but it's like you're really trying hard to get there one whistleblower at a time.
It isn't easy to see why the state would get more upset over technical details leaked to rivals than generalities to global subjects?
You cannot be a traitor to the United States as long as you stand to uphold the inalienable rights protected or suggested under the Constitution. If the flag, the government, the people stand in the way of service to the idea of a free people, then they are the traitors. There is no allegiance to government necessary for being a patriot, only to the rights of individuals.
This isn't red team: bad, blue team: good anymore. Too many Americans live in this inbred 19th century concept of nationalism. The flag is meaningless without the individuals rights, the consent of the governed. The people condemning Snowden for exposing truth are the enemy. The people upholding and defending expanding secret courts, secret government to protect people from a bombing every once in a while are the enemy. Their threat and damage to a free people are greater than any realistic al-Qaeda threat.
"Traitor" is only a matter of numbers. If everyone but you is a "traitor" by your reckoning, then you are in fact the traitor.
The state, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
But the people, no.
If I want my country to be the good guys and advertise that all the time then I am upset about the state doing this in the first place.
The fundamental truth of any populist based government is, "that it is wholly owing to the constitution of the people, and not to the constitution of the government" that we find ourselves in the condition that we do.
The obesity crisis has mimicked our own unhealthy public discourse and a people cannot expect to be looked upon as victims for refusing to understand "garbage in, garbage out".
Snowden is that guy who shows up at a dinner and mentions that thing no one wants to talk about.
O' Bama doesn't need to talk; after all he informed the House
The Reps don't need to talk about it; what people don't know can't be held against me... besides its a secret
The secret court; well that's just obvious...it's a secret :p
One clown ventures outside the "cone of silence" and see what happens! At least he should get an atta boy from the populace; but a lynching is preferable in some circles...
At the moment you could still say that Snowden is working for the government and their propaganda apparatus.
All of the focus is on him.
It is not on the revelation of the extent of government intrusion and spying. It is not on the abuses of government in targeting journalists by the DOJ or conservatives with the IRS and who can say what else.
We are not having a debate about government and individual rights, we are focused on this guy.
Revelations of this magnitude should bring down the government. Nixon was brought down by a bungled attempt to spy on the DNC.
Here we have an administration trampling on everyone’s rights and spying on us all, yet the press is not outraged.
It is supremely stupid to take a partisan view of this. It involves both parties and if one administration is allowed to abuse its power what will stop the next?
The media has no credibility any more, they are just party organs. How is this going to generate any outrage just because the next guy dose the same thing?
It is important to recognize that media are a bunch of party organs; Entrenched interest groups that have no interest in individual rights. Americans need to recognize the colossal forces against their interests that work tirelessly to strip them of their rights.
Nixon spied on other politicians.
This spying is about the serfs. Quite the difference.
Does it make you feel cool when you call yourself a serf?
Things I have learned from this thread
-The US spies on China and that violates treaties! Of course no one spies on America
- Both the UK and Canada have as invasive or more invasive programs and yet America is to blame.
-The government is simultaneously suppressing Snowden and allowing him to speak to keep our eyes off the ball (lolololololol)
With any luck the Russians will interview him, find out he knows fuck all, and keep him in the airport. Make a reality TV show out of it. "I thought I was Jack Ryan and all I got was this seat in the Moscow airport" I'd watch that.
I would love to visit these fairy tale worlds some of you live in, Where power politics don't exist and nothing happens when the door closes.
Read up about the five eyes.
When someone talks about US spying that includes Canada, UK, NZ and Australia. There are shared facilities in each of these countries and shared protocols. The Australian government are already in damage control over what Snowden will reveal about its spy network. How does he know it? Because the large amount of information shared by the five nations means they are all complicit in the same programs being key contributors and users of each others information.
Morality?
The government is exploiting the slow nature of the law. No one ever said anything you did would be protected when you plugged in. You may have assumed that, but you know what they say about assumptions. Expecting your government to "behave" is naive. Expecting your government to behave while you clamor for more protection is stupid. Expecting power politics to have anything to do with sustainability means you haven't been paying attention.
Didn't Xaihou have a Washington quote in his sig once? Something along the lines of treating the gov't like a carefully stoked fire. Crap in crap out fellas, Some of you saying the traitor lines fell right in lockstep a few years ago. Not suprsing but lamentable none the less
Strike, I'll be frank: your posts have nothing to do with what anyone else has been discussing. At least, I can't see their relevance to the posts of others.
It's as though you're just talking to yourself; it's kind of disturbing.
Doesn't it make more sense to just pace around your room, flailing your arms and baying at the ceiling? Or if it's the public nature of the forum that attracts you, then just take your act to the nearest town square.
I see it all the time. There's no shame in it. To see it on a website, on the other hand, is just confusing.
I fell in lock step years ago. I've be been burned since, personally, professionally, and politically. The well oiled, bureaucratic machine is an awesome thing to behold when you feel like you are in control, but when it is riding rough-shot through your front door you have a different perspective. The type of candidate that I will support in the future is a more hands off, permissive candidate. The era of 9/11 is over, it has to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
This is the type of issue that re-defines political perspectives for a generation. One that libertarians and progressives can come together on that exposes the statists (which I used to be). I was 18 when I signed up for these boards and terrorists had just flown planes into the twin towers and the Pentagon, killing 3000 and injuring 6000. Since then, we've figured out that we should lock cockpits up tight because they are flying missiles. The nuclear spying may or not be warranted, but an invasive security state to prevent a bus or two from blowing up up every few years is not worth it, even if i'm on it. Drink bottled water and get the government off of our backs. This State is a greater threat to us than the terrorists.
False.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Tuff Stuff and cube quoted
UMAD
Is this the part where I claim I have aspergers and that I'm really "gifted" but my teachers don't "understand" me?
???Quote:
Drink bottled water
Don't worry so hard about terrorist attacks on water supply.
We're doing a better job with fracking than the terrorists ever could. The best/worst a terrorist would ever manage is to take a crap in a reservoir.Quote:
Don't worry so hard about terrorist attacks on water supply.
Aside from the ecological, macroeconomic, and budgetary pitfalls of relying on bottled water - plus the effect of plastic on your own health - over municipally-purified water:
*Quite a lot of bottled water is merely bottled tap water, which means the source is exactly the same
*Even if the source is some spring somewhere, consider that the vast aquifers, reservoirs, and groundwater beds of the US of A are magnitudes of order vaster and more dispersed than the sources for 'higher-end' bottled water
***Meaning that they are less vulnerable to everything and anything that a terrorist could bring to bear
*The supply chains of bottled water corporations are more vulnerable to sustained terrorist assault than those of the weightiest state in the world
***The government keeps many billions of gallons of clean water on stock in case of emergencies
Bottom line: A terrorist starting forest fires is literally the worst thing that could happen to this country by terrorism, short of widespread deployment of NBC.
Good points, all - except for this one. I was thinking about bottled water of cooled brita as a time delay. If the source is corrupted, tap drinkers can find out first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
The rest of them are good. I fully don't understand what the point of invasive security is at this point.
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
If you want a less invasive government, you want less government. :yes:
The revolutionary concept of American Government was that government should be the servant of the people, not their master. It is also the foundation of the modern democratic state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Most, if not all, of our western democracies seem to have forgotten that fact.
Modern legislative bodies make laws favoring the corporation over the people. The peoples rights are disregarded in the face of a perceived security threat. The government thinks it is the caretaker of us and we are no more than children, and of course, children need no rights as the government parent cares for them.
The people provide the money to operate the government but more important is that the corporations provide the money to elect the politicians and positions on their boards once they leave office or positions as lobbyists to the institutions they have retired from.
The governments rule the people and the corporations rule the governments.
Of course some industries lose out to the interests of others. Right now coal is losing out to oil with the closing of coal fired power plats. But government is pretending to save you from all that pollution, that was actually removed in the 1970s with the scrubbers. Do you really think coal emits more CO2 than oil? It is just another bait and switch.
The difference is that in China the government is the corporation and in Mexico it is a little more overt, mostly because your domestic press complains about what is happening elsewhere but it doesn’t serve them to point out how it is all working at home.
Fire, not coffee, ladies and gentlemen. It's the only way.
But coal is by far the dirtiest fuel....there's science and everything
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...thout-warrants
The old thread, who says I just mutter to myslef?
Edit: Pindar was a grown man playing with children
GOd, I would be laughed out of this forum if it was 2005.
Oh man, that was when Tribesman was still around. The memories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Pindar was a god among men on these boards. Adrian and Red Harvest were no sloutches. We have fallen dramatically since then. I would have probably agreed with Pindar, partly because of his well formulated points, partly because my awe-related adoration of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
We are all a bunch of frivolous noobs now. We've sunken to the level of tribesmen - intelligent enough people who were too unserious to formulate professional arguments and instead demean one another with clever quips, like I am doing now with this passive-aggressive post.
Where did all of the Constitutional attorneys go? TinCow is an attorney, right? I used to learn so much here. I'm going to go to law school, just so I can post briefs and case law on the org. Does anyone know where I can do this as cheaply as possible, because I don't plan to ever get a job in that field, due to my obvious intellectual, physical, and personality disabilities.
Its time to go to work as a claims adjuster... Blegh.
The thread SFTS quotes is about warrant less spying on foreigners.
So it looks like it is now warrant less spying on locals if they might be talking with foreigners... and everyone else just in case.
But since these are all obscure processes that have a secret court. Exactly what is and isn't looked at is speculative. Its also the very definition of not accountable or transparent.
How can people possibly consent to a government whose laws, courts, and interpretations of those things are secret. The idea that consent of governed is a factor in government power has become an international farce. How can I have an allegiance to this government as it doesn't even pretend to inform or represent me.
Oh well, they will come and get you for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg
So Where did they go?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg
People for the most part have been to polarized and partisan on the issues of the day to see the general situation of degradation.
In reality there are the people and there is the government-corporate complex. Everyone just knows what they are fed from various media outlets, and those are mostly just more partisan distractions.
It is long past the time for a wake up.
And Devastating Dave and Gawain of Orkney... Legends of the org...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Just take a look at this
Such a fine line between trolling and hitting a nail on its head. Pure genius. And the smileys... Oh, the smileys...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Sugestions?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
I wish I had some good ones but all I have at the moment is use multiple sources from both sides to keep your self informed, talk to people about the problem and look for alternatives to mainstream politicians and parties.
IIRC, the thread was about warrantless eavesdropping on Americans when they were party to foreign calls that were already under surveillance... something like that. What we've been talking about in this thread has some similarities, but this is more about using a dragnet to pull in all manners of data- foreign and domestic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Yeah... Pindar was one of my favorite posters....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg
A gentle push-back against the golden calf:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Pindar, for all of his good qualities, was wildly uneven in the application of his rhetoric. He would (politely) tear into the most picayune and abstract depends-on-the-meaning-of-"is"-is detail of a position with which he disagreed, putting in a very lawyerly turn (the sort that doesn't actually work very well in, you know, a court of law, but impresses the hell out of philosophy students).
And then he would allow the most wild-eyed, illogical rants pass, so long as they were in agreement with his personal politics. Here's a good example. Note the misspellings, the multiple malapropisms and grammar errors, the unsubstantiated assertions, the leaps in logic, the foam-flecked rantish quality of the quoted post. And the god among men's response? "Truth to power."
Honesty is not selective, and intellectual curiosity doesn't give free passes.
His absence is a loss to the forum, for sure, and I miss him as much as I miss Adrian and Gawain and DevDave and many other fine posters. But the hagiography of Pindar has always struck me as, well, idolatrous.
No one is perfect. But even as a relative newbie here, I can tell that in every discussion there needs to be "that guy" that pulls the lawyer speak out. Just as there needs to be "that guy" that wants to dissect everyone's language. And "that guy" who is able to make the most blunt, but apt points in response to your furry of words and then laugh at your meager attempt at pinning him with more walls of text.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
They all contribute a different way of ascertaining the truth although the men themselves might not be consistent or well intended. When you have succeed in exposing the hypocrisy or half-truth behind the legalese you will find yourself in agreement with others who with their own contribution work together at picking apart the common enemy. That's what I took from the thread Strike linked. There is much to be missed in not having the "constitutional expert" come by to explain why your privacy is silly and why 1984 is perfectly legal and sane.
Well, they all have one imperfection in common:
They're not coming here currently.
Oh, stop. You wish you could be him. Clearly he was selective in his application of critical analysis; he was a Mormon. I'm selective too, I'm a Catholic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Let allied posts go under the radar unless they suggest something that is not allied, irrespective of the merits of the argument. Let your opponent take issue. Save your breath for the fights that you want to have. To not attack everyone for logical errors doesn't mean that you are dishonest, it means that your time is worth correcting the most serious errors which irritate you.
Example - I'm absolutely opposed to the practice and rationalization of abortion. I don't correct allies when they apply religious rationale to their arguments in support of mine. I take issue and voice it when they insinuate that they want a theocratic council deciding which secular laws pass divine muster.
Here we part ways. I am more irritated by irrational, illogical, sloppy reasoning by people I agree with than the reverse. But then, I do not live in a dualistic us-v-them kinda world.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg
Truth is truth, honesty is honesty. When you let it all slide to score a point for Your Team, you are knowingly, willingly lowering your standards.
I think a lot the old vanguard are overrated. They were articulate and could make their positions sound more solid than they really were. I remember Tribesman being caught out and looking pretty silly once when somebody finally managed to gauge a proper reply out of him. I also remember Adrian being outright wrong on something that was something of a local issue and common knowledge for people like myself, which he tried to argue for whatever reason. Although he was good to me when I made one of my earliest posts here, around the time I became a Christian, so I am thankful to him for that. Don't get me wrong, he was a great contributor, but the golden era of the Backroom was defined by its culture, not its characters.
Indeed, what I bemoan is the change in the debating culture here. It's fine to make sly quips and play the superior intellectual that transcends the discussion, but you have to earn that status by backing it up with solid posts elsewhere. I think there's a lot of faux-intellectualism and circle-jerking these days, and not a lot of substance and real debate.
So how is suffocating on nostalgia going?
Also, I don't see MY name on that list.
There are occasions where I have been genuinely impressed by people on the "other team". I was debating a while back, I think it was about the UK? Anyway, some one was saying something I heavily disagreed with and I turned around and said to them "If I am being honest, go and read some of Furunculus's posts. Whilst he is 'On your team' he makes some excellent arguments and logical cases in your favour, better than you are expressing yourself".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
He is an example of a poster which I do disagree on ideological points with, but I cannot argue his logic and reasoning because within his framework "Best interests of the British people", he was most certainly right. On the other-hand, I have more global reaching approach, so I viewed the situation more as "Best Interests of Mankind". Obviously these positions can conflict, but was a more a matter of stance than irrational opposition.
I think it is more popularism than ideology though. As you see with "flip-flopping", people change their opinions like they change briefs if it suits their cause. The whole concept of going to one room full of people and saying one thing, then walking into another and saying completely and utterly different, only to return to the other position for a different group should be lambasted and political suicide. I think it is fine for people to change opinions and as such, if they do change opinions, they should say why they did. More open and honest communication should be the way forward, unfortunately, honesty gets lost in the white-noise of popularism and whimsical attention span.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Latest round of spying docs are in. Looks like the EU mission in Washington DC has been bugged by the NSA whilst the mission to the UN in New York has also.
Also according to the news reports the Brussels NATO buildings are being used to intercept comms occuring at the EU HQ.
I'm glad it is all coming to a head. Western governments are spying on all of us without a warrant. We just know it is true now. The next time we say that we are at risk of creating a gun database, fewer accusations of baseless paranoia should be levied. Just because we are paranoid doesn't mean there isn't someone out to get us.
Well, how many of your firearms are foreign made, have a foreign parent company or subsidiary, have a foreign sounding name and same for the ammo.
If any of the above and you've talked to another firearm owner about this on the Internet then what are the odds of bombs, firearms, fertilizer and ammo being keywords?
So as far as an official gun database is concerned. The only difference would be an official publically known database.
USA... Spying...?
Who would have guessed... Just joking of course, who wouldn't have?
Seriously, every damn nation have spies. It's been publicly known since at least the last millennium that USA have spies and use them...
That USA actively spies on the EU and its own citizens isn't a shock either, that was first publicly discovered in 2001, and popular knowledge dates back from when the internet got popular (remember "Echelon"?)
So basically, this new report says things that has been publicly known for some 20 years or so?
I am not the biggest USA fan boy, but if you want to flame USA, at least do it for the actual MAJOR issues that dictate the current problems of the world.
It's only a crime if you get caught.
USA and its four partners, just, got, caught.
Nah.. The real problem is that people are sheep. Bear in mind that a sheep don't care what nation spy on who, sheep care about having food and possibly offspring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
So in a world where we gave the sheep the power, we will undoubtedly end up with a system where those in power get away with pretty much anything as long as it doesn't directly threaten a majority of society's basic needs (warmth, safety, food, procreation).
It's all good people, don't worry about it. This is the world we built, this is what umphft years of civilization has brought.
Spying wasn't considered as a U.S. thing for a long time simply because the U.S. was rarely associated with it on the media. And the U.S. never got caught at that time. The British 007 and the Cold War era depiction on the Russians dominated the scene......Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Uh... Ok... I have no idea where you are from, but where I am from US spying has been a very well known, not to mention documented fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
So the US is actually SPYING!? What next? Will they start torturing people? Assassinating world leaders? Meddling with democratic elections?
I am of course kidding again, the US is known to do that as well..
Let's face the facts, USA wouldn't really top your list of "friendly nations", now would it?
You're very young. The entire history is the 21st century to you. There was a time when people considered U.S. spies as underdog unintentional ones who resemble Chevy Chase and that guy who appeared as one of the Ghost Busters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Am I very young?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
You must either be very VERY old, you know, the kind of old where wrinkled old ladies with boobs to their knees are referred to as "the new generation"... Or just very stupid to make an assumption like that.
My degree in History also kind of put your ill founded assumption to shame.
I am well aware that the US wasn't seen as one of the big dogs on the spy scene until quite lately (mainly because the nation came quite lately)...
But with that said, anyone below the age of what? Hmmm... Let's just say below the age where people die... So pretty much anyone now living... Who had some sort of education... Well, they should not be shocked that the US does nasty things. Now should they?
Many of you criticize Snowden for not following the whistleblower path.
But everyone should be aware that that path is broken. We can look at what has happened to all of them in the last 6 year and see that most either wind up in jail on trumped up charges or are put through a living hell by the government.
The revelations over the weekend of spying on the EU Trade mission and the UN staff would seem to be the beginnings of a firestorm, at least in Europe.
German Representatives are comparing the NSA to the Stasi (the East Germans Secret Police). Not exactly a compliment.
Gathering intelligence on your enemies is a lot different than monitoring governments that are you allies.
With one you can liken it to a man having a PI follow an unfaithful wife and her supposed lover.
What the US is doing is having people monitor not only a faithful wife but also his children, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, and everyone else they come in contact with.
There is not much that can be said to justify such behavior and speaks to a very demented mind set.
Well that explains how you knew. Not everyone has a degree in history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
And you're basically agreeing to what I said.
Anyone who knows their 20th Century History knows that the US Government has a plan to kill everyone, conquer every country, overthrow every government. This is a Government that deliberately broke the back of British trade during the early Cold War to remove us a competitor as "Leader of the Free World".Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
Who really cares at this point?
As to Snowden: He's in Russia now seeking Asylum. I would not be surprised if, in 30 years, it transpires that he was a Russian patsy all along. So I'll say he's probably a traitor, and should probably be executed.
Rather like Bradly Manning, this man is distinguished by he own ego and sense of entitlement - I have been surprised by nothing I have heard from either, anyone who has was probably not paying attention or just flat-out naive.
Maybe I'm just a Machiavellian Bastard.
Not everyone in the world knows enough about British and U.S. history. What you said is unknown to most people. It's like how much you know about Portuguese and Brazilian history, especially during the early Cold War.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
It's part of the requirements for senior membership in a site called Total War.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
The "Scandal" is mostly manufactured for the Americans though - and even if the general populace don't know, the pundits and "experts" should.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
It's why I was never in politics - I'd like to keep some scraps of my soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Well it's a matter of which group we were talking about. I didn't say that nobody heard of the "scandal". There are a lot of conspiracy theories, some turn out to be true while others are false.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
In the end the argument of the nay-sayers comes down to, "I wasn't impressed, he should die."
Everyone who shrugs off knowledge of any sort as "irrelevant" or "known to all but the naive" blatantly gives up the game and dishonestly portrays the situation by ignoring what really shows the truth, the process. If Manning was a nobody who showed nothing special why does the government want to kill him, if Snowden is a nobody who showed nothing special why does the government want to kill him so badly?
Don't tell me that whistleblowers only deserve protection if they can get "the good stuff" subject to your standards.
The difference between a Whistleblower and a Traitor is determined by whether the leak benefits the home nation or it's enemies.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Manning leaked confidential information that harmed the US, to no good purpose other than his personal view of right and wrong, or the satisfaction of his own ego. He also chose to do so anonymously via a website run by a probably rapist, instead of publicly going to the papers. I'm not defending what the US has done to the Afghans, hiding massacres, bungles helicopter strikes, but I see no point in releasing the information, other than to harm the US and make a diplomatic resolution harder. Leaking the diplomatic cables was even worse, nothing revealed other than salacious gossip and embarrassment caused to the US that makes the work of diplomats harder.
If Snowden had stopped at the revelation that the NSA was bugging US citizens without warrants and snooping their emails he'd be a whistleblower - but he had to release more, the moment he started exposing spying against foreign powers he became a traitor.
Everybody bugs everyone - the Brits bug the Americans and vice versa - 50 years ago it might have been true that the Aussies didn't bug the Brits, but today I expect they do - we have enough divergent interests that it seems only prudent. Face it, all the screaming the Turkey, the EU, whatever, is manufactured outrage for the benefit of the general public.
As to punishment - I'd say Manning was stupid, I'd give him life, parole after 15 years, Snowden should have known better - life, parole at the discretion of the State Department after perhaps 30 years. The fact that Snowden has fled to Russia and has been allowed to apply for asylum tell you who has antics have benefited.
As you are from the UK, you may not know that each and every person working for or with the government and ever elected official must swear an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States.
It is not sworn to the government or to the people, just to uphold and defend the Constitution.
That is where the loyalty lies.
Did he show Constitutional violations? Yes!
He has also gone beyond that in showing that the US is violating the rights of others but the moral imperative to speak out was followed.
Is the US Government following the Constitution? It would seem not.
Which is is completely subjective and thus a useless definition to go by. You must know how silly it is to make the claim that as long as a whistleblower does not harm his country, he is ok. The whole point of a whistleblower is to discredit that which we previously held in esteem, whether it is due to exposed corruption, or illegal activity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
The Jungle might as well be a traitorous document, I wonder how well that socialist sympathizer managed to sabotage the US meat industry with his quite frankly unremarkable statements.
Very, very disingenuous PVC. As Fisherking pointed out, we as individuals swear allegiance to the Constitution not to the abstract notion of US government as an institution. Following our own personal view of right and wrong is precisely the most justifiable rationale that a man could claim if he is arguing that that which he does is in reverence to the Constitution as Snowden has said.Quote:
Manning leaked confidential information that harmed the US, to no good purpose other than his personal view of right and wrong, or the satisfaction of his own ego. He also chose to do so anonymously via a website run by a probably rapist, instead of publicly going to the papers. I'm not defending what the US has done to the Afghans, hiding massacres, bungles helicopter strikes, but I see no point in releasing the information, other than to harm the US and make a diplomatic resolution harder. Leaking the diplomatic cables was even worse, nothing revealed other than salacious gossip and embarrassment caused to the US that makes the work of diplomats harder.
Secondly, if you have nothing else to go on when it comes to criticizing Snowden other than to sneak in an attack on Assange and try to push a guilt by association, then it really shows the lack of substance behind the attacks on Snowden.
Thirdly, the papers have been a joke. You know this, I know this, everyone in the Western world is almost unanimous that traditional media has failed us. Utterly and completely. You ask whistleblowers to trust institutions that take orders from the people they are trying to expose? There is no difference between the media in Turkey and the media in the US. When the shit hits the fan, you turn into CNN and see twitter posts about pop stars, not anything resembling news.
And if the man had exposed the US attempts at infecting its own people, well string the man up on the gallows he is undermining our covert efforts to get a leg up on the enemy when it comes to biological warfare! It's all spin, and what a man considers to be protecting the human rights of all, that which the Constitution was inspired by, the government calls "aiding and abetting the enemy".Quote:
If Snowden had stopped at the revelation that the NSA was bugging US citizens without warrants and snooping their emails he'd be a whistleblower - but he had to release more, the moment he started exposing spying against foreign powers he became a traitor.
And the police shoot your dog because of its "aggressive character" when the SWAT team blows down your door by mistake. Very odd how a British national is the one who wants to wrap himself in the comfort of the US government half truths. Do you trust Obama to be the one spying on you more than Cameron?
Oh we all do it man, it's no biggie. I cheated on her, she cheated on me, her new bf cheated on her with me. Lets face it, decency and privacy are gone, so you are just looking silly by asking for them to return. The modern man accepts his place as a possible suspect at all given times. This is the enlightened way really when you think about it. I am not even going to talk about how shallow such a judgement of Russia=bad man is.Quote:
Everybody bugs everyone - the Brits bug the Americans and vice versa - 50 years ago it might have been true that the Aussies didn't bug the Brits, but today I expect they do - we have enough divergent interests that it seems only prudent. Face it, all the screaming the Turkey, the EU, whatever, is manufactured outrage for the benefit of the general public.
As to punishment - I'd say Manning was stupid, I'd give him life, parole after 15 years, Snowden should have known better - life, parole at the discretion of the State Department after perhaps 30 years. The fact that Snowden has fled to Russia and has been allowed to apply for asylum tell you who has antics have benefited.
You're equivocating - if Snowden had been exposing domestic police abuses, or medical experiments carried out on US citizens - again - that would be whistlblowing. The distinction is drawn when he steps outside the domestic sphere.
There's no equivocation here - at all - it is a fundamental principle. I'm not an expert on your Constitution, but I'm aware of no provision which protects foreign nationals on foreign soil.
It's rather telling no one will give him asylum
It's rather telling all we're seeing is a bunch of saber rattling
His newest statement is straight vomit and directly from Assanges mouth
As usual Phil is right
Which is scarier - this, or realising I read your posts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
:stare:
Seriously though - I applaud the exposure of the US Intelligence Services' pilfering of US Citizen emails, essentially the same as going to the Post Office and slitting envelops - I am ambivalent (from a US perspective) about the disclosure that this information was shared with GCHQ and vice-versa. As to the rest, leaking the fact that the US spies on other nations, including Allies, is traitorous and also not much of a revelation.
As a UK Citizen, I'm quite angry that GCHQ has been snooping my internet usage and emails, not especially worried personally, but it sets a poor precedent with regards to Civil Liberties in my country.