Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?

[Husar]

Your analogy is lacking. After he told you your tires were flat, he preceded to tell your boss you are a drunkard, and tell your wife about your mistress.

Well, the problem is that you drink too much and cheat on your wife. Those are problems you created and things you lied about.
It's really funny how everyone keeps blaming and badmouthing the chinese for hacking into servers in the US when the US are doing the same in China. What he did was pretty much dismantle your perceived moral superiority in certain things which now looks like hypocrisy.
On a whole I would still rate the US as more moral than China but it's like you're really trying hard to get there one whistleblower at a time.

[Montmorency]

It isn't easy to see why the state would get more upset over technical details leaked to rivals than generalities to global subjects?

[ICantSpellDawg]

You cannot be a traitor to the United States as long as you stand to uphold the inalienable rights protected or suggested under the Constitution. If the flag, the government, the people stand in the way of service to the idea of a free people, then they are the traitors. There is no allegiance to government necessary for being a patriot, only to the rights of individuals.

This isn't red team: bad, blue team: good anymore. Too many Americans live in this inbred 19th century concept of nationalism. The flag is meaningless without the individuals rights, the consent of the governed. The people condemning Snowden for exposing truth are the enemy. The people upholding and defending expanding secret courts, secret government to protect people from a bombing every once in a while are the enemy. Their threat and damage to a free people are greater than any realistic al-Qaeda threat.

[Montmorency]

"Traitor" is only a matter of numbers. If everyone but you is a "traitor" by your reckoning, then you are in fact the traitor.

[Husar]

It isn't easy to see why the state would get more upset over technical details leaked to rivals than generalities to global subjects?

The state, yes.

But the people, no.

If I want my country to be the good guys and advertise that all the time then I am upset about the state doing this in the first place.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The fundamental truth of any populist based government is, "that it is wholly owing to the constitution of the people, and not to the constitution of the government" that we find ourselves in the condition that we do.

The obesity crisis has mimicked our own unhealthy public discourse and a people cannot expect to be looked upon as victims for refusing to understand "garbage in, garbage out".

[HopAlongBunny]

Snowden is that guy who shows up at a dinner and mentions that thing no one wants to talk about.
O' Bama doesn't need to talk; after all he informed the House
The Reps don't need to talk about it; what people don't know can't be held against me... besides its a secret
The secret court; well that's just obvious...it's a secret :p

One clown ventures outside the "cone of silence" and see what happens! At least he should get an atta boy from the populace; but a lynching is preferable in some circles...

[Fisherking]

At the moment you could still say that Snowden is working for the government and their propaganda apparatus.

All of the focus is on him.

It is not on the revelation of the extent of government intrusion and spying. It is not on the abuses of government in targeting journalists by the DOJ or conservatives with the IRS and who can say what else.

We are not having a debate about government and individual rights, we are focused on this guy.

Revelations of this magnitude should bring down the government. Nixon was brought down by a bungled attempt to spy on the DNC.

Here we have an administration trampling on everyone’s rights and spying on us all, yet the press is not outraged.

It is supremely stupid to take a partisan view of this. It involves both parties and if one administration is allowed to abuse its power what will stop the next?

The media has no credibility any more, they are just party organs. How is this going to generate any outrage just because the next guy dose the same thing?

[ICantSpellDawg]

It is important to recognize that media are a bunch of party organs; Entrenched interest groups that have no interest in individual rights. Americans need to recognize the colossal forces against their interests that work tirelessly to strip them of their rights.

[HoreTore]

Nixon spied on other politicians.

This spying is about the serfs. Quite the difference.

[Strike For The South]

Does it make you feel cool when you call yourself a serf?

Things I have learned from this thread
-The US spies on China and that violates treaties! Of course no one spies on America
- Both the UK and Canada have as invasive or more invasive programs and yet America is to blame.
-The government is simultaneously suppressing Snowden and allowing him to speak to keep our eyes off the ball (lolololololol)


With any luck the Russians will interview him, find out he knows fuck all, and keep him in the airport. Make a reality TV show out of it. "I thought I was Jack Ryan and all I got was this seat in the Moscow airport" I'd watch that.

I would love to visit these fairy tale worlds some of you live in, Where power politics don't exist and nothing happens when the door closes.

[Papewaio]

Read up about the five eyes.

When someone talks about US spying that includes Canada, UK, NZ and Australia. There are shared facilities in each of these countries and shared protocols. The Australian government are already in damage control over what Snowden will reveal about its spy network. How does he know it? Because the large amount of information shared by the five nations means they are all complicit in the same programs being key contributors and users of each others information.

[Strike For The South]

Morality?

The government is exploiting the slow nature of the law. No one ever said anything you did would be protected when you plugged in. You may have assumed that, but you know what they say about assumptions. Expecting your government to "behave" is naive. Expecting your government to behave while you clamor for more protection is stupid. Expecting power politics to have anything to do with sustainability means you haven't been paying attention.

Didn't Xaihou have a Washington quote in his sig once? Something along the lines of treating the gov't like a carefully stoked fire. Crap in crap out fellas, Some of you saying the traitor lines fell right in lockstep a few years ago. Not suprsing but lamentable none the less

[Montmorency]

Strike, I'll be frank: your posts have nothing to do with what anyone else has been discussing. At least, I can't see their relevance to the posts of others.

It's as though you're just talking to yourself; it's kind of disturbing.

Doesn't it make more sense to just pace around your room, flailing your arms and baying at the ceiling? Or if it's the public nature of the forum that attracts you, then just take your act to the nearest town square.

I see it all the time. There's no shame in it. To see it on a website, on the other hand, is just confusing.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Morality?

The government is exploiting the slow nature of the law. No one ever said anything you did would be protected when you plugged in. You may have assumed that, but you know what they say about assumptions. Expecting your government to "behave" is naive. Expecting your government to behave while you clamor for more protection is stupid. Expecting power politics to have anything to do with sustainability means you haven't been paying attention.

Didn't Xaihou have a Washington quote in his sig once? Something along the lines of treating the gov't like a carefully stoked fire. Crap in crap out fellas, Some of you saying the traitor lines fell right in lockstep a few years ago. Not suprsing but lamentable none the less

I fell in lock step years ago. I've be been burned since, personally, professionally, and politically. The well oiled, bureaucratic machine is an awesome thing to behold when you feel like you are in control, but when it is riding rough-shot through your front door you have a different perspective. The type of candidate that I will support in the future is a more hands off, permissive candidate. The era of 9/11 is over, it has to be.

This is the type of issue that re-defines political perspectives for a generation. One that libertarians and progressives can come together on that exposes the statists (which I used to be). I was 18 when I signed up for these boards and terrorists had just flown planes into the twin towers and the Pentagon, killing 3000 and injuring 6000. Since then, we've figured out that we should lock cockpits up tight because they are flying missiles. The nuclear spying may or not be warranted, but an invasive security state to prevent a bus or two from blowing up up every few years is not worth it, even if i'm on it. Drink bottled water and get the government off of our backs. This State is a greater threat to us than the terrorists.

[Strike For The South]

Strike, I'll be frank: your posts have nothing to do with what anyone else has been discussing. At least, I can't see their relevance to the posts of others.

It's as though you're just talking to yourself; it's kind of disturbing.

Doesn't it make more sense to just pace around your room, flailing your arms and baying at the ceiling? Or if it's the public nature of the forum that attracts you, then just take your act to the nearest town square.

I see it all the time. There's no shame in it. To see it on a website, on the other hand, is just confusing.

False.

Tuff Stuff and cube quoted

UMAD

Is this the part where I claim I have aspergers and that I'm really "gifted" but my teachers don't "understand" me?

[Montmorency]

Drink bottled water

???

[ICantSpellDawg]

Don't worry so hard about terrorist attacks on water supply.

[Montmorency]

Don't worry so hard about terrorist attacks on water supply.

We're doing a better job with fracking than the terrorists ever could. The best/worst a terrorist would ever manage is to take a crap in a reservoir.

Aside from the ecological, macroeconomic, and budgetary pitfalls of relying on bottled water - plus the effect of plastic on your own health - over municipally-purified water:

*Quite a lot of bottled water is merely bottled tap water, which means the source is exactly the same

*Even if the source is some spring somewhere, consider that the vast aquifers, reservoirs, and groundwater beds of the US of A are magnitudes of order vaster and more dispersed than the sources for 'higher-end' bottled water
***Meaning that they are less vulnerable to everything and anything that a terrorist could bring to bear

*The supply chains of bottled water corporations are more vulnerable to sustained terrorist assault than those of the weightiest state in the world
***The government keeps many billions of gallons of clean water on stock in case of emergencies

Bottom line: A terrorist starting forest fires is literally the worst thing that could happen to this country by terrorism, short of widespread deployment of NBC.

[ICantSpellDawg]

*Quite a lot of bottled water is merely bottled tap water, which means the source is exactly the same

Good points, all - except for this one. I was thinking about bottled water of cooled brita as a time delay. If the source is corrupted, tap drinkers can find out first.

The rest of them are good. I fully don't understand what the point of invasive security is at this point.

[Xiahou]

Didn't Xaihou have a Washington quote in his sig once? Something along the lines of treating the gov't like a carefully stoked fire. Crap in crap out fellas, Some of you saying the traitor lines fell right in lockstep a few years ago. Not suprsing but lamentable none the less

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

If you want a less invasive government, you want less government.

[Fisherking]

Bull. You can't be that naive. If you take away the government, you get corporate exploitation. Why do you think we don't look like China, or Mexico, or any other country that has unfettered corporatism? Because we have a government that is strong enough to fight that kind of crap. If the government is broken, or percieved as useless, or weakened, it is the corporations who benefit most. What you want is a government you can trust, and that requires setting a moral standard. Which is why I assume nobody ever considers that option?

The revolutionary concept of American Government was that government should be the servant of the people, not their master. It is also the foundation of the modern democratic state.

Most, if not all, of our western democracies seem to have forgotten that fact.

Modern legislative bodies make laws favoring the corporation over the people. The peoples rights are disregarded in the face of a perceived security threat. The government thinks it is the caretaker of us and we are no more than children, and of course, children need no rights as the government parent cares for them.

The people provide the money to operate the government but more important is that the corporations provide the money to elect the politicians and positions on their boards once they leave office or positions as lobbyists to the institutions they have retired from.

The governments rule the people and the corporations rule the governments.

Of course some industries lose out to the interests of others. Right now coal is losing out to oil with the closing of coal fired power plats. But government is pretending to save you from all that pollution, that was actually removed in the 1970s with the scrubbers. Do you really think coal emits more CO2 than oil? It is just another bait and switch.

The difference is that in China the government is the corporation and in Mexico it is a little more overt, mostly because your domestic press complains about what is happening elsewhere but it doesn’t serve them to point out how it is all working at home.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Fire, not coffee, ladies and gentlemen. It's the only way.

[Strike For The South]

But coal is by far the dirtiest fuel....there's science and everything

[Strike For The South]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...thout-warrants

The old thread, who says I just mutter to myslef?

Edit: Pindar was a grown man playing with children

[a completely inoffensive name]

GOd, I would be laughed out of this forum if it was 2005.

[Hooahguy]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...thout-warrants

The old thread, who says I just mutter to myslef?

Edit: Pindar was a grown man playing with children

Oh man, that was when Tribesman was still around. The memories.

[ICantSpellDawg]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...thout-warrants

The old thread, who says I just mutter to myslef?

Edit: Pindar was a grown man playing with children

Pindar was a god among men on these boards. Adrian and Red Harvest were no sloutches. We have fallen dramatically since then. I would have probably agreed with Pindar, partly because of his well formulated points, partly because my awe-related adoration of him.

We are all a bunch of frivolous noobs now. We've sunken to the level of tribesmen - intelligent enough people who were too unserious to formulate professional arguments and instead demean one another with clever quips, like I am doing now with this passive-aggressive post.

Where did all of the Constitutional attorneys go? TinCow is an attorney, right? I used to learn so much here. I'm going to go to law school, just so I can post briefs and case law on the org. Does anyone know where I can do this as cheaply as possible, because I don't plan to ever get a job in that field, due to my obvious intellectual, physical, and personality disabilities.

Its time to go to work as a claims adjuster... Blegh.

[Papewaio]

The thread SFTS quotes is about warrant less spying on foreigners.

So it looks like it is now warrant less spying on locals if they might be talking with foreigners... and everyone else just in case.

But since these are all obscure processes that have a secret court. Exactly what is and isn't looked at is speculative. Its also the very definition of not accountable or transparent.

[ICantSpellDawg]

How can people possibly consent to a government whose laws, courts, and interpretations of those things are secret. The idea that consent of governed is a factor in government power has become an international farce. How can I have an allegiance to this government as it doesn't even pretend to inform or represent me.