Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
I think Ive found the disconnect.
That concept is no longer supported by the American armed forces.
While soldiers are of course expected to follow orders, they are also expected to think for themselves.
Printable View
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
I think Ive found the disconnect.
That concept is no longer supported by the American armed forces.
While soldiers are of course expected to follow orders, they are also expected to think for themselves.
Tribesy, tribesy, tribesy. You just haven't found the speech yet, have you?Quote:
You are not very good at it are you Rabbit .
It was a very silly move to put in a specific date for the speech you imagined or did you think statements and speeches would be hard to find .
Come back after looking a bit harder.
So, what should the odds on being obtuse vs not fully comprehending english be?Quote:
What part did you miss.......
what he said was the US army is full of idiots.
.....so which part of the speech contained those words to paraphrase ?
CR
I just thought it was ironic. But even then, I was wrong- a nice picture to show how much Bush loves the military can't have crossed his mind for a second, it was purely accidental. He also didn't know that the thanksgiving turkey was made out of plastic ~:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Are you saying that the Vietnam was more "civil" then WWII? (bar the Russian front, wich was a horrorible nightmare)Quote:
That is a controversial stance that does not appear to have any supporting data. As I recall, studies that have gone in for such comparisons found less incidence than in say WWII.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
The comment concerns the U.S. Military and incidence of war crimes or similar atrocities based on the 71 testimony of Kerry before Congress. Kerry referenced Genghis Khan, I mentioned WWII as a easier frame of reference.
There is nothing contraversial about that stance at all , the hearings themselves provide supporting data , but the biggest supporting data would have been the Militaries own inquiries into practices used and events in Vietnam and neighbouring countries , but unfortunately the government re-classified them shortly after they were released under FOI .Apparently because the 9000pages of data contain names they cannot be released .Quote:
That is a controversial stance that does not appear to have any supporting data.
Still playing silly buggers eh rabbit .Quote:
Tribesy, tribesy, tribesy. You just haven't found the speech yet, have you?
Tell you what , you find any speech at all that Kerry made that friday and I will open a full page topic saying you ain't talking bullshit :yes:
hey , it don't even have to say the army is full of stupid people , any public comment from that day will do .
Until then .......
Do you do this to every thread?
While I don't agree with all of the following, I found it interesting as it jibed well with my earlier "3 options" theme:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15519404/
Yep , there are several similar ones from various media outlets in the US and elsewhere .Quote:
While I don't agree with all of the following, I found it interesting as it jibed well with my earlier "3 options" theme:
This whole thing is ridiculous. Why must my civil life be determined by moronic public intrigue and surreal nightmares like this?:wall:
Why? Democracy. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
Just look at this thread. I'm sure the average interest in politics and enlightenment level of the Backroom frequenters is relatively higher than most of the population, and yet the sentiment, "Kerry insulted our troops!" is still very prevalent.
Quite frankly, some of the people just scream how sick they are of the government on one side and then go out to vote for them again on the other, with excuses such as "The lesser evil" or "Loyalty to my Party." Or better yet, "Kerry insulted our troops."
Thanks for the answers guys.
So the real issue with Kerry then is that he fails to make a stand and appears to change his opinions on important topics depending on how the political winds are blowing?
However I would have thought alligning himself with the peace movement after he served two tours of duty in Veitnam would demonstrate that he does (or at least did) stick up for what he believes in. Surely that shows he can take a stand?
I guess for his "flip-flopping" on Iraq he could claim he was voting on the same crappy intelligence that Bush had rather than the pitiful excuse for war which anyone with a memory and some common sense could tell was a pack of lies (WMDs and threat to world) (I've got to stop throwing in little digs like this I know but I can't help it! Just irresistable to me.). Now that the truth has come out (and it's not political suicide to do so) he has changed his mind on the issue. I find that more admirable than senselessly sticking to your guns when your what you're trying to do is not working.
Just to let you know, I don't support Kerry. I think the guy's a bit of a smartarse to be frank. It's just that a lot of the criticism against him doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.
Unrelated to this Kerry thing, if you reverse the order of the countries in this sentance (i.e exchange Russia, China and France with America) it would go a long way to explaining why so many people in France, Russia and China dispise the US.Quote:
Americans may not agree with the war, but they certainly don't agree with the idea that France, Russia and China should have the right to dictate American policy to us.
ROFL! You must be the only person in the world who believes Bush is wearing that costume for utilitarian purposes!Quote:
Because, of course, he should have worn a dress suit in the plane instead of a flight suit.
BTW - Anyone else here think they put a sock in his undies "We are Spinal Tap" style?
How so? The last time we attempted to push the French on their policies was in the Suez, when our so-called alliance ended.Quote:
Originally Posted by IRONxMortlock
The only time we've ever dared to tell the Chinese what to do was when we 'advised' them that entering Taiwan, South Korea or Japan would be a mistake. As the third beneficiary of that protectorate, I would think a Japanese national would appreciate that we limit China's aggressive posturing (and we don't actually limit it all that much). China is a sovereign state, we respect that and do not interfere with their ability to protect themselves. But perhaps you are right and we should allow them to look for a little breathing room and withdraw our forces from the Pacific rim. Have fun.
As for Russia, I would really have to search the memory banks for the last time we've attempted to dictate policy to them. Well, we did let them know that we didn't appreciate their policy towards us in Cuba in 1962. Yes, what a bunch of warmongers we were, not wanting nuclear warheads parked 30 miles off our coast.
Yet all of three of these nations, and others, feel free to dictate terms to the United States on what we can and cannot do to defend ourselves. Your gratitude is underwhelming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossLOPER
And What Happens to be your Point?:whip:
I picked B.
Indeed he did state the US army is full of lazy idiots. Yes I did paraphrase the joke, that was refered to earlier in the paragraph you qouted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Ok english teaching time. If you are not smart, you are unintelligent also known as being an idiot. If you don't work hard, you are called lazy. He is stating wether he meant to or not (but since the speech was written out infront of him...) that the US armed forces are neither smart, nor do the work hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kerry
Yes he said he didn't mean it, and later the portion of the speech was shown. But when he spoke he didn't mention bush, he didn't mention the presidency he only mentioned the US armed forces.
Soldiers don't get stuck in Iraq, political leadership does ... I found the joke quite obvious, even before I learned of this whole mess.
Typical American, instead of interpreting everything the most polite way, you always go for the worst possible interpretation.
Oh, and I don't see in that snippet any mention of the US armed forces.
:wall: :wall: :wall: No he didn'tQuote:
Indeed he did state the US army is full of lazy idiots. Yes I did paraphrase the joke, that was refered to earlier in the paragraph you qouted.
Is English not your first language then ?Quote:
Ok english teaching time. If you are not smart, you are unintelligent also known as being an idiot. If you don't work hard, you are called lazy. He is stating wether he meant to or not (but since the speech was written out infront of him...) that the US armed forces are neither smart, nor do the work hard.
Yes he said he didn't mean it, and later the portion of the speech was shown. But when he spoke he didn't mention bush, he didn't mention the presidency he only mentioned the US armed forces.
Tex try any language you like , any translation whatsoever , and show that the speech delivered does not mention the presidency or does mention the US armed forces .
Since your post leaves only two possible options
ayou havn't read or heard the speech
byou , like the president mentioned in the speech , have moved from the State of Texas and are in the state of denial .
Oh , add option c ...both of the above .~:doh:
Well thats where it gets tricky Keba and hence the confusion .Quote:
Oh, and I don't see in that snippet any mention of the US armed forces.
If you get the whole speech instead of just the snippet , it is really amazing , as it doesn't contain any mention of it either .:laugh4:
You can't be properly outraged if you don't take the extreme view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keba
He certainly did. There was no mention of Bush getting us stuck there. He was speaking to students. This is a case of him saying what he really thinks instead of saying the bad joke that was written for him. Hes an elitist pure and simple. He probably thinks the only smart person ever to enter the military was him. He should have just apologised right from the start.Quote:
No he didn't
So, you know what he was thinking how? Telepathy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Look, I'm not saying the guy's not an idiot for screwing up a joke like that, but this whole insulting the troops thing is even more foolish than Kerry is, and you have to try really hard to achieve that.
You dont know what he was thinking either...
His history on the military would lend itself to Gawain of Orkeney's point of view though.
Okay, I've tried to find things that Kerry's said about the military before, and all that I can find is general descriptions of his testimonies of widespread war-crimes comitted by American Soldiers and his general anti-war stance after coming back from Vietnam...
Another one residing in the great State of Denial .Quote:
He certainly did. There was no mention of Bush getting us stuck there. He was speaking to students. This is a case of him saying what he really thinks instead of saying the bad joke that was written for him. Hes an elitist pure and simple. He probably thinks the only smart person ever to enter the military was him. He should have just apologised right from the start.
So Gawain , undoubtably you can find a reference from the speech actually refering to the military being the carreer choice for idiots and also show an absence of the the reference which preceeded the 10 second snippet where he is talking about Bush being the idiot .
Until then you havn't got a leg to stand on .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Come on Don, what he was speaking about is the way the US pretend to always know what is good for everyone and what is not. How the US don't give a crap about the UN, how the US quite often regard their ally as sh*t whenever the given allies don't agree with US' policies.
Of course, France does the same thing, just as China and Russia, but France doesn't have neither the same political nor military power as the US
And you can find one to Bush? Just read what he said.Quote:
So Gawain , undoubtably you can find a reference from the speech actually refering to the military being the carreer choice for idiots
Until then you havn't got a leg to stand on
No Im going by his track record.Quote:
So, you know what he was thinking how? Telepathy?
How about the comment on US troops terrorizing Iraqi women and children in the middle of the night?Quote:
Okay, I've tried to find things that Kerry's said about the military before, and all that I can find is general descriptions of his testimonies of widespread war-crimes comitted by American Soldiers and his general anti-war stance after coming back from Vietnam...
Personal favorite: "To maintain control of Congress, Republicans must exhume and re-animate the bloated political corpse of John Kerry, so that they can kill him again."
Duh. He did it himself. He opened his dumb mouth. He and Gore are the gifts that just keep on giving. To think thatv these two were the last two democratic candidates for president is really scary. Notice that the democrats have hidden away Pelosi and and Dean so that they wont cause further trouble until after the election.Quote:
"To maintain control of Congress, Republicans must exhume and re-animate the bloated political corpse of John Kerry, so that they can kill him again."
“Yes, what a bunch of warmongers we were, not wanting nuclear warheads parked 30 miles off our coast.” And the fact you had nuclear war head at 5 km from their borders never occurred to you? (Turkey)
“Yet all of three of these nations, and others, feel free to dictate terms to the United States on what we can and cannot do to defend ourselves. Your gratitude is underwhelming.” Why China and Russia should be grateful, for what exactly?
France should be grateful and is, however, it doesn’t give the right to US to ask France to follow blindly in an adventure every body knew it was smelling fish: because actually it was more the US who “feel free to dictate terms” than the others. Who told “our intelligence said”, “we know that”, “link with Al-Quaida”, “believe us” and all the other deliberate lies? I don’t believe the CIA is just an incompetent bunch of people, nor the MI5, or 6.
So France should have follow, sending her soldiers to die because Bush and Blair decide to lie? You ask a lot on the name of gratefulness, are you?
Now about Kerry, I still don’t understand how the Americans can see a guy who never fought as a war hero and the guy who actually earn a Medal of Honour as almost a traitor…
And if you want statistics, just go on ratio of Orange Agent, Napalm and tons of Iron flooded on Vietnam and you will understand why perhaps some comparisons were done…
How would that have comforted any American living then? And the American public didn't know about the missiles in Turkey at that point)Quote:
“Yes, what a bunch of warmongers we were, not wanting nuclear warheads parked 30 miles off our coast.” And the fact you had nuclear war head at 5 km from their borders never occurred to you? (Turkey)
Kruschev's backing off at the end of the missile crises was thus interpreted as a factual US victory, the truth was that as an exchange the missiles in Turkey were dismantled and/or moved.
Kenedy did a good job handling the crisis. Mcnamera wanted to bomb Cuba back to the stone age till Kenedy dissuaded him. A I remember from a documentary that years later a Russian general told Mcnamera that the USSR had operating missiles at that point and would have retaliated. According to the documentary Mcnameras face went entirely pale :beam:
Only some - there was still a nuclear weapons storage site maintained in Turkey until all battlefield nuclear weapons were removed from the inventory after the fall of the Soviet Union. In fact in the 1970's the Turks wanted access to the weapons and a potential crisis developed between the United States and Turkey over the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
The Cuban Missle Crisis and the Speech at the Berlin Wall are the two main history lessons of the Kennedy AdminstrationQuote:
Kenedy did a good job handling the crisis. Mcnamera wanted to bomb Cuba back to the stone age till Kenedy dissuaded him. A I remember from a documentary that years later a Russian general told Mcnamera that the USSR had operating missiles at that point and would have retaliated. According to the documentary Mcnameras face went entirely pale :beam:
Cuba and Florida are roughly 90 miles apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
I sincerely doubt we'd have stationed missile less than 5 klicks from the Soviet border -- too close and too tempting for a commando raid/surprise attack.
Yes, we did have missiles in Turkey at the time of the Cuban Crisis. Yes they were withdrawn shortly afterwards. Yes some have made the argument that this was a "de facto" arrangement between the governments, though no concrete proof has surfaced. It is known that the missiles did annoy the Soviets.
“I sincerely doubt we'd have stationed missile less than 5 klicks from the Soviet border”: It was a figure of speech. I could have spoke about USSR feeling to be surrounded by potential enemies. In their point of view, to put nuclear warheads in Cuba was jut the answer of the Sheppard to the Wolf.
Kerry "botches" another joke. :laugh4:
I agree. There were definitely a good few in the politburo who thought that arming Cuba would be no more than a "quid pro quo" to counter the Jupiters we already had deployed in Turkey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
The scary part was how close we came to a nuke war in that incident. Soviet sources and interviews after the breakup in 89-91 confirmed that the local Soviet commander had a couple of tac nukes, knew himself to be outclassed, and would have used them on the US invasion fleet if we had tried the other approach, which was an airstrike followed by a landing.
While the USA would have won the resulting strategic exchange -- our missile were more reliable than theirs as well as equal in numbers at that point, and our bomber fleet would have penetrated reasonably well -- the casualties in such a war would have been ghastly.
I didn’t realize there was a polite way to interpret it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keba
There is ... first, you think of the context. It is election time, and the campaign is mostly about low blows, which means insulting other politicians is common. Then you think of what Kerry was talking about, and it wasn't the military.Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdachi
Thus, the sole conclusion possible is that he was talking about the President of the US ... after all, he did get stuck in Iraq, something even his dad didn't manage to do. After all, Bush was expousing the whole 'Stay the course' thing, thus, he was the one stuck there.
How any sane person could draw the conclusion that Kerry was talking about the soldiers is totally beyond me.
Neither insulting the troops nor insulting the president is “polite” IMO. Pot shot taken in front of students is in poor taste to me, but I guess constructive criticism doesn’t get as many minutes on CNN. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Keba
I never said I agreed with it, liked it, or would vote for the schmuck if I were an American. Hell, even I think the guy's useless and worse than Bush.
However, this thing annoys me enough to stand up for the guy.
EDIT: Whoops, tiny mistake.
English Lesson Part Two:Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTex
Today's new word:
con·text (khttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...GIF/obreve.gifnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g.../GIF/prime.gifthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...GIF/ebreve.gifksthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...GIF/lprime.gif) Pronunciation Key http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif
n.
Pay particular attention to 1, as it is very important to this discussion. Rather than type it all out myself, I'm just going to quote from the article I posted previously, as it explains it very clearly. So clearly in fact, that only those who really don't want to understand it won't be able to after reading it.
- The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
- The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.
There's that pesky "context" word again...Quote:
Sen. Kerry, as you well know, spoke at a college in Southern California. With bitter humor he told the students that he had been in Texas the day before, that President Bush used to live in that state, but that now he lives in the state of denial.
He said the trip had reminded him about the value of education — that “if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”
The senator, in essence, called Mr. Bush stupid.
The context was unmistakable: Texas; the state of denial; stuck in Iraq. No interpretation required.
As shown above, he did mention Bush. But you and the rest of the Republican party chose not to include that in your quoting of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTex
Yuck. This thread is leaving a bad taste in my mouth, having to defend a guy who I think actually is an idiot, but for different reasons than those stated in the thread.
(And also responding to Brenus)Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
The gratitude comment is a fragment that I missed when I removed a portion of the post that I believe our ROK & Japanese orgahs might have found offensive. I did not mean to leave it in, and it certainly did not refer to France, China or Russia. Sorry for the confusion.
Kerry's joke was stupid no matter how he said it. Bush got an education, so it's a really moronic joke. Studying doesn't make you smart, thinking does.
(Sorry if that's been pointed out, a little late to this thread)
The ironic part is that even if we take the joke as it was wriiten for him the fact remains that Bush has a better academic record than Kerry. So where does this leave Kerry?Quote:
Kerry's joke was stupid no matter how he said it. Bush got an education, so it's a really moronic joke. Studying doesn't make you smart, thinking does
JealousQuote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
“So where does this leave Kerry?”: Real war hero who fought for his country even knowing the battle was lost? Kind of my country was wrong but I did my duty… I think it is one your Green Beret song which says: You have to believe what you are saying, and to say only if you do… Translation of a translation, so of course it probably better in the original, but it is how I learned this song when I was in the Army… Bush said it is the duty to UAS to go to war, and never did, Kerry said this war is wrong but I had to go… Sorry guy, I still prefer the second…
Bull. He was one of the main reasons we lost. Hero my ass.Quote:
Real war hero who fought for his country even knowing the battle was lost
“Bull. He was one of the main reasons we lost. Hero my ass”: Ho, the US gives the Medal of Honour to every body… Didn’t know that… US lost because the Vietcong and NVA showed they won’t give up. You lost because people like W. Bush didn’t show up to go and to fight for their country…:beam:
Hope that's ironic. The US decorated him for whatever he did in that war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
As for his 'joke', I don't see what's wrong with it. We could see it here in Belgium on tv, and my first reaction was that he was talking of Bush. A politician who tries to insult his opponent. No harm in that. Hell even our Karel insults our neighbours more.
Gawain made the comment because:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Kerry's spokepersonship during Senate hearings, his participation in the Winter Soldiers anti-war campaign, and the general tenor of his campaign for the House of Representatives in 1972 war ardently anti-war and pretty well anti-military. He played on and played up the anti-war sentiment in the USA at the time. Since it is that sentiment that led to "Vietnamization" and our withdrawal (and subsequent defeat), and not direct defeat upon the field of battle, Gawain is attributing our loss to Kerry's efforts. This may overstate Kerry's role a bit, but I agree with the sentiment. Read up on the conflict and you will find that we won the war by breaking the Tet offensive of 1968 -- only to lose it because Americans were depressed and frustrated that it was taking too long, which gave the NV courage to continue.
Kerry did not receive the Medal of Honor. He was decorated for bravery (silver and bronze stars if I recall) and for being wounded on 3 occasions during his service in Vietnam.
George Bush served in the air national guard. Guard units were largely withheld from combat service as a political decision. Why Bush chose service in the guard over service in the infantry only he can know.
“Kerry did not receive the Medal of Honor. He was decorated for bravery (silver and bronze stars if I recall) and for being wounded on 3 occasions during his service in Vietnam.” Ok, sorry, he was JUST wounded three times when W Bush enjoyed life in Texas. Decorated for bravery when the other one would have been decorated for brewery (sorry, couldn’t resist), but he is the coward…
I still don’t understand…
“Read up on the conflict and you will find that we won the war by breaking the Tet offensive of 1968 -- only to lose it because Americans were depressed and frustrated that it was taking too long, which gave the NV courage to continue.”: I studied the Vietnam wars. The first one, because my father went there (1948-1951) and the US’ one because I grew-up with the Vietnam on the news every night (and the comments of my father…). Têt broke the Viet-Cong. In fact, nobody can be sure that it wasn’t the political target for the North. The US loose for the same reasons the French did: too far, too long, too costly. France had the advantage that only volunteers and professionals were sent there, but the war was unpopular.
The US sent GI’s and the bodies count was on. The US population probably didn’t care too much about the Vietnamese but their sons were dying and that was important. The Communist leaders, Ho Chi Minh, Giap and Lê Duc To understood than what ever the cost in their ranks, they had to kill Americans to create a disillusion within the USA.
Kerry served honorably in combat and, at least in the opinion of some of his peers/superiors, bravely as well. Regrettably, many of my fellow travelers among conservatives have said as much, or gone so far as to label Kerry a traitor. I have not, and I am skeptical of those who do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
His policy initiatives, political stance, and communication style are more than enough for me to deride.
Myself being one of them , I despise the man.Quote:
Regrettably, many of my fellow travelers among conservatives have said as much, or gone so far as to label Kerry a traitor.
None of which were serious and some of dubious orign, Not only that but he took the escape clause of 3 wounds and you can go home after only serving there for four months. He deserted his men. Then went home and dispariged them with lies. It was the peace movement and not the North Vietnamese that lost us that war. Thats the only way we can loose in Iraq as well.Quote:
Ok, sorry, he was JUST wounded three times
Who necro'd this thread? It's like 2 years old.
In other words:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
I think Gawain might know a little bit more about it than that lady.
“It was the peace movement and not the North Vietnamese that lost us that war.” Ah… It was NOT the total incapacity of the US to win. Well, if as rightly stated the Têt did kill of the Viet-Cong how is it possible that the US couldn’t finish-off the job? If the peace movement took place, it was BEAUSE this incapacity to win. That kind of remark, and no disrespect to the veterans, reminds me what the Germans were saying after WW1.
“None of which were serious and some of dubious orign”: Ooops, the Vietcong missed him on purpose… The NVA recognise him and just INTENTIONALLY inflicted only light injuries. 3 times. Some are dubious means more than one. So, not only the NVA just fake to shoot at him (thing that W Bush was not even exposed at…) but the 2 others injuries were to: a) his own soldiers, b)his own, c) accident, you know, jump from the boat, twist an ankle etc…
“He took the escape door”: Err, if you are injured 3 times, yes, you can do that. You can think your luck was enough challenged and perhaps it is time to go home… Of course, that s the US army can’t recognise when 2 on 3 injuries are fake or dubious, that’s it…
“I despise the man.” Obviously, and in doing it you forget to mention he lied to his mother when young, shoplifted and smoked drugs… It is a think to despise a man for his political point of view, his past behaviour or whatever, but to deny a guy of his past is obviously kind of Stalinist Procedure.
By the way, I don't like him, but with no reason. It is just like that...:beam:
Because the american people have lost the ability to fight a real war. Just look at Iraq. Bin Laden is correct. America is a paper tiger. Not because its military is weak but because its people no longer have any balls.Quote:
if as rightly stated the Têt did kill of the Viet-Cong how is it possible that the US couldn’t finish-off the job?
Well they do honor him in their war museum.Quote:
Ooops, the Vietcong missed him on purpose…
Maybe you should do a little research into the matter before making such statements. His wounds were superficial at best and one self inflicted.Quote:
Some are dubious means more than one. So, not only the NVA just fake to shoot at him (thing that W Bush was not even exposed at…) but the 2 others injuries were to: a) his own soldiers, b)his own, c) accident, you know, jump from the boat, twist an ankle etc…
As A Marine who served in Nam I have plenty of reasons to dispise him.Quote:
Obviously, and in doing it you forget to mention he lied to his mother when young, shoplifted and smoked drugs… It is a think to despise a man for his political point of view, his past behaviour or whatever, but to deny a guy of his past is obviously kind of Stalinist Procedure.
By the way, I don't like him, but with no reason. It is just like that...
I assumed as a veteran marine you disliked everyone who isn't a vet or a marine. Including vets who aren't marines and marines who aren't vets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
As for officers who were incompetent I think we all can dispise them regardless of our backgrounds.
Why would you possibly assume such a thing?Quote:
I assumed as a veteran marine you disliked everyone who isn't a vet or a marine.
So you know the type I mean then. From what Ive read about Kerry he seems a typical case. By the way people its very easy for officers to get medals.Quote:
As for officers who were incompetent I think we all can dispise them regardless of our backgrounds.
Just me being cheeky :laugh4: :clown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
I don't think this is the case at all. I've always admired Americans for their passion and I think they have plenty of balls to fight a war. The problem is the wars they've been involved in.Quote:
Because the american people have lost the ability to fight a real war. Just look at Iraq. Bin Laden is correct. America is a paper tiger. Not because its military is weak but because its people no longer have any balls.
The soldiers yes but the people no, Were too civilised now. WW2 pretty much castrated Europe and Nam was the end of the road for us. The only western nation that still knew how to fight was Israel and it seems even they have lost it now. Were doomed by our own sense of ethics. Thats why civilizations rise and fall. Were too complacent and dont see anything really worth dying for.Quote:
I've always admired Americans for their passion and I think they have plenty of balls to fight a war
Correction: We don't think Iraq is worth dying for.
When everyone is facing Mecca maybe reality will finally sink in.Quote:
Correction: We don't think Iraq is worth dying for
Like when the IRA was running rampant we all thought the world would become catholics. :laugh4:
So Gawain , clearly you either havn't seen the address or you don't know who your president is .Quote:
And you can find one to Bush? Just read what he said.
Until then you havn't got a leg to stand on
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: yes the invasion of Iraq is a bold move to stop the world converting to Islam :dizzy2:Quote:
When everyone is facing Mecca maybe reality will finally sink in.
Utter nonsense, they lost in Vietnam because they couldn't win .Quote:
He deserted his men. Then went home and dispariged them with lies. It was the peace movement and not the North Vietnamese that lost us that war. Thats the only way we can loose in Iraq as well.
They had all the information telling them they were highly unlikely to get anything like a win before they went in over a pile of lies , but ignored it just like they have in Iraq .
So Gawain , what lies did Kerry say about you and your service in Nam ?
How many villages did you raze , what livestock did you shoot , how many prisoners did you abuse , did you kill any civilians , did you destroy their food stores ?
If the answer is none then why do you think he was talking about you and your work with cameras ?
If the answer is none then why are you defending those people who did do those things ?
Do I need to remind you that you have written on this forum about torture and abuse practiced on prisoners in Nam , so you cannot deny that it happened , in fact you thought it was OK to do it , though your info was only second hand and you yourself never threw any prisoners out of helicopters as an aid to obtaining information .
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Well they do honor him in their war museum.
Soooooo Gawain could you enlighten me as to what the occasion was when Kerrys picture displayed in the museum was taken ?
Could you name any of the other american politicians (and their parties) or the serving and ex military officers who accompanied him on that visit and also had their picture up ?
Do you actually know what the delegation that is featured in the musem was there for , or are you just getting your info from the thouroughly discredited bunch of liars led by O'neil ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
But you respect a man that practically fled military service all together? ~:confused:
I mean...for whatever flaws that Kerry has....he sure as hell did a lot more for his country back then then bush did.....if he chose to come back and talk against the war.....hell...who else has more right to do so then someone who was there?
The IRA was never about taking over the world or converting people to Catholisim.Quote:
Like when the IRA was running rampant we all thought the world would become catholics
We couldnt win because we werent willing to fight a total war. Thats why I protested the war and left the Marines. If you want us to go fight and die over there dont handicap us.Quote:
Utter nonsense, they lost in Vietnam because they couldn't win .
Telling lies about my fellow Marines. I had to put up with all kinds of BS because I was a Marine from civilians. Its not like today when people at least respect the troops.Quote:
So Gawain , what lies did Kerry say about you and your service in Nam ?
How many villages did you raze , what livestock did you shoot , how many prisoners did you abuse , did you kill any civilians , did you destroy their food stores ?
Never said he was.Quote:
If the answer is none then why do you think he was talking about you and your work with cameras ?
Quote:
Do I need to remind you that you have written on this forum about torture and abuse practiced on prisoners in Nam , so you cannot deny that it hap
Goahead and remind me. The worst I remeber is taking a bunch of them up in a chopper and telling them if they dont answer our questions we'd throw them out. Which we did. However the chopper was only a few feet off the ground. I never saw this personally however but heard it from many grunts. Marines are known to exaggerate at times however,Most of my posts on torture in the Marines were on torture I inflicted on Marine officers in escape and evasion school.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/kerrymuseum1.jpg
Are any of their pictures hanging in the museum? The point is they picked Kerry, Hes their man. The Vietnamese will tell you that the anti war movement won them that war. Heck they like him so much they removed the picture when he started to get flak for so as to help him get elected.Quote:
Could you name any of the other american politicians (and their parties) or the serving and ex military officers who accompanied him on that visit and also had their picture up ?
Make your mind up Gawain
So no Marines killed any civilians , no marine shot livestock , none would ever burn a village , none would even consider abusing prisoners .......Quote:
Telling lies about my fellow Marines.
so which is it ?Quote:
Which we did. However the chopper was only a few feet off the ground. I never saw this personally however but heard it from many grunts. Marines are known to exaggerate at times however
While your mind tries to figure out how to get off that little contradiction which coupled with a wholesale detatchment from reality over Vietnam which makes your insistance of the non-existance over a few words uttered and a few imaginary words that were not uttered by Kerry (that was the original topic) seem like small fry .
Now then , since you were in the vicinity of the conflict when it was going on perhaps you can answer these little questions .
What was the status of prisoners of the various categories ?
What changes were made by your government regarding that ?
Who had jurisdiction over those various categories of prisoners ?
Under what article of either US military law or the international conventions of the laws of war does "grunts" throwing prisoners out of a chopper not = a crime of war ?
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Are any of their pictures hanging in the museum? The point is they picked Kerry, Hes their man. The Vietnamese will tell you that the anti war movement won them that war. Heck they like him so much they removed the picture when he started to get flak for so as to help him get elected.
Straight from the swiftboats website eh Gawain , do you have an avertion to truth ?:thumbsdown:
So tell me , what exactly is it you have against the MIA and their families ?
edit to add Hey Gawain , here is a tough one for ya .:inquisitive:
If you were to have looked at the picture of the chairman of the senate committee on missing servicemen , which General from the joint cheifs was in the picture to the right , which leaders of which delegatons of veterans associations were in the picture to the left and where was the picture of the entire delegation placed:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
There are missfits in every walk of life. But it was not the policy of the Marine Corps or the US do this as insinuated by Kerry an admitted war criminal.Quote:
So no Marines killed any civilians , no marine shot livestock , none would ever burn a village , none would even consider abusing prisoners .......
So which is what? Do you consider that torture?Quote:
so which is it ?
Under the fact that they suffered no physical harm. The guys on Jackass go through lots worse as did every officer who ran into me and my pals at evasion school. Now we knew how to torture people as we got our methods straight from the Vietnamese.Quote:
Under what article of either US military law or the international conventions of the laws of war does "grunts" throwing prisoners out of a chopper not = a crime of war ?
No that came from me .Quote:
Straight from the swiftboats website eh Gawain , do you have an avertion to truth ?
Nothing. Only against Kerry. Im not arguing why he went over there. Im just stating that the Vietnamese think he helped them win the war and thats why they singled him out and hung up his picture.Quote:
So tell me , what exactly is it you have against the MIA and their families ?
Who cares.Quote:
If you were to have looked at the picture of the chairman of the senate committee on missing servicemen , which General from the joint cheifs was in the picture to the right , which leaders of which delegatons of veterans associations were in the picture to the left and where was the picture of the entire delegation placed
Utter bollox , also why are you avoiding the question.....Quote:
Under the fact that they suffered no physical harm.
What was the status of prisoners of the various categories ?
What changes were made by your government regarding that ?
Who had jurisdiction over those various categories of prisoners ?
Under what article of either US military law or the international conventions of the laws of war does "grunts" throwing prisoners out of a chopper not = a crime of war ?
Do you not like the answers , the answers that are set out by your government and your military .
My my, you do have a fertile imagination then don't you , or is it just that you are able to post exactly the same rubbish as O'Neil all by yourself .Quote:
No that came from me .
oh I see , so the Vietmanese singled out the chairman of the delegation about whose visit the exhibit was about , not because he was the chairman of the delegation , but because he spoke of atrocities carried out in Vietnam , and they singled him out so badly that they forgot to not put up pictures of the rest of the delegation .:dizzy2:Quote:
Nothing. Only against Kerry. Im not arguing why he went over there. Im just stating that the Vietnamese think he helped them win the war and thats why they singled him out and hung up his picture.
Well if you didn't care you wouldn't have tried to make the false claim that his was the only photo .Quote:
Who cares.
So what you mean by "who cares" is :oops: a bit of a screwup , made a big mistake . But instead of saying that the assertion was completely wrong it is now consigned to the irrelevant file .
Still I suppose it is better than the claim the swiftliars tried to make earlier , before they once again had to retract their bull excrement , which was that the picture was in an exhibition also featuring , not the veterans associations , not members of the general staff , not the delegation , but Jane Fonda:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
You dont get hurt falling three ft to the ground.Quote:
Utter bollox
I havent looked at them lately nor am I inclined to do so now. Whats your point?Quote:
Do you not like the answers , the answers that are set out by your government and your military .
I wouldnt know as I didnt read what he said on this matter.Quote:
My my, you do have a fertile imagination then don't you , or is it just that you are able to post exactly the same rubbish as O'Neil all by yourself .
Where arte those pictures? Why do you think that picture is hanging there? To honor them coming over to look for MIAs?Quote:
and they singled him out so badly that they forgot to not put up pictures of the rest of the delegation
Rubbish , I have seen people die who fell while standing on the ground .Quote:
You dont get hurt falling three ft to the ground.
Awwww poor Gawain is not inclined to look at them now .Quote:
I havent looked at them lately nor am I inclined to do so now. Whats your point?
The point is .....
what was the status of prisoners of different categories(plus when did that status get changed due to the change in the nature of the conflict)
Who had jurisdiction over those prisoners .
What are the laws regarding the treatment of those prisoners .
Violation of those laws and regulations are war-crimes Gawain .:yes:
So you came to the same false conclusion all by yourself then , congratulations:dizzy2:Quote:
I wouldnt know as I didnt read what he said on this matter.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Where arte those pictures? Why do you think that picture is hanging there? To honor them coming over to look for MIAs?
Gawain , you posted the picture , you said what you thought it was hung for .
Didn't you read the caption on the picture you posted ?
Didn't you read what the exhibition was about ?
Thats not very clever is it :oops:
And then you top it all off by first trying to claim that it only featured Kerry , and then saying the pictures that you vainly tried to make an issue out of doesn't really matter .
BTW have you read or heard Kerrys speech yet , not just the 10 second snippet , are you still going to try and maintain your false claims ?
Here have a balloon since you are not doing very well so far , it might cheer you up :balloon2: hey have another as I am feeling generous:balloon2: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Tribesy:
You seem to take too much joy from your attempts to ridicule others.
Perhaps you should consider talking to a professional about this.