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In vanilla RTW, you had Thermon, Corinth, Sparta, Athens, Larissa, Thessalonica, and Byzantium, just on the western side of the Aegean, with Pergamun, Sardis, and Halicarnassus on the eastern side, as well as Rhodes and Kydonia on islands. In M2TW, the western side only has Constantinople, Thessalonica and Corinth. The eastern side only has Nicosia and Smyrna, with Rhodes and Iraklion on islands. The trade is much lower as a result.
OK thankyou
I will post my campaign with Byzantium soon.
But I got a maybe odd question as player of the 'old' MTW. WTF are our nafta guys??? They where so funny. Why are they not on Byzantium side?
I have to say this is one of the most fun factions to play as in the game. I don't know if it is the purple or what, but the way they play, it reminds me of a parthia campaign in RTW. Great horse archers and heavy cav. and so-so to decent foot soldiers. :2thumbsup:
I have had more fun in this campaign than any others (including RTW campaigns). Initially, I expanded West and left the Turks as a buffer against Egypt and the impending arrival of the Mongols, but the Egyptians were slow and the Mongols, when they did show up, headed West to Kiev instead of South through Tblisi.
Anyway I have endured a Jihad called against my Capital, have had Crusaders marching up and down my territory, and the Mongols stomping all over the homeland. Together with flood, earthquake and plague it has been a very eventful campaign indeed.
Strategically it is unlike other campaigns where you might just expand or consolidate, with Byzantium you have to be prepared to take a backward step now and again. As far as expanding goes then the player must be prepared to be patient, incremental and opportunistic.
I think the Byzantine Heavy cavalry are way to hard to reach.
I mainly use infantry and siege equipment. The only heavy cavalry I can generally get are Mercenary Frankish Knights and Armenian and Alan Cavalry
IMO, the Byzantine heavy cavalry are almost completely unnecessary. I went the bulk of my campaign with the Empire using no heavy cavalry apart from general's bodyguards. Mass quantities of horse archers, properly used=victory. That's where the strength of this faction lies.
I'm certain you can use the knight types effectively, if you want to play things that way, but the horse archers are easier to get and amazingly effective.
Remember: "If one unit is good, fifty has got to be better."
Well, having put a few hours into the Bizzy campaign with the 1.2 leaked patch, I can tell you that things are now different. We can have peace in our time.
On M/M, I married into the Hungarian royal family and the Turks accepted an alliance agreement before they ever declared war. What's amazing is, so far, both have been iron clad.
Alliances work better, now. Venice leapt at the opportunity to make an alliance with me, and when they did, they signed a peace treaty with Hungary. I suspect this would have held, too, had they not been at war already. They later attacked the Hungarians, and I was given a choice which to back, and that’s NEVER happened to me before, probably because alliances have never lasted long enough. Eventually, Venice did start a war with me by blockading a port, but only after I opted out of our agreement.
The Turks have behaved rather honorably. I use watchtowers and spies to keep a close eye on them. So far, they’ve packed one of their more useless family members off to a fort near my border with a couple of militia units, and left him there. They have been picking off rebel settlements, but aside from a diplomat, having trespassed at all. I’m hoping that this will last until the Mongols arrive and that they finish each other off.
With three secure flanks, I have a lot of freedom to expand. I’m preparing a force to attack Venice, and have set down a full stack in Egypt. The empty desert is ideal horse archer land. I’ve claimed the Nile, and am going to fortify my position, and expand West over Africa. I might push East as well, and when the Mongols start to arrive, I’ll gift the closest city to the Pope, and let the Catholics and Turks worry about it.
Napatha Throwers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreides
The dudes who threw clay oil grenades?
lol yea they were funny, usually hitting their own guys. But when they worked well, they could turn a losing battle into a winning one
Back where they belong - in the armies of Allah!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldhore
Sorry Moah, the Naphtha was invented by the Byzantines.
That's why it was called "Greek Fire" They had it for a couple of hundred years before there were any army's of Allah
Alright it seems like everyone here follows what the game recommends in its little one sentence summary of each faction, which I think is retarded. I personally hate the Byzantine (east roman for you nerds haha) cavalry archers; it doesn't seem like they pack the punch of Hungarian or Polish Nobles. Therefore, in my last Byzantine campaign, I made very western european type armies with large infantry formations, and WOW do byzantine troops rule. It's weird, b/c everyone on here is all about cavalry archers for the Byz, yet I had multiple field armies of byzantine lancers (dismounted and mounted), latinkons, byz infantry, varangian guard, byz spearmen (upgraded of course) and I was wading through oceans of Hungarian, German, and Polish blood. As a matter of fact, I made it all the way up to Arhus, but got bored and did something productive outside lol. Idk, that just goes to show that Byz infantry is NASTY, and is capable of brutalizing any faction as long as you play it right.
Puppetmaster, that's good to hear. One reason I haven't tried the Byz in 2 is because everyone says they are such the Horse Archer faction now. I'm far more of an infantry guy. Horses are just so I know who my general is. :P
If the Byz can make a go of it as an infantry nation, I'll have to give them a go next run.
The other reason I haven't given them a go is they are far too close to where the Mongols and Timurids live. Those people give me nightmares. Though I don't know how they might be changed now that 1.2 is in...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeutonicKnight
haha yeah man i see your point in avoiding the timurids, i basically lost 10 full stack armies to them on H/H in my holy roman empire campaign, and yeah i'm kind of pissed seeing as how my competent forces of veteran gothic and imperial knights were decimated before my eyes. elephants with cannons on their backs? can we be remotely realistic here? haha
Byzantium Troops – By the numbers in 1.2
Spear Units
The Byzantines have only three spear units. It is perhaps their biggest weakness in their force pool. They could really use a pike or halberd unit or an actual armored Spearman. All of these units have exactly the same stats. The only difference is the number of times they can receive armor upgrades or form special formations. The only saving grace common to Byzantine spear units is that are cheap to build and cheap to maintain
Town Militia
These are the first unit a city can build. They do nothing well except die and keep public order but given the limited options the Byzantines have for this type of troop you are probably going to have to use them on a regular basis so get an armor up grade if possible. Their one good point is that they are miles better than peasants and work much better as a garrison. They can receive one armor upgrade. They are free to maintain in a city. They are built in a city
Spear Militia
These along with Archer Militia will will probably be the most common unit in Byzantine armies. They are weaker than comparable Italian troops in almost every way. They have only three strong points. 1. They are free to maintain in a garrison 2. They have an outstanding defense bonus against cavalry. The come in groups of 75 rather than 60 which means that they are 25% better than the town militia through sheer numbers. It is important to get these troops an armor upgrade. Built in a city
Byzantine Spearmen
Identical to Militia Spearmen in all respects EXCEPT for being able to form a schiltrom or defensive circle, they have an additional armor upgrade, do NOT receive the free upkeep in a city and cost more in upkeep. I try to not use these the defensive ring is useless if they are protecting archers. For most of the things you need a spearman for the Spear Militia perform as well and cost less. There is one exception. If you are using the Spearmen as assault infantry. Have the first unit of Byzantine spearmen engage an enemy and form the defensive ring so they can't be flanked. Then have another unit of Byzantine Spearmen charge into the enemy. It waste a lot of men but it works. They come in groups of 75. Built in a castle
Missile Units
The Byzantine do not have access to a crossbow unit in their force pool. But two of their elite archer units are rather fearsome
Peasant Archers
Identical to other peasant archers. They do require upkeep when used as garrisons
Archer Militia
These are basic unarmored archers. They are fairly easy to reach. They do not pay upkeep when garrisoning. They can receive one armor upgrade. The have a good skill rating and are as good or better than most of the archers they will face. These are a very useful archer unit because you can build bunches of them and keep them for free in a city, castle or fort and them march them out when needed. They have much better armor than the peasant archer unit. (3 vs. 1) They come in groups of 60. They are built in a city
Trebizond Archers
These are a good upgrade from the Archer Militia in some ways but not in others. They have a longer range, they have better moral, better armor and a better secondary weapon and fighting ability. They are probably better than most of the non-crossbow units they might face. Once they run out of arrows they can make good units to chase down routing units and are able defend themselves against infantry that break through your spear wall which is good since the Byzantine spears are rather weak. They must pay up keep so only build them for an Army you are planing to use. They are also easy to reach. They come groups of 60 and are built in castles
***** Because they have a higher moral, longer range and better armor and attack Trebizond archers can murder most of the cheaper Horse Archer units********
Guard Archers
These have the longer range, they are better armored than most infantry They can fight almost as well or better than many infantry units and have a good moral. They are expensive cost a lot to maintain but are fairly easy to reach for a unit of this quality. Nasty unit. In some ways they are best unit in the Byzantine force pool because they are so versatile. They can often times sweep the field; especially if they are trying to reduce the numbers of poorly armored cavalry or infantry.
Byzantine Infantry Units
The Byzantine infantry units are generally capable if not exceptional. However, while more limited in types than other factions all the Byzantine infantry units generally have these strong points in common. 1. They are fairly well armored 2. They have low maintenance cost when compared to similar units in other armies. 3. They are fairly easy to reach 4. None of them are eligible for free upkeep if they are a garrison.
Peasants
Just like everybody else's peasants. They can be used to garrison. You must pay upkeep and they die like flies even from behind walls. Avoid them if you can and use the Town Militia instead. They come groups of 60 and are built at a castle.
Byzantine Infantry
Compared to Dismounted Men at Arms or Broken Lances these are not quite as good. However, they cost 100 gold per turn less in upkeep. These can be reached at the beginning of the game by upgrading the Drill Square in Constantinople twice. They can receive two armor upgrades. They are built in a city.
Dismounted Byzantine Lancers
Exactly the same stats as Byzantine Infantry except they can receive 4 armor upgrades and they cost a bit more to maintain. That is significant but they are also effectively much more difficult to reach because you have to upgrade the castle at Corinth at least once plus upgrading the barracks three times to be able to reach them. Since the Cavalry and archer units are also built at a castle you're probably going to have more important upgrades at your castle settlements. I find that I tend to get these from castles I've captured. The four upgrades is important if you can get it because that makes them almost as good as the Latinkon's with a considerably lower maintenance cost. There are 60 in a group and they are built at castles
Dismounted Latinkon
These seem to be actually easier to reach than the Varangian guard units in practice. But that may not be the actual case. They have an excellent attack, are very well armored an above average moral and can receive two armor upgrades. These can slice and dice their way through most spear units with ease. If you can get them to attack from a flank they route almost anything. They come in groups of 60 and are built at castles
Varangian Guard
A massive armor piercing attack, fairly good armor, through the roof moral and cheaper to build and maintain than almost any other comparable units. Their only weakness is their lack of shields while fighting which lowers their armor class a bit. However, they'll kill most other units before this becomes a problem. This unit along with the Guard Archers almost single handedly makes up for all the other holes in the Byzantine force pool. They are difficult to reach, Constantinople has to have the 10,000 gold wall built and then you can built the drill square needed. However, it is worth the effort to reach these. They come groups of 60 and are built in a CITY
Byzantine Cavalry
Byzantine Cavalry is a difficult to use because most of it is missile cavalry. The AI is better at using it than in the pre-1.2 game but still not very competent. However, if you fight your own battles the Skythikon and Vardariotai can fearsome units. The lower level Byzantine cavalry units all have poor moral which
Greek Militia Cavalry
This is the only cavalry that be built in a city but you must have a merchant's guild. They have respectable stats except for a low moral which makes them unreliable. The pay no upkeep in a garrison.
Skythikon and Cuman Horse Archers
The basic unarmored horse archer. The only difference is that the Cuman's cost a little more in upkeep and can only be purchased as mercenaries but the Skythikon are available from any castle. Their saving grace is that because they are so easily available they are often the first archer unit that the Byzantines have available. One of the ways I've used this unit is to set them up in FRONT of a Town Militia unit making sure that both out of range of enemy archers. I then shoot arrows at an opposing unit and get them to charge the Skythikon who then beat a hasty retreat behind the militia. who are better able to absorb the charge of the now (hopefully) depleted attackers. The Skythikon then setup as archers behind the militia and continue shooting arrows. It's not a great strategy but it's the best I can do with these troops. Both Skythikon can Cumans have poor moral
Byzantine Cavalry
Almost a hybrid unit in that they are neither a true horse archer or a true sword wielding light cavalry. They also suffer from abysmal moral. They do have good armor stats They come in groups of 40 and are available in the basic castle
Byzantine Lancers
This is the first true lance equipped shock cavalry that you can reach. They are fairly easy to reach have adequate moral and are somewhat comparable to “Mailed Knights.” They are also inexpensively maintained. The big thing about these guys is that they can receive four (4)!!!!!! worth of armor upgrades. If you can get them maxed out on the upgrades they go from being a mediocre unit to being a fairly decent one
Alan Light Cavalry
A mercenary unit, available exclusively to the Byzantines throughout the Near East but not the Balkins that is some what equivalent to the Lancers. They have an armor piercing secondary attack and a reasonable upkeep cost. They can have one armor upgrade and come in groups of 40
Latinkon
These are basically equivalent to Broken lances but are much cheaper to maintain and have better armor. A standard heavy cavalry unit. There are some better but these are certainly good enough. They are difficult to reach but their low upkeep makes them a very attractive option
Kataphractoi
Better armored than Latinkons with an Armor piercing secondary attack. They have two armor upgrades and a good moral. These do not appear to be quite as distinct a unit as they were in MTW but still a nice cavalry unit. I'm not sure they worth the effort to reach them however, because they don't appear to off that many advantages over the Latinkons
Vardariotai
The first heavy Cavalry the Byzantine faction has available. This is the cavalry equivalent of the Guard Archer or what the Byzantine Cavalry aspire to be. They have a good secondary attack, they are well armored, they are cheap to maintain and the cost a bunch to buy. If you can get them upgraded and some experience they can be very good unit if you figure out how to use missile cavalry
Greek Body Guard
equivalent to other factions body guards but they don't improve over the course of the game to a “Late Version” however, the standard version is still a good unit
Puppet Master,
I seldom use the horse archers. Indeed, the only reason I use any of the horse archers at all is because I find the Byzantine cavalry to be way to hard to reach.
The Byzantine Infantry actually has some very good features that I talk about above. Namely the upkeep cost is sometimes as much a 1/2 similar units in factions list.
Personally, I never use Byzantine Cavalry opting instead for the almighty Vardariotai(when available) or Scythikons. The reason is because Byz Cav lacks the "Fast Moving" attribute, which imho is the most important one for cavalry archers. Vardariotai of course are worth their weight in gold twice over.
Yes, their worst, the lack of speed. It broke my nerves when opposite horse archers kill a half of my army.
The Varangian Guard units were pretty beastly with the sword mod fix in 1.1. How has the 1.2 treated them? They just as good, better, or worse?
I think the Varangian guard are now the best unit in the game when you take their low upkeep cost into consideration. Also you don't lose them late.
As an interesting note. Warren Treadgold in his book "Byzantium and its Army: 284 - 1081" ISBN 08047831632 seems to indicate that at least some of the Varangian Guard were heavy Cavalry.
As he is one of the best know Byzantine scholars around it makes me wonder if there shouldn't be a Varangian cavalry unit.
He also list an actual manifest or summary of the troops in a normal Byzantine army. You couldn't build that army using this game.
I love these guys now... They are usually charged with the task of chopping enemy heavy horse into steaks, and they do a damn fine job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skott
I started a byzintine campaign after I finished my HRE campaign to unlock the factions. I'm playing 1.2 official patch. My experiance is that archery is your best friend with them. I've had groups of 4-6 byz. cav. with maybe 1-2 vards mixed in kill enemy infantry like it was going out of style. I've had battles where I've killed 2000 and lost 150 or so, with pure HA armies.
Also I've tested in custom battle a guard archer can beat DFK 1vs1. They can thin them out good enough where they can kill them with swords afterwards. Treb. archers murder enemy infantry and HA's. The thing that you have to get your head around after playing western factions is your starting infantry thats basicly is ONLY spear militia from cities and byz. spearmen from castles can't stand up to western troops such as the armoured spearmen of all types and dismounted knights. While byz. infantry are fairly good they don't come until later.
Killing archers and xbows are fairly easy with all HA armies especially if you use the higher grade ones like byz. cav. or vards. All you have to do is lure out the infantry with a few then charge the archers with flanking units. All the while your HA will be raining death even while on the move! Early on Hungry is your worst foe because they have good HA aswell. What I end up doing is either send some byz. cav or vards to attack in melee and chase them down while exchanging missile fire. That way I can kill the infantry with the rest of my army with out that annoyance.
Just to give you an Idea I have 4 vards I got from my first mission reward with 2 gold cheverons just after prince John then king died. You should see the carnage that 8 units of trez archers and HA can lay down to infantry armies. In one instance I widdled down a 800 or so man army down to ~100 men before they hit my byz. spear/sword line. That was with 8 trebs and 4 vards with a general.
In my battles you really get the whole "fight in the shade" experinance! :2thumbsup: :laugh4:
Whoever said that peace with hungary and Russia is possible in our lifetime,don't you believe it.In my game which I continued when the 1.2 patch game out we are enaged in a war of attrition in which large Ha armies of mine intercept their armies en-route to sieging my cities and destroy them,but I did take sofia,which is a citadel from them,so how maybe I'll get some respite.They where allied with the egyptians when they finally wore out my patience with port blockade 1.01 and I destroyed them but I thought they'd have made peace after the egyptians died,and since I've offered them peace for 5,000+ with no luck,so I may have to kill them off..
I have a Crazy Idea. (Haven't tried it yet, but it popped into my head when I got a load of Timurid elephants.)
Rampaging barbarians are not my idea of a good time. That and the porous borders are the only reasons why I don't find the Byzantines ideal for campaign purposes. Let someone else deal with smelly nomads from off the steppe, I want to shoot fish in a barrel!
Supposing you invaded Spain.
Take the whole Byzantine Empire, put it on a tractor-trailer and go island hopping. Sweep up Rhodes, Crete, Corsica, Sardinia and possibly Sicily on the way if you have a strange sense of humor. The Turks, Venetians and Hungarians will probably carve up your old provinces while you're away; wish them well. Your eye is on the prize, and the prize is Grenada.
Think about it this way -- the blokes who are best suited to stop Byzantine horse archers are your neighbors at the start of the game: Russia, Poland, Hungary, Turkey, Egypt. The blokes in Western Europe mostly won't get missile cavalry until the Late period, which means you've got the only horse archers within hundreds of miles. Western armies are terrible at ranged combat. Playing Byzantium in Spain means looking at your neighbors and thinking, "that guy would look great with a piece of wood sticking out of his forehead". The Iberian Peninsula is defended by the Andes, which lets you mop up the Spanish, Portugese and Moors in peace and quiet. Walk your way back East. What're they gonna do, excommunicate you?
Too much work imho. It's easier to just conquer the the lands surrounding your starting area. Besides, Constantinople is far too important to leave to the vultures. Before the arrival of gunpowder the Byzantines are unstoppable no matter who they are fighting against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebellious Waffle
It seems like there's two things we can do along those lines.
1) Snag Rhodes, Crete, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Tunis and Tarentum as a prelude to taking all the cities on the Northwestern coast of the Mediterranean Sea, then snag Spain and West Africa along the way. Walk your way East, until you press the enemy against the Italian peninsula if you've managed to sweep it up. Once you've got France and Normandy under your thumb you can send an invasion fleet across the Channel if you like, but it might be better to swarm in and snag the Holy Roman Empire's provinces. Make everyone else into the Russians' problem.
2) Take Turkey and use it as a base for massive invasion of the Russian steppe. Once you've secured the old Russian border with Poland and Hungary, drive North from the Balkans and West from the steppe, shunting the enemy into Holy Roman Empire territory. The trick will be keeping the pressure up long enough to consolidate both assault forces for a massed attack on France, then plug up the Alps and Andes in preparation for throwing your army at the British Isles. If the Mongols and Timurids carve chunks out of your eastern holdings, you can afford to take the hit until you consolidate in the West and reconquer the places you lost along the way.
Maybe it's just a pipe dream, but something tickles me about it because it's so incongruous.
A second Crazy Idea came up, and it's working rather well:
1. Snag all of Asia Minor from the Turks.
2. Snag Hungary, Venice, Egypt, the Levant and Sicily's starting provinces. (Tricky)
3. Donate all of Egypt, the Holy Land, Arabia (i.e. Bagdhad, the provinces just East of Antioch, Jerusalem and Aleppo) and possibly bits of Africa to the Papal states in exchange for Rome. Send an invasion fleet West along the African coast, conquering cities and donating them to the Papal States until you reach Tunis. Keep Tunis to yourself. The idea is to make the Papal States a military and economic powerhouse in the East, while getting onto the Pope's good side in a big way.
4. Become the Pope's ally with full military access, and send him presents regularly.
This may look like a completely goofy strategy, and it is. The idea has a few advantages:
1. You get Rome without the threat of crusades being called against you, which is a biggie. That allows you to mop up the entire Italian peninsula and use it as a base to sweep in and conquer the Western Empire.
2. You wipe out two of the three Jihad-calling factions and make it pretty much impossible for anyone to crusade against you, removing two of the most annoying threats to Byzantine power.
3. The Pope is a good neighbor. Never attacks anybody. You can make his Empire as big as you want and no bigger -- it's like cultivating a giant rock garden. You still get the economic benefits of trade with the Levant, and there's plenty of room to expand in the West anyway.
4. When the barbarian hordes come calling, guess whose doorstep they'll land on? The Pope has authority to call crusades on the Mongols and Timurids, which goes a ways towards neutering the barbarians and periodically strips your neighbors of soldiers at the same time!
5. The Holy Land is a high-profile target that's hard to defend and it's not even part of your winning conditions. Rome, however, is. And it's much more convenient to have, because your opponents have to tear through Northern Italy to threaten it at all, and you'll have Italy wrapped up like a Christmas present from your invasions.
6. It's just plain wacky. There's something to be said for careening through history like a bull in a china shop. aye?
I'm playing this faction now. (I have always played Catholic or Moorsish factions)
I followed some of Reb Waffle's advice except there is one problem.
The Pope cannot trade Rome. It is his capital.
At least I can't figure out how to trade it from him.
What I've done is as follows:
Allied with Hungary.
Allied with Pope.
Give them both money to keep them at least Amicable.
I blitzed west to Zagred taking Sofia and Albania (Whatever it is, minor province) on the way.
I also blitzed North and around the Black Sea stopping at Sarkel (Stalingrad?) I missed the castle north of Bucharest, Poland got it, but got Kiev. Poland then offered an alliance. I had to break it a few turns later when Hungary attacked Poland (they were boxed in so they went north :) )
I also sent my prince south to take Rhodes and the castle in the way. Then sent him to whack the Turks. Surprisingly I killed them off after taking thier capital which was mostly empty. :oops: I then had to hurry and take most of Turkey and Antioch before Egypt got there. I wanted the Turks to be around to buffer the Mongols.:whip:
Before I took Antioch the pope called a crusade agaisnt Antioch. (I'm not sure if Egypt owned it or not.) Poland came down and took it. Then they left to try and take (Jerusalem?) something south and Antioch rebeled. So I took Antioch. I took Edessa and gave a couple of provices to the Pope.
It is now turn 60. I have my defensive line drawn north to south at Trezbond, Ceasarea, and Antioch. The Ventians would NOT leave me alone by attacking Rhodes with 3-4 armies. So I took Ragusa and Iraklion from them leaving Venice with Venice only. Venice was actually kind of easy as I had hordes of Cav Archers skirmishing and firing. Venice wasn't equiped to handle Cav Archers.
My only borders I need to worry about is East from the Mongols and North from Hungary. (Egypt and the Pope are fighting and the Pope is holding them off nicely. :)
I'm now allied with Hungary, Egypt and the Pope. The relations with the Pope are Outstanding (Just as Reb Waffle hinted at) which is where I want them.
Much of Eastern Turkey and Iraq are in Rebel hands. I'm hoping the Mongols take one of those and then break up a bit so I can take thier initial uber-stacks one at a time.
Hungary has been fantastic as a neighbor. They went after Poland and HRE. HRE is about toast and Poland and Hungary are in a stalemate. The Catholics are all fighting amongst themselves (Milan vs Venice and Sicily, France vs Portugal and Spain, England vs Denmark and Scotland, Hungary vs HRE and Poland) Haven't heard boo out of the Moors or Russia except a trade deal with Russia. The Pope now has at least 3 provinces in the Holy Land area. Egypt is pinned in at Acre and Jerusalem (They got a small stack headed for Bagdad/Mosul)
Should be interesting. I'm really quite inexperienced fighing Mongrels so I hope I do ok.
The trick to getting him to trade Rome is to give him a few Middle Eastern provinces first -- the computer uses some manner of unrest-minimization algorithm to find out where its capitol should be, and if you give the Pope a lot of Levantine provinces he'll move his capitol over there. Once that's done, you need to rack up Egyptian provinces to complete the trade for Rome.
Another campaign model for Byzantium I'm using is to pick up stakes and move the whole bidness to Spain. By turn 35 I've got the whole Iberian peninsula, North Africa, and the two French provinces East of the Pyrenees, with designs on interior France and Rennes. Constantinople, Nicaea, Nicosia, Corinth and Thessalonica are now the Pope's problem, and I hope he has fun with the Turks.
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that you need 45 provinces with Rome AND Jerusalem to win. So don't forget about Jerusalem. Personally in all other campaigns I usually leave it till the end because of all the problems associated with that restless province.
I actually had to restart my campaign :P The power went out and my save got corrupted. I was only 63 turns into it so all is not lost. I can do better now that I have learned a bit from mistakes.
You're right, I looked it up and owning just Rome is the prerequisite to victory in the Holy Roman Empire campaign. Still, even if you donate Jerusalem it's a hop, skip and a jump from the seashore and can be taken quickly by a spy/army combo if need be.
That is usually what I do with all the Catholics
Hey all, I just played Byzantium last night and they're quite a difficult but managable faction. I missed the Romans so much that I wanted to see what the Byzantines were all about and yeah I agree there Byzantine cavalry and Zarototai cavalry are damned good. Its good to see that the Romans didn't get rid of everything in the few hundred years that have passed... shame about the western roman empire though...
Well that said, I played them and I sent Prince John's army to take the rebel castle north of Thessalonica, more or less north, and fortified it with a decent sized army incase the Venetian's decided to argue about who gets it. I sent my general... whats his name... anyway the guy who was in Thessalonica to the town just west of it so I gave me a new source of income, and a place where troops can be trained to defend against Sicilian and Venetian incursions. On my Eastern front I had taken Rhodes, Smyra... spelling error, Trebezoid and Irakilion. Now I just advance what I have economically and millitary wise and I'm in the process of taking back what the Eastern Roman's had lost!
Since I played Barbarian Invasion and now Medieval 2 I compared the territory's of the Eastern Roman Empire to the Byzantines and my god!! What a loss of ground!! Iraklion? How did the Venetian's get it? Rebellion probably? And africa... Egypt? For heavens sake they been conquered so many times why don't they just give up!
Stay on topic, please. All history discussion belongs in the monastery
I'm going to trim away all posts and parts of posts in this topic which are not related to the game, since it appears allowing a little leeway does not aid the goals of this forum. This will apply to all other threads here too, as and when it can be managed.
Thanks for cleaning up.:shame:
I'm about to start a new campaign as Byzantium. I wanted to know: Is it possible to keep the European parts of your empire stable, conquering Sofia and Durazzo, then staying defensive - and meanwhile capturing Anatolia, the Levant and Egypt, to reinstall the former ERE? Or will I be overrun by Latin invaders? I know Venice and Hungary can become really nasty.
Well from my experience of playing as the Byzantines I also conquered Sofia and Durazzo and if you bolster them with mainly byzantinian spearmen and trebizond archers you can hold the Venetians, Milanese and the Sicilians at bay since they, with me, usually sent just mailed knights and italian militia(The Hungarians have never attacked me so I have no experience of fighting their army sorry) In both Sofia and Durazzo I had 6 units of spearmen and I think 3 units of archers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius Merobaudes
I've tried to take back the lands that the Eastern Roman Empire lost, it is difficult but possible you just have to stick in there, have patience and plenty of it! I took back the lands the Eastern Empire had up to Alexandria after that the Mongols came and started to rampage through my lands taking one settlement after another :wall: . So in effect I really only made a "net gain" of the Asia minor territories that Turkey had not much but acceptable :2thumbsup:
Having played the Byzantines for quite a while now with the 1.2 patch (Including for hour and hours on a laptop while crossing the Pacific in a plane) I will stand by my initial walk through on page one or two of this thread. Though I have modified it a bit.
The short version
Marry Anna to the Hungarians
Make a treaty with Venetians and wait for them to break it
Go after the rapacious Turks from turn 1
The object is to gain control of the south East corner of the map from Tunis to Zagreb. To do this you simply have to be wily enough to keep from being at war with more than two factions at once. Something that has changed with the patch is that it appears that there are now many more times when the AI will blockade a port or place a city under siege simply to gain favor with merchants or nobles. You can sometimes let them blockade your port or siege your city for two turns and find that they are more than happy forgive and forget. This is especially true if you can keep your reputation higher than despicable which is sometime a problem for take 'em and sack or exterminate 'em me
Administrators-If this belongs somewhere else please feel free to move it just tell me where
Someone asked me to place a set of links to works dealing with Byzantine history and military.
Here are some that I have used or know about. Most of these or similar titles should be available in any university or larger public library. This is not meant to be an exhaustive list and if anyone has something they think should be added send me a private message, I'll add it.
General Reference
The Complete Idiot's Guide(R) to the Crusades
Encyclopedia of the Byzantine Empire (I agree with the reviewer on Amazon.com that this is a somewhat mediocre source)
Empires At War: A Chronological Encyclopedia From Sumer To The Fall Of Byzantium
Ancient Europe, 8000 B.C. to A.D. 1000: An Encyclopedia of the Barbarian World Edition (Two volume set)
The Encyclopedia of Ancient Civilizations of the Near East and Mediterrnaean
Encyclopedia of the Roman World This does not look like the one I have
Historical Atlas of the Crusades
Biography
The Alexiad Of particular interest since the author is the Byzantine princes you have control of at the beginning of M2TW
Byzantine History
A Concise History of Byzantium
Byzantium and Its Army, 284-1081 A very useful book in many ways
History of Byzantium: 306-1453 This is the only one on this list I haven't at least looked at.
History of the Turks
Turks: A Journey of a Thousand Years, 600-1600
The Turks in World History
Armies of the Ottoman Turks, 1300-1774
DVD-Video
Byzantium: The Lost Empire A stunning documentary from the Discovery Channel that explores the culture and art of the Byzantine Empire. My set is a 3 DVD set I don't know why this one is two DVD set?
Dated and I think often wrong but soooooo Influential
The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
Controversial
The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam : From Jihad to Dhimmitude : Seventh-Twentieth Century
Stranger than Fiction
This guy claims to be the heir to the Byzantine throne
Atreides, who seems to think I know a lot about the Byzantine Empire asked me to post a list of sources on Byzantium. I sent him a shorter version of this. Most of these I have at least looked at. I'll link what I can through Amazon,com and give you a full title and ISBN number for the others. I have purchased some of these for the library I direct for use in AP World History classes and most of them should be on shelf at any university or larger public library and they may be on the shelf at a school library if your school has a big AP focus
This is not necessary an exhaustive list works by any stretch. Just ones I know about and have at time consulted. Others might want to add something to it. If so drop me a private message.
Reference works
Encyclopedia of the Byzantine Empire
Empires
At War: A Chronological Encyclopedia From Sumer To The Fall Of Byzantium
The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Crusades
Ancient Europe, 8000 B.C. to A.D. 1000: An Encyclopedia of the Barbarian World
http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Roman-World-History/dp/0746061307/ref=sr_1_4/102-0700512-4318521?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185253656&sr=1-4"]Encyclopedia of the Roman Worldhttp://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-R...5253656&sr=1-4
DVD-Video
Byzantium : The Lost Empire
Biography
The Alexiad
This work is particularly good for M2TW because it chronicles the life and time Emperor Alexis I who is the emperor you start the game with. Anna Comeus is the Byzantine princes you have at the beginning of the game
Byzantine History
Any book by Warren Treadgold is a good place to start. He can be rather dry but his books are generally short and filled with facts. I particularly like Byzantium and its Army and A Concise Historyof Byzantium
http://www.amazon.com/Emperor-Justin...5253740&sr=1-5
Byzantine Philosophy and Its Ancient Sources
Related works
The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (Not a personal favorite of mine)
Turks:
[/B] History of the Turks[/B]
A Journey of a Thousand Years, 600-1600
Armies of the Ottoman Turks, 1300-1774
[/B]More controversial[/B]
The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam : From Jihad to Dhimmitude : Seventh-Twentieth Century
duplicate deleted
Something I've discovered during my Byzantine campaigns:
Byzantine guard archers are not your everyday archer corps: they're well-armored and good at melee fighting. Not the best infantry fighters, mind, but very serviceable nonetheless. They're not as lethal in ranged combat as English longbowmen, and they lack the punch of gunpowder units -- but with armor upgrades they can serve as Roman legionaries.
One of the Romans' great advantages in battle was the pilum, the javelin. Byzantine guard archers don't have javelins, of course, but they can start shooting from farther away, which compensates for the lower level of armor-piercing punch.
Thinking thus, I began to construct my Byzantine legions in the following manner:
10 Byzantine guard archers
5 Heavy infantry (Varangian guard for preference)
4 Heavy cavalry (Kataphractoi for preference)
Assorted specialists (General, Vardariotai, artillery, etc.)
Deployment is based on the manipular legion:
A = Archers
C = Cavalry
M = Melee infantry
CC AAAAA CC
AAAAA
MMMMM
Archers are ordered not to skirmish. As the enemy closes in, the arrows start to fall; it's not gunpowder, but ten stacks of archers can do a lot of damage, and the damage only increases as the enemy draws near. When melee fighting begins, fire-at-will mode is disabled; the front rank stands its ground and gives battle, while the second rank continues to rain arrows on whatever enemies are hanging around the edge of the fighting. As the front rank is depleted, the second rank steps into the breach. Should gaps appear in the line even after such reinforcement, the fully rested melee infantry (think Triarii) rush in and butcher the exhausted foe. Cavalry can be used to wither the flanks and rear with hammer-and-anvil style charges. When the enemy routs, melee infantry and cavalry withdraw and the archers form ranks, pouring more arrows into the backs of the fleeing foe. The long range and high ammo compliment of Byzantine guard archers lets them shine over their Roman forebears in this regard -- they can slaughter routers without breaking ranks, allowing them to instantly resume a defensive posture at need.
You don't have much to fear from massed cavalry charges into your archer contingent, by the by -- witness the Battle of Crecy. What you lack in English longbows can be made up by the sheer volume of archers at your disposal. The enemy cavalry have no choice but to charge your archers or die ignominiously under a storm of arrows -- thus pinning them to your archers, assuming they even survive the charge. Send in your own heavy cavalry to crush them from behind, and it'll be a slaughter.
Artillery are mainly useful because of their long striking distance. The enemy will have to engage at close quarters in order to avoid being taken apart piecemeal; but then they come within arrow range and the fit really hits the shan. Plant your cavalry to either side, forcing the foe into a long, narrow funnel -- your arrows will be maximally effective under such conditions. By the time they close for melee combat, they'll be in no condition to fight anything.
Summing up: Roman legions went out of style because of the battle of Adrianople, where massed cavalry broke the Romans' ranks and they didn't have anything like enough time to use their pila effectively against such targets -- fast-moving, lots of momentum. Guard archers can shoot from longer range, negating this cavalry advantage and bringing the Legion back into style. Roma vivo!
Dude, in this game no spearmen means death or poverty. As much as i hate it the Biz heavy cav is not up to the Catholics. So your cathafracts will hardly be a match to FK, or CK. Not to mention how "easy" is to build earl or king stables. Even if they made it some how, the cost will be to great.Your stack will be wipth out from 10 FK only. And about the mongols.
Dismounted latinkon are better than variag (on ver 1.02) and easy to build. Plus that way all your units will be made in a citadel.
On the other hand the guard archers are really good as you say it. So i propose a army of 4 guard archers, 5 dismounted latinkon and 5 biz. spearmen. The rest is vardariotary. Way? Because the Byzantium here do not have pure might and armor, instead they have agility. And the best HA in the game. Use it. Biz is not Rome, and is not France. And since 4th century A.D. all infantry armies become a joke.
I used to think the same way, but the army I just described is working pretty well so far. More heavy infantry and spears can be added as specialists, but the core formation hasn't failed me yet in wars against Westerners. One or two thousand arrows before the engagement begins make decent substitutes for spears, and if the enemy is really Cavalry-heavy the archers can always skirmish back into the lines whilst spear specialists handle the rest.
your formation looks good, but you'll probably need some spearmen to watch your flanks and some fast cav to chase down routers (who said horse archers ?)
another thing, I read that you use fire at will. Though it is efficient already, I'd like to stress that focusing 10 unit-fire on a single unit can be devastating too.
for instance, those silver chevron guys you spot among the enemy's army on the campaign map, or just to create a gap in the line...
Still I like your formation, it really feels like it is some sort of legion that has evolued over time.
Typically what I've done is use Kataphractoi as flank protection; circumstances have conspired at points throughout the campaign such that it was often easier for me to get quality archers and horses than spearmen, which is where the formation first came into being. Armor upgrades can give Byzantine guard archers a defense rating about equal to that of dismounted lancers; they can hold out in melee long enough to receive support from specialist hand-to-hand fighters, which they only really need if they're facing high-quality heavy infantry or cavalry that got through the initial hail of arrows. The crippling effect of mass arrow fire usually wreaks enough devastation on oncoming infantry so that the one-on-one melee superiority of the enemy's fighters doesn't matter as much.
(This can be somewhat surprising -- it surprised me when I first began to experiment -- because one usually doesn't get to see the effects of that much massed arrow fire on an oncoming formation. But consider; 10 stacks of 60 archers each, would release 600 arrows in one full volley. Even if the enemy comes in hard and fast enough for you to only get off three volleys, that's still 1,800 arrows loosed before the melee fighting even begins. If we're conservative and say that 1 arrow in 30 will kill an enemy soldier, that's 60 enemy casualties right off the bat, or a full infantry stack. Not a bad body count, all things considered.)
Interestingly enough, my experience is that light cavalry chasers aren't as important with this sort of army than they are with others; routing foes tend to fall like wheat before a scythe, because they lose their shield bonus against missile fire when their backs are turned. 80% or higher casualties on the enemy side is not unusual, even when no attempt to catch routers with cavalry is made whatsoever.
Vardariotai are useful in such a force because of their harassment potential -- unlike the all-horse armies I tended to favor with Byzantium before, they get used more as bait than as attackers in their own right. They're excellent for leading enemy soldiers into the guard archers' firing range, and have a good enough defense rating and charge bonus to demolish missile troops sent forward to skirmish before the main engagement. They're often critical components of the army in that capacity, since the foe has no choice but storm the guards' position when they can't effectively return missile fire.
It definitely sounds like you have a long experience of using this force.
I guess it is finetuned to your needs.
finding good and unorthodox formations is a reason why I still play custom battles from time to time.
The formation I just described is the core of a series of other formations; I listed it first because it is the most flexible, and may be adapted by the addition or subtraction of specialists, the rearrangement of soldiers, or changing the supporting units. The core formation is inappropriate in some circumstances -- here are two examples of relatively simple and versatile modifications:
A = Archers (Byzantine Guard Archers)
M = Melee Infantry (Dismounted Latinkons, Byzantine Infantry, Varangian Guard)
S = Spear Infantry (Byzantine Spearmen, Dismounted Byzantine Lancers)
C = Cavalry (Heavy -- Byzantine Lancers, Kataphractoi)
H = Cavalry (Harassers -- Skythikons, Byzantine Cavalry, Vardariotai)
X = Enemy unit
Anti-Knight Variant: the Sandwich
My basic formation, described above, is best suited to fighting infantry units with relatively low attack power -- they're slow-moving, which causes them to suffer more before melee commences, and they're not likely to slice the Guard Archers to ribbons when they finally reach close quarters. When fighting lots of heavy cavalry, the basic formation would do well to be changed:
AAAAA
CC SSSSS CC
AAAAA
Set the spears to Guard Mode, and disable skirmish mode for the rearmost rank of archers; let the front rank skirmish. Keep the front rank of archers in action as long as possible; archers are more accurate when they don't have to fire over the heads of their own soldiers, which makes each arrow count for more in the early engagement. As the enemy cavalry advance, get the front rank to melt back into the empty rank behind the spearmen, ready to serve as reinforcements after the charge comes; disable skirmish mode as soon as they're in position. The troop deployment should look like this:
CC SSSSS CC
AAAAA
AAAAA
Which presents a strong front to onrushing knights, absorbing their charge and putting your guard archers on more of an even keel if they need to bolster the line at a later stage. The archers are also free to lay down supression fire on those enemies which have not yet joined the press of melee, which lets you play on the advantage of having lots of ranged units. If your archers never get a chance to shoot, you might as well have brought along more lancers. Also, notice what happens in the event that your enemies manage to kill off your lancers:
XXXXX
CC _____ CC
AAAAA
AAAAA
They get a nice salvo of arrows full in the face. Point-blank shots are nasty. Especially cool is if you bring your cavalry around to box them in:
C C
C XXXXX C
AAAAA
AAAAA
You get one of my favorite tactics in the history of ever, Hannibal's Crescent. If they try to rout, send your cavalry back to protect your flanks and prepare the archers to start pouring arrows into their retreating backs. If they flee the field, you've won; if they rally, feed them more arrows. Unless something really weird happened, you've just about won the engagement by this point. (Not necessarily the whole battle, just the bit involving snippy horses.)
Anti-Heavy Infantry Variant: The Bursting Dam
This one's an old favorite for taking down heavy infantry, such as Dismounted Feudal Knights. It's rather like the Sandwich in its intial shape, save that the melee component is comprised of Varangian Guards:
CC AAAAA CC
MMMMM
AAAAA
Normally, proposing that archers should take the brunt of the first charge from heavy infantry would be suicidal. However, Byzantine guard archers have very good armor by archer standards, and they can take a decent beating when they have to. Their purpose here is to trip up the incoming enemy infantry, pinning them in place and possibly taking a few down. By maximizing the amount of time they stay in front, you maximize the accuracy of the arrow volleys they lob at the enemy as they close. Flat trajectories are your friend -- it's a large part of why gunpowder units are so effective. (Apart from the high attack power and armor penetration, that is. Bullets fly pretty straight, which means a fair number of them are going to hit the mark.)
Now, excellent heavy infantry won't be stopped forever by Byzantine guard archers -- Janissaries, for example. The front ranks are going to start looking a little thin, so that something like this happens:
XXXXX
CC AAAAA CC
MMMMM
AAAAA
X_XX_
CC AXAAX CC
MMMMM
AAAAA
Notice that some of the heavy infantry are now contiguous with your Varangian Guards. The Varangians can now fill the archerless breaches, which is all part of the plan; Varangians don't use shields in melee, which makes them more vulnerable in the initial charge. But when they actual crush of hand-to-hand combat begins, their armor-piercing axes are a terror on the battlefield. Bring the cavalry around to encircle the enemy formation, and get the Varangian guards to press forward. Their axes are designed to cut through this kind of foe, and the enemy has already been depleted by arrows, tired by fighting the archers, and demoralized by the sudden cavalry strike. They are, in the immortal words of Thucydides, "pwned".
You can do the same thing you've described, a lot cheaper by replacing the Guards with Horse archers, the cheap unarmored ones. But in stead of bunching every body up you spread the HA out with the heavy Infantry in the center. let the enemy see the Infantry and charge them then bring the HA in to shoot from either side. Because you are attacking from the rear flank you'll do more damage. If the enemy stops to chase the HA units then simply run away. The idea is to get the enemy moving sideways back and forth. If he does he is playing your game if he doesn't he dies anyway. Horse archer can actually do a lot damage, even against heavily armored knights especially if the horse is not armored. The Horse archers have a decided advantage against the early gun powder units because they have a much faster rate of fire. Range even outs because they can rush in and out and attack from behind
You'd be surprised how many times your Spearmen or heavy infantry end up just standing there nearly the whole battle waiting to be attacked. You just have to keep the HA unit beyond each other's range.
The Guard archers cost too much and are too valuable on city walls to use the way you've drawn it up. A group of Guard Archers inside a besieged city will slaughter any other unit in the game
H = Horse Archer individual units
BI = Byzantine Infantry/Spearmen Whatever group
EU = Enemy Unit groups
H -------> EU <--------H
H -------> EU <--------H
H -------> EU <--------H
_________BI
That's true -- Skythikons make excellent ranged attackers in their own right. My reasoning for using the Guard Archers was as follows:
1) There are half again as many Guard Archers in a stack as Horse Archers -- ten stacks of Guard Archers lay down as many arrows as fifteen stacks of Horse Archers, which does a fairly decent job of evening out the price differential.
2) In the campaign in which I first started using Guard Archers, I had a bucket of 'em laying around Acre with nothing much to do, and decided to experiment. These sorts of tactics were the eventual result, as Egypt was delighted to discover. ~;)
3) In the aforementioned campaign, money was no object and gold chevrons are stylin'.
4) I've been using Horse Archers almost exclusively for a long, long time, and decided to branch out a bit. As it happened, the Guard Archer experiment was very successful and I figured I'd give the wider community a shout-out.
So, Horse Archers are great -- but I'd never actually used Byzantine infantry units for anything, and it's neat to discover that they can pull their own weight with style.
Another way to do this would to use the horse arches on the side and the Guard Archers in the throat of the trap. With their longer range you might be able to hit the enemy from three directions.
There is also a problem, I think with with launching arrows against any heavily armored target head on. That is where they have armor and shield bonuses. I would like to see some statistics of kills by 60 foot archers loosing arrows at a group of heavy cavalry coming at them head on versus the number of kills obtained by attacking the same cavalry from behind or without the shield bonus. This is a really criticism of your strategy just a general observation. The back armor on most knight type units is 1/2 or less than the front with a shield. I wonder how much difference that makes?
Probably quite a bit -- I'll have to run some experiments and find out. Provisionally I'd say that high shield bonuses are a real problem, though they may be mitigated to a certain extent by the use of flaming arrows. Huge numbers of Guard Archers might be able to cause a rout before the enemy closes in, allowing them to strike at the less-defended backs of the heavy infantry before they rally again.
By the by, is this a decent rendition of what you meant about the Horse Archers?
A = Archers (Byzantine Guard Archers)
M = Melee Infantry
C = Cavalry (Heavy -- Byzantine Lancers, Kataphractoi)
H = Cavalry (Harassers -- Skythikons, Byzantine Cavalry, Vardariotai)
4 Harassers
4 Heavy Cavalry
10 Guard Archers
5 Melee Infantry
HHHH
CC AAAAA CC
MMMMM
AAAAA
Front archer rank is sent to skirmish, as in the Sandwich. The missile cavalry lurk in the far front, preferably under cover. Missile cavalry only begin to fire when they've got round the back or sides of the enemy infantry; ideally, they begin to shoot at the same moment as the Guard Archers. The enemy cannot turn in any direction without exposing their backs to one or the other contingent of ranged attackers, maximizing the opening damage potential. When and if they close with the Guard Archers, there'll be a sizeable cavalry force at their backs, ready to charge in and force a rout. If they charge the missile cavalry, use the steppe maneuver. If they stand still... well, that's an awful lot of arrows to sit there and take, wot?
In my experience with such armies, I've been able to win against infantry forces repeatedly through the agency of Heavy Cavalry -- swinging them around from the flank is an excellent way of inducing a rout. Routs are critical. Every instant spent out of hand-to-hand combat is a point in your favor. Routing and rallying enemies have to cross the same distance twice; your archers catch them coming and going. As such, Heavy Cavalry serve an offensive and defensive purpose: offensive to keep the Archers' ranged advantage open for as long as possible, defensive to keep the heat from settling on them too long. Guard Archers are, regrettably, ill-suited to slugging it out with the best of the best. They can pull their weight in a swordfight, but that's not their main job. Cavalry-induced routs can give your Archers valuable breathing room, reducing the final casualty count.
Yes that is more or less the idea. Though you are probably better at it than I am.
Hey everyone, its been awhile since I posted here. Just came back from Zante... erm... that might be spelt wrong lol. Anyway in my hotel I was playing as the Byzantinian Romans, damned best faction in the game :2thumbsup: :laugh4: , and the two most pestering factions I came across was Venice who kept declaring war and then wanting cease-fire's left right and center and them damned Hungarians!!! The Turks I understand becuase of the old blood fued, which rocks!! damn them lol. I need help handling the Venetians, as the Hungarians are easily held at Sofia with my Varagian Guard, they just keep throwing massive stacks of seargent spearmen with pavise crosbow men... it eventually gets too much. The missile cavalry are VERY handy, thanks romans!!! lol The tech level I'm at, military wise is up to Dismounted Byzantine Lancers so... any helpful tips are gratefully appreciated!
Thanks again!
Gizmo,
Look at my walk-through for the Byzantines.
I find, especially if you auto-resolve that the Byzantine troops do not match up against the Venetians very well. However I describe how to mollify them long enough to take out the Turks and by then you have an over whelming economic advantage and the ability to build Byzantine Swordmen or Dismounted Lancers
Here are some basic tricks
1. Marry Anna the princess to the Hungarian royal heir at the beginning of the game. Alliances based upon marriage last longer than those based upon diplomacy.
2. Don't take Sophia the Hungarians will fight to get it and don't build a port in Corinth until you are already to go to war with th Venetians because they WILL Blockade it only a turn or two after you complete it.
3. Don't get serious with the Venetians until you've taken out or about taken out the Turks. Let them blockade you and make peace. Only worry if they send an army. If you've taken Durazo make sure you have a big stack, even if it is militia in the town. It will discourage them from sieging it to fullfill a mission.
3. Don't try and beat the Venetians in one few swoop but in a series of three or four wars. The first time they start a war take Iraqlion and possibly Ragusa then make peace and build. Let them start another war take another province and so on until they are gone. Once you get hold of Ragusa and get it producing troops turn Corinth into a city.
4. The key to breaking the Venetians is actually Ragusa. They have no other castle. If you take it they have real problems. Without the heavy cavalry that they can build in Ragusa your troops are a match for them.
5. I don't normally keep Venice. There are too many cities within a turns march of it. It also is a very attractive target. I exterminate the population, and sell any building that can be sold then give it to a nation such as the Danish or Portuguese I'll offer to swap it to them for trade rights, map information and 500 gold. They will almost never attack you and end up being a buffer between you and the Milanese and HRE. Indeed, I don't like N. Italy. I'll sometime go in there and take all the cities and and then sell everything and then let the rebels have them all. You'd be surprised how many times no body takes them back for 25 or 30 turns.
From my own experience in writing a Byznatium AAR, I thought I'd share a few impressions. Of course these have been mentioned before.
1. Ally with the Hungarians. Anna Comneneus can get you a marriage alliance a few turns in. It's a good investment as you don't have to worry about the northern frontier for a while and can focus on the east (Turks) and west (Venetians).
2. Durazzo is a pit. It's unwalled, of limited financial value, takes forever to build up and is often the cause of a war with Venice or Sicily. It's a $%#-hole but everyone seems to want it. Avoid it unless you have plans to expand further into the Balkans. The same could be said, to a lesser extent, of Trebizond. It's out in the middle of nowhere, it's really not connected to the rest of the Empire and it can be the cause of an early conflict with the Turks. However, if you want to take on the Turks, it's a troop center close to Yerevan and might be useful to open up a second front on their Anatolian settlements.
3. Nicosia and Rhodes (if you take it) should be converted to towns to take advantage of trade. Corinth too perhaps as it is not well placed for a Castle.
4. Sofia is key, beat the Hungarians to it. It helps establish a Danube frontier and gives you a castle on your border.
5. Historically speaking the Turks are your major enemy, but the Venetians seem to beat them to the punch. Maybe it's the difficulties of marching through Anatolia, or the fact the Turks are busy picking off rebels at Adana or Mosul, but the Venetians seem to attack Byzantium first.
6. Having a navy is good idea. I have fleets centered in the Aegean and the Adriatic (when I expanded). This allows for picking off Iraklion and moving troops to active fronts. Also fire ships kick butt. Navies can also be used to close land bridges in case you don't want avaricious Crusaders wandering across your empire. I also use ships to shuttle forces to and from Nicaea and Constantinople, as the land connection between the two adds a few turns of travel time.
7. Vardariotai are your friend. They are an advanced HA unit that you can build from the beginning. They're also decent in a pinch for melee, and excel at rout pursuit. I didn't like or know how to use HAs when I started but I quickly gained an affinity for them after getting the Vards. This is good because your beginning infantry and regular cav are ordinary. Oh, Trebizond archers, also available from the beginning, are nifty as well with long range. You may not be able to slug it out toe to toe with the western powers, but you've got stand off power. Many times I rained death on advancing forces and as soon as they hit my main line, they routed.
I agree with all of OverKnight's points, with only minor adjustments. Sound advice, sir, and I'm enjoying your AAR.
My current campaign is very similar. For instance;
1. Marriage alliance with Hungary (with subsequent small donations) has lasted quite a while AND provided an ally against Venice...instead of another enemy.
2. Durazzo is indeed a pit, but it's a great stepping stone to Ragusa! And once you have that castle, you've hamstrung the Venetian weenies! *maniacal laughter here*
3. Agree 100%. Every island and peninsula should be a money-making city. The Empire needs only a few strategic castles in the early and mid-game.
4. Yes! Sofia should be the huge rock fortress that Constantinople hides behind! Take it first, build it up, and never relinquish it! While it should be able to withstand seige after seige, another option is to meet the invaders in the field, before the seige, and let the Vard do what they do best.
5. Venice will attack. I just accept it and plan on an assault of Ragusa and then Iraklion. ALLY WITH THE TURKS (I know, I know...wash my mouth out). But it gives time to build a bit and believe me, those dirty Turks will betray you...just like you want.
Here's how I did it: Like OverKnight, I sent Prince John to Smyrna, then Rhodes...then Adana! Sadly, he was lost in the assault on Antioch, but the point here is Adana - it's a nice way to attack the back-stabbing Turks from multiple sides. As soon as they betrayed me, forces marched from Adana, Smyrna, and Nicaea.
6. Navies. Yup.
7. Guns don't kill people. Vards do. These guys are just too good. Flying purple people eaters.
8. Additional point here. Ikoner's Studios are very helpful. Build them and watch your conversion rates climb.
Only halfway through this campaign and I'm already a member of the I-heart-Byzantines Club.
i like to keep corinth as a castle.just build a lot of fram at corinth and send your highest level chivalry governor to corinth.once you can't build frams any more build the two troops building you think you will need the most.all ways build the upgrade to next level as you can get it.by doing this you can get dismount latinkon at trun 54 or mount latinkon.did this in my lastest byzantine campaign.i got both dismount latinkon and varangain guard at trun 54.i argee adana is a must have, the turks like backstabing you by attacking adana.
Actually I find Corinth quite a suitable for a castle. Especially during the first 40-50 turns. Byzantium's navy is at least on par if not superior to nearby powers - which makes shipping troops around, feasible and Corinth acts like a hub (at least in my games) for staging and ferrying troops very quickly to various parts of the Empire (it can quickly reinforce byzantine posessions in the Adriatic - if you went that route - or protect important spots of the empire (constantinople, for example), it can be used for invasions across the Mediteraneean, etc. I use naval transport A LOT when playing the Byzantines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellraiser
Corinth is useful at the start of the game since it is the base from which you can launch attacks on the Italian Peninsula and Sicily with great ease from their. It is a vital base. Do not count on Thessaloniki for defending it since there is a bridge right under Durazzo. Later this castle might become useless, so convert it into a city if you still can!
Things to know when playing as Byzantium
You are Christian but not Catholic. This has an up side as well as a down side.
You can not call crusades but if you take a crusade target the crusade will end!
The Pope can not call a crusade against you, but as you are not Catholic, Crusading armies can attack you and your cities on the way to their target. If you are strong enough take the target first, otherwise stay out of their way.
Vardariotai are the strongest starting unit you have and should be the best HA in the game, but it doesn‘t seem to perform as well as some of the others. Still it is what you have to work with and you can win with it. If you are new to Horse Archers just remember to use all your arrows before you fight. Also set them on wide spacing and string them out to only two ranks deep. Use them on the flanks to form a kill sack. Engage and shoot the enemy from the rear when ever possible. If someone chases a unit out of line send a second to hit him from behind.
Most of your easy access units will come from castles so if you want spear or archers, go to the castles first.
Archers are your strongest suite vs. the eastern factions and most of the western ones so learn how to use them to best effect, whether you are using horse or infantry.
Exploit
When dealing with the emerging factions (Mongols et al) forts with only and agent inside are no-go areas for them. I discovered this when trying to get them to occupy them so I could have a turkey shoot with artillery…they avoid empty forts and you can use them as bottle necks to separate or channel them or just block access to an area. Just have something behind them or they can‘t move over them to bypass your traps. Placing them in front of bridges or fords will usually make them go elsewhere.
I'm deep into my first campaign as the Byzantines, and although it was pretty smooth sailing at first, now things are looking not so good, mostly due to my bad judgement. My game was pretty crazy, with the Turks doing nothing, Poland going on an early crusade and moving their capital to southern Anatolia, and me ignoring the advice of almost everyone in this thread and driving into northern Italy, central Europe, and the Balkans. My >90% HA cavalry armies ate the Venetians alive at the beginning, and their faction is now destroyed. Now I've crippled Hungary, taken Rome and relegated the Papal States to the most pathetic horde ever (mostly just a navy), crippled Milan by taking everything but the city on Corsica, and taken a substantial chunk out of the HRE. The only problem is that, as you might have guessed, every catholic faction hates me and wants my head on a pole :skull: . So there's 5 catholic factions warring against me now that France and Denmark have joined the fray. I made an alliance (by princess) with Russia, and even they randomly broke it and began attacking. And the worst part is, of course, the Mongols just took Antioch and are creeping up on my back doorstep, which is poorly defended (the Turks are weak, remember?). My cities are full of unrest, because they are deep in catholic territory and filled with spies from about 7 factions, so if I take my sizeable garrisons out, they will revolt. Now, I'm starting to run under the line with even my substantial economy because of the Black Plague and the strain of maintaining cities.
I figure once I lose or give up I'll try an alternative strategy. :sweatdrop:
If the Mongols came in through Antioch you're fine. There are two "bridges" where troops can walk from the western to the eastern side of the Aegean: the Hellespont and the Dardanelles. Block both with fleets and the Mongols won't be able to cross. You might lose any territory you have on the eastern shore, but you can certainly stop them from getting to the western shore en masse. I'm not sure about the later patches, but the Mongols in the earlier versions were never big naval invaders. They'd build the occasional dhow but I never saw them load troops on them to go anywhere; they'd just march where they wanted to go.
yeah I've found that field armies of 4 Var Guard,6 Guard archers 1,or 2 generals and the rest Vardariotai.I've had some good results with this against Russia and Hungary,as the crossbowmen will follow my light calvary half-way across the map,then I turn and annihilate them,but on another note,do not make war on the papacy. I made the mistake of doing this since I was getting tired of them landing stacks on my doorstep every turn,now I have half the italian penisula trying to re-take Rome which i took away from them,the crusades are next..
Well, crusades are something you don't need to worry about, as it is impossible to declare a crusade vs either Byzantium or Russia.Quote:
Originally Posted by oz_wwjd
with all due respect to the legion idea above. I'd suggest a good open field formation simply consists of Vards. There is a great guide in this forum.They are easy to acquire in numbers building up there numbers from the start onwards and they utterly decimate with few casualties and extremely favourable capture numbers in most situations and have supreme mobility. Obviously this army is of great deal less utility in settlement fights (although you could handily defeat siege sallys) but I think thats is a role to be filled by and large by a mostly infantry army.
Nice tips guys i shall try them in my next byzantium game.
I tried a different approach than the most posters suggested here, i nmy last Byz game (hard difficulty setting)
Most of you guys agree that Turks must be taken out ASAP. Generally I couldn't agree more but this time my plan was to let them live and pose a significant threat to the Mongols.
1. Married the princess to a hungarian family member - this is an excellent move indeed. It secured me an everlasting peace on the northern flank (past turn 80+, relations took a slight dive but I manage to keep them at 'good' by gifting them $ 200 every now and then).
2. First steps were to secure Sofia (kept as castle), Smyrna (city), Rhodes.
I did not expand at all north of the Black sea or west of it. I let Trebizond to the turks as my goal was to have a chance at preserving peace with them.
3. Then the Venetians thought the Mediteraneean wasn't big enough for the two of us and attacked.
Having few troops to maintain and focusing primarily on developing cash producing and pop growth buildings, fending them off was not an issue as the lands near Constantinople, Sofia, Thessa are good merc recruiting grounds. Mercs were used to repel the invaders and then disbanded.
Took the opportunity to capture Iraklion, long thought by the Roman Emperor as a thorn in the Empire's back. This was mandatory as one of my key tactic was developing and maintaining complete naval supremacy in the eastern Med. and Crete provides spotting and later a powerful naval base.
Obviously, the Pope went nuts on me because I dared challenge his beloved venetians and since those times, I've never had him better than 'abysmal' and 'terrible'.
The venetians occasionally kept sending troops into my lands but were repelled swiftly by Byz mounted warriors pouring from Sofia. Many battles were fought at sea but the Byzantine superiority was overwhelming - stacks of 5-6 powerful fireships sunk everything in sight that had the hated red venetian flag up.
Watchtowers were errected all over the Empire and especially on shores/islands so nobody could sneak any ship past my navy.
4. Relations with the Turks are generally very bad but no military actions took place (80+ turns). It is maybe the Turks have a deep respect for the military superpower ('supreme') and economic powerhouse the Empire has become.
5. Byzantines had in mind to acquire real estate in Palestine and Lebannon but this had to come earlier than expected because the enemy of the true faith (venetians that is) crusaded and took Jerusalem and managed to carve a little Latin Kingdom there by annexing Jeddah as well.
So, a mighty fleet carrying the Emperor himself with a large host of the most combat seasoned greek troops set sail to Antioch (rebel at that time) - think it as an Orthodox Crusade :)
The Emperor captured Antioch but the presence of so many Christian forces in the Middle East upset the Egyptians eventually who chose to declare war on...Byzantines, obviously instead of Venetians :)
Long anticipating this treachery, the Emperor ordered the castle from Cyprus to draft as many troops as possible to support the mid east effort. Aided by reinforcements from Cyprus, the Greeks quickly seized the town of Damascus and the fortress of Acre. Jerusalem, held by the most fierce enemy of the empire - Venetians - was in Emperor's grasp.
Preparations were made and the Holy City fell to the Greeks in one swift assault. Jerusalem, as an oddity, was ordered to build taverns, inns and was to become the main spies and assassins training center of the Empire.
The rich lands in the Mid East were in the hands of greek merchants and this, together with an unseen economic and cultural development across the Empire, made the Greeks the most wealthy power in the game.
The next steps were obvious - Egyptians lost Gaza to a land assault and Alexandria and Cairo to amphib assault. The last remaining city (down south of Cairo) was taken eventually and Egyptians entered history :)
The same fate awaited the remnants of the Latin venetian Kingom in Jeddah. following the loss of their Mid East holdings, crushed at sea by huge stacks (8-10 ships per stack) of XP-ed byzantine ships, having their very home port of Venice blockaded, being attacked by other catholic factions as well, the Venetians sued for peace (75+ turns of war took a heavy toll on them). The Emperor graciously agreed in exchange for the city of Durazzo, which the Venetians agreed to cede. The peace would last for 3-4 turns, Venetians resuming their aggressive actions by blockading a port with some ships quickly destroyed by the greeks. Kinda odd behaviour I may say...
Sicily tried some moves against the empire , mainly at sea but were retaliated brutally - they lost a lot of ships and the castle of Tripoli, a clear indication that if you mess with the bull, you'll get the horns...
I feel like, any western power, if they got the chance, will try to do something ill to the Greeks...keeping good relations with them seems an Utopia at this stage.
Meanwhile, the long term greek strategy paid off...Mongols invaded near Tbilisi and the Turks quickly found themselves involved in an unexpected war with an enemy that knows no mercy...
Surprisingly, the Mongols , for several turns now, were unable to seize any of the Turkish or rebel settlements in the East, laying sieges and eventually lifting them for no apparent reason...So they decided to head north, to the vast steppes of Ukraine and Russia. This fits my plans because now I can take on the Turks, who already have outlived their purpose :)
As for the Mongols...I killed some of their commanders (the Big Bad Khan included) just for fun...and they will soon come across Novgorod and Poland, which should keep them busy for a while.
As the game has played out till now, I have extremely good chances to win following this strategy. I dunno though, if I try the same strategy again, if the Turks will remain so passive. I have this strong feeling that if you leave certain provinces alone (Adana, Trebizond and cities in the eastern mountains) they don;t think you as the no#1 priority...
I found the most useful unit while playing as Byzantium to be,
Byzantine Cavalary and Trebizond Archers.
The reason is that they are not that expensive for what you get. Byzantine cavalry is capable for taking out archer units, and for riding around and en-circling the enemy's melee units. For my infanty-line i use a mix of Spearmen and Byzantine Infantry.
Trebizond archers are also very useful because they are inexpensive, and can be utilized as 'melee' units when the situation is getting a bit desperate.
Usually my byzantine army would be as follows.
H/A H/A H/A H/A H/A H/A
A A A A
S S S S S S
General (and two units of Byzantine infantry/ or Cav)
I am new to MTW2 but since I got the game I have played 4-5 campaign games as the Byzantines up to ~1250-1300AD.
I followed several suggestions from this forum with very good results up until the Mongols arrive.
In every campaign game I have played the Mongols have proven to be unbeatable and they have crushed all the armies I have sent against them.
I should mention that I mostly auto resolve battles (takes too long on my computer and I am still horrible at it).
I have tried various diplomatic and military strategies to avoid becoming their target but they have all failed. (I have given border regions to the Pope and HRE hoping the Mongols would go for them and leave me alone, have built castles with archers and missile cavalry and spearmen, etc.) I suspect they are programmed to attack the strongest faction or the faction with the most regions and that usually happens to be Byzantium in my games.
I was looking for any suggestions from the veterans how do best deal with the Mongols in auto resolve mode?
I have used one of the cheats to add money and was able to beat them back but I had to stack 3-4 armies with good generals against one of theirs in every battle.
(I have not gotten as far as the Timurids but I hate to even think about that).
Autoresolving battles with Mongols can prove to be very costly, but if you DO choose to do so, do it with overwhelming numbers of cheap trash troops (think acrher/spear/Cavlry militia) at a ratio of at least 4:1. Expect to lose all that trash but make a sizable dent in mongol stacks. Use your top quality troops at sieges, bridges and (even better) unbridged river crossings. All that Mongol heavy cavalry amounts to little more than horsemeat if caught by Varangians in the middle of the river.
Never ever use autoresolve against the Mongols if the army contains their original troops. The autoresolve function is basically a number crunch. It's apparently heavily weighted in favor of numbers and experience. The first is usually a disadvantage for cavalry, as mounted units are smaller in size, but all the original Mongol invasion troops have something like 6 xp! The result is that you will almost always be crushed if you use the computer to resolve it.
Now, if you cannot fight the battles out yourself for whatever reason, then I have to agree with RVG. Build your armies as full stacks of big infantry units like spear militia or Byzantine Spearmen, keep multiple stacks together, and then resolve it. You'll take horrific losses, but those troops are pretty cheap to replace, and you at least have a decent chance of winning.
If you can fight out the battles, then the Byzantines can give the Mongols a serious challenge on the field. I've beaten them in an open field battle with an army of 2 generals, 2 kataphractoi, and 16 assorted horse archers, but there's no way to fight that battle without losing a lot of troops. It works out better if defending a bridge or a ford.
Has anyone ever tried simply being a vassal to the Papal States (for a very hefty fee)? That way, the Pope is charged with "protecting" you and any attack on you would be an attack on him. This should lead to immunity from attacks from the Catholic factions, unless they want to be excommunicated.
Then make every crusading Catholic faction (except maybe Venice) who passes through Byzantine territory on their way to the Middle East your ally. Then you can use all of their armies to recover all the lost territory of the original Eastern Roman Empire.
Any thoughts?
this my first campaign for a while, i have decided to consolidate the Balkans by eliminating factions which attack me, in the 60s and Venice is dead, the Vampires are soon to follow, them i shall halt on the rivers which are a natural frontier. at that point it is time to consolidate religion, mop up rebels, build some forts. sack-cash from Budapest Venice Iconium 'n Vienna is keeping the old empire ticking over nicely. religious unrest is a problem as the latins are conquered. the frontier is locked into a permanent state of religious strife. things will be better when Venice attains 40% 'Doxy.
vards are so good, they are so agile, and even a basic infantry force of spear and trebizond bow will win with these hot horsemen nippin' round the flanks and carving up the enemys' arse from that oblique angle old boy. Have at 'em lads!
however horsemen do sufer with auto resolve, the basileus lacks lancersin the early game.
naval dominance is vital. seal off the aegean, the black sea and the adriatic. if a hostile fleet gets in then you can play ping-pong with the piratical scumbags and bounce them from one fleet to the next until they are truly scuppered!
thanks for the advice. I am now able to fight the Mongols and sometimes win. I've played several campaigns as the Byzantines and the HRE. I've tried different strategies of fending off the Mongols and Timurids (giving border regions to the Pope and other factions right before they arrive, or leaving the Turks around so they have to fight them first) but it seems that that no matter what i do they are simply programmed to go after the stronger/richest(?) faction at the time. As the Byzantines they came to Antioch and into Asia Minor. As the HRE they went to Kiev and came into central Europe. Of course, they never accept a ceasefire. Has anyone found a clever trick of keeping them at arms length without having their treasury drained by the endless wars?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quillan
I love this game but I am getting a bit disenchanted because it always comes to "how badly will the Mongols/Timurids beat you up?".
River crossings. My first campaign, as the Byzantines, I held the Mongols off on the bridges. I owned Iasi, which I had as a city. The army standing on the bridge consisted of 6 units of Byzantine Infantry, 4 units of Byzantine Guard Archers, 1 trebuchet, 1 general, and 8 assorted horse archers. I lined up 3 units of infantry across the edge of the bridge, with 3 more directly behind them, and all 6 in guard mode. When the battle started, they'd advance directly to the edge of the bridge from the deployment line. The foot archers would line up on a hill where they could fire down onto the bridge. The horse archers would do the same. The treb was set to fire rotting cows, and I'd wait until the Mongols started crossing to begin firing.
I'd always manage to eventually land a dead cow in the middle of the bridge, which meant every Mongol unit would be affected by it. I used the horse archers to chase down any routers that came through my side of the bridge, and didn't pursue any routers across the bridge until the battle was won. In some cases the Mongols would have 2-3 stacks, so there's be a pause after I'd broken the first army but the next hadn't yet arrived, and then I'd switch off the lead infantry.
After the battle was over, I'd use the nearby city and fortress to replenish losses.
Yeah when I played them I won 60% of me battles using vards to harass the enemy all the way up the field,then finishing it off with a rain of arrows from the Guard archers,plus a calv charge from behind,with my vardf if needed.
I think I found something about the Mongols (it may have been mentioned before). It seems that if you have four full stacks close together the Mongols seem to too timid to attack. I had four full stacks of varying quality near Nicea. As long as I had them close together the Mongols kept going back and forth but never attacked. As soon as I moved two of the stacks to defend against the Timurid jihad against Constantinople the Mongols attacked. I put the stacks back and they seemed to shy away from attacking Nicea. If you wait them out long enough they will slowly decay in strength so you can pick them off one stack at a time. It's a "containment" policy but it seemed to work this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by oz_wwjd
Here's a question: had anyone has Constantinople rebel within the first 20 or 30 turns? I've played as the byzzies many times but my most recent game is the first I've ever seen it do that,and it hurt my wallet something severe,at one point I was - 11118 florins,until I re-took and sacked it,then I took the turkish citadel of Caesarea and exterminated that,so my budget's looking better,if my damn cities would stop trying to kick me out as soon as I moved the tax rate off "low".
I suspect spies in my cities.
Hoping that some public buildings will improve them to the point where I can start making some cash now,as the Venetians have attempted to invade 4 times,and been kicked out 4 times,also hoping that the alliances I have with the polish,Hungarians and milanese will keep them tied up for a bit.
I never had Constantinople rebel. It is usually a cash cow for me. You have to keep building farms, trade buildings, and also barracks etc. and maintain a good garrison.
One thing I do is build a couple of fleets and close off the straits on both sides (Aegean and Black Sea). That stops all merchants, diplomats and foreign armies from crossing over to Asia Minor and causing trouble (unless I allow them).
As for the Turks I found that you can easily destroy them in the first few turns if you take Iconium quickly and then Ceasarea as soon as possible. But you may want to keep the Turks alive as a buffer against the Mongols. If you take Iconium and then offer them a ceasefire in exchange for Trabezon there is a high probability they will give it to you without a fight.
Hello!
I am in the midst of a VH/VH campaign as the Byzantine Empire. I decided to do this campaign with the goal being to reconquer the Roman Empire. It was very very tough to get were I am now @ around the 1280's. I've wrote down the basics of what I done. I should point out I am writing this out of recent memory without anything written down so I could have forgot a few little details. This is also a big read which is why its in spoil tags.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read: