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Quote Originally posted by Emperor Theodoripiklos IV:
Aha....First they took NAtive lands , then they took Mexican land , then SPanish colonies and then they started to think that they had the bloody right to stick their nose in other lands (just like imperial europe)
uuhhhh A madman who is a danger to the world.
You know , besids the Americans and Saudi nobility i dont think much of the world gives a shnuck about sadam and his "Weapons of mass destruction"
Its just Bush turning attention away from home (economic and social security issues )and spreading that nonsence of a world tyrant as dangerus as hitler http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Using the Fear of American people after 9/11 for economic and military expansion abroad is just plain sick.
But no more of that...this is about Byzantinum and OttomanTurks here and to go to the roots of this...
In history the Byz navy allways kickd the turks arse as did the Venitian navy and the Spanish and the Maltis navy[/QUOTE]
Maibe you are right. after all the turks are coming from a mountainous area. The greeks, italians and other old mediterranian nations have thousands of years of seafaring tradition so they must have "kicked the turks arse".
But i still don't know what happened whith the byz fleet on 29 may 1453.
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Ah i can tell you http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
During the Siege the Byz navy did manage to keep the upper hand to the end , first because of the Byz ship design which was much superior to most Navies at the time and their long naval history.
Anyhow after the Walls of Constantinople where breeched and the city was about to fall , the Byz navy along with the Italian ships started taking refugies(among them 300 byz soldiers , the resat perished to the last) from the city on board and fought their way out.
This way most of the LAte Byz navy was intact even after Byzantium was vanqiushed.
Some i think remaind with the Venetians as Mercenaris others became Raiders wreacking havoc on Turkish shipping.
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Grifman
Quote No, since the Ottoman Empire no longer existed as a legal entity, there was no one to hold to the treaty - they legally represented a govt - not a people - govts are legal entities, not people. The Turkish Republic was not bound by any decision made by the prior non-existent govt. The Turkish Republic effectively seceeded from the Ottoman Empire - it was not the same entity, any more than the Confederate States were bound by a treaty signed by the United States.[/QUOTE]
You're just trying to manuever your own around this without actually understanding what I'm saying. Sure the Turkish Republic wasn't bound by anything the Sultan did but, and read this carefully, the Turkish Republic was not set up until AFTER the "war of liberation". So the war was actually in violation of the agreement that the Turks signed. Why you keep ignoring that is very peculiar considering the historical evidence that you can find on any Turkish website.
Quote In their march towards Ankara the Greek army engaged in numerous atrocities, burning Turkish villages, murdering civilians, raping women. Those are documented facts by foreign observers. I can provide names and dates of the the actual reports if you care -and actual quotes from them.[/QUOTE]
I already knowledged this to be true, As the Turks did for centuries themselves. Sometimes people take bad lessons and then forget what they were fighting for in the first place.
Quote And, yes, there were still Turks living in Greece, as there were Greeks living in Turkey - but both oppressed and discriminated against the other , and over the years there had been massive immigration back to their respective homelands. Both were guilty. And given Greek behavior towards Turks during their occupation of parts of Asia Minor, I don't expect many Turks would still want to be around. And I really doubt Greece was ready or prepared or willing to assimilate millions of Turks living in Asia Minor as citizens.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
Quote Yes, I've seen it - and have done more homework than you have.[/QUOTE]
LOL. How do you know how much homework I've done? Let's just say I did more but you're a close second. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Quote So what was the Greek army doing invading central Anatolia which was well outside of their zone of occupation? Would they really have withdrawn from Ankara after capturing it?[/QUOTE]
What was the U.S. Army doing invading Nazi Germany? That's where the war was. What are you doing invading Tyrolia when you didn't even want to be there? You were forced into invading to stop the war, right? Same thing.
Quote No, that isn't the topic. The topic is how Greeks ignore their own atrocities against the Turks while lamenting the atrocities committed against themselves.[/QUOTE]
Who ignores them? I've never met one single Greek that ignored them. Apparently you don't know many Greeks.
Quote Armenian and Kurdish sufferings are not the topic. But to allay your concern, I do think they should have gotten their own homeland - but that is hardly relevant to Greek atrocities against the Turks. One does not justify the other - so why do you keep bringing up Turkish crimes when I bring up Greek ones. Do you think one justifies the other? If not, then why bring it up?[/QUOTE]
I'm bringing it to show you the consequence of having left Turkey intact and that the war in the '20's would have had a more positive impact on the people of Asia Minor if the Greeks had won. Do you doubt that? Do you doubt that Christians winning would have been better than the Muslim's winning?
Quote Yes, but hardly relevant to Greek atrocities against Turks in 1920-22. Irrelevant to the topic being discussed.[/QUOTE]
It's relevant to Turkish atrocities. Sorry but you're not in charge of setting the discussion. You're the one that brought up the Greek atrocities but you're unwilling to discuss Turkish atrocities? How is that being fair and balanced?
Quote You claim to pray for my soul as a Christian (presumably) at the end of this post, but your justifying Greek atrocities by pointing to Turkish ones is hardly a Christian act.[/QUOTE]
I'm not justifying any such thing. Why are you missing this point? I'm explaining to you why things happened the way they did. Can you understand the difference?
Quote Good, some progress here. First off, read some history from a Turkish perspective and not Greek and you'll see what Turks think[/QUOTE]
I told you already that I have, and that I visit a Turkish forum where Turks discuss history and politics all the time. Sadly, these people are living in the past and spend alot of time in anti-Greek, anti-Armenian, anti-Kurd, anti-EU, and sometimes anti-U.S. rhetoric. So stop repeating the same nonsense over and over.
Quote Yes, you did, quit plainly. Maybe you didn't mean it, but when I mentioned Greek atrocities against Turks in the Greek War of Independence your EXACT response was "in a war of independence, anything goes . . ." Therefore I will accept your latest statement as a recanting of this statement. You now appear to be moderating your stance a bit[/QUOTE]
Just because you misunderstood what I said originally doesn't mean I'm moderating what I said. "Anything goes" means that bad things happen on all sides. These things can not be justified. But understanding what happened is not the same thing as agreeing with those things. That's the difference.
Quote First off, I didn't twist anything. YOU said "anything goes", I didn't. Secondly, I am not an apologist for Turkish crimes, as that is not the topic and as I have clearly indicated above in responses to your specific questions.[/QUOTE]
The mere fact that you brought up the whole "Greek atrocities" stuff and you refuse to discuss Turkish atrocities makes me wonder what exactly you're trying to accomplish here. If you're trying to say Greeks committed atrocities in that war, then so what? We already know that. But when I mention to you that the Turks did the same and worse for hundreds of years, including in that war, you seem entirely disinterested. Yes, two wrongs don't make a right but at the same time you have to "understand" why things happened the way they did. In doing so, it doesn't mean that the crimes were OK.
I seriously hope you understand what I'm telling you this time because I'm getting tired of repeating it.
Quote Somehow you confuse my attribution of atrocities to the Greeks and my condemnation of them as my being accepting of Turkish crimes. Apparently your logic fails you because one does not logically follow the other. I can and do condemn both sides here - but you are not defending the Turks but the Greeks - so debating Turkish crimes with you wouldn't be much of an issue now, would it? But until your latest change, you appeared to be an apologist for Greek crimes. So who should be ashamed?[/QUOTE]
That's nuts. I never apologized for Greek crimes. I was trying to explain to you why they happened. That's why I brought up Turkish crimes but you keep insisting that those crimes are "irrelevant".
Quote As a Christian myself, I think you would be wise to abstain from your self righteousness. In the New Testament Jesus rarely condemned anything or anyone more than the Pharisees and their attitude of self righteousness. I also believe that Jesus is my only hope of salvation, not someone as presumptuous as you. Given your attitude and your certainty of my final destination, I really doubt that your prayers will have any impact on where I end up.[/QUOTE]
Jesus also mentioned that you should remove the log from your eye before looking for one in my eye. If you're going to bring up Greek crimes then you should be prepared to deal with Turkish ones as well. Only then can you understand why things happened the way they did.
And the truth is that I believe that if the Greeks had not committed those crimes in that war, God would have given them what once belonged to them. So for having veered from the Faith, they paid the price of losing Constantinople once again.
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Quote Originally posted by Emperor Theodoripiklos IV:
Looks like the DEvs are Greek http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif[/QUOTE]
Actually, after Manzikert, the Byzantines were still a very powerful force. But that battle greatly demoralized them and they never used their forces confidently again. I mean, when the Crusaders took over the region of Palestine (not the city), they did so with only a handful of men. Something that the Byzantines could have done with great ease. But at that time, the Byzantines were in a "seige mentality" so they were unable to mentally commit themselves to expanding the empire.
While the Seljuks were strong at first, they quickly lost their cohesive structure and their military was never a truly organized and efficient fighting force. With any real motivation, the Byzantines could have won any conflict with the Seljuks. That's the missing ingredient. And in MTW, you as the player have an over-abundance of that. That's why it's easy to wipe out the Turks.
Quote Anyhow the past is the past and now we got the EU http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Watch out World[/QUOTE]
Yes, so in a sense, the Greeks conquered Europe once again. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Give them a few years and the Greeks will be running the EU, then they can change the name of it to the "Byzantine Empire" and that will make it, mission accomplished. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
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And the mighty Austrians too. So the captial will be ...oh...Vienna? or Innsbruck?. So Europe will be divided into Germany, Austria and Byzantium. I reserve Italy, The northern Balkans, the czech and slavik republics along with hungary for Austrian domination.
Gues Germany can have France and Poland...again. And greece gets the rest of the Balkans and Asia Minor. Now the real problem do the Greeks even want to step into the mess known as Israel...ugh.
You can all guess where my capital city is in the game. InnsBruck!!! My hometown.
Remeber I'm only one Austrian, the rest of the country is a bunch of peace loving hippies now. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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"samishika wa nai shitte irukara saigo wa itsumo hitori to"
"I'm not lonely Because I know I'll be Alone at the end"
email me at: Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
