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I never have the timer on either. I think it's a silly idea that if you hide long enough, you win the battle! Now if it was something like, if the timer expires before there's contact, your defensive force secretly retreats to the castle or another province without anybody winning or losing.
I play with the timer off. This can create a challenge if the enemy has a cavalry archer unit and you don't have cavalry yet. It can be hard to chase them down and corner them or drive them off the battlefield.
Conversely, with the timer on, it's too easy if you have a cavalry archer unit to just run from the enemy and "win" the battle by avoiding the enemy--even a fairly large army if they don't have cavalry.
In a battle where the enemy had loads of reinforcements i would usually try to chase the enemy most of the way to the back of the map then if im defender choose a hill close by or if i am attacker wait back for the enemy to bring thier army out as on then i would attack.
I would find after killing thier first enemy if they were coming from all over the back of the map and i was trying to fight lots of little skirmishes i would lose more troops
The timer i usually didn't use, though i think it made attacking a bit more intrestng, especially if they had a bi army there.
That's why the Benny Hill code is in the game to prevent that tactic from working, although, it was modified to be not as effective when Mongol Invasion was released. The Benny Hill code is not in effect if the ranged unit still has ammo. It's a non issue for me since I simply don't use that exploit, and the AI doesn't do it. I've gone back to playing with the timer on because it makes attacking harder. The idea behind the timer was to simulate having to win the battle before sundown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
I guess it wouldn't make much of a difference whether I used the timer now or not. I tend to be aggressive on the battlefield in SP, whether attacking or defending. I find that the AI does better when you attack. If I wait for it to come to me, attacks tend to be poorly coordinated and it's usually easy to repulse them unless I'm significantly outnumbered or have units that don't counter the enemy units well.
I wonder where the idea came from that battles shouldn't extend beyond nightfall. Surely armies didn't just pack up and wait til dawn, or go home if it got dark? Granted, it's just a movie, but in Kagemusha a battle after sundown is illustrated. Can any history buffs comment about this in general--battles extending beyond nightfall throughout history etc.?
Hello Masamune,
Nightfall and bad wheather conditions are used, at least for manoeuvres and raids.
Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen used both in their Kawanakajima campaigns.
Oda Nobunaga killed Imagawa Yoshimoto at Okehazama during a bad thunderstorm.
Night attacks are great, they don't even have to be large scale or directly effective: you'll deprive the defenders/other camp of the needed sleep. A worn out enemy is easier to defeat the next day (your own main army being rested).
I can't tell you stats, sorry.
The 4th Battle of Kawanakajima did not take place at night.Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
The Battle of Okehazama took place after an afternoon thunderstorm.
Didn't the 4th Battle of Kawanakajima took place on hachimanpara(sp?) after the morning fog cleared?
Though I think TosaInu is talking about nighttime maneuvers. Shingen maneuvered during the night to position himself where he thought he could cut off and destroy a routed Kenshin.
Kenshin himself moved off the mountain under cover of darkness. Though I wonder why he moved off at all. He had height advantage and was equal in numbers against the detachment sent to assault him.
But if he's trying to kill Shingen, then maybe I guess...
Also during I think the 1st Battle, Shingen launched nightraids against Kenshin's rear when he moved too deep into Shinano, forcing him to withdraw.
But night battles do not happen that often. There are many examples of night raids, and a good night raid against an unprepared enemy could end the battle right then and there.
However to my knowledge, the only real night battles are where one side catch the other completely by surprise (and there aren't that many of these). There isn't really night battles where two armies form up to engage each other in the normal head-on and flanking maneuvers because it's too hard to co-ordinate movement at night.
Hello Parallel Pain,
The epitome was fought between 6am and 12 at Hachimanbara at the Kawanakajima plain near the Saigawa and Chikumagawa rivers indeed.
The Takeda plan was roughly that a small force would drive Uesugi off the Saijosan hill (this was a night manoeuvre known as operation Woodpecker, 12,000 men).
The Uesugi forces would panick and rout, cross the Chikumagawa river and run home. The Takeda main body was originally on the other riverbank (known to Kenshin), but Shingen expected a rout/retreat along the opposite bank. And so the main Takeda forces forded the river at night. This mainbody would hit the routing/retreating army very hard.
Kenshin had plans too. He also forded the river at night, unknown to Shingen. Uesugi left a small detachment of 1,000 to defend the ford.
He was going launch a surprise attack (Shingen would face South, he would attack from the West).
The Takeda lined up in the crane formation at 6 am, that's a formation used to surround. At 7 am the Uesugi charged out of the mist, not what Takeda expected and also too soon (as they didn't hear the Woodpecker noise yet).
The Woodpecker force heard the noise now and had to rush downhill, they wanted to ford the river but met resistance. 12 to 1 and they finally won.
The battle was a defeat and victory for both. 72% Uesugi and 62% (including able leaders) Takeda casualties.
Yeah I know that.
Not sure if the Takeda actually faced South though. The route Kenshin originally took to get on the mountain (and the route he took down it) would require Takeda to face West. Also the position of the woodpecker force would have effectively prevented any routers from going through the crossing that the woodpecker force ended up taking (a different crossing from the Uesugi force, one more to the East). If Shingen wanted to cut off the retreat at this crossing, he would face south. But the woodpecker force in effect made it so that he had no reason to cut off the retreat at this crossing as no troops would route through there. So I think Takeda faced West. Otherwise the Takeda would have routed almost as soon as it began, and yet they miraculously held on for 6h.
Also an interesting thing from the TV series Fuurinkazan is that Yamamoto Kansuke had the arbequeous fire almost as soon as he saw the Uesugi forces through the fog, and the sun of the arbequeous warned the Takeda troops on the mountian.
I still don't get why Kenshin moved off the mountain though. The wookpecker strategy relies on the fact the 12 000 men team take the Uesugi line by surprise due to the fog. But Kenshin obviously figured out what they were going to do, so Takeda already lost the element of surprised. In fact Kenshin himself had the element of surprise that he can use to hit either one of Takeda's divisions.
Also if I read the Japanese Wikipedia correctly, and I could be wrong as my Japanese isn't THAT great (but in any case I don't trust the English one), the deathtoll is 3000 for Uesugi and 4000 for Takeda. That's far from the obviously-over-exaggerated percentage given by the English one.
Of course given that Kenshin set out from Echigo with 15~18 000, 3000 is still very high casualties.
But its true that Kenshin suffered much casualties that when he went to Kantou again in November, he didn't have enough troops to fight as hard as he wanted. Begs the question where the 100 000 men allied army of the Kantou lords went this time.
Of course the Kouyou Gunkan is also known for a lot of inaccuracies. Maybe this is one of them.
EDIT: YAY! I just realized I am member! Good now edit mistake.
That rational for having the timer came from Creative Assembly, and is one of the things they did to make battles seem larger scale. Other things are the limited camera height, shortened range for shooters, fatigue rate and limited range of morale effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
Hello,
This is the scene, as far as I know:
Top of the picture is North. The blue line at the top is the Saigawa river. The diagonal one is the Chikumagawa. The two blac lines are fords, the northern one is the Hirose, the southern is the Amenoyima.
The dark green on the left is the Chausuyama (mountain/hill), the one at the bottom is the Saijosan height.
The brown square is Kaizu castle held by Takeda.
The plain doesn't only have those two large rivers, but also several brooks.
Uesugi (blue) arrived from the North at the 25th September 1561 from the North, crossed the Chikumagawa at the southern ford, occupied Saijosan and thus threatened Kaizu castle.
Shingen received the commanders stresscall and entered the field at the 3rd of October and occupies the other hill (black).
Shingen quickly left his hill at the 8th and reinforced Kaizu.Kenshin didn't move.
Kansuke, Takedas general devised a pincher move: the woodpecker force (brown) would scare Uesugi off the hill, Uesugi would run home (or at least need time to regroup on the westbank). Takedas crane would destroy Uesugi there (the Woodpecker being on their tail).
Uesugi received reports about Takeda movements and anticipated, at least partly, the plan. And deviced a counter. Shingen was quite a warlord and had able generals, it's tricky to give him the initiative. Uesugi had his hill, but an enemy force was manoeuvred in the night up there too. Where would it strike the next morning?
Uesugi also thinked further ahead:the Takeda forces were split and anticipated to launch a surprise pincher. The mainbody would be weakened and was only prepared to slay a confused and routing army. If Kenshin would make the right move, he could kill Shingen and defeat the whole of the Takeda forces.
So Kenshin sneaked down and crossed the same ford again, he left a 1,000 force to guard it (this would cut of routing Takeda after the main attack succeeded, but would also stop the Woodpecker). The attack was going to be the two colum 'winding wheel'.
The Takeda crane didn't hear 'the run for you life' calls and didn't get a routing enemy to slaughter, instead they faced a strong Uesugi attack. The Woodpecker, now on top of the hill, and no doubt being lost about the disbandoned enemy camp, heard battle cries and rushed down again. They planned to cross the river between the two fords (shortest route), but where stopped.
Uesugi almost succeeded, but his rear force of 1,000 wasn't enough to stop the 12,000 for long.
There are, as often, different accounts on the casualties. Uesugi arrived with, so it's said, 18,000 and Takeda took over 3,000 heads. That would be ~20%.
Different accounts and also different divisions: Uesugi for example had a baggage train + army of 2,000 that didn't take part in the actual fighting, but safeguarded the retreat. It was a bloody battle.
Hmmmm
I reread the Japanese Wikipedia.
Apparently the woodpecker force could have been defeated and the plan would still work. Probably that should Kenshin defeat the Takeda force, he would think he had won the battle and start moving back to Echigo, which is when he would be hit hard by a fresh Takeda force, at the same time the woodpecker force could rally and hit him from the rear.
So by moving off the mountain, Kenshin ensured that even if he is defeated, he has a clear route of retreat back to Echigo. Now it makes sense.
According to Japanese Wikipedia. Kenshin left 5000 of the 18000 men force he start out with at that monastary on the route to Echigo.
And I just realized. Shingen's position effectively placed his troops with their back to the river. No wonder they held so long.
And I thought the kurumagakari (wheel spokes) formation was more a circle. A multi-layer circle. Sort of like 4 units deep in the centre, 3 beside it, 2, then 1. With the attackers rotating like a wheel.
Hello Parallel Pain,
Yes, the 5,000. That's something that's not 100% clear to me. Kenshin left those 5,000 north of the Saigawa when he crossed it to enter the plain at the 25th. I don't know whether they stayed there the whole time or whether they joined the Saijosan. I guess they stayed, as safeguarding the escape route is vital.
The baggage train was guarded by a force too, which would also help Kenshin get away when things went wrong. -2,000. So, what's left was 11,000. And we can bet that the whole 1,000 of the rearguard got whiped out.
I'm not sure how the wheel spokes worked. But this attack started in two colums. One unit engages, gives way and is replaced by the other.
What you say must have crossed Kenshins mind too: at least I can get away now.
Kenshins plan would have worked had the rearguard managed to hold the WoodPecker. 12,000 vs 1,000 is a lot, even when having a river in between. I guess Kenshin either didn't know how large the pecker force was (can't even be sure he knew), or gambled that he would kill Shingen quickly enough.
"Yeah, I never accept the Portuguese' offer to become Catholic. While the religious income is nice and early Arqs can be useful, it's still almost never worthwhile for me. Aside from risking revolt and the fact that Arquebusiers aren't *that* nice, I also don't like losing the ability to train WM."
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I keep a rather different pov on that.....I ALWAYS accept the first offer that comes along (except as Mori---for obvious reasons). Why? Plain & simple:
MUSKETS RULE!
The idea is not to get the arquebus, but the muskets! You can accept the Portuguese offer at any time but you will stay Buddhist until the moment you build your first trading post. This gives you time to prepare your province pacification program-----shinobi.
Since I make extensive use of them for both defensive and offensive schemes anyway, this is not a problem. Once I have at least two or more shinobi in each of my provinces (more in those previously mentioned Buddhist provinces, if I own any of them), then I go ahead and begin my trading posts. The extra 200 koku income from each comes in very handy during lean harvest years.
I may or may not build any arquebus units at all. It depends on what clan I am playing, the strategic situation, and what upgrades are available (a +3 to attack will do very nicely for holding Owari against all comers, for instance).
As Hojo, you can now go on to build a Gun Factory in Hitachi (after all the appropriate buildings are in place); as Takeda, Aki can do the same; as Shimazu, Nagato will serve the function. As Uesugi or Imagawa you will have to capture one of those provinces.
Now you can make muskets........and years before any of your rivals!:yes:
As to WM......I hardly ever use them anymore, so it's not a big deal to lose the capability to produce them (if later on I capture a Temple Complex in Kaga or Kii, I may keep them to produce a few). Like a previous poster said, No Dachi are cheaper to produce and, with proper armor upgrades make much better flankers than WM's.
Besides, try holding a bridge with WM units against 5-6,000 troops trying to "convince" you to vacate:inquisitive:
I've had many epic battles in my various campaigns (from easy to expert) and most of them involve the integral use of muskets with various other types of units (depending on province and clan) in stopping multiple stacks (sometimes as many as six at one time) from evicting me from a province.
For those who love defending Shinano (or hate it!) there's a beautiful and yet classic way to defend that doesn't involve swarms of archers standing on that big western hill (which gets to be boooooring to me after awhile).
The added income benefits and the ability to create musket units many years before your rivals get them are, IMHO, the two main reasons for accepting the Portuguese offer ASAP..........
For those having trouble deciding how to develop, I have these suggestions:
Always look at your bank account at the beginning of each turn and plan what you will be able to do for the year. Add up the total of your planned building upgrades and balance that with your unit needs. As you get better at conducting battles, you will be able to do more with less troops and need less replacements after a battle thus reducing your unit costs and making more koku available for buildings and other upgrades.
Pay special attention to provincial bonus....and take as much advantage of them as you can (that extra +1 honor can often make the difference between victory and defeat in high level battles on expert setting where the AI gets a +2 bonus for its troops).
Don't bother upgrading farming in areas with under 200 koku yield. It just takes waaaaay too long to see the return on your investment (sometimes over 20years). But instead, concentrate your upgrades on those provinces with much better yields. It also takes a very long time to see a return from lvl 2 copper mines.....I never bother with them unless I've developed the province for other reasons, and have extra koku to burn.
Build ports judiciously at the start.....have a planned line-of-advance and build a port at each corner of your line where you plan on stopping (even if only temporary). Getting troops back and forth from your front lines is crucial in holding lines against multiple-stack attacks......you need to be able to get your troops R&R, and ready your counterattack as quickly as possible. Later, you can add ports wherever you see fit, and as koku permits.
At any rate, hope at least some part of this helps........
I thought the weapon bonus didn't apply to ranged weapons, just to the melee weapons of the ranged troops?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Anyway, Tosa, thanks for that account ~:)
"I thought the weapon bonus didn't apply to ranged weapons, just to the melee weapons of the ranged troops?"
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I would venture by my experience with combat results that weapon bonus does apply to ranged weapons. Someone with better knowledge than me concerning STW e-files might answer this more definitively:book:
I have STW/WE and the card icon that shows up at the bottom for a ranged unit during battle shows the daggers (+1, +2, +3, as well as any armor upgrades). Now whether this means it's applied during a battle.....I don't know....but again, I notice significant differences in kill numbers the higher the weapon bonus..........
Correct. All weapon/honour bonuses affect melee combat only.
"Correct. All weapon/honour bonuses affect melee combat only."
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I'm not asking this to be insulting in any way but........you're absolutely sure about that?
I could swear that during body counts (and in looking at the battle results dump which can be created for each battle that the more weapon upgrades I added to my archers and/or muskets, the higher the kill ratio).
Again, I have little knowledge of the workings of the STW e-file, so I may just be full of it.........................
I've been told that it doesn't. I can't say I ever looked into it deep enough to be sure though. But I think there's no doubt anyway. Other's have done that testing, etc. ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
btw, Tosa and Parallel Pain, how do you know all this? I'm puzzled. :dizzy2: Very nice to read about a historical battle, and the trics/tactics of those 2 brilliant generals. Thanks for the story's! :book:
Ah, ReluctantSamurai. I never actually built a weapon factory in so many games.. Guess that's because I only very rarely became christian. Reading your experiences on this, makes me want to try the Portugese offer again. I always found the benefit of having arq's inferior to the loyalty problems. Yet you are of course right, could just as well train muskets with their offer. I'm definitely going to try in my next Sengoku Jidai campaign! :book: :yes:
Wow, I haven't had time to stop by and I'm glad--some great reading here. Thanks to all.
***
Yeah, it's been exhaustively documented that wep bonuses affect only melee, not ranged effectiveness. Honor, on the other hand, has an affect, though the magnitude has been debated some. I think the standing position is that honor upgrades offer a slight improvement to ranged performance, but only for the first few levels before the benefit seems neglible when considering the cost of the upgrade (this has been discussed primarily in terms of guns over the last few years).
"I always found the benefit of having arq's inferior to the loyalty problems."
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You won't have any problems if you prepare ahead of time with shinobi. I go Christian nearly all the time now, and once I learned to post enough shinobi up, I've never had a province go rebel. After a year or two, things calm down especially after you get a few churches built, and by the time you're ready for the cathedral, everyone is happy as pigs in.......well you know:laugh4:
And as I said, I may build several arquebus for river provinces, but I don't start building guns units wholesale until I can produce the musket.
Hello Drisos,
There's of course Wikipedia, always a nice first step:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Kawanakajima
From Samurai-archives:
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/ind...f_Kawanakajima
http://www.answers.com/topic/battles-of-kawanakajima
An Osprey book:
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S5627
Yes, well I never use those guns in my STW campaigns because they are a mistake that unbalances the game. I put the arq's and muskets back to the original STW stats before MI was released because those are the gun stats that the official designer of the battles chose.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
In regard to arqs vs. muskets in SP, etc., here's my take:
Both cause a serious morale drop for the unit being fired upon. This is the real weapon. Kills ... cool, but I can kill more by routing them and then sending my reserve cav to run them down when they flee.
Hence, if I decide to use guns, I'll usually use both in a SP game--arqs as soon as I can, muskets when they become available. I don't take a lot though, especially arqs. They don't fire in rain, which limits their usefulness under such conditions. They can still be used to bolster the morale of engaged units by positioning them appropriately, to distract and divert, and to soak up arrow fire, etc..
I prefer to build my gunner training centers in either Owari or Tosa for the ashigaru honor bonus. I find +1 Attack, +1 Defense, and +2 Morale a better overall bonus than +1 Defense, +1 Armor (armor doesn't affect bullet penetration much anyway ...). As neither of these provinces have iron and sand deposits, I usually go Christian in a game where I intend to harness the gaijin weapons. "Timing is everything," and I usually don't wait for the Dutch. By the time they arrive, Japan should be pretty much dominated, if not completely.
That being said, I often take a hardcore traditional stance and do not use guns at all. Unfortunately, the AI doesn't make very good use of them, so it doesn't give the enemy much of an advantage, if any--assuming they even get a chance to build them.
"Yes, well I never use those guns in my STW campaigns because they are a mistake that unbalances the game."
"That being said, I often take a hardcore traditional stance and do not use guns at all."
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I've modified the stat files for both to reflect the designers original intent. Also, I don't see why not using guns is considered "a hardcore traditional stance." After all, if one of the great generals of the time saw fit to employ them in numbers and develop tactics for them, who would know better than Oda Nobunaga?:smash:
All joking aside, I don't "abuse" the use of guns. And by that I mean that I realize the AI doesn't use them very well, so I don't take unfair advantage by loading up (no pun intended:laugh4: ) on muskets. I typically employ 2-3 in an army.....more for bridge provinces or "ironing-board" topography provinces.
I rarely ever have more than 4 in an army, and even then it would be only temporary. I prefer a balanced approach......the remaining units typically would be 2 CA, 2 YC, 2-4 SA, and the balance infantry units (YS & ND mostly). This mix gets varied depending on terrain, and what the enemy is likely to bring to the battlefield.
Didn't Yuuki say that the guns are unbalanced in STW:MI?
I can't claim I don't use guns at all, but I do use them only rarely. (In addition, I never accept the Portuguese offer to trade, which means I don't get arqs/mukets until after the Dutch show up.) I tend to be more of a traditionalist in this regard -- I much prefer arrows to gunpowder & musket balls. ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
Guns are indeed overpowered in Mongol Invasion, but I don't remember by how much. (Puzz would know.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Parallel Pain
Yes, guns are strong in 1.02--enough so that they command a lot more respect--no more charging full or near-full teppo units directly with cavalry. If they have a clear line of fire, approaching directly with infantry is also sure death and rout. Archers can seriously hurt teppos with their higher accuracy and better rate of fire--particularly with altitude advantage, but they will lose a shoot out in the long run because they have considerably less ammo (unless of course, you time your oblique cavalry attack against the attritioned teppo units just right ... and pull them out before the counter cav or spears get to you).
1.02 teppos can make taking a defensive stance more difficult as well; if you don't have a decent position and parity countering enemy guns, you have to move and attack/counterattack cleverly to avoid getting slowly shot to pieces.
One of the most annoying things for some folks is that you pretty much have to take teppo if your enemies have them (especially in MP; I very rarely saw less than three teppo units in a 1.02 army that was effective; four was the typical number taken, the max allowed with our rule set). The exception would be a "rush" army, which only a few players/teams knew how to use well consistently.
I play 1.02 MI in SP frequently and don't find the overpowered guns to be a big issue. I just don't take many of them, if any, and if the enemy has them, I respect their power and deal with them accordingly.
In 1.02, talented MP players have proven that an army of high-level "super" ashigaru (Honor 8-9 w/lots of wep and armor upgrades) and teppo can beat just about any army. In this sense, it is definitely "unbalanced." Hence, most serious players in MP feel that 1.02 requires rules to (somewhat) balance the play. Ours was "4 max no ashi," which meant you could take a max of four of any one type of unit, and ashigaru spearmen were prohibited.
In SP, we can adjust our playing style to "balance" out game play and enjoy the many good points of 1.02 (good in my mind, at least).
With the WE that is what I do (as well as using modified stats), and "traditional" or "untraditional" I see no shame is using guns. They do not win the campaign for me........battles, yes......but there are many many battles to be fought, many of them 'sans' the muskets. And mistakes or laxity on the strat map, while usually not lethal, can cause one large headaches, guns or no.PHP Code:In SP, we can adjust our playing style to "balance" out game play
I have a greedy Daimyo who just can t wait to get his hands on those guns. I use them, overpowered or not, rejoicing in the new toys.
Of course it usually ends up backfiring... (pun intended).
I follow Martok, unless I play as Oda and want something different. But, usually it's the traditional way for me too.
Say Tosa
You know that battle where Nobunaga crushed Takeda Katsuyori, Nagashino I think it was
Why did the Takeda Cavalry charge at all?
I mean I get the rain thing, but it should be obvious their cavalry can't get pass the stockade rain or shine and will be just left out in the open for archers and arquebouses, while a few spearmen block the stockade entrances.
I mean why oh why did they charge the stockade at all? After all a stockade is a set defence, Takeda could just move to another battlefield and Nobunaga's stockade would be useless.
At least in Kagemusha, Katsuyori seemed desperate to win without Shingen backing him up, so I'd say he got arrogant and rash.
But that's just the movie, of course ~;)
The stockade was probably a much smaller thing than what's depicted in the very nice movie. There's a picture in STW (campmap\Info-Pics\trp0009.tga), that's about the pallisade used.
That looked brittle and insignificant, certainly not something that would stop a horse.
From Japanese wiki:
この柵についても、通説では馬防柵などと呼ばれ、騎馬の侵入を防ぐ為の（牧場の囲い柵を連想するような）ものと思われがちだが、柵の跡と一緒に堀や盛り土の土手の跡も見つかっている。つまりこの柵は単体で使用した ものではなく、ここに簡単な城もしくは砦か大規模な陣城を築いて戦った跡だと考えられる。
In other words. The stockade wasn't such light fortifications as a thin bamboo fence. It was almost a fort.
Though I admit I still have to look through carefully at the entire article.
That's possible Parallel Pain. There are different accounts.
There's a (suggested) reconstruction of the battlefield: page 72 http://books.google.nl/books?id=xFaC...hl=nl#PPA72,M1
I do not deny the fence was effective, but it (seemed to) looked brittle. Quite different from the one in the movie.
Muskets have a limited lethal effectivity versus armoured samurai. It can still kill at longer ranges of course, but armour would be able to stop many at say 50-100 meters (ignoring the accuracy bit). Of course: what about the horse?
Cavalry in charge would only need a few seconds to cross the killing zone. Just in front of the barricade was a small river and that slowed the charge quite a bit.
The movie makes it look like only the guns acted. There was hand to hand combat.
Katsuyori almost looks like a lunatic in the movie. He wanted to 'better' Shingen and was a bit bold. But he also underestimated and failed to see the situation. It's suggested that the scout reports were not complete and the situation doesn't look that bad from a first glance. It's the famous Takeda cavalry versus some low class Oda infantry.
The Oda/Tokugawa forces had a stack of several terrain advantages. Page 70 and 71 give an impression of this. Woods, high ground, river, man made barricades.
Even the simple fortifications as seen in that book is enough to stop cavalry, what with the banks and everything.
And I never seen the movie. I think Katsuyori must have had a reason to fight, I just don't know what it is.
Yes, all together it was enough. The point is, that it probably doesn't look so tough. It's a stack of little things: a cute river, a small slope, some fences, a couple of so called bushis :shrugs: Mighty Takeda cavalry. Charge!
The bank was important:
The reason to attack there and then? He was there on a campaign and sieged Nagashino castle. An Oda/Tokugawa relief force popped up and Katsuyori thought he could beat them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
He was probably a bit frustrated in failing to take the castle, Shingen already defeated both armies before, that's the emotional part of him attacking.
The second is that it didn't look so bad in his mind, underestimated but insufficient scouting is reported too.
His veteran generals did not agree, but had to follow.
To 'excuse' Katsuyori: Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Hideyoshi are three formidable generals and knew how to play tricks.
Ok I read J-wiki
I will try to throw aside all the legends and exaggerations and work on history
Forces:
1) At Shitaraga Plain, Oda-Tokugawa numbered about 18 000, Takeda 7000
2) Oda-Tokugawa had at least 1000 arquebous at Shitaraga Plain
3) Though called a plain, Shitaraga Plain is far from wide open space, but filled with low hills and a river too. Nobunaga built ramparts and stockade to further reinforce his position.
Battle:
1) Under Sakai Tadatsugu, the siege of Nagashino Castle was broken during the night of June 28th (western calender, May 20th by traditional Asian calender) by a successful night assault on the five Takeda Forts built to surround Nagashino.
2) June 29th Katsuyori moved to Shitagara Plain for the battle.
3) Katsuyori tried to overcome the Oda-Tokugawa with a double envelopment. However, the Takeda centre under Takeda Nobutoyo withdrew prematurely (and without orders), resulting in the flanks having to take more of the fighting than they should. In addition, Nobunaga had concentrated much firepower on his flanks.
4) After hours of heavy fighting, Nobunaga ordered his men (reserves probably) forward. The Takeda, having taken heavy punishment, routed and were cut down.
5) Casualties was 1000~2000 Takeda and 600 Oda-Tokugawa (counting the battle at Shitaraga Plain only). The problem for Katsuyori was that amongst the casualties were too many of Takeda's veteran generals and lords.
Reason's for Takeda's defeat:
1) Numbers (try defeating an army over twice your size)
2) The grounds and defences limited Takeda's attack and suited Oda-Tokugawa's defensive stance
3) Guns
4) Disagreements amongst the Takeda
Why Katsuyori had to fight at Nagashino:
Under Shingen, the plan was to crush the Oda clan by the surrounding daimyo such as Azai, Asakura. But by Nagashino, Azai and Asakura had already been crushed. The Oda clan was growing stronger by the day. If Katsuyori does not fight, the next time the two sides meet Katsuyori could be facing even worse odds. If he does not defeat the Oda now, he wouldn't ever be able to.
(Katsuyori might have decided against a defensive position as he would have faced the force Sakai Tadatsugu plus the defenders of Nagashino on his flank or rear, while Oda-Tokugawa attacked him from the front. He can't withdraw, as that would insure his doom in the long run. With the seige broken and the castle reinforced, Katsuyori can not assault the castle and take it before Oda-Tokugawa fell on his rear. Therefore his only hope of victory is to attack and defeat the Oda-Tokugawa force. He is forced to fight even when all the odds are stacked against him. Even if Katsuyori does win, what's left of his force is not enough to continue the campaign and maybe not even to take Nagashio. Campaign-wise Takeda had already lost. Their only hope of real victory is if they can take the head of Nobunaga)
On the other hand Nobunaga did not even need to fight at Nagashino. With the arrival of his forces, his agreement with Ieyasu has been reached and Katsuyori can't continue the seige. If Katsuyori choose to withdraw, the campaign is won. If Katsuyori choose to fight, as long as Oda-Tokugawa force does not loose the campaign is won. Therefore the huge number and preparations are not to win, but to not loose. By Sakai Tadatsugu's night attack, Takeda's route of retreat was threatened, Nagashino saved, Oda-Tokugawa's morale raised, Oda's power and friendship to Tokugawa demonstrated, and Katsuyori is forced on a time-limit to fight or not.
In short, by Oda's arrival, Nobunaga (as said before) had already won.
Things about the battle:
1) Takeda's legendary cavalry likely did not exist, as from contemporary sources nothing of the such was mentioned. Even if it did, it was likely only 10% of the Takeda's force.
2) The battle went from morning to early afternoon. Therefore for hours the Takeda force had to take the punishing fire from Nobunaga's arquebous.
3) The arquebous did not do the damage as seen in the movie. They but worn down the Takeda. The rampart and other ashigaru forces stopped the Takeda attack. The real blow came at about 1 or 2 PM when Nobunaga ordered his flanks forward (the center stayed put behind the stockade). The Takeda force was tired out after hours of fighting, their ranks disorganized, and had no reserves and were routed. Most of the casualties were inflicted here (as always).
In conclusion, Katsuyori ws neither stupid nor rash. He just gambled on his only chance at victory and lost.
How I understood it: Sakai Tadatsugu broke the Takeda force that continued the siege, while the Shidarahara battle took place. The Takeda advance started at 6.00 AM, the raid followed two hours later. The raid force left at midnight in a thunderstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parallel Pain
Shidarahara started with manouevres on the 27th and was fought the 28th (Osprey Campaign Nagashino 1575).Quote:
2) June 29th Katsuyori moved to Shitagara Plain for the battle.
Takeda left 3,000 men to continue the siege and the raid was also 3,000 strong.
This is roughly the field:
This map is ~5*5 km iiuc.
The yellow are Oda/Tokugawa forces. The thin blue line in front of them is the Rengogawa river, there's also a branch behind them. There's also a small river in the centre of the map.
The large blue lines are the Toyokawa, Onogawa and Takigawa river. These are not small ones like the Rengogawa.
The brown square denotes the Nagashino castle.
The Nagashino campaign from May 30th up till June 28th started further North, Takeda went South and was now halfway back. There was hope to easily grab some key castles, but it all failed. Nagashino was a consolation price. That failed too.
I think it is unlikely that a 3,000 man raid could have defeated a sieging force of 15,000 behind that big river. If that would have happened, it's Tokugawa territory and maybe they could have launched something, I think it's more likely that Takeda would retreat/rout to the east and back home and not cross the river and attack.
There wasn't a tactical need to attack: there was a nice river between them and the Takeda could, they could defend or afaik, just pull back.
There was no strategic need to attack either, other than in Katsuyoris mind. He hadn't achieved anything yet in the campaign, his generals appreciated Katsuyori the warrior and he was the clanleader, but he was not Shingen. The generals disagreed about the whole campaign from the start: they didn't want an offensive one. He wanted to avoid a 'see I told ya'.
Takeda didn't have to defeat Oda, there was no pressing need. Oda had trouble at several fronts: The Mori in the West and the Ikko were a headache.
Takeda could have continued these larger scale raids and Oda would have trouble to manoeuvre from West to East and back again. There was enough room for a better chance tomorrow. In retrospect perhaps.
Takeda left with 15,000 men and only 5,000 returned. Katsuyori was only totally destroyed seven years later. Oda already dealt with the Ikko by then.
Reasons for Oda to leave him: other urging matters in the West, crippled Takeda buffer between him and Hojo.
We have three reports now:
The movie Kagemusha, I think we agree to reject that.
The Japanese wiki.
Osprey.
Which one is correct? I think we need more information, especially maps and such. I assume for example that Takeda could retreat while on the eastbank of the big rivers, it does look possible to retreat home, but is it? If not he could have opted to go to the westbank and not charge but pull back.
It's not whether or not Oda have other fronts to fight, it's how strong Oda is, and Oda is getting stronger and stronger.
Before a Clan takes the entire of Honshu it will always have other fronts to fight. The question is its strength. As Yamamoto Kansuke said to Shingen in Fuurinkazan "We will take Shinano, then move into Echigo. After that we will hit Suruga. Once we have done all that our country will be so strong that no one can stop us."
Even when Nobunaga was assasinated, the Oda clan was still fighting multiple fronts. But they had more than enough strength to do so.
That's what needs to be prevented. Remember even by traditional numbers the Oda-Tokugawa force was 38000 total to Takeda's 15000 (and by one thought up by some Japanese military historian in the Meji era, 21000 Oda-Tokugawa and 7000, but who cares, you get the point). Even the other daimyos were feeling the pressure of the Oda Clan's strength, and the desperately tried to gang up on the Oda (again), with Uesugi Kenshin also participating. It's funny the first one broke up when Shingen died and the second one broke up when Kenshin died. But the contrast is that in the first one Nobunaga had quite a bit of trouble dealing with, this second one he dealt with with almost no problem. That's how strong the Oda Clan has become.
It looks like Osprey is using traditional Japanese sources. One could easily question whether or not those numbers are correct.
But putting that aside, we have to remember a large percentage of the army of the time, actually possibly the majority, were ashigaru. A simple surprise strike could sweep them away. Takeda Nobutora had done it to the Imagawa, just like Oda Nobunaga did (also to the Imagawa heh). Hojo Ujiyasu was able to hold Odawara Castle against a reputed (and obviously exaggerated but if you trust traditional sources) 100 000 allied army of the various Kantou lords. Ujiyasu also hit a Kantou army 6~7 times his size at Kawagoe Castle in a night assault and won a decisive victory. So there's no question that it can be done.
Sakai Tadatsugu's raid (according to J-wiki) was also a night raid against an unprepared enemy.
And you have to remember with Oda-Tokugawa army arriving, Katsuyori is forced to move likely most of his troops away from the castle to reform into a battle formation to prevent being caught with his back to the enemy. Sakai Tadatsugu only hit those that were left to keep up the siege. If fact Sakai Tadatsugu chased the routing Takeda troops too far he ran into the main Takeda force and lost one of his generals.
If Sakai Tadatsugu's raid happened like that, then Katsuyori has every reason to attack. By retreating he would be chased and be faced with the combine force of Oda-Tokugawa AND the sideforce under Tadatsugu+Nagashino's garrison. That'll make him be outnumbered more than 3 times instead of only about 2.5 at Shitagara plain. If he takes the defence he'll be attacked from two sides.
BTW, do you mean Osprey publishing's book by Stephen Turnbull? Because he's not exactly known to question the reliability of sources or look at works by modern historians that take into account more stuff and try not to exaggerate and questions lots of things (like how good exactly is Takeda's cavalry). But then I guess the same can be said about Wikipedia.
Hello Parallel Pain,
Yes, it's that Osprey, the link in post 117 http://books.google.nl/books?id=xFaC...hl=nl#PPA72,M1
It's showing a few pages only to tease.
It's not that easy to obtain books, a couple of years ago, even Osprey or plain Turnbull books were harder to get (didn't see them in the bookstores).
It's always difficult to learn what has happened, no matter what the source is. This took place over 400 years ago in a totally different culture. On top of that, already colored and incomplete accounts had to 'survive' extra colouring during the Tokugawa era.
=========================================================
There's a book by Dr. Mitsuo Kure. He graduated in medical school but started a research into Japanese history. He is not a history scholar, but being schooled into any art doesn't mean you know the truth about the subject.
His book discusses the battle too.
Katsuyori answered the call of the puppet Ashikaga Yoshiaki. Oda Nobunaga himself 'installed' him as shogun. The puppet was working behind his back to get Oda down.
This book doesn't mention the whole campaign, the reader gets the impression that Katsuyori marches straight up to Nagashino castle in June. Osprey mentions that Nagashino was only the consolation price after a failed tough raid.
The book mentions a few things and some of them do sound logical if you look at what seems to be happening. His main source seems to be a document written by Ota Guichi, a Nobunaga retainer (was he there?).
It mentions 30,000 for the allies and 15,000 for Takeda. The actual number doesn't matter all that much, just that it again states Oda to have a numerical advantage (for starters).
At that time, Oda thought that Takeda was stronger, so they decided to fight defensively. Furthermore, the forces were strictly forbidden to leave the palisade.
My comment: why would Oda, having a 2 to 1 advantage and also a allied castle in Katsuyoris back, not simply march up. I think there's even more reason to that than just thinking he was weaker despite the numbers.
Excavation revealed the defense to be fairly massive: three lines of ditches, earthen walls and timber palisades. It also mentions though, that the used palisades would not suffice to stop a cavalry charge. My comment: it's not the insignificant fence around our garden, but it's not a solid wall either.
The attempt to answer why Katsuyori attacked:
-Because the allied army threatened his rear and forced him to attack.
My comment: The yellow arrow shows how Sakai Tadagatsu flanked. The black arrow shows how Takeda finally routed.
Takeda was in enemy territory and trouble could come from both east and west, realistically only from west though. The major problem was in the west though, camping on the east bank, where they were, would have given a fair defensive position and also an escape to home.
But even after crossing the river, they were not trapped and the retreat back home was always open. There was no tactical urge to attack. The Takeda generals advised a retreat: how could they advise that if there was no option to do so?
The timing of the manoeuvres is a point of discussion then, Osprey even suggests Katsuyori even wasn't aware while he was engaged, but he moved out of a good position himself and ignored the retreat (he could rout home after hours of fighting and losing his army, he could retreat too).
-Katsuyori was a young man, overconfident in his splendid army.
His scouts were killed and thus he didn't get proper report of what defenses were there. Rain and mist My comment (and no doubt also surrounding woods) obscured his own view.
=======================================
What happened according to this book?
The first Takeda wave consisted of sappers to clear the pathMy comment: so they did see something and decided to quickly clear that first.This wave failed, but the second reached the palisade and teared it down. Only to face a second line.
The attacks on this second line failed and eventually Katsuyori withdrew.
The book mentions another thing in a caption, the first makes sense, the second I question:
Arquebusses are black powder weapons, and the smoke of the first volley would have hindered the accuracy of the second, while the Takeda could have used that window to advance. The second is that the allies (Oda and Tokugawa) would not have won if the Takeda launched one big push.
==============End of book=====================
What goes up, must come down. This nobody is going to stop us is just boasting. The problem with getting big is that you get more enemies and/or that you'll make a mistake somewhere.Quote:
"We will take Shinano, then move into Echigo. After that we will hit Suruga. Once we have done all that our country will be so strong that no one can stop us."
Katsuyoris strategic mindset seems to have been: 'I must destroy Oda now'. Yes, Oda was growing. That also means he's accumulating enemies (he did) and maybe he isn't tough anymore next year or still tough but occupied in a conflict in the west. A 'we must defeat him' by hit and run raids from all sides, would have sorted more effect in the long run than knocking oneself out one by one.
The book suggests that Oda thought himself to be weaker. That could be their thought (either in quality and/or quantity). But the Takeda army was in 'their' territory for about a month, so they should know better. Maybe he feared the quality? The fence was there to give the ashigaru the idea of safety. The several layers did make it really tough too. He also mixed tougher bushi to prevent a rout.
But was it in Oda's interest to get rid of Takeda? Did he really want to destroy them completely right now?
The alliance knew the war was long and far from over. Nobunaga wasn't famous for kindness and while the other two weren't either, they seemed more cunning.
What could the alliance have won by destroying Takeda? Heavy losses on their own side, less men to fight other ongoing conflicts and a powervacuum in the east. What is Hojo going to do, or Uesugi? Many warlords have the (sleeping) ambition to rule the nation and/or dislike Oda.
I think plan A would be that Takeda just pulls back.
Plan B would be even nicer: Katsuyori is drawn into an attack, the alliance loses little, Takeda a lot and is forced to withdraw. No more Takeda raids and he's still a buffer to stop Hojo and Uesugi so the alliance can focus west.
I think the alliance knew about the Takeda disagreement and about Katsuyoris sentiments.
And so happened: they kept the escape door open, denied Katsuyori proper information, feigned weakness, perhaps even allowed the first fence to be broken. Takeda was only erased years later after the Ikko were destroyed in the west.
But the power of Ikko was broken the year before Nagashino
Hello Parallel Pain,
Nagashima yes, but the monks remained a pain up till 1580.
Ok so trying to get a topic back on track that I myself have derailed.
How do you effectively assault a castle/bridge? Especially a bridge.
Use one unit of spearmen at a time to cross the bridge, draw fire, and draw the enemy melee units into your ranged fire (take a good number of archers and line them up on the bank on both sides of the bridge if possible, units in rows of two). That unit will take a lot of casualties as it races back to your side just ahead of the enemy melee units, but your ranged units will be decimating the enemy melee units. Do this again with a fresh unit, rinse repeat, until the enemy's fighters are decimated and their ranged units are out of ammo. Then cross the bridge and kick butt.
A more fun, less exploitive way to do it is to put cav in columns 2-3 wide, and send them across fast, one at a time. Just as they get to the other side turn hard right or left and race far to the left/right side of the map on the enemy side of the bridge. As the enemy divides to go after them, do it again with another cav unit, to the other side. Use these units to draw attention away from the bridge, staying just ahead of pursuit. When the time is right, cross the bridge with your remaining units and attack en masse. Usually the enemy is spread out all over the place at this point and it's easy to harrass and route them. This technique is not a good one to use if they have a ton of archers (or counter cavalry). A combination of these two approaches often works well. With the second approach, the basic strategy is divide, distract and conquer. It must be well-timed.
The bridge assault challenge has been discussed a lot before so if you dig, you should be able to find stuff about it. Also, check the War College thread at the .com. Wish I had more time ... this is a bit vague. Maybe others who understand what I'm describing will elaborate further.
I actually find Yari Cavalry to be fairly useful in this situation (I forgot about that when discussing them in the other thread). They have the necessary speed to get away once they've drawn the enemy across the bridge, meaning I can use them repeatedly in the feinting attacks you just described.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
For that matter, Cavalry Archers work in this role as well. While they're not quite as fast as YC, they're a little less expensive -- which can be important, as the "bait" unit may still suffer losses (due to enemy missile fire, if nothing else).
Hello,
I use this bait trick as well.
When the enemy doesn't have much missiles, but a lot of say warriormonks instead, you can also use a ysam on hold. The monks will be inside your misilerange longer while beating the ysam. The ysam will be lost, but you can erase high value monks.
A naginata infantry can be used at times too, and it's high armour protects it a bit against enemy missiles. Note though that these units are slower than ashigaru and may be chased down to zero. Make sure you have a good counter on your bank in case the monks decide to come accross.
It's not possible to command your archers onto the bridge to get in range, or park your naginata there to block and suck monks in, but you can order them to cross it and cancel the move order when they are halfway, same effect.
That is an interesting technique Tosa--cancelling movement orders when on the bridge to choke it up. I'll have to try that.
Ysams can be used repeatedly (well, twice at least), provided they are rotated. Send one across, bring them back, let them rest while ordering another unit across, etc..
The main reason I use ysams is lower cost and decent armor. Also, I don't engage the enemy melee units that counterattack on the enemy side of the bridge--I turn around and run back across the bridge, leading them into closer range of my archers. I've found that speed is not essential as long as the turn-around is timed well. I have my archers hold fire until they are fairly close, then turn on Fire-At-Will, maximizing their ammo and kills (and turn Fire-at-Will off when they move back to extreme range). I keep a fresh ysam unit waiting on my side of the bridge to repulse the counterattackers and cover the retreating unit if the pursuers come onto the bridge (they usually don't, retreating once my unit is halfway back across the bridge). Melee engagement comes when my archers are out of arrows, enemy melee units are severely attritioned and fatigued, and I make the big push across the bridge. My ysams are significantly attritioned, but somewhat fresh because I rotate them in the feints across the bridge.
Cav are bigger targets, and I've found that casualties/cost are higher than I'd prefer. I don't turtle a lot, so cost and availability of units is something I usually have to manage carefully. Much later in the game if I've teched up, I've used Heavy Cav for this--decent speed and very good armor and defense. Early on, the Daimyo unit is great for crossing the bridge right off and getting the enemy to chase and break focus and formations. He can gain a lot of personal honor in a single battle doing this. It's not usually a good idea if the enemy has counter cav though (unless it's just their lower-honor Daimyo, in which case it can be a golden opportunity to cut the head from the snake early on, particularly if he has no heirs; Hojo does not early on, and it is greatly desireable for the Uesugi to eliminate them before the maturation of Hojo Ujiyasu).
In this kind of battle, if I can produce them and I'm not going to use the cav-cross-harrass-confuse method, I take a unit or two of Nag cav, keeping them in reserve for the moment the enemy begins to waver in the main attack across the bridge, after all the cat and mouse games. Their attack capability is formidable and usually they are the final blow that routes and then chases down the enemy. A unit or two of monks can be good for this too, so long as the enemy archers are out of ammo or significantly attritioned.
My favorite opening strategy as Uesugi in the original Sengoku campaign requires two well-fought bridge battles with basic troops early on. I abandon Hida and Shinano on Turn 1, shifting all forces east to take Hitachi on Turn 3, and Shimosa on Turn 4, destroying Hojo troop production within the first year. After another bridge battle in Musashi a few turns later, the Hojo are wiped out, and my income more than doubled. Shortly thereafter, I retake Shinano permanently, attacking from Echigo, Kozuke and Musashi simultaneously. As Echigo and Musashi are river provinces, they require far fewer troops to defend effectively, allowing me to stack in Shinano. Three-point defense, two of them rivers: within the first four years this puts the Uesugi in a formidable position strategically and economically. It will be years before attack from Noto/Sado becomes a significant risk, so there's plenty of time to bolster than last pole after establishing command of the eastern provinces.
Anyway, I digress. I enjoy reading about different approaches to try. Thanks.
Masamune, that's almost exactly how I played my last Uesugi campaign; you'll never run out of koku with all those farming provinces.
One can also not underestimate the effects of weather. If you are short on ranged attackers and the enemy has them in numbers, attacking in rain (hvy thunderstorm=optimal) negates some of the dmg.
I like fog because I can race my CA forward to do some initial damage and depending on how close the river banks are, they can get in a fair amount of targeting from the rear at enemy units retreating away from the bridge.
If I have any fast-moving infantry (like ND or WM) I will often send them across, at this time if enemy formations are disrupted enough. If the havoc thus created is enough, I send my cavalry across (which by this time will get in a fair number of flanking attacks on the disordered enemy).
Without any kind of bad weather, the afore-mentioned tactics will have to do.
One other worth mentioning, for those who don't adhere to any "traditionalist" notions, is to combine fog with BFN & Kensei. When I get slightly bored with the 'usual' I resort to this as a fun diversion. I've taken to creating an entire army of BFN with a Kensei Taisho...........they become my "bridge-busters" as well as my "port-raiders".
Cheesy, but it's a fun diversion, once in awhile:laugh4:
These are also interesting tactics and will be fun to try. Attacking a bridge rapidly in fog sounds fun indeed. Weather is one of the best things about Shogun battles, I think. Foggy battles are just too much fun.
I will never forget one MP battle, 3v3, in which Paolino Paperino came at me unseen through fog with his wingm8 supporting, very rapidly from the beginning of the game. I was totally surprised, had no time to think or plan or even type "HHHHELLLEPPPP!!!!" All of a sudden his entire army was right on top of me. Fortunately my wingm8 Anskar has ESP, and managed to save my arse with an incredible counter surprise attack. It was one of those most awesomest of battles you never forget, and the fog made it so. I wish it were possible to force foggy weather in a custom SP or MP battle.
Heh, I think perhaps you took my use of the term "traditionalist" out of context, ReluctantSamurai. By traditionalist, I was speaking in roleplay form, as a Japanese Daimyo who despises using firearms, being cowardly gaijin weapons. Such a daimyo would have no qualms about using ninja or a swordmaster. I only adopt that attitude for variety in gameplay. In SP: whatever floats your boat, I say.
I love using BFN for kicks too, much in the manner you describe, except that I don't often tech up my Sword Dojos enough to sport a Kensai gen. Kensai as gen for a ninja army does makes sense considering that only the gen unit can be seen by the AI. This allows him to lead the enemy into ambush prepared by the hidden ninja units.
Isn't that a fun and somewhat unconventional opening for the Uesugi, Wasp? I love the result. If you want to turtle, that's a great position to tuck tail. If ports are built in Echigo and Musashi, all three front line provinces can exchange troops freely in a turn. The enemies often throw themselves at Shinano again and again, which can be fun for a while. Plenty of opportunity for nonvariable income sources (ports, trading posts, and mines) to supplement the already huge farming income.
Oops, gotta run now to catch my train home!
Took me awhile to figure that one out:dizzy2:Quote:
Kensai as gen for a ninja army does makes sense considering that only the gen unit can be seen by the AI.
It's a blast watching enemy formations head towards the Kensei, only to get bush-whacked by the BFN. Often times the Kensei Taisho hasn't even finished his cigar before the battle is over:laugh4:
No, I think I understood:yes: I just didn't want anyone getting their knickers in a snit because of the use of non-historical units. Glad to see someone else enjoys them too, from time-to-time......... :laugh4:Quote:
Heh, I think perhaps you took my use of the term "traditionalist" out of context,
I only tech up a few dojo's to produce Kensei......Satsuma for its bonus (IIRC, the ND bonus applies to Kensei) and one or two others to provide armor/weapon upgrades...........Quote:
I don't often tech up my Sword Dojos enough to sport a Kensei gen.
Yes, I proceeded to turtle and build up huge stacks of elite forces and had some fun battles between Kenshin and Shingen. With Kenshin having the most cavalry, hehe ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
In my experience, the Kensai seems to get to honour four / five in his first two battles pretty quick, so I usually don't bother with a bonus like that.. just make sure he gets the palace, swordsmith and armory upgrades ~:)Quote:
I only tech up a few dojo's to produce Kensei......Satsuma for its bonus (IIRC, the ND bonus applies to Kensei) and one or two others to provide armor/weapon upgrades...........
Made the quotes shorter, they're just there to point at what I'm talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
I use both tricks as well, all the time. I can't even remember a battle I didn't. I usually use my Daimyo as bait in the first method. May sound dumb, but believe me, he doesn't die anyway. Otherwise YS/Nag, anything that doesn't die too soon. It doesn't matter if they rout. They'll rally anyway.
Ah! Another trick I use sometimes. ~:) I found it helpful against mongol light cavalry that was too eager to cross the bridge. A strong unit of YS will keep them away, while heavy fire destroyes their numbers. ~:) A long while back though, that battle..Quote:
It's not possible to command your archers onto the bridge to get in range, or park your naginata there to block and suck monks in, but you can order them to cross it and cancel the move order when they are halfway, same effect.
Same for me. I send in my YS. I have them turn their back at the enemy. Then when they're close I have them run to my side again. The enemy usually keep chasing until almost at the bridge. This way you can get a nice number of volleys. (But always keep forces ready for when they do cross!)Quote:
The main reason I use ysams is lower cost and decent armor. Also, I don't engage the enemy melee units that counterattack on the enemy side of the bridge--I turn around and run back across the bridge, leading them into closer range of my archers.
Wow! Cool idea. I definately have to try this one sometime. I usually abandon Hida (But sometimes rebels leave it and I send in forces later on), but I protect Shinano first turn with 6 units. (2 from Echigo as well) This works, but it's a pain. I have to keep sending troops into Shinano, as Imagawa keeps attacking. I usually team up with Takeda to wipe out Hojo. And then I wipe out Takeda as well. I can well imagine that your strategy works faster. (better) So, in my next campaign, I'll have to try. :beam:Quote:
My favorite opening strategy as Uesugi in the original Sengoku campaign requires two well-fought bridge battles with basic troops early on. I abandon Hida and Shinano on Turn 1, shifting all forces east to take Hitachi on Turn 3, and Shimosa on Turn 4, destroying Hojo troop production within the first year. After another bridge battle in Musashi a few turns later, the Hojo are wiped out, and my income more than doubled. Shortly thereafter, I retake Shinano permanently, attacking from Echigo, Kozuke and Musashi simultaneously. As Echigo and Musashi are river provinces, they require far fewer troops to defend effectively, allowing me to stack in Shinano.
Gah! I do have one MP memory about fog as well. Very scary, though it went well. Was a 1v1 against ehh... RabidGibbon. Ah yes. I think to think to come up with a name. ~:) Such battles/moments are very memorable, I have numerous more. Makes me sad again that's there's no MP crowd left anymore. :no:Quote:
I will never forget one MP battle, 3v3, in which Paolino Paperino came at me unseen through fog with his wingm8 supporting, very rapidly from the beginning of the game. I was totally surprised, had no time to think or plan or even type "HHHHELLLEPPPP!!!!" All of a sudden his entire army was right on top of me.
I don't really use the Kensai of BFN, because usually when I can train them it's very late in the game, I don't actually need more troops to finish the last stage, and it takes long to train these. I used them occasionally though. I liked about Kensai that it usually took 0 losses while improving it's honour level. :yes: