Jews: Why the animosity towards them?

I suppose its basically the fact that their religion has been around for so long, and that for much of that time they have been living in societies into which they were never allowed to integrate, not having their own homeland since the Khazar Khanate IIRC.

I remember at a couple of lectures on anti-semitism in the midde-ages the fact that Christian rulers felt responsble to accept Jews as the 'chosen people', but at the same time physically sectioned them off with walls into small areas of the various towns and cities led to a lack of understanding between the two religions and allowed the 'demonising' of the Jews.

And since then they've been ideal scapegoats for whoever needs them.

EDIT: As for the race thing, I think we've got to accept that we have characteristics inherited from our ancestors, the debate is just over how far down the family tree you would draw a line and saw thats where your genetics can be said to have been reasonably impacted from.

'Race' and genetics should only ever be used for things such as medical purposes. Finding out why some groups of people are particularly resistant to certain dieases and things like that.

It should never have an impact on society and the way people are viewed. The effects 'race' would have on a persons characteristics and abilities is as far as I can see in the modern world is just about non-existent.

And it is ridiculous when racists talk about themselves as being the master race. Take Scotland for example. People may initially think they are 'Celtic', but in reality they are a combination of Britons, Goidils, Picts, Norse, Saxons, Angles, Jutes, and probably many more ancient peoples. And of course you can in turn trace them back. Goidils for example have thier links to the Basques, and according to other posters here they are linked to sub-Saharan Africa.

EDIT 2: Not that I've ever heard talk of a Celtic master race, just an example.:sweatdrop:

Fear your ginger-haired overlords!:whip:

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EDIT 2: Not that I've ever heard talk of a Celtic master race, just an example.

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Explore the web , Celtic supremecists are around just like all the other supremecist nuts .:shrug:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Explore the web , Celtic supremecists are around just like all the other supremecist nuts .:shrug:

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lol, I'll have to have a look at that.:laugh4:

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It was about a Jewish boy in Nazi Germany and he was trying to blend in to survive.

There was a scene with a teacher in the class and he was talking about the anatomical differences, skull measurements, what made a real Arier and that he would immediately see who wasn't one. Then he slowly walked down the class and stopped at our boy: "Now look at him'. ... "While he doesn't have blue eyes, he's a real Arier, he's brown eyes like our Fuhrer'

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Europe Europe is the movie, right?

I think that person was still alive, at the end.

I can partially explain how the money-grubbing stereotype arose. My main source is James Mitchner books.

In most of Europe Jews were not permitted to own land, so they were not employed at farming like 90% of the population. Usually most lucrative commodities markets (salt, beer, etc) were monopolized by a king or local noble, so they were excluded from those. Anti-semetic nobles and bishops often forbade them from practicing other trades as well. Most Jews in Europe were poor ghetto dwellers. Somehow they maintained their cohesion and tradition, and those few who prospered economically had to find innovative ways to do it.

For most of the middle ages the Catholic church was opposed to usury. On occasion they banned usury altogether, but the need for a credit system was strong enough that they adopted a work around. Bishops decided that it was sinful (read illegal) for a Christian to charge interest on another christian. But, Jewish people were exempted from these statutes.

Why the persecution?

Because they were a determinedly visible minority.
Because banking was one of the few methods of advancement for jews.
Because the christian majority was forced to go cap-in-hand to those rich jews to borrow money.
Because bankrupt christian rulers found it easier to expel jews than make good on their loans.

Eating babies, killing The Big C, and the 'pound-of-flesh' are merely excuses to justify persecution.

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

They do exist, but they are not seperate! Very important distinction.

:egypt:

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for interest:
http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/200...map-of-europe/

I still think that religious (but not too intelligent) and quite agressive (at least one war per 5 years) people blamed Jews for killing Jezus.

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Originally Posted by Furunculu5

for interest:
http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/200...map-of-europe/

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I have to point out that these maps are based on national identity, not racial identity. The two are not interchangeable. How would you fit the Jewish 'race' into such a map? And so forth for dozens more populations within these groups that are commonly presumed to be races.

Very interesting statistical analysis, however, particularly the surprising (IMHO) isolation of the Polish and the dramatic reversal of obvious locality in the case of UK vs Irish intermarriage. I would like to see more nations included, but I can well imagine why reliable data is not available for some of the next countries to logically include in the map.

:egypt:

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Originally Posted by Martok

(Note: I suppose this could be considered more Backroom-ish material by some, so mods feel free to move this as you see fit.)


The title of this thread says it all, really. Why have the Jewish people been so persistently oppressed & persecuted throughout the centuries -- seemingly regardless of region, nation, or time period? I don't know if it's because I'm American or what, but I've always been utterly baffled as to why this is.

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I think it's mainly because, other than the Biblical Kingdom, the Jews have not had a very large representation in political and cultural areas. Particular Christain hate could be contributed to the fact that the Jews wanted Jesus killed, and continue not to accept him as Messiah. It can be compared to the Gypsies, a people not very well represented in politics, and have had a history of oppression.

Of couse racial differences still exist. It doesn't mean that white people are a different species from black people, it just means there are a few, very minor, biological differences between different races. It is not coincidence that Jewish people have large noses nowadays, it is clearly a genetic trait. It is pointless to deny that such traits exist.

Of course, it is even more ridiculous to claim that these genetic traits have any significant affects on a person's character or intelligence. Racism as we have known it in past centuries should not be tolerated at all, but we should allow scientists to accept that by observing the genetic differences of racial groups they can disover why some are so vulnerable to certain diseases (eg Black/Hamitic/whatever sub-division being more susceptible to the AIDS virus), and save lives trough comparing their DNA to that of other ethnic groups.

Also I think the talk of all Jewish states being intolerant is a little harsh. The Khazar Khanate was a Jewish state in which there were many Orthodox Christians and Muslims. And that was around 700 AD.

From a Christian perspective, the extent of anti-Semitism (as in anti-Jews/Judaism, not all Semitic peoples eg Arabs that the term suggests) is hard to logically explain without looking into Biblical prophecy. Especially considering how rapidly attitudes towards Jews within Europe could fluctuate (look back to Japtheh in Shem's tent). On the one hand the Popes of the early middle-ages issued Jews with badges stating they were Jewish (so Hitler or the Baghdad Caliph's weren't the first to do this), although unlike in the two cases in the brackets this was for their own protection, with the Pope respecting their position as God's chosen people. But then attitudes changed so quickly with Jews being persectued as the murderer's of Christ and being kicked out of Spain in 1492 and in other European states shortly after. It was not until the growth of the reformed churches that scripture was again respected on the matter of the Jews - one example being Cromwell allowing Jews to return to England for the first time since the 13th Century, but they were promptly expelled by the Anglican (openly Anglican, Catholic really) monarchs that succeeded him.

Just my :2cents:

Just by way of an FYI CR, Jewish people do not have large noses in a statistically significant prevalence. That's a simple minded bit of bigotry that you may have heard in an innocent context, but it is no less absurd for it.

People with black skin color are no more 'vulnerable' to AIDS than they are genetically 'vulnerable' to being arrested. Sociological factors account for both equally well.

The point of this thread has been to demonstrate that genetics and racial identity do not correlate in any meaningful way. I'm not sure if you posted those two, frankly offensive, mischaracterizations in a trolling way or just because you didn't know better, but I'd recommend you look into the topic a little more deeply before making such assertions again.

:egypt:

A lot of the main 'features' of a the claimed Jewish racial profile simply correspond to general slavic features. Askenazi Jews and Slavs are mostly impossible to tell apart if they are otherwise dressed the same. The nose is also not unique to Jews in any way. Large noses are also associated with Italians (Roman Nose) and French (Gallic Nose), yet neither of those cultures have any significant genetic ties to Askenazi Jews. When it comes down to it, these are all just varied human phenotypes that do not really correspond to a race in any scientific sense. Jews may be considered to be a different race by some people, including some Jews, but there's no real biological basis for it. All differences are almost entirely based in culture and religion, and the phenotypes are associated with them via stereotyping.

Jews may even identify themselves as a separate race sometimes (see my earlier comments in this thread) but that is once again almost entirely based on cultural traits rather than physical ones. If you're looking for a Jewish race, examining DNA is not the path to take. The Jews are a separate people in the same sense that the Scots or Irish are a separate people. The thing that is confusing about Jews is that unlike Scots and Irish, Jews do not historically come from any one particular place. We are all over the world and yet have managed to maintain a cultural identity. This confuses many people and makes them look to a biological affinity to explain the cultural connections and the reasons why the Jews never assimiliated completely into their local communities, as so many other peoples did over history.

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

People with black skin color are no more 'vulnerable' to AIDS than they are genetically 'vulnerable' to being arrested. Sociological factors account for both equally well.

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I don't have a source to back it up since it's only something I heard on the news, but IIRC there is some sort of biological defence that many people have developed in tropical areas of Africa that protects them against forms of malaria, but in turn makes them more vulnerable to AIDS.

On the issue of Jews stereotypically having large noses, why are people so easily offended by this? In Scotland, why do so many people have ginger hair (including myself, just about)? It is through genetics and on a larger scale the ancestry of many of the Scottish people. That is all the term "race" really means. It doesn't mean we're all different species. It doesn't make me better or worse than anyone with black hair. So why pretend that my hair is the same colour as most people's? There's no point sticking your head in the sand, in the end that just makes it out to be a bigger issue than it really is.

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Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr

I don't have a source to back it up since it's only something I heard on the news, but IIRC there is some sort of biological defence that many people have developed in tropical areas of Africa that protects them against forms of malaria, but in turn makes them more vulnerable to AIDS.

On the issue of Jews stereotypically having large noses, why are people so easily offended by this? In Scotland, why do so many people have ginger hair (including myself, just about)? It is through genetics and on a larger scale the ancestry of many of the Scottish people. That is all the term "race" really means. It doesn't mean we're all different species. It doesn't make me better or worse than anyone with black hair. So why pretend that my hair is the same colour as most people's? There's no point sticking your head in the sand, in the end that just makes it out to be a bigger issue than it really is.

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You really shouldn't listen to the news at all, or listen more closely. The color of the people's skin has no correlation to the prevalance of sickle cell in their heredity (That's what helps protect against malaria). This has already been discussed extensively in this thread. Large numbers of people with every color of skin, eyes, hair, and most any other standard race descriptor you can imagine carry the sickle cell gene. The entire 'black' population of southern Africa does not carry the sickle cell gene. Personally I'm not aware of sickle cell making carriers more vulnerable to AIDS but I don't know enough about the topic to say it's not the case.

The reason for the sensitivity to the 'big nose' stereotype is historically obvious, and would likely require violating Godwin's law to even attempt to discuss. Believe me, there are no few people who find it offensive to be referred to as 'ginger' as well.

For the record I'm not, as far as I know, substantially of Jewish heredity so I'm not offended except in a general sort of 'why perpertuate that nonsense' kind of way.

:egypt:

Normally "Big Jew nose" is accompanied with a slur.

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Big Jew nose is no more a scientific fact than Armenian girls growing moustache after 11 years or blacks having 3 aortae.

:hide:
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Oh well obviously I have just accepted some stereotypes without thinking about them much.

Jews tend to fit in, they just aren't different enough, easy to assume they are plotting.

I was going to make a joke here, involving a long diatribe about the "Great Satan" and the Jews "controlling the world" through the arm of the United States government, the media, and Hollywood, and passing references to some other vile things that should not be repeated.

The punchline was supposed to be that I was told all this by a bearded man driving a "ticking car" who seemed to be in a "real hurry" to get somewhere.




For some reason, I thought it might offend someone. I think I'm getting soft in my old age. :shame:

With such small populations, they are often the scapegoat for governments that need to unite the majority populace. For example: The plague stirred up trouble and blame directed on the minority in Germany. Spanish were having problems with the two empires on the Iberian penninsula so they expelled/murdered the Jews and recently converted Christian-Jews.

I think the size of the group and how spread out they are has had the most impact.

How about another reply
- Jews started massive murdering first Christians.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

How about another reply
- Jews started massive murdering first Christians.

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I believe the Romans did as well. Why no animosity towards the Romans?


In all seriousness, if people are concerned about crimes which happened 2 thousand years ago, then I think it's high time we offer the Jews reparations for slavery... in EGYPT.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

How about another reply
- Jews started massive murdering first Christians.

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Evidence?

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

I believe the Romans did as well. Why no animosity towards the Romans?

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Why no animosity to Romans?

Because it's the Jews!!

It's gotten to the point where whenever I hear someone say the word "Jew", I assume they have something defamatory, slanderous, and racist to say about them.

I've never been personally maligned by a person of Jewish descent or of Jewish faith. That does not mean I automatically agree with everything they believe or do, but I do not see the harm. As for the Israeli situation, since Israel is made up of Jews, Christians, and Muslims, you can't simply blame the Jews for the Israeli/Palestinian standoff. I've also noticed that when Israel acts, it is in self-defense, and then retreats back to their own soil, while the stated goals of the Arab groups who border Israel is to destroy Israel itself and drive them into the sea. They violate numerous cease-fires and fire into crowds of innocent civilians with rocket launchers and use bombs to devastate markets. I don't recall Israel ever attempting to exterminate Arab civilians.

It's kind of hard not to take a side here. But it's also a separate discussion from the Jewish animosity question, so I will shaddap. I understand there are militant Jews who are radical extremists who would do anything to defend Israel, but compared to the sheer number of anti-Jewish extremists, it's hard to blame them. For as long as these militant extremists exist, there can be no peace settlement between the two sides.

And until mankind learns to leave the horrors of the past in the past, and simply learn from past mistakes, the old hatreds and ignorance will never die. Like a virus, it is passed on from one generation to another, instead of dying naturally along with its host .

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Originally Posted by KrooK

How about another reply
- Jews started massive murdering first Christians.

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that is quite literally a worthless comment.


now here is where i interject with a generalising comment:

in all my travel around the world, and given my polish girlfriend leading me to spend a lot of time in poland, never have i come across a nation with such an all-encompassing acceptance that jews are the cause of all their nations troubles, not to be trusted, and outright devious as a race. It is pervasive among the over forties, less so for the younger generations.
the phrase; "he is a jew" is used with a casual loathing that really is something to behold, and this from people i otherwise like and respect.

fortunately it appears to be a dieing trend as the grip of the catholic church lessens and millions of young poles live abroad.

This is something that has been bothering me.

Jews, gays, blacks, arabs, etc...

These groups are often scapegoats and are blamed for society's problems. I am especially offended whenever some reverend or pastor stands up and begins condemning homosexuality as being immoral. I often scratch my head and think to myself... why them? The rational explanation, if any, that they give is because sexual activity and promiscuity outside the realm of traditional marriage leads to the spread of disease. But at the same time, I think to myself how guilty of that straight people are... so it makes no sense to focus exclusively on the gays. Then they quote passages from the Bible, Torah, or Qu'ran (all stemming from Leviticus 18) which states:

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviticus_18
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

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But they conveniently ignore passages from the Bible, Torah, or Qu'ran which condemn other activities. I'm not even quoting the most ridiculous of them:

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http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/20.html#9
20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

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If you should ever swear and or insult your parents, you're supposed to be killed on the spot.

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http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/21.html#9
21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

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If the daughter of a priest (oooh, just the priests' daughter? What about a cardinal, rabbi, or imam? What about the rest of us) profanes herself by "playing the whore" (interpret as you will), we need to burn her to death.

Then there are certain passages dealing with what kinds of meat you are allowed to eat, and when you are allowed to eat them. I know everyone here knows exactly what I'm talking about, and follows these laws as strictly as they interpret the passage about men lying with men.
:yes:


And it's such a small portion of the book. Why they spend all day, every day, rallying against the gays, instead of giving them "equal time" with all the other so-called sins... isn't that twisting and warping the word of "God" to give so much weight to one part of his "written word" and almost no attention to the other parts?

We can find plenty of people who can quote the anti-gay part of Leviticus. How many of us here can quote the parts where people "begat" other people for generations? Hmmm? Isn't that important stuff? It's the word of the Lord, so I wonder why people aren't paying as much attention to that. Frankly, if I were convinced something was the WORD OF GOD I would memorize that sh:daisy:.

So, other than organized religion, there's very little reason to condemn gayness. So let's move on.
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Jews.

My, oh my, have they been given a bum rap. Everything in the world is apparently their fault.

:wall:

If you've seen a list of things people blame the Jews for, then you've noticed that it just gets longer and longer, and more ridiculous as we go along. Apparently, the Jews control the world economy, and are the puppet masters of world politics, and control Hollywood and the mass media, and are in control of the Christians who follow them, and they control the entire West.

Yes, given how much influence Jews have, it's amazing how history has treated them. These people, if they indeed have so much control over the world, must all be masochistic. I am beginning to wonder if there was a century where the Jews were not mass murdered or otherwise persecuted. Lets' check the history books.

20th century, ummm genocide.
19th century, Dreyfus Trial, pogroms in Russia.
18th century, stuggles for emancipation and equal treatment (almost a breath of fresh air)
17th century, hundreds of thousands slaughtered by the Cossacks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chmielnicki_uprising
16th century, end of the Inquisition, expulsion from European nations by force
15th century, Spanish Inquisition
14th century, 100,000 Jews expelled from France, subjected to the Shepherd's crusades http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherds%27_Crusade
13th century, Banning from England, first Shepherd's crusade.
12th century, Second Crusade, Jews in France frequently massacred.
11th century, German Crusade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Crusade,_1096
10th century, (still checking... all I found so far was that the newly appointed Fatmid Caliph of Islam persecuted Jews)

Dark ages get pretty sketchy. But we do know Jews were persecuted and forced to convert to Islam, whenever they were found in conquered territory. Then prior to that, the Romans treated the jews pretty poorly... early christianity (prior to Islam) treated the jews very poorly. Christians hated the jews very much so. Around 0AD and into BC times, Jews were persecuted by the Romans, and prior to that there was something that happened in Egypt involving a lot of slavery.

And that covers most of Jewish history that I, a non-Jew, can easily find. I am quite certain someone who is a Jewish scholar could fill in the blanks of what I am missing. But this is very telling:

According to James Carroll, "Jews accounted for 10% of the total population of the Roman Empire. By that ratio, if other factors had not intervened, there would be 200 million Jews in the world today, instead of something like 13 million."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine%27s_Sword


I think we can safely conclude that the Jews are not in possession of the world, and that they are therefore NOT the source of all the world's problems. Duh.

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Black people;

Enslaved for centuries by European traders and settlers, conquered and persecuted and butchered by European Imperialism, conquered and forced to convert to Islam by Arab invaders, and otherwise maligned since the time of the Roman empire.

I would do them justice by adding more, but it's almost time for me to go to work. And never once did I find that a large nubian empire went around conquering everyone. The only people that black people seem to have persecuted were other black people, and recently, white minorities (I wonder why?)

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Arabs; conquered by Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, armies of Islam, Crusaders, European Imperialists, and now they fight amongst themselves for having slightly different interpretations of Islam. Plus that whole Iraq thing.

Since 9/11 they have been hated by the entire West, because most Arabs are Muslim, and apparently all Muslims are guilty of the crimes of their minority extremists.

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I could do this for every single minority group. If you don't vastly outnumber people, you've been hated and persecuted, for no reason whatsoever.

Why the animosity towards the Jews? For the same reasons that there is animosity towards any group. A combination of ignorance, blind hatred, greed, envy, desire for power, lies, propaganda, religion and superstition, and a wonderful thing called tradition.

I conclude that the human race needs to be lined up, and slapped in the face repeatedly, one at a time, until everyone knows what it feels like to be persecuted.
:clown:

Actually the only solution is education, tolerance laws and legal justice, and the hope that hate and ignorance dies naturally with the current generations.

This thread seems to have run it's course and I think it's best to let Askthepizzaguy's post be the last.

This is the Monastery and not the Backroom on a bad day.


CBR