Swords and Sorcery Mafia Without the Swords [Concluded]

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Originally Posted by Csargo

It's the name of the spell, like Lewwyn said. I didn't use it on BSmith no.

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Oh, durr. Thanks. Umm, you should probably out that before next dawn, lest the information die with you.

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Originally Posted by atheotes

Hmm...i targeted and Al Sips had visited. that is all i know. I am not sure if i would see the redirector if that was used. What did you do?
I am assuming that the scum can use powers in addition to Factional kill. i think someone mentioned a Mana drain. Any effect on your mana? were you Roleblocked?

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I haven't said yet what I did other than I didn't self-protect (hide, bp myself, whatever), so if Al Sips was there to kill me, there must have been another factor involved in my survival. Yet you're saying you saw nobody else.

No effect on my mana. I'm not going to rule RB either in or out at this point.

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

I'm wondering if it's simply that easy and Visor/atheotes are our last two.

But see, this is me tunneling so I'm going to look elsewhere. Probably Snerk and/or Arakhor.

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That wasn't tunnelling at all.

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

I have less of a baseline on Snerk/Arakhor to work with and I want to start correcting that. Plus, Sooh's giving us less atm than the other two.

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What a scummy reasoning. Why are making scummy posts today?

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Originally Posted by Csargo

Is this not exactly how Visor plays as town? He seems normal to me. I thought his argument was interesting at least...

Also, @Montmorency I Detected Corruption on someone and they were not corrupted, so unless I got redirected or some other nonsense it should be correct. I'm not gonna say who for obvious reasons unless you guys come after me with the pitchforks...

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Can confirm that the mentioned spell sounds similar to mine. Thing is, according to the claims there is now at least three people who have used an alignment scan n1. Seems OP for town. Someone is lying or scums have significant counter to this. Csargo I'd preferred if you went public with your result. At any rate Winston is already claimed scanned uncorrupt.

Agreed.

GH.

OK. Snerk, are you going to out yours?

I already have. Failed scan on Sooh.

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Originally Posted by Renata

I haven't said yet what I did other than I didn't self-protect (hide, bp myself, whatever), so if Al Sips was there to kill me, there must have been another factor involved in my survival. Yet you're saying you saw nobody else.

No effect on my mana. I'm not going to rule RB either in or out at this point.

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well, maybe he wasnt there to kill you. i cant think of anything else right now. I targeted you and Al Sips had visited
Too many seer/watch/track actions. so the scum probably have options to counter them. I am thinking about ignoring these and just focusing on reads for now.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

I already have. Failed scan on Sooh.

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My memory sucks rocks. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by atheotes

well, maybe he wasnt there to kill you. i cant think of anything else right now. I targeted you and Al Sips had visited
Too many seer/watch/track actions. so the scum probably have options to counter them. I am thinking about ignoring these and just focusing on reads for now.

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Probably the best idea.

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Originally Posted by atheotes

I am thinking about ignoring these and just focusing on reads for now.

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Welcome to the righteous path, my friend. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Renata

Probably the best idea.

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Welcome to the righteous path, my friend. :yes:

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So much disagree!! These games truly shine when you can pause boring attempts at tone reads and focus on getting lost in the maze of spreadsheets of conflicting ability uses! :bounce:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Arakhor - 60 posts so far. This will exclude the socialization stuff.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First post is a vote against Csargo. Clearly RVS. Tiniest of "not likely scum together" but not even worth talking about.



This post is a response to atheotes calling Visor town. Here we start to see the hedge, though this is Arakhor's M.O. Could be interpreted as a slight disagreement with the mutual Visor/atheotes townread, not enough info on their flips yet to make a ruling about associatives. Commentary on Renata but not an opinion about her.



More of the same, an easy interaction with Csargo plus a further questioning of Visor/atheotes. Don't think they'd do this much distancing at this early stage of the game.



Six hour gap between the last post and this one, in which I called Arakhor out for hedging. He has a fairly reasonable-sounding defense for this. Continues to be voting for Csargo.



This is in reference to Al Sipsclar's one early vote. Doesn't appear to take an opinion on it.



Okay here we go. He appears to be defending Winston (who looks good now), drops the "too scummy" defense on Al (does a scumbuddy resort to this halfway through D1?), and appears to be shading Visor a bit.



Votes Al Sipsclar and telegraphs his reasoning for doing so. Bit awkward, could be seen as him giving up on Al reappearing/potential distancing.



This was in response to Visor asking him about Al Sips.







These last three posts were in reponse to a case/vote from Renata as per his previous hedginess. I do think I like the tone here.





Continuing the argument above, click on the posts themselves for context. I do like him standing his ground here.



I questioned him about his earlier read on Monty, he responds.







This is a bit of a back-and-forth with DP and I think this is probably the sequence of posts that looks best for Arakhor, mainly because DP is voting for him and yet Arakhor's umbrage seems natural.



Another tangle with Renata. At this point I'm pretty confident that they're not scum together (though I don't think Renata's scum anyway).



This is 30 minutes before EOD1 with Arakhor getting in a tangle for Monty (again, click the post for context). He's been somewhat scumreading Monty all day so this at least fits in.



More tussling with Monty.

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Posts a bunch of tallies as the usual EOD flurry is upon us, and then with two minutes to go, responds to this post from Al:





Which is really, really weird to be focusing on if Arakhor's scum and two of his partners (Al Sips and Dp101) are the lead wagons at this point. Just odd and I think I'm ready to clear Arakhor.



Final post before end of day. Again, really weird to be coming from if he's mafia considering the circumstances.

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End of Day 1
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I don't want to read into his N1 and D2, I think I have enough here. Will revisit this down the road if I need to.

Conclusion: He's got an interaction with Dp looks good, no weird progressions, and behavior at EOD1 that I don't think comes from mafia considering the circumstances of the lynch. Arakhor can be town for a while.

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I guess I agree with your final conclusion -- he looks pretty pure around EoD for someone who'd have to be facing w/w/w wagons if he's scum -- but I don't like your giving so much weight to that one very minor Dp interaction while practically ignoring the much more suggestive reactions to Al Sips. Even Al Sips' comment that Arakhor's just got a grudge reads to me as potential distancing from someone who's on the chopping block, as much as it does an actual attempt to get Arakhor in trouble again.

I'd try one, maybe two other options before Arakhor but I don't even see him being out of my POE.

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Originally Posted by atheotes

Interesting that you felt the need to clarify that you meant Dp.
Vote: Sooh

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What do you mean?

DP was the only scum that had flipped up until then. There might have been other scummies bussing elsewhere. Or are you implying that I knew there were other scummies bussing elsewhere?

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Originally Posted by Snerk

OK but if your reads were already typed out, why delay them to the day? Why so confident you were going to survive the night?

That is a good call indeed, specially considering that BSmith was acting kinda scummy.

I stand by my leans from earlier. With Winston getting a boost and Visor taking a dip.

Sooh or Atheotes. Alternatively Visor or Renata.

vote: Sooh

I want to know why my scan of Sooh failed.

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You tell me! I can see exactly two spells in my selection that might make it so that your spell didn't work. There's a jailor and a roleblocker.

Snerk - 30 posts at the time of writing. Again, I'll be removing all of the socialization stuff.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Originally Posted by Snerk

I'm 100% sure Renata is scum. You're welcome.

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First post (#13 overall), RVS. Socialization with Renata continues for a bit.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

Choxorn for defeatism. CFC will pull a phoenix and rise from the ashes.









Right?

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Definitely seems relaxed and flow-y early D1, at any rate.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

Too much blabber? Members of the jury, I would like to direct your attention to page one of this thread.

Back to Renata. Glasshouses and all that.

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Renata calls out Snerk for too much blabber, Snerk calls Renata right back for her Page 1 flurry.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

You think edits are bad, you should see my typos. But I'll try.

Disagree. Her frantic opening to a recent all business approach. I'm getting a scum vibe.

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Disagreement is re: my townread on Renata, he's standing his ground early.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

That's oversimplifying it. But in general, scum cares more than town, no? I know I do when I'm scum.

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Good to file away for future reference.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

Might be. Would surprise me though. Would you say that there's no correlation between your level of enthusiasm towards a game, and the role you're given in said game?

Anybody know if Winston, BSmith or Csargo is active elsewhere?

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Continuing to question Renata on stuff, I'm seeing solve-y behavior towards the people he isn't familiar with. This is reinforcing my D1 townread of Snerk for good tone, at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

Wasn't talking about effort into solving the game, was talking about effort in general. On average I undeniable put more effort into games I'm scum, and work harder to get out of a possible lynch then I do when town. I don't understand your point.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

I'm not a mind reader so personal experiences is the best outset available to me.

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This is his final salvos in his argument with Zack, still not backing down.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

It always turns into a different thing. With all my views pornographically warped into some extreme with zero view for any nuance.


OK but tbf he's never played with me before.

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Defends me a bit against Zack for one of my posts.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

Why are my effort levels scummy?

I'm not onboard this train at all. But I liked their confrontation last page.

Sorry didn't know edits were not allowed. This is odd it's highly unusual for me to brake any game rules.

This is bang on but for what it's worth Arakhor is a hedge-y kind of guy regardless of alignment.

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idk, so far I'm reading Snerk's responses to the whole "effort level as scum vs. town" discussion as honestly confused townie. He does also appear to be solving. We also have our first interaction with one of the flipped scums, openly disagreeing with Dp101 about Zack/Winston looking townie.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

It's certainly possible.Who's your best candidate for the lynch today and why?

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Response to Renata asking him about moving his vote from her, seems to be genuinely trying to figure her out.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

Congratulations, you have better memory than me. :)

The reason I asked is that I don't see my efforts thus far as all that constructive. So I don't really follow the logic, but I guess I sort of see where it's coming from.

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This is Snerk's final post of D1, continuing his line of argument about the whole effort discussion in response to Winston. After this point he departs the thread for a bit over 24 hours, which is kind of aggravating. His reaction to the lynch (after the flip) was as follows:

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Originally Posted by Snerk

I still think we should have lynched Renata.

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Which is weird but still kind of townie? I'm probably projecting a bit but I think scum would be more likely to put down something like "wow lol, gj town", etc.

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D2
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Originally Posted by Snerk

GeneralHankerchief:
Huge summary post and lots of reads. Seems mostly on the ball. Al vote is null. TOWN
Montmorency:
Dp vote looks pure. TOWN
Choxorn:
Votes Dp when the Al wagon was forming, unscummy IMO. I liked his post lynch summary posts. TOWN
Atheotes:
Don’t like his I’ll be back later with reads. Part of the Montmorency wagon scums tried as a last push for a mislynch. SCUM
Arakhor:
Seems samey as previous town games. Dp made an unbussy Arakhor vote. TOWN
Visor:
Kinda unreadable. Third on Al wagon. TOWN
Csargo:
Pure gut but if scummy then why not bus yesterday since one scum was going down anyway? TOWN
Winston Hughes:
Very untidy reaction to pressure. TOWN/SCUM
Kcaz:
I guess liked his Winston confrontation. TOWN
Sooh
On neither scum wagons. Her beef with Zack looks a little opportunistic. I can see her not wanting to bus. My attempt at learning more about Sooh last night was thwarted. SCUM
Renata:
Not completely giving up my Renata tunneling. Her early Al vote seems unconstructive as scum. But her game opening WAS scummy. She pushed for Arakhor/Winston wagon over the mafia wagons until a scum lynch was inevitable. TOWN/SCUM
Lewwyn:
IMO his early Dp vote is towny due to an Al wagon also forming. TOWN

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This was his first post of D2. Some of these reads come out of nowhere due to him not really having interacted with/given opinions on everybody D1, but from what I see none of his progressions are out of the ordinary. His atheotes reasoning (vote timing) was incorrect, which I pointed out and he responded below (in addition to others reacting):

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Originally Posted by Snerk

Right you are, it's earlier. Page 2 early.

Eventually. Can people claim (if only softclaim) nightly activities pls.

Less.

BSmith kill doesn't make sense. If it's a vig pls claim it whoever. Al kill could be a busdriver or something?

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In order: These quotes are responding to:
1) me correcting him about atheotes
2) Monty asking him about his Sooh read and night action.
3) Renata not sure if Snerk keeping his tunnel on her makes him more or less scummy.
4) Zack talking about the BSmith kill and how he likely wasn't a mafia target.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

No that's perfectly possible too. But it's a remarkably good shot if so. I had Al down as town just due to being the alt scum wagon. Two scum wagons d1 happens, but not very often.

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Asked if Al was a straight-up vig shot.

A couple of mechanics posts, and then:

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Originally Posted by Snerk

Easily the scummiest post d2.

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Takes umbrage to my "mechanics talk is boring as crap" post, which I guess checks out because he doesn't realize that it's basically my signature move to hate that sort of thing. Notably doesn't respond to my follow-up about said meta though.

12 hour break from the thread, and then his next post:

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Originally Posted by Snerk

OK but if your reads were already typed out, why delay them to the day? Why so confident you were going to survive the night?

That is a good call indeed, specially considering that BSmith was acting kinda scummy.

I stand by my leans from earlier. With Winston getting a boost and Visor taking a dip.

Sooh or Atheotes. Alternatively Visor or Renata.

vote: Sooh

I want to know why my scan of Sooh failed.

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Is in response to atheotes's weird "these reads are out of date but here they are anyway!" post, in addition to following up his suspicions on Sooh for his scan of her failing. Visor pops into his scum list for the first time, seemingly without explanation. Will ask clarification on this in a new post.

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Originally Posted by Snerk

That wasn't tunnelling at all.

What a scummy reasoning. Why are making scummy posts today?

Can confirm that the mentioned spell sounds similar to mine. Thing is, according to the claims there is now at least three people who have used an alignment scan n1. Seems OP for town. Someone is lying or scums have significant counter to this. Csargo I'd preferred if you went public with your result. At any rate Winston is already claimed scanned uncorrupt.

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Continues to take issue with my D2 posts, more mechanical stuff.

Conclusion: Nothing clearing, but not much scummy either. Let's say light town.

Snerk - In your early D2 reads post here you had Visor as town, but later on put him in your possible scum list in this post, seemingly without indication that you had changed your mind. What caused you to do a 180 like this?

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Originally Posted by Sooh

You tell me! I can see exactly two spells in my selection that might make it so that your spell didn't work. There's a jailor and a roleblocker.

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Are you claiming you did not Hide yourself?

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Originally Posted by Renata

Are you claiming you did not Hide yourself?

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I didn't Hide.

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Originally Posted by Renata

I guess I agree with your final conclusion -- he looks pretty pure around EoD for someone who'd have to be facing w/w/w wagons if he's scum -- but I don't like your giving so much weight to that one very minor Dp interaction while practically ignoring the much more suggestive reactions to Al Sips. Even Al Sips' comment that Arakhor's just got a grudge reads to me as potential distancing from someone who's on the chopping block, as much as it does an actual attempt to get Arakhor in trouble again.

I'd try one, maybe two other options before Arakhor but I don't even see him being out of my POE.

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Didn't read it from Al's end of it. Here's the post in question for reference:

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Originally Posted by Al Sipsclar

I think Arakhor wants to get back at me after our last game together, where I was scum, and the first D1 opening post, which was Arakhor's, was "Al has fooled me before but not anymore", he suspected me whole game, but eventually lost.

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I guess I can kind of see it, and there's a couple of awkward interactions on both sides of it, but on balance I still have Arakhor as leaning town.

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Snerk - In your early D2 reads post here you had Visor as town, but later on put him in your possible scum list in this post, seemingly without indication that you had changed your mind. What caused you to do a 180 like this?

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Didn't like that he argued for disregarding Sooh and Atheotes as lynch candidates today. So he essentially traded places with Winston for a place among my tier two suspects.

what did you do last night sooh?

I really think it's just Visor today.

Vote: Visor

atheotes, why didn't you post your reads during the night... you know, during the night?

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Originally Posted by atheotes

Winston - i always find the "would i do it as scum?" defense very scummy.

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Of course it's scummy. That's why I'd never use it as scum.

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Snerk - 30 posts at the time of writing. Again, I'll be removing all of the socialization stuff.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First post (#13 overall), RVS. Socialization with Renata continues for a bit.



Definitely seems relaxed and flow-y early D1, at any rate.



Renata calls out Snerk for too much blabber, Snerk calls Renata right back for her Page 1 flurry.



Disagreement is re: my townread on Renata, he's standing his ground early.



Good to file away for future reference.



Continuing to question Renata on stuff, I'm seeing solve-y behavior towards the people he isn't familiar with. This is reinforcing my D1 townread of Snerk for good tone, at the very least.





This is his final salvos in his argument with Zack, still not backing down.



Defends me a bit against Zack for one of my posts.



idk, so far I'm reading Snerk's responses to the whole "effort level as scum vs. town" discussion as honestly confused townie. He does also appear to be solving. We also have our first interaction with one of the flipped scums, openly disagreeing with Dp101 about Zack/Winston looking townie.



Response to Renata asking him about moving his vote from her, seems to be genuinely trying to figure her out.



This is Snerk's final post of D1, continuing his line of argument about the whole effort discussion in response to Winston. After this point he departs the thread for a bit over 24 hours, which is kind of aggravating. His reaction to the lynch (after the flip) was as follows:



Which is weird but still kind of townie? I'm probably projecting a bit but I think scum would be more likely to put down something like "wow lol, gj town", etc.

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D2
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This was his first post of D2. Some of these reads come out of nowhere due to him not really having interacted with/given opinions on everybody D1, but from what I see none of his progressions are out of the ordinary. His atheotes reasoning (vote timing) was incorrect, which I pointed out and he responded below (in addition to others reacting):



In order: These quotes are responding to:
1) me correcting him about atheotes
2) Monty asking him about his Sooh read and night action.
3) Renata not sure if Snerk keeping his tunnel on her makes him more or less scummy.
4) Zack talking about the BSmith kill and how he likely wasn't a mafia target.



Asked if Al was a straight-up vig shot.

A couple of mechanics posts, and then:



Takes umbrage to my "mechanics talk is boring as crap" post, which I guess checks out because he doesn't realize that it's basically my signature move to hate that sort of thing. Notably doesn't respond to my follow-up about said meta though.

12 hour break from the thread, and then his next post:



Is in response to atheotes's weird "these reads are out of date but here they are anyway!" post, in addition to following up his suspicions on Sooh for his scan of her failing. Visor pops into his scum list for the first time, seemingly without explanation. Will ask clarification on this in a new post.



Continues to take issue with my D2 posts, more mechanical stuff.

Conclusion: Nothing clearing, but not much scummy either. Let's say light town.

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I like this post more than the Arakhor one. The almost utter lack of interactions with or notice of flipped scum is what gives me most pause.

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Originally Posted by Renata

I like this post more than the Arakhor one. The almost utter lack of interactions with or notice of flipped scum is what gives me most pause.

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The issue with this (and the reason I'm not going after it) is mostly context. He's got one disagreement with Dp, which, okay. With Al Sips though, all but one of Al's posts were made around the time of EoD, and Snerk was AWOL for 24 hours during that time. So he never really got the chance to interact with/comment on Al.

Notice
As I'm sure you've noticed, you haven't received your spell updates. I got bogged down with studying for my Comps yesterday, and didn't have a chance to send them out. You should receive them relatively soon. (Next few hours hopefully)

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

The issue with this (and the reason I'm not going after it) is mostly context. He's got one disagreement with Dp, which, okay. With Al Sips though, all but one of Al's posts were made around the time of EoD, and Snerk was AWOL for 24 hours during that time. So he never really got the chance to interact with/comment on Al.

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I'm not sure of the timing of Al's wagon wrt Snerk's presence in the thread.

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Originally Posted by Renata

I'm not sure of the timing of Al's wagon wrt Snerk's presence in the thread.

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Without going back through the entire thread and checking, I'm guessing the two were unrelated. Snerk was gone from ~23 hours before EOD to ~1 hour after, and I'm not sure there was much movement on Al Sipsclar in the time he was here, mostly because the "huh, Al's still gone, probably not a good look" sentiment would naturally only build later on.