The Magnaura

Ignoring Kantakouzinos, he addresses Savvas.

But the issue is not the money. The issue is that the Caesar built priortized construction before raising armies required by law. The law is cut and dry just like it was when Hypatios violated an Edict.

The Caesar broke the law and none of you can whitewash this very basic fact. And to even attempt it is quite puzzling. So, according to you Savvas, laws can be broken by some people and not others?

If we let the Caesar get away with this, then our very Constitution is worth little more than toilet paper. We might as well have anarchy.

Those who defend the Caesar are stuck defending a lawbreaker pure and simple.

Black and White are colours that exist, so do other colours.

I would argue that I've always stayed objective in my approach. The most effective way to ensure Hypatios was never able to do what he did again was to focus on the law and expressly handle the issue that way due to the emotive topic and the actual death of many thousands of people.

In this case NOTHING in the form of consequences have occurred and there has certainly been no direct deaths at this time. If that was to change then so would my stance. I agree that the likely event of consequences is certainly higher than prior to the Megas's actions, but NO one has died at this time. THAT is a real difference.

I must admit internal faction fighting and squabbling sits poorly with me. That is how I classify this issue. More importantly the situation is reversible and easily done given the appalling error in auditing that has been corrected.

Breaking the law is serious, killing thousands of people because of it, is not of the same weight or significance as this.

If the Megas corrects the issue then it will simply be a incident that was resolved. I hope that is how our Ceasar responds. To do otherwise will invite the impeachment that has been requested.

It seems entirely in his power to turn this issue into one of "temporary non compliance" with the constituation.

Conducting logic debates in the realm of ethical behaviour IS without doubt like trying to mix oil and water. Please don't ask me to explain why that is the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Privateerkev

Ignoring Kantakouzinos, he addresses Savvas.

But the issue is not the money. The issue is that the Caesar built priortized construction before raising armies required by law. The law is cut and dry just like it was when Hypatios violated an Edict.

The Caesar broke the law and none of you can whitewash this very basic fact. And to even attempt it is quite puzzling. So, according to you Savvas, laws can be broken by some people and not others?

If we let the Caesar get away with this, then our very Constitution is worth little more than toilet paper. We might as well have anarchy.

Those who defend the Caesar are stuck defending a lawbreaker pure and simple.

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Oh, but I am sure the Caesar looked at the finances of the empire and then gave his orders, only to notice later, due to incompetent money counters, that the florins that were there when he gave his orders, had been disappeared, thus forcing him to revoke the orders he gave.

I don't believe the mistake made by the Caesar was intentional. And I'm sure it will be rectified in no time.

There's a difference between violating a law intentional or unintentional. And the violation of the law by Hypatios also damaged the Empire as a whole. Where's the damage for our Empire, Makedonios? What disasters have happened because of the non recruiting of units? How many innocents died because the Caesar did not send you a few hundred peasants?

Hypatios' violation is not to be compared with the Caesar's mistake.

By law, you can not temporarily break the law.

There is no going back from this. If we let this go unpunished, then what's next?

Any Megas who knowingly breaks the Constitution deserves immediate impeachment.

The Constitution is a sacred document. Above Edicts. Embraced and supported by this body.

If we let it be assaulted, then we will have no further purpose for the Senate. None.

If someone does not like a part of the Constitution, he can lobby to have it amended. The Caesar bypassed this and used his sole discretion to conveniantely ignore parts of it.

He has therefore bypassed us. If he wanted the power to build buildings before filling legally mandated armies, he should have passed a CA to that affect.

That would have been proper. But he didn't. He ignored us. He thinks he is above the law. So now, the law will need to show him that he isn't.

I will not rest until this man is impeached for his crimes against the Senate.

By law, you can not temporarily break the law. Interesting statement. One that will cause debate amongst our theologians for centuries I believe. The inability to see grey and those areas of greyness is of concern. As there is no ability to engage you in this area Lord Makedonios then I will retire from the debate.

And by all means Lord Makedonios, execute your desires on this topic. I am interested to see what the outcome will be.

The Constitution is black and white. It has to be. There is no grey on this issue. If you ignore, or willfully violate a Rule, then that is in and of itself, against the Rules.

No amount of obfuscation from the Caesar's allies can hide the facts that he treats our Constitution as a minor inconvenience.

I put my trust into the wisdom of the Basileus.

In the end, it's up to him to decide if an Emergency Session is required for this matter.

I hope I won't have to return to this place again, before the next regular Senate Session.

So, a Megas can ignore the Constitution if he has the political allies to support his illegal actions?

This is a dark and sad day in the history of the Empire...

Iakovos returns with even more paperwork then before. He reviews what has been said from one of the Order's scribes.

"May I ask why my concerns about Adana have been shoved under the rug? May I ask why we do not actually speak of taking steps to resolve the troop recruitment issue, and instead become hung up on whether or not what the Caesar has done is illegal, which I believe it is? May I ask what has been done to actually remedy our failing treasury? More money is indeed being spent then is earned, and unless we actually stop this hemorrhaging of our coin, then we will find ourselves discussing the exact same thing we have before senators. So, in the interests of the Empire, shall we put aside our past differences in order to resolve this issue, or will we let our own political interests tear us apart?"

Iakovos, I am afraid you are still young and have much to learn in the Senate. See, when you are really poweful, and have lots of allies, you can do what ever you want. Therefore, our laws are now completely meaningless. In fact, if you wish, you can now simply recruit things from Adana yourself. There is a law that says you can't but the Senate is not concerned about making sure people follow the laws. If there is not enough money in the treasury for recruitment, simply sell off the buildings in cities that are governed by people you happen to not like. It's against the law of course but the Senate has left me convinced that no one will stop you. I have learned today that laws are trivial inconveniences. To be taken seriously if, and only if, it benefits you politically to do so. So go forth and do what is needed to defend Adana. The Senate will be far too busy licking the Caesars backside to stop you.

Turning once again to the Senate.

I'm amazed at the arguments people are coming up with to defend the Caesar. Now, I hear that what he did wasn't that bad because he hasn't happened to kill anyone yet. What is remarkable about that is that the same people did not use morality when it came to Hypatios. Back then I heard killing is just part of war and these things just happen. No, the only point many in here drove home was the fact that Hypatios broke the law. The lives of 6000 meant nothing to these men. Only the audacity of Hypatios ignoring an Edict stirred them. Now all of a sudden breaking the law is perfectly ok if no one dies as a result.

He turns quickly to Iakovos.

Make sure no one dies when you break the law defending Adana.

Turns back to the Senate.

Am I one of the only people in here that cares about the Constitution? So, when someone violates the Constitution at your expense, should I just stay quiet? Or would you hope, as I do, that people will put aside personal politics and defend this fine governing body. If we let this pass, we will set a precedent that will haunt us forever.

Efstathios' scribe looks towards the Grandmaster..

My master, Efstathios Laskaris, cares about the Constitution. He have said before that Caesar is not ready to rule and should learn how to do that in Constantinople and not running on the outskirts of the Empire like a headless chicken. To my Master it seemed that Caesar is running away from the real fight and perhaps building armies in northern Anatolia just to take over the Empire!
Although looks like His words reached the Magnaura too late to make any difference I did mentioned his view on the current matter.

Makedonios turns to the scribe.

I appreciate your master's words. But he, along with all of House Asteri knew this might happen. I warned them quite clearly that the Caesar was going to put people in danger for political reasons. Also, I fear for your master, as well as all of the Crusaders. I believe the Caesar is going to do all he can to make sure the Crusade fails.

And I fear no one will stop him because we don't care about trivial things like "rule of law" here in the Senate.

I know how you feel about your army Makedonios. Last term I was denied my right for the entire term but did anything happen? No, it did not. Ameplas broke a law just the same as I did yet nothing happened. I, on the other hand, lost my rank and was removed from a house of men that I thought were my friends. Now I think I can safely say the whole Empire is against me.

Life is unfair Grandmaster, it's about time you got used to it.

My master took the risk of being abandoned when he joined the Crusade.
Looks like this is the case what happened now.
If I remember correctly then he said .. "there will be a day when this Empire will collapse and this is just because the Nobles aren't afraid of the Senate anymore."
The last time we talked, it was just a hour before he sailed away, he hoped that the Senate will become stronger and make sure that all those who go against the Will of the Senate shall get the maximum punishment!

Hypatios,

If you were truly denied an army, you should have brought it to Kalameteros's attention. Or, announced it in the Senate. No one can deny you the right to a legally mandated army. Period.

If you refused to act, to protect your own rights, you have no one to blame but yourself.

If you want an army now, I'm sure you could just take custody of the one in Iconium. The Senate has led me to believe no one will stop you. It's illegal of course but that is just a petty technicality.

Basically, you were hung out to dry because you became politically inconvenient. Few in here were truly outraged at what you did. Only myself, the rest of the Order, and a couple others. The rest claim to have been mad that you broke a law but they now provide political cover to another lawbreaker.

I would feel sorry for you except for the fact that your a monster.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Privateerkev

Hypatios,

If you were truly denied an army, you should have brought it to Kalameteros's attention. Or, announced it in the Senate. No one can deny you the right to a legally mandated army. Period.

If you refused to act, to protect your own rights, you have no one to blame but yourself.

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OOC: I was on holiday :laugh4:

Iakovos cradles his head in his hands.

"Grandmaster, please with all due respect, do not stoop to their level, because I will not. I would prefer it if the inflammatory statements stop, they are counterproductive and they do nothing to actually solve our dilemma."

Iakovos pulls out a paper.

I think it would help everyone if we started assigning units to the armies, with balance and practicality in mind.

These are the current Senators who require/have armies, and current numbers and relative strengths of each unit.

Emperor Aleksios Komnenos - Spear Militia, four regiments with respective strengths of 101, 112, 63, and 56 men each; 3 regiments of Skythikon with 1 regiment at 56 and the other 2 at 60; A single regiment of Trebizond Archers at 53 men.

Makedonios Ksanthopoulos - One regiment of the following - Byzantine Spearmen, 97 men; Trebizond Archers, 90 men; Turkopoles, 57 men; Peasant Archers, 90 men.

Armatos ek Naksou - One regiment of Spear Militia, 112 men.

Ioannis Kalameteros - Spear Militia, 3 regiments, each at 67, 55, and 77 men respectively; 2 regiments of Byzantine Spearmen, each at 46 and 37 respectively; 1 regiment of Town Watch, at 49 men; 6 regiments of Skythikon, each at 41, 36, 38, 47, 26, and 27 men respectively; 1 regiment of Armenian Archers, at 87 men; 1 regiment of Trebizond Archers at 73 men.

Markianos Ampelas - 4 regiments of Spear Militia, 3 at 112 men and one at 108 men; 5 regiments of Skythikon, each at 50, 33, 59, 57, and 57 respectively; 1 regiment of Armenian Cavalry, with 59 men; 1 regiment of Turkomans, at 46 men; 1 regiment of Armenian Archers, at 89 men; 1 regiment of Mercenarty Crossbowmen, at 90 men; 1 regiment of Trebizond Archers, at 83 men; 1 regiment of Byzantine Spearmen, at 99 men.

Zigavinos Vasilakios - Is currently with Ioannis Kalameteros.

Caesar Ioannis Komnenos - 1 regiment of Alan Light Cavalry, 60 men; 2 units of Turkomans, each at 60 men. The following units are in Trebizond at the moment, although I believe they are a part of the Caesars Royal Army; 2 regiments of Byzantine Spearmen, one at 112 men and the other at 60 men; 2 regiments of Trebizond Archers, one at 67 men and the other at 70 men; 2 regiments of Mercenary Saracens, both at 90 men; 1 regiment of Alan Light Cavalry, at 60 men; 1 regiment of Peasant Archers, at 90 men.

As previously stated, there is 9 available regiments to give to the Order. I think, that with 1 or 2 regiments from at least 1 other army, and the Order will have enough men to begin credibly defending the Levant and Adana.

Iakovos stands, his gaze determined and his speech strong and steady. "Senators, we each have a stake in each other, whether you wish to recognize it or not. If one part falls, then the others will begin to follow. So, in the interests of the Empire and yourselves, let us try to work this out."

Savvas nods in approval.

Senator Iakovos ek Kallipoleos may be young, but at least he offers real solutions.

I have heard quite enough!

First, I was outraged, truly outraged and very outraged at what happened at Iconium and in no way removed Hypatios because he became "politically inconvenient". Quite frankly, Hypatios was very convenient and a useful man, but one I refused to work with because I was outraged.

Nor was he expelled from Asteri for breaking the law, as anyone who had the simple decency to listen to what I said at the time might remember, but for the gross disservice he did to the House in doing so and for betraying our trust.

Second, although the Grandmaster makes it difficult to agree with him by resorting to childishly sarcastic remarks in lieu of actual debate, I do understand and share some of his fears, even if, as he so flatteringly reminds this House, I voted for the Caesar.

Can we perhaps agree to send a formal warning to this Megas Logothetes that his actions are not worthy of the office he occupies and that we will be watching him closely for the rest of the term. That way this incident will not be blown out of proportion nor be belittled by either side for their petty political clamoring, of which, quite frankly, I grow very tired.

It seems no one stops with the political obfuscation until their egos are threatened. While I will refrain from that form of speech for now, I will reserve the use of it if it gets through to people when lives are on the line.

I am absolutley embarrassed to see such blatant political manuavering these days. There are many of you who are manuavering behind the scenes for your own benefit. You hitched your cart to the Caesar and now he is not pulling you where you want to go. Do not take your anger out on me for shedding light on this issue.

As to Iakovos's list, it is a little optimistic. Let's look at it:

Quote:

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At Belgrade - We have 1 Regiment of Trebizond Archers, with 64 men, 3 regiments of Byzantine Spearmen at 103, 93, and 81 men.

At Constantinople - 5 regiments of Spear Militia all at 112 men, although only one is available for use, all other being on garrison duty.

At Dardanellia - 2 regiments of Dismounted Byzantine Lancers at 90 men each.

At Nicaea - 3 regiments of Spear Militia each at 112 men, although we should keep at least one there. It also has Ballista artillery with 30 men.

At Cyrpus - 3 regiments of Peasants at 112 men each, although one should be enough to maintain civil order.

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Belgrade should be stricken. Those units are legally locked in and Anastatios needs to appear or retire before we can get them.

The peasants on Cyprus are already slated for my army to bring it up to bare minimum standards.

So, that leaves 1 militia regiment at Constantinople, a couple in Nicaea, and the Lancers in Dardanellia.

It would actually be faster to recruit all of that in the Levant. Well, except for the Lancers. But Antioch can recruit spear militia. And Nicosia can recruit peasant archers and spearmen. That means we just need one cavalry unit and Armatos's army is built.

Here is what a propose. Transfer the 2 peasants in Nicosia to my army to make it legal. Recruit 3 spear milita in Antioch. (I know Iakovos mentioned Armatos has one but that has to stay in the city to protect it.) Recruit the 2 archers in Nicosia and transfer them over. Throw in a cavalry unit from somewhere and Artmatos has his army in one year, maybe two. We have the money.

We need that army yesterday. Walking regiments for decades that we can build in the Levant is not an option. Because the enemy won't sit and wait for our units to march hundreds of miles over.

As for the Caesar, impeach him and put someone in who won't violate the Constitution. We need to set a clear precedent. If a Megas violates the Constitution, his term needs to end immediately. We can't afford to keep Megas's around who violate the Rules. Too much is at stake.

How is that for a real solution?

My master, Strator Efstathios, proposes that IF Megas Logothetes have violated the law then it should be easier to impeach him. If the Megas is just incompetent then there is nothing more we can do than just blame those who voted for him..

A young, healthy-looking man opens the door to the Magnaura, and discreetly closes it. It is quickly apparent through the look on his face that he is somewhat shy and hesitant in his manner. Which explains why he hurriedly goes to an empty seat near some unaligned Senators. He has a large number of scrolls under his arms, and immediately starts to read them. Once there is a lull in the chamber, he looks up, and stands to speak with a determined yet quiet voice:
"Senators, I wish to make my arrival here clear: my name is Nikiphoros Manouelitis, and I am the adopted son of the Comes Kosmas Mavrozomis. I am remaining in Constantinople for the year 1113, but I will move to another city next year. Thank you for listening, and forgive me if I bothered you..."
He sits down, and turns back to the scrolls.

Savvas stands up and nods to the newcomer.

Welcome, Senator Nikiphoros Manouelitis. Please don't get frightened if things get nasty in here.

Allthough the constant bickering between the Senators might suggest otherwise, we are all colleagues acting for the same purpose: the overall good of the Empire and the Royal Family.

If you have any questions or if you are in need of some advice, feel free to say so in here or, if you require some discretion, feel free to drop a note at my scribes' desk.

And if you want to get something of your chest, never hesitate to speak out your thoughts loudly.

I am sure you will make your esteemed father proud.

Savvas raises a goblet of wine towards Nikiphoros.

A toast to our newest member.

Savvas empties the goblet...

*Lisas joins the toast, raises his goblet and looks directly at Nikiphoros Manouelitis*

The comes ek Miltou is right, although I would hasten to add that some senetors enjoy all the red tape and legal stuff more than keeping the spirit of the law. Try not to let them annoy you or tie you down and I am sure you will make your father proud.

Ioaanis Kantakouzinos also raises his wine glass and says.

"Welcome, Senator Nikiphoros Manouelitis! Fresh blood is always good for the senate."

Welcome Nikiphoros Manouelitis, I hope you brought your armor with you. Don't take it personally when some in here profess to be your ally today and then say horrible nasty things about you tomorrow. It's just how some in here try to influence politics.

Kantakouzinos takes another sip from his wine and comments on the words of Makedonias to Nikiphoros Manouelitis.

"Also remember that devil has the tendency to talk and act like an angel. At least until he reveals his true intentions. Sweet and innocent sounding talk can drip poison, while harsh talk usually means what it says."

For once I agree with you. My talk has been considered harsh by some but at least with me, you always know where you stand.

Savvas raises from his seat and starts talking, his voice full of sarcasm.

Oh, there are quite some interesting personalities in this place.

You have this very religious guy over there (points at the Grandmaster) who pretend to be on higher moral grounds then the rest of us, who leads an ascetic life, devoted to God, who behaves himself as the guardian of law order and civilisation. But once he leaves this building, he falls asleep while the army under his command slaughters thousands and thousands of innocent women and children.

Aleksios chuckles quietly to himself.