Civil War in Libya

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08-29-2011, 14:22
Adrian II

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragony

Why should we break any cycles, let them figure it out themselves.

Because they're sitting on top of 3/4 of the world's oil, a huge pile of weapons and a demographic timebomb?

AII
08-29-2011, 16:35
Seamus Fermanagh

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian II

Because they're sitting on top of 3/4 of the world's oil, a huge pile of weapons and a demographic timebomb?

AII

Ain't that the truth. There they are, mired in dictatorial warlordism -- possibly the most perniciously difficult thing to change of all -- and we are virtually condemned to helping them deal with it. Catch 22 writ large.
08-29-2011, 17:05
Centurion1

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoreTore

I believe you just ignored south america, pape....

Have you ever been to South America. Even Brazil its most promising nation is still not somewhere i would trade living in the west for. South America is populated by tinpot dictators and corruption runs rampant in every government there.
08-29-2011, 17:07
Centurion1

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papewaio

The third one is the only one I directly mentioned.

Turkey, Indonesia & Malaysia... of course the last two have to explain the conundrum of Singapore their neighbour.

The other side of the trend is that most of the successful Non-European democracies are ex-British colonies...

BTW
Australia would be considered both Western and Asian depending on how one slices the data. I'd say 2/3rds to 3/4trs Western but the region we are in has a massive impact on uptake of immigrants and food.

East Asian with American Influencers tend to do well to.

Japan, South Korea.

I'm beginning to see a trend here.
08-29-2011, 17:14
Fragony

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian II

Because they're sitting on top of 3/4 of the world's oil, a huge pile of weapons and a demographic timebomb?

AII

We are the ones with the cards, they just get to play with them. There isn't anything we can't take by force, not that we should but we can, as this disgusting war in Libya has shown. In the end they are nothing.
08-29-2011, 17:18
Strike For The South

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian II

Because they're sitting on top of 3/4 of the world's oil, a huge pile of weapons and a demographic timebomb?

AII

I like those odds
08-29-2011, 20:28
Adrian II

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I like those odds

You'd better :mellow:

AII
08-30-2011, 02:07
Noncommunist

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centurion1

Have you ever been to South America. Even Brazil its most promising nation is still not somewhere i would trade living in the west for. South America is populated by tinpot dictators and corruption runs rampant in every government there.

While some countries in South America like Venezuela, Ecuador, and Bolivia are certainly leaning towards dictatorship, all of South America is some sort of democracy, just weaker in some places.
08-30-2011, 04:32
Papewaio

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian II

Because they're sitting on top of 3/4 of the world's oil, a huge pile of weapons and a demographic timebomb?

AII

So we have 2 sets of solutions and some synergy.

Get off our oil addiction. Its a simple choice increase solar, tidal, wind and for base load nuclear and then use EVs rather then subsidising dictators. We should not be using food for petrol substitutes... maybe for machine lubrication and pharmaceutical substitution.

Help the youth in these countries get skills to get jobs. It will either diffuse the timebomb/get them ready for a oil independent economy or give them the skill set to fight for democracy themselves without leaving a bitter oily residue in their mouths about the west.

I think the first set has to be done, otherwise we will never have the willpower to front these regimes. In the end of the day our habits in oil and drugs are what are doing a lot of the damage in third world countries. As far as drugs are concerned treat addicts as well addicts, make it a health sector issue first and foremost. Any crimes that drug users comit make them face the full force of the law, without the benefit of 'I was under the influence'.

We kick out habits, we kick out the dictators. No need to invade, or prop them up. Help the people and one day those communities will be happy to trade with us.
08-30-2011, 04:34
Centurion1

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papewaio

So we have 2 sets of solutions and some synergy.

Get off our oil addiction. Its a simple choice increase solar, tidal, wind and for base load nuclear and then use EVs rather then subsidising dictators. We should not be using food for petrol substitutes... maybe for machine lubrication and pharmaceutical substitution.

Help the youth in these countries get skills to get jobs. It will either diffuse the timebomb/get them ready for a oil independent economy or give them the skill set to fight for democracy themselves without leaving a bitter oily residue in their mouths about the west.

I think the first set has to be done, otherwise we will never have the willpower to front these regimes. In the end of the day our habits in oil and drugs are what are doing a lot of the damage in third world countries. As far as drugs are concerned treat addicts as well addicts, make it a health sector issue first and foremost. Any crimes that drug users comit make them face the full force of the law, without the benefit of 'I was under the influence'.

We kick out habits, we kick out the dictators. No need to invade, or prop them up. Help the people and one day those communities will be happy to trade with us.

you know what is guaranteed to eventually work. buy their oil and otherwise ignore them no matter what they are doing
08-30-2011, 04:48
a completely inoffensive name

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centurion1

you know what is guaranteed to eventually work. buy their oil and otherwise ignore them no matter what they are doing

Yeah, people should have just ignored 9/11, it only gave the terrorists the attention they wanted.
08-30-2011, 07:34
Adrian II

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Yeah, people should have just ignored 9/11, it only gave the terrorists the attention they wanted.

After all it was just a cry for attention because they were out of a job. :wink3:

AII
08-30-2011, 07:40
Banquo's Ghost

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papewaio

Get off our oil addiction. Its a simple choice increase solar, tidal, wind and for base load nuclear and then use EVs rather then subsidising dictators. We should not be using food for petrol substitutes... maybe for machine lubrication and pharmaceutical substitution.

It's very hard to know why we aren't doing this with all vigour. It would also create a lot of new jobs and industry at home. Just a big effort towards energy efficiency would make a huge difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papewaio

Help the youth in these countries get skills to get jobs. It will either diffuse the timebomb/get them ready for a oil independent economy or give them the skill set to fight for democracy themselves without leaving a bitter oily residue in their mouths about the west.

Much more difficult. This is just another form of economic imperialism. Any failure immediately becomes our fault. No, let them sort out their own employment problems - by all means be a trading partner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centurion1

you know what is guaranteed to eventually work. buy their oil and otherwise ignore them no matter what they are doing

Quite a bizarre position. How do you ignore them when they turn the oil off - or even down? Our oil dependent economies are already in a deeply fragile state and we have been begging the Saudis on our knees for the last couple of years to keep the taps on full. How do you ignore someone who has you by the danglies?
08-30-2011, 07:56
Adrian II

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

This is just another form of economic imperialism. Any failure immediately becomes our fault. No, let them sort out their own employment problems - by all means be a trading partner.

Any western employment scheme for Arabs would be disastrous, not because we would be wrongfully blamed for failure, but because it would be a failure and we would be to blame. Western companies and bureaucracies have a horrible track-record in the Arab world already and the possibilities for fraud in such a scheme would be enormous, comparable to those of, say, the carbon emission trade or the niche for western contractors in warzones.

I mean, just look at our bankers these days. You think they wouldn't find a way to funnel those job scheme millions to the Bahama's before you can say 'job'?

AII
08-30-2011, 14:20
Banquo's Ghost

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian II

Any western employment scheme for Arabs would be disastrous, not because we would be wrongfully blamed for failure, but because it would be a failure and we would be to blame. Western companies and bureaucracies have a horrible track-record in the Arab world already and the possibilities for fraud in such a scheme would be enormous, comparable to those of, say, the carbon emission trade or the niche for western contractors in warzones.

I mean, just look at our bankers these days. You think they wouldn't find a way to funnel those job scheme millions to the Bahama's before you can say 'job'?

AII

Yes, you phrased the sentiment better than I, but just so. :bow:
08-30-2011, 14:49
Papewaio

Re: Civil War in Libya

I didn't say give them jobs. I said give them skills to get jobs. Nuance gentleman :7madhatter:, nuance.

For example Ron Bruder and his Education For Employment

I think that counts as a viable proof of concept. :coffeenews:
08-30-2011, 15:32
gaelic cowboy

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

It's very hard to know why we aren't doing this with all vigour. It would also create a lot of new jobs and industry at home. Just a big effort towards energy efficiency would make a huge difference.

It's because were spoiled Banquo.

I don't know if many people on the org really really really know just how wonderful a product petroleum is.

Basically it is a gift that we will take a long time to get back once we have used over 50% of it.

Quote:

Much more difficult. This is just another form of economic imperialism. Any failure immediately becomes our fault. No, let them sort out their own employment problems - by all means be a trading partner.

There are masses of unemployed graduates in the Maghreb and Mid East they will be fine. I don't doubt a little bit more freedom will go a long way to sorting there problems out (eventually).

Quote:

Quite a bizarre position. How do you ignore them when they turn the oil off - or even down? Our oil dependent economies are already in a deeply fragile state and we have been begging the Saudis on our knees for the last couple of years to keep the taps on full. How do you ignore someone who has you by the danglies?

hmm how do you ignore someone who has you by the unmentionables

Two answers here

1 You don't ignore them and hope they let go.
2 you do ignore them but your eyes will water
08-30-2011, 21:35
a completely inoffensive name

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

It's because were spoiled Banquo.

I don't know if many people on the org really really really know just how wonderful a product petroleum is.

Petroleum is our life. Petroleum derived plastics cover all our electronics and make up all of our childrens toys, petroleum derived fertilizers feed our entire country, petroleum gets us from place to place. It is the western lifestyle.
08-31-2011, 08:24
Ironside

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Petroleum is our life. Petroleum derived plastics cover all our electronics and make up all of our childrens toys, petroleum derived fertilizers feed our entire country, petroleum gets us from place to place. It is the western lifestyle.

With a suffiecent alternate energy source, you can create enough petroleum to use for plastics etc. The problem is that's quite energy intence, so you'll need a big energy source.
08-31-2011, 08:30
a completely inoffensive name

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironside

With a suffiecent alternate energy source, you can create enough petroleum to use for plastics etc. The problem is that's quite energy intence, so you'll need a big energy source.

Only energy source that fits the bill is fusion and there are no guarantees from ITER...
08-31-2011, 09:01
Fragony

Re: Civil War in Libya

Geez only 50.000 dead estimated, I feel so proud about my country having a hand in 'the liberation of the Lybians'.
08-31-2011, 09:49
Major Robert Dump

Re: Civil War in Libya

Maybe with a friendly regime giving us good prices on oil the cost of Vaseline will go down
08-31-2011, 10:00
rory_20_uk

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragony

Geez only 50.000 dead estimated, I feel so proud about my country having a hand in 'the liberation of the Lybians'.

It ain't over. The only thing that unified the opposition was getting Gadaffi out. Now, who gets what?

~:smoking:
08-31-2011, 10:14
Fragony

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

It ain't over. The only thing that unified the opposition was getting Gadaffi out. Now, who gets what?

~:smoking:

Oh yeah, fun times ahead, tribes tend to dislike sharing it's going to be a nightmare. Ghadaffi is scum, but everybody is scum over there, and they are now all armed to the teeth. Enjoy
08-31-2011, 10:43
rory_20_uk

Re: Civil War in Libya

God put the Med there to keep them a nice long way from Europe. He even added another body of water to keep the UK away from Europe.

Good luck the AU and the Arab league. You're going to need it.

~:smoking:
08-31-2011, 15:53
Viking

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragony

Geez only 50.000 dead estimated, I feel so proud about my country having a hand in 'the liberation of the Lybians'.

What about the liberation from the Nazis.
08-31-2011, 16:09
Seamus Fermanagh

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Maybe with a friendly regime giving us good prices on oil the cost of Vaseline will go down

Making it easier for all of us to be....

On second thought, I will just let that rest.
08-31-2011, 21:55
Fragony

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viking

What about the liberation from the Nazis.

What about it. Hope they make the best out of these 2 or 3 months of peace
09-01-2011, 00:16
Noncommunist

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragony

Geez only 50.000 dead estimated, I feel so proud about my country having a hand in 'the liberation of the Lybians'.

Where are you getting the 50,000 number? The last I read it was at was about 13,000 or so.
09-01-2011, 00:51
HoreTore

Re: Civil War in Libya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noncommunist

Where are you getting the 50,000 number? The last I read it was at was about 13,000 or so.

All sorts of numbers are flying around. None of them are trustworthy.

It'll take at the very least half a year before we have reliable numbers. Probably more.

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